What would you say the effective range is for killing an elk with a 180 grain 300wm, 400 yards ?
how about a 210 grain?
trying to learn and under stand grains
how about a 210 grain?
trying to learn and under stand grains
- Thread starter fadetoblack188
- Start date
Grains is a unit for weight measurement. Not much more too understand about it. More grains means its heavier.
Either bullet will kill an Elk for a long ways if you hit them in the right place.
Either bullet will kill an Elk for a long ways if you hit them in the right place.
I understand it’s weight. But what I don’t understand is how to determine what grain is good for what yardage
Hi,
The "grain" has significantly less to do with "yardage" than bullet placement.
Let me ask this...
What is the farthest you have shot targets at?
Sincerely,
Theis
That’s because there is no grain for yardage rule.
Generally the heavier the bullet for a given caliber the more it will carry its momentum at distance. F=m*a
But if it’s not an aerodynamic bullet that weight may not translate into long range performance. So... it depends.
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www.federalpremium.com this (in 300 wsm) is what i used to take a big cow and a small bull elk last october, at 200 and 400 yards.
look at the ballistics for a variety of hunting bullets and see at what distances their energy drops to below 1500 ft-lbs. but again bullet type and shot placement are key. that said, anything in the 180-210 range will kill elk out to 500yds, and more in the right hands.
Regardless of the weight of bullet you use, you better be confident at the yardage your taking the shot. You must also know what your rifle and load shoots at the elevation, temp, etc. you will be hunting at. If you will be hiking, you should also practice at distance when you are under heavy fatigue because you may have to shoot under that condition. You owe it to the animal.
bullet weight isn't the only consideration.
Bullet construction, bullet type, sectional density, velocity, accuracy and shot placement all play a key role.
A well constructed 150 grain bullet will kill an elk at that distance. A well constructed 190 grain bullet will kill elk at that distance.
A flat base, round nose bullet is a poor choice for shooting 400 yards, but a skilled marksman can certainly make it work.
The Nosler accubond longrange bullet would be an excellent choice.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, if you are asking this question, in this fashion, you likely should NOT be taking a 400 yard shot on a game animal.
Hi,
And no other replies needed!!
Read some of his other posts about seeking MV from other people because he doesn't have access to chronograph. As if MVs are universal enough to use for any distance shooting.
Sincerely,
Theis
your right.. today. But what’s to say in 5-10 years I can’t be? Have to start somewhere right? Just want to see my rifle and load capabilities.
You guys make me laugh like you didn’t start somewhere. No one said I was going out tomorrow to take a shot on an animal. I am just starting to get into this. I am trying to learn as much as I can. All I am trying to do is see rifle and round capabilities.
I don’t understand why that is an issue to some.
As stated ......grain is a measure of weight. 7000 grains equals 1 pound. Look at a ballistics program, using some velocity data gathered for different weight bullets fired from a 300 WM. This will give you a hint at expected performance from different weigh bullets, bullet drop at different ranges, bullet drift with a cross-wind at various ranges, bullet energy at various ranges, ect. The ballistics programs generally require.....muzzle velocity, bullet weight in grains, and the bullet BC. Once these values are “plugged-in”, you can get a pretty good idea of what to expect from various bullets at various ranges.
If your questions are pertaining to bullet performance on elk.....this opens up a complete new dimension as to your requirements/expectations. There is a multitude of bullet designs available to the hunter. Some cup and core bullets, by their design.....have thin jackets and open violently on impact. If these bullets are properly placed (a high shoulder shot or behind the shoulder) with minimal resistance ( not through bone heavy muscle, ect) .....they can offer a very quick clean kill. Often these bullets are offered with a very high BC, for much improved ballistics for long range shots.The negative with these bullets is that they are pretty fragile....if heavy bone is encountered, or an angled shot is required ( considerable bullet travel through bone, muscle, ect) the bullet may come apart .....and not reach the vitals. As a general statement.....cup and core bullets only have approximately 50% to 65% of their original weight retained after impact. With some of the bullets explicitly designed for long range shooting, when used at close range or encounter heavy bone ...
.there may be very little of the bullet to weigh. When a bullet sheds a high percentage of it’s weight ....penetration is severely limited.
Another school of thought is the use of mono bullets.....solid copper construction. These are required is some states, as they have no lead in them. These bullets do not expand as readily, and retain nearly 100 % of their original weight. These bullets do not “come apart” on heavy bone/muscle, or on a very close range shot.....meaning, they will penetrate much more deeply than will a cup and core bullet. These bullets require a fairly high velocity ( generally in excess of 1700 fps) at impact to achieve good expansion. This somewhat limits the range at which they offer reliable expansion. If you know what your expected maximum shot ranges will be, this is where the ballistics program can be of help.
I am a big proponent of mono bullets, as my ranges may be from several feet to 600 yards (my self-imposed range limit)! With the 300 WM, I would recommend mono’s in the 150 grains to 180 grains range. With cup and core....180 grains to around 215 grains.
This is a pretty user friendly ballistics program to use, and may help answer some of your questions. You should also do a lot of research on various bullet types from different manufacturers! memtb
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/
If your questions are pertaining to bullet performance on elk.....this opens up a complete new dimension as to your requirements/expectations. There is a multitude of bullet designs available to the hunter. Some cup and core bullets, by their design.....have thin jackets and open violently on impact. If these bullets are properly placed (a high shoulder shot or behind the shoulder) with minimal resistance ( not through bone heavy muscle, ect) .....they can offer a very quick clean kill. Often these bullets are offered with a very high BC, for much improved ballistics for long range shots.The negative with these bullets is that they are pretty fragile....if heavy bone is encountered, or an angled shot is required ( considerable bullet travel through bone, muscle, ect) the bullet may come apart .....and not reach the vitals. As a general statement.....cup and core bullets only have approximately 50% to 65% of their original weight retained after impact. With some of the bullets explicitly designed for long range shooting, when used at close range or encounter heavy bone ...
.there may be very little of the bullet to weigh. When a bullet sheds a high percentage of it’s weight ....penetration is severely limited.
Another school of thought is the use of mono bullets.....solid copper construction. These are required is some states, as they have no lead in them. These bullets do not expand as readily, and retain nearly 100 % of their original weight. These bullets do not “come apart” on heavy bone/muscle, or on a very close range shot.....meaning, they will penetrate much more deeply than will a cup and core bullet. These bullets require a fairly high velocity ( generally in excess of 1700 fps) at impact to achieve good expansion. This somewhat limits the range at which they offer reliable expansion. If you know what your expected maximum shot ranges will be, this is where the ballistics program can be of help.
I am a big proponent of mono bullets, as my ranges may be from several feet to 600 yards (my self-imposed range limit)! With the 300 WM, I would recommend mono’s in the 150 grains to 180 grains range. With cup and core....180 grains to around 215 grains.
This is a pretty user friendly ballistics program to use, and may help answer some of your questions. You should also do a lot of research on various bullet types from different manufacturers! memtb
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/
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Don’t get so defensive...
I understand you don’t know what you don’t know, but grain for yardage makes no sense. It’s irrelevant. Most important is shot placement on game, then bullet construction (as I see it).
Because you ask a question, folks try to steer you to the CORRECT question, along with some answers and you refuse to absorb the knowledge.
I hope that I didn’t offend with my post. It was obvious that you are a beginner, and I tried to give as much information as I could, without writing a full-length novel! I wish that I had adult help had the resources available to the novice as available today. The internet is a wealth of knowledge.....if used properly. Our responses are our opions and should be considered as such. Go to bullet manufacturers web sites ( Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, Berger, ect) and learn as much as you can about specific design difference in manufactured bullets. Then try and chose the bullet that will best suit the needs of your particular situation!
When I started, at age 14 ( 54 years ago) without an adult to help, I learned by experience.....some of them bad!
Information was not nearly as accessible as today......take advantage of what is available! memtb
When I started, at age 14 ( 54 years ago) without an adult to help, I learned by experience.....some of them bad!
Information was not nearly as accessible as today......take advantage of what is available! memtb
Buy a good 175-220 gr bullet with a high BC. You'll also be looking for expansion over penetration so most polymer tipped bullets will work. Most of the following should work:
Nosler ballistic tip
Sierra GameKing
Hornady ELD-X or A Tip
Federal Terminal Ascent or Edge TLR
Most of these run anywhere from 2600-3000 fps and will get the job done for you. Other than that it's just whatever you find your gun likes specifically. Hope this helps.
A good bullet choice is important and understanding your ballistics is also important. You can run whatever load you're looking at and project the estimated fps at a certain distance, the speed combined with the weight of the bullet will tell you the energy at that yardage. For me I shoot 220gn eldx at 2850, much faster than most people but in theory would have enough energy to easily drop an elk at 900 yards. I wouldn't trust myself to ethically hit that far but ballistically it could.
Attachments
Think of bullet weight as mass. Assuming equal velocities.....the bullet that retains greater mass will tend to penetrate farther. However, if the bullet doesn’t expand (lets say a full metal jacket), tissue destruction, organ damage, blood-letting will be minimal.....though penetration will be greater. There is always a compromise that must be reached!
Over the years, I had several bad experiences with thin jacket, rapid expansion bullets.... so I will not use them. I want a bullet that will retain a high % of it’s weight, capable of full-length( or nearly so) penetration of an elk.....always an exit on a broad-side shot. I use one bullet for all of my hunting.....from deer/antelope to elk, or moose! Plus, I hunt in a high grizzly population area.....the last thing I want is a point blank confrontation, using a bullet that is incapable of deep penetration! The rapid expansion bullets offer dramatic kills......except when they don’t!
memtb Last edited:
Home - Applied Ballistics
appliedballisticsllc.com Scroll down to the web calculator. Will be easier to play with on a computer. Play with the inputs. If you don't know what one is, research it. It will give you the speed and energy from muzzle out to the distance you choose. Like was said before, look for 1500 ft lbs of energy as a guideline. You don't need that much with a properly placed shot, but you better be really fucking good to be shooting past whatever distance 1500 ft lbs lines up with, as was also already said. Put in different bullet weights and speeds and see the differences. Generally, when you decrease bullet weight in a given caliber, speed will increase, and vice versa. Look up manufacturers speeds for their loaded ammo and ballistic coefficient on their websites.
Does the original poster even hunt at this stage? What is the largest caliber you have shot and whats the furthest target you have ever shot.
I'm just asking to assist you here
I'm just asking to assist you here
Hi,
But you are trying to "make sense" out of something that is completely 100% irrelevant.
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
Was asked earlier and OP skipped over it.
Sincerely,
Theis
I ve been successfully bow hunting 12 years. Never rifle never interested me until a year ago. Just been shooting paper practicing since out to 300 yards
I'd use the 180. Shoots faster and flatter and therefore more likely to hit the target in the target area at whatever distance. And likely less recoil.
Hi,
Statements like that is why the OP is getting the type of replies he is getting...
"The 180" what????
That statement can be both the truth and full out lie!!! It DEPENDS on the bullet itself.
For example:
A 180gr Woodleigh .308 bullet is NOT going to be faster OR flatter than a 180gr Flatline .308 bullet
Sincerely,
Theis
One of the few things that the hunting/shooting world kind of agrees on is that 1500 ft/lbs of energy is a good number for minimum amount of energy needed for elk. Where I live that would be somewhere around 1000-1200 depending on environmental conditions, that's for a 215. The longest shot I've ever taken was 864 and it was extremely effective. The more I practice out to a mile, the more we seem to see elk at 300 yards.
edited: I don't think most people should be shooting elk at 400. Most don't practice ever, most can't handle recoil from a bigger magnum cartridge, and most people are just plain terrible at shooting. Unfortunately we see great examples of this constantly.
edited: I don't think most people should be shooting elk at 400. Most don't practice ever, most can't handle recoil from a bigger magnum cartridge, and most people are just plain terrible at shooting. Unfortunately we see great examples of this constantly.
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So you currently own a 300 Win Mag? Like bow hunting, shot placement is key. Seeing that you are from NY, i dont see many elk waking thru your area.
If this is for a planned hunt, there are plenty of great bullets in the 180-215 weights that would do the job, providing you do yours.
Any modern 180 grain hunting-oriented bullet. The current high BC tipped bullets would be great. All copper is my preference as long as you send them fast enough (so higher powder charge with the coppers). OP needs to practice with whatever is chosen more than "get the bestest awesomest bullet everrrrrr OMG".
Nosler Accubond, Nosler Partition, Swift Scirroco 2, Federal TLR, Barnes LRX and TTSX. All good Elk bullets that I have used. I had great performance on Elk from the 180 Accubonds out of a 300wsm. Closest was 81 yards and furthest was 412 yards. Both 1 shot kills. The 412 yards was a very large cow and the bullet entered at rear of ribcage and shattered the opposite side shoulder and exited.
I have personally been most pleased with the 180 Accubond's. They have replaced the Partitions in my Elk brass. Partitions are still a bullet by which other's are judged, but you have to be mindful of their soft tip. If you accidentally drop your pack in the woods and they are not protected well on the tip, they can get deformed easily, even if inside a plastic ammo container. Don't ask me how I know.
I have personally been most pleased with the 180 Accubond's. They have replaced the Partitions in my Elk brass. Partitions are still a bullet by which other's are judged, but you have to be mindful of their soft tip. If you accidentally drop your pack in the woods and they are not protected well on the tip, they can get deformed easily, even if inside a plastic ammo container. Don't ask me how I know.
No significant reduction in recoil. Is still a 300 win mag.
I'll try to briefly use as close to equivalent bow terms to rifle terms that would probably make more sense to you.
Grain is the equivalent of Grain in archery. It's a unit of mass (layman's term weight).
You can have a lightweight (350-400gr) or heavy (450-500gr) arrows and still ethically harvest animals with good shot placement up to a certain extent. The grain weight will change the trajectory as well as your arrow FOC measurement. This is where velocity of your ammunition, BC (ballistic coefficient) plus environmental factors such as temperature, wind, etc. can affect your shot. Finding the correct arrow spine for your bow is the same as finding the correct bullet for your barrel's twist rate for stability purposes. Not necessarily the most accurate/precise. Your bow may like Eastons more than Gold Tips.
While you can generally say a higher grain arrow and higher grain bullet would punch through bone better, there are a whole bunch of factors start coming into play, such as bullet design which is equivalent to broadhead design. Some broadheads suck at punching through bone, whether you're shooting a lightweight or heavy weight, high FOC, high velocity, the broadhead just straight up suck. This is the equivalent of like using match bullets versus something like a bonded hollow point bullet. The design matters. White tail have bones that are much easier to punch through than say Bear, Elk, Feral Hogs. So choose the proper bullet just like you would choose the best broadhead for whatever animal.
This is why your question is odd. What range you can ethically harvest an animal in bow hunting is the same as rifle hunting, which is determined by your skill level and your knowledge of how to utilize properly selected equipment to accomplish the task.
Faster, flatter... and a teeny bit less recoil. Tgat equals some % of better shot placement. That’s what matters at distance.
At least OP is asking instead of going to the lgs and buying a box of ammo just because there is a picture of an elk on it
You’re asking a question that covers multiple fields of ballistics, internal/external/terminal so there isn’t going to be a one sentence or even one paragraph answer.
This page and site does an ok job combining data in an easy to digest format
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.300+Winchester+Magnum.html
You’re asking a question that covers multiple fields of ballistics, internal/external/terminal so there isn’t going to be a one sentence or even one paragraph answer.
This page and site does an ok job combining data in an easy to digest format
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.300+Winchester+Magnum.html
no one should be ragging on you for asking questions, trying to get better and learn.
look around here and on other hunting websites for good bullets and loads for elk in 300wm. look at federal's website they list ammo by animal. i wouldn't get too caught up on grain/bullet weight, anything in 180-225 will work. people are killing elk with 140g bullets out of 6.5's, not that that would be my first choice, but it's happening. look at their energy numbers and try to keep it at 1500 ft-lbs at the animal (so at the max distance you might shoot). buy a couple boxes of a variety and see how they shoot in your rifle.
pick the most accurate. get a chrono ($100 will get you in the game, small price to pay) and get your actual muzzle velocity; don't trust what it says on the box. get the 'shooter' app for your phone, $10. plug in the data (caliber, bullet weight, ballistic coefficient, muzzle velocity, etc). that will let you know what your trajectory is (should be) at various distances. go shoot at those distances and see how actual compares, should be pretty close at least within 5-600 yards. your trajectory at 100' and whatever temp and humidity is going to be different then at 10,000 ft and that temp and humidity so you'll need to have that data and feed it into your phone ballistics app as applicable.
then practice and practice. see how far out you can get consistent hits on an 6-8" target and that should be as far as you attempt to shoot an elk.
good luck, elk hunting is HARD!
The Berger 215 is a very popular hunting bullets for guys shooting .30 cal magnums. It is VERY effective on both 2 leg and 4 legg critters.
SOCOM /Army selected that projectile becuase it absolutley fucks up flesh out to very long ranges. It also has a very high BC and flies true making hit probability go up compared to similar class bullets.
Guys over on rockslide and long range hunting use it religiously. I just picked up some 220 Berger Hybrids to test out this year since the 215's are impossible to find.
Was able to get a few boxes of Barnes LRX 190gr and will probably use that this year.
Elk are big strong creatures, not the game to try and take marginal shots with marginal equipment IMO. You want more than enough ass to cover any margin of error.
SOCOM /Army selected that projectile becuase it absolutley fucks up flesh out to very long ranges. It also has a very high BC and flies true making hit probability go up compared to similar class bullets.
Guys over on rockslide and long range hunting use it religiously. I just picked up some 220 Berger Hybrids to test out this year since the 215's are impossible to find.
Was able to get a few boxes of Barnes LRX 190gr and will probably use that this year.
Elk are big strong creatures, not the game to try and take marginal shots with marginal equipment IMO. You want more than enough ass to cover any margin of error.
I live in colorado hunt elk my whole life with anything from 270 win 130. 6.5-06 ack 140 300 win man 28 nosler and alot more cals and bullets from many others. Since you have a 300 win mag that is my favorite elk cal. Of you reload or just buying ammo i highly suggest 200 grain eld x or the 212 eldx. Buy a muzzle brake for rifle and just shoot til you feel confident. I or friends have killed elk out to 800 yards shot placement and bullet is important.
300 win mag? What twist barrel
Most are 1:8, 1:9, 1:10, 1:11. 1:10 is the most common.
Definitely. My 6.5 PRC 156 EOL has better ballistics/energy past 600 than my 300 WBY Mag 180 Accubond.
Yes a .300win mag browning A-Bolt. Twist is a 1/10
I killed a decent bull this past season @ 800 yds with 300 WSM with 185 Berger VLD Hunting. As has been said many times in this thread, shot placement is key. My brother and I have killed 5 elk with 185 Berger VLD and 190 Accubonds. Both bullets performed very well. 3 of the elk we killed we were hunting <200 yards from a National Park boundary (If the wounded elk makes it to the park you lose elk and tag). Good shot placement and good ammo have served us well to date.
PS. The twist on my barrel is 1:11.25. Going much more than 185-190 gr bullets starts getting in unstable range. https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
PS. The twist on my barrel is 1:11.25. Going much more than 185-190 gr bullets starts getting in unstable range. https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
