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2020 PRS Finale info

I completely
lowlight said:
What people dont' realize is,

Talking money, how much does stuff cost, it limits participation. If all the discussions around shooting a Match all involve the money you'll spend or the money you should have spent upfront, you'll turn people off.

You take the cost out of the equation, then people won't know what they don't know, if a guy shows up with a $600 rifle with a $300 scope, great, entertain him and he will stick around, probably spend the money too. But if you start out telling him you have to spend $2500 on the lower class to get into the game, he'll walk away.

The discourage people from the start by how they describe everything
[/QUOT
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this statment! I began three years ago with local matches. I read what the requirements were to shoot the "newbie" class and found that the club went off of the PRS Production class. I took the $ limit as what's the max I could spend knowing full well that I wasn't going to buy gear that was capped. Fortunelty the local club that I participate in was very accomidating to new shooters and not an "elitest" club. Had it been typical PRS mathes with sponsered team shooters I would've been discouraged after one or two matches simply bc the difference not only skill but also gear which would have been frustrating to overcome.
 
lowlight said:
604 let that number sink in ... 604

NRL and PRS combined had 604 shooters shot the required 3 matches to get a season scores.
Here is the post - https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10224835746621109&set=pcb.1940921849380335
Click to expand...


Hi,

So combining both organizations only 604 shooters competed in enough matches to be ranked at the end of the year?
Wonder how many of those 604 shooters were counted in both organizations numbers for season scores...

1609781560589.png


Sincerely,
Theis
 
lowlight said:
604 let that number sink in ... 604

NRL and PRS combined had 604 shooters shot the required 3 matches to get a season scores.
Click to expand...

It's not a big pool of shooters who chase national 2 day matches, even smaller if you look at those who are moderately competitive. There are only about 230 guys in the country who average a score of 80% (of winner) or better, which is roughly equivalent to a 20-40th place finish at one of those matches.

The two day stuff is fun and has it's place, and I think the PRS/NRL are a good structure for those few who are serious about matches to chase their season bragging rights. Ultimately though it's good to keep perspective that this all is just for fun and the club matches are where the bulk of this sport takes place. Tons more shooters out there are participating in club matches which can be equally as competitive depending on who shows up.

The average shooter should just show up and participate in club matches, they are the easiest to do and don't require any membership to get started in. If someone wants to be Type A competitive and pay a fee to have their scores tracked for regional/national standings, they've got that option.
 
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Sheldon N said:
It's not a big pool of shooters who chase national 2 day matches, even smaller if you look at those who are moderately competitive. There are only about 230 guys in the country who average a score of 80% (of winner) or better, which is roughly equivalent to a 20-40th place finish at one of those matches.
Click to expand...

Unless you shoot at K&M - in which case 114th place gets 80% ;)

precisionrifleseries.com

Precision Rifle Series - K&M KAHLES PRECISION RIFLE COMPETITI...

The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.
precisionrifleseries.com
 
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What percentage of golfers that participate in weekend scrambles take part in the PGA tour?
 
lowlight said:
Golf is giantic

Same with Archery look up their participation numbers

Pathetic trying to spin it, PRS = PGA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Click to expand...

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of ANALOGY

a comparison of two otherwise unlike things based on resemblance of a particular aspect; resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : similarity… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com
 
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You should see how it's organized it's completely different

The PGA tour like you are trying to analogize is limited to 50 players, they have other "series' which they call tours that are similar but they are divided up by regions, etc

It's APPLES And ORANGES the organization are different,

Consisting of nearly 29,000 men and women members, the PGA of America's undertaking is to establish and elevate the standards of the profession and to grow interested and participation in the game of golf.

The PGA Tour is more like the AG Cup, a pre-limited event
 
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Mordamer said:
What percentage of golfers that participate in weekend scrambles take part in the PGA tour?
Click to expand...

Hi,

But PGA has a very specific and lined out requirements to meet in order to even apply for your Tour Card.
They have "Training" Institutions and lined out schools that must be accomplished too.
You cannot just show up and play on the PGA Tour.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
THEIS said:
Hi,

But PGA has a very specific and lined out requirements to meet in order to even apply for your Tour Card.
They have "Training" Institutions and lined out schools that must be accomplished too.
You cannot just show up and play on the PGA Tour.

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...

Of course the analogy has flaws. There are also similarities. Take any sport and find the percentage that plays pro vs the percentage that plays recreationally. That's the point of my analogy. Nothing more.
 
LOL

I participate I just pick and choose where ... plus I played the game more than you ever did

Not to mention, but these events don't define me like they do you all ... I have history that goes beyond a match

and I still host a Match dickhead how is that not PARTICIPATION LOL


Why dont you leave then the PRS has a forum now
 
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It's crazy the guys who hate all I do who insist on lingering around here.

IMG_0513.JPG


I choose to vote with my wallet and not support an organization who's most important milestone is the number of disgruntled participants they have created

How many series do we have today of people who took their participation somewhere else ?
 
lowlight said:
LOL

I participate I just pick and choose where ... plus I played the game more than you ever did

Not to mention, but these events don't define me like they do you all ... I have history that goes beyond a match

and I still host a Match dickhead how is that not PARTICIPATION LOL


Why dont you leave then the PRS has a forum now
Click to expand...

Frank,

I am not even sure what we are arguing about to be honest. I have nothing against you and nothing against the PRS. I shoot at the Raton Sporting Rifle match several times a year and I think you also go shoot there sometimes. I would love to meet you there and squad with you sometime this year. I can assure you we'd have a lot of fun. There would be no drama but plenty of crap talking.

I don't know how topics like this put us at each other's throats but I don't like it.

Thanks,
Austin Buschman
 
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Mordamer said:
And here is someone who doesn't participate but loves to stand on the sidelines and talk crap.
Click to expand...

This is a straw man argument.

When people don’t like something and choose not to participate (whether they did in the past or never have), you can’t just say “your opinion doesn’t matter because you don’t attend what you don’t agree with.”

That’s the same time of logic the management of both series use anytime someone doesn’t agree with what they do. Instead of taking a look at the reasons why there is less than 2500 shooters on a national and regional level combined, they use straw man arguments in an attempt to invalidate their opinion/complaint.

Ironically, the 2019 PRS finale broadcast the keynote speaker taking about a rising tide raises all ships.....etc etc. Only for PRS management to continue to use strong arm tactics.
 
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Mordamer said:
Of course the analogy has flaws. There are also similarities. Take any sport and find the percentage that plays pro vs the percentage that plays recreationally. That's the point of my analogy. Nothing more.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I understand that concept of it.

How many professional PRS (In any series) are there? And by professional I am referring to doing it for their livelihood.

Big difference in attempting to compare sports that have a legit professional tier to a sport that is pretty much all recreational competitors.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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And, it’s always guys at the top that come running in defense. Because for them, it’s a great experience (and I don’t blame them one bit).

The two current organizations put the top shooters as their priority. As well as sponsors. Top shooters are usually sponsored, so it goes hand in hand.

This business model *only* works when you have a very large mountain or pyramid. Meaning you have a huge base of either A: lower level participants and/or B: spectators.

These organizations have neither. Focusing on the top is the way to drastically slow your growth.

The average shooter should be the absolute focus of any organizations. They should be protected and incentivized. Not just an after thought that gets dragged along for the ride.

Focusing on the top and saying things like “it’s a two day match and only the top shooters should be there. Anyone else should know this.” Is cart before the horse.

You need to build into the hundreds of thousands before you look at the top.
 
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THIS ^^^^^^^

This is my problem, I have been shooting matches since 2001, the SH Cup is the longest uninterrupted event I know of, Rifles Only events have been happening longer but the names have changed. The SHC has only changed location and hosts but has continued every year since 2003.

I look at the complaints and how they are addressed, they are addressed by attacking the messenger, the message remains unchanged.

The cliques hurt this, which is a focus on the top just like stated. I saw it living color when I shot the Surefire event in CA and they put a giant focus on Team GAP vs Team Surgeon. They pushed everyone out of the way to focus on these two teams. People were not happy and I saw that it cemented my position. I say knowing full well I was put in a different squad and used my influence to get moved to the Team Gap squad. I tend to see things from the inside and those who hate what I have to say see it from the outside.

The outside is shielded from a lot of this, message control is a big focus. That is why the PRS keeps logging on here and reading this stuff and disappearing. They never once addressed this stuff beyond trying to tell me to stop talking about it. They even created their own forum to control the message. They were offered access for years, always said no because they understand this is not meant to support you, but to support them.
 
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If you want to compare to any sport out there.....let’s take the PGA since it was brought up.

They PGA didn’t just appear and start putting on pro golf events and then trickle down. Golf had grass roots movements and a massive amount of participation *first.*

You don’t “grow the sport” from the top down. It’s literally never happened.....
 
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Dthomas3523 said:
And, it’s always guys at the top that come running in defense. Because for them, it’s a great experience (and I don’t blame them one bit).

The two current organizations put the top shooters as their priority. As well as sponsors. Top shooters are usually sponsored, so it goes hand in hand.

This business model *only* works when you have a very large mountain or pyramid. Meaning you have a huge base of either A: lower level participants and/or B: spectators.

These organizations have neither. Focusing on the top is the way to drastically slow your growth.

The average shooter should be the absolute focus of any organizations. They should be protected and incentivized. Not just an after thought that gets dragged along for the ride.

Focusing on the top and saying things like “it’s a two day match and only the top shooters should be there. Anyone else should know this.” Is cart before the horse.

You need to build into the hundreds of thousands before you look at the top.
Click to expand...


100% agree.

what Would you do to focus on the average shooter? I think it’s an interesting conversation.
 
Just 2¢ from a total novice who has RO’d and shot 2 local club PRS matches.
I also have no idea of the context in which this thread is referring to on personal levels. I’m just talking about possible areas of growing the shooting sports.

Location- this is the complicated one because only certain places can host a match with enough participants to make it worth it. Especially with some of the distances involved in a match. However if this sport is to grow a solid following and foundation then access to ranges and conveniently located for participants.

Matches-most clubs have a solid monthly match in locations and do an excellent job of communicating other matches within a couple of hours drive. PRS/NRL, and other factions of similar style matches, need to help local MD’s hold 2 matches a month. One for the hardcore participants who are intermediate-to-advanced that are the regulars at monthly matches. The second for newb-to-amateur Shooters that can be less stages, basic/fundamental stages, more time, more rounds on target, just to name some variations.
These are just ideas and can be tweaked to the needs of the local participants.

Accountability- same problem as majority of things these days. You want it to be fun and exciting for everyone, great! However if this is going to be a longevity and nationally recognized sport then everyone that plays need to be on the same page with the same rules. If you pay the membership fee to have your score tracked, then every match you attend the MD or a rep signs a form that states your equipment meets the definition of said class you are shooting in, and I do think for production class that factory ammo should be the only thing allowed as this would give the newb and amateur confidence in being competitive with other newb/amateurs. When you have and enforce a standard, whatever that may be, it shows commitment to the seriousness and organization the sport is to become.
That’s my take at least, let the roasting of this idiot commence…
 
Mordamer said:
Of course the analogy has flaws. There are also similarities. Take any sport and find the percentage that plays pro vs the percentage that plays recreationally. That's the point of my analogy. Nothing more.
Click to expand...

By the real definition, PRS/NRL, doesn't have any "pro's". I'm not aware of anyone that makes a living strictly by shooting PRS matches.

A better analogy would be Dungeons & Dragons. Some people just play it for fun on the weekends, others may play in multiple tournaments and win some money in their nerdy hobby and take it to a more serious level.

I just looked up some dungeon and dragon tournament stats, apparently 200 teams comprised of 5 members (total of 1,000 people), play in these tournaments. That's almost double the amount of these PRS "pro's" :oops:
 
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kthomas said:
By the real definition, PRS/NRL, doesn't have any "pro's". I'm not aware of anyone that makes a living strictly by shooting PRS matches.

A better analogy would be Dungeons & Dragons. Some people just play it for fun on the weekends, others may play in multiple tournaments and win some money in their nerdy hobby and take it to a more serious level.

I just looked up some dungeon and dragon tournament stats, apparently 200 teams comprised of 5 members (total of 1,000 people), play in these tournaments. That's almost double the amount of these PRS "pro's" :oops:
Click to expand...
Shhh PRS is serious!
 
kthomas said:
By the real definition, PRS/NRL, doesn't have any "pro's". I'm not aware of anyone that makes a living strictly by shooting PRS matches.

A better analogy would be Dungeons & Dragons. Some people just play it for fun on the weekends, others may play in multiple tournaments and win some money in their nerdy hobby and take it to a more serious level.

I just looked up some dungeon and dragon tournament stats, apparently 200 teams comprised of 5 members (total of 1,000 people), play in these tournaments. That's almost double the amount of these PRS "pro's" :oops:
Click to expand...

I guess that depends. Doug Koenig is absolutely a professional shooter, though he shoots more than just PRS for his paycheck. There are others who's livelihood revolves around the shooting sports, though they may not be paid specifically, or solely, to shoot. Scott Satterlee undoubtedly makes a portion of his living as an ambassador for Savage and MDT, and that includes shooting matches with their products.

Put another way, in many parts of the horse business, you are considered a "pro" if you teach lessons for pay, train horses for pay, or compete in the show ring for pay. The idea being that it's bad business to have professional horse trainers competing against amateurs (who write the checks that keep the industry running).

Under that context (if for example you make your living teaching people to shoot, you're a professional shooter) there are plenty of guys shooting PRS who would count as "pro." Though obviously not everyone (or even most people) winning 2-day matches or wearing jerseys fits that description.

Regardless of whether or not some of these guys are professionals, I doubt PRS sees any financial incentive to make sorting pros from true amateurs a priority.

The lifeblood of the hobby/sport/whatever of "precision rifle competition" is currently club matches anyways, not the PRS pro series or NRL.

And It's worth pointing out, many of the more recognizable upper level shooters (many of whom are not making a living shooting) are working as match directors for club series instead of shooting them, because they want to promote precision rifle, and to help beginners learn and grow into better shooters. So they likely earn quite a bit of good will amongst those who actually attend club matches (as opposed to bitching on the internet), whether they compete together at a 2-day or not.
 
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