Bore guide logic

TurboTrout · Mar 16, 2021

Another post got me thinking.

I got a few cleaning tool sets
Got some (well cleaned) bore snakes I use for pistols sometimes

Got a pull through coated cable thing that you screw normal attachments to, like a fancy bore snake for rifles I guess

Got my rod and attachments

Now the rod is composite or something similar, the screw end is brass, all my attachments are brass or composite

Aside from the nice little pour window to keep from making a mess, why do I really need a bore guide?
My barrel is steel, steel vs composite or brass, steel wins by miles, so shy of going all hulk mode, what’s the composite rod and brass bits going to damage?

6.5SH · Mar 16, 2021

The best type are custom made and support the cleaning rod at the rear of the guide.
For everyone else and 99.99% of the guides available use a properly sized brass guide to center the rod in the guide:

https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Shot-Fits-22-26-Caliber-Rods/dp/B005KW45GI?psc=1

Yes they are made for cleaning from the muzzle but work perfectly for this purpose. I've been using them in this fashion for 30 odd years.

Rubbing the rod against the throat is one of the factors in "cleaning ruined my barrel" (TM).

loveha · Mar 16, 2021

I think it is less about damage, and more about keeping solvents out of the trigger. Also just helps center the rod and makes things easier.

6.5SH · Mar 16, 2021

loveha said:
I think it is less about damage, and more about keeping solvents out of the trigger. Also just helps center the rod and makes things easier.

Out of the stock inlet and bedding material as well.

loveha · Mar 16, 2021

6.5SH said:
Out of the stock inlet and bedding material as well.

I knew there was more, but my brain couldn't bother.

TurboTrout · Mar 16, 2021

So basically as you insert the rod from the rear of the gun, it’s job is about keeping your solvents/oils/etc out of the rest of the gun. Makes sense

jakelly · Mar 16, 2021

They also prevent the rod from flexing enough to gouge your barrel with the point of the cleaning jags, as referenced by 6.5.

TurboTrout · Mar 16, 2021

jakelly said:
They also prevent the rod from flexing enough to gouge your barrel with the point of the cleaning jags, as referenced by 6.5.

With the length of the jag, is this even possible? I’d imagine even if the geometry allowed, you have to put some “you should know better” force behind the rod to cause damage, no?

308pirate · Mar 16, 2021

Can someone show me how incidental rubbing between a composite or plastic covered stick and the inside of a steel tube that's at least in the mid 40s on the Rockwell C hardness scale is going to damage that steel?

I need you to buy a piece of pre hardened 4140 from McMaster which will only be in the low 30s and start rubbing it with a cleaning rod. Let me know how long it takes to wear a groove in the steel.

As far as I'm concerned this is just another old wives tale from gun shop counters and internet forums. Because we all know solid technical info gets discussed in both all the time. You know like that nitriding "coating"........

GrumpyOleFart · Mar 16, 2021

Just treat your barrel like your pecker.
Don't dip it in crazy stuff, and avoid activities that will permanently damage it.

rydah · Mar 16, 2021

I have one but have never used it.

RRW · Mar 16, 2021

rydah said:
I have one but have never used it.

Pecker or bore guide?

Winny94 · Mar 16, 2021

6.5SH said:
Rubbing the rod against the throat is one of the factors in "cleaning ruined my barrel" (TM).

How? Steel: much harder and more wear resistant than CF, Composite, Brass, etc.

6.5SH · Mar 16, 2021

Winny94 said:
How? Steel: much harder and more wear resistant than CF, Composite, Brass, etc.

Is why I used quotes and trademark. One of those things that gets much more credit than it deserves.
Yet repeatedly driving/drawing yet another hard surface over the bore (and unevenly at that) can hardly be good for it.

308pirate · Mar 16, 2021

6.5SH said:
Yet repeatedly driving/drawing yet another hard surface over the bore (and unevenly at that) can hardly be good for it.

"Hard" is relative

And I underlined "incidental" to describe the contact between a cleaning rod and the bore.

Winny94 · Mar 16, 2021

6.5SH said:
Is why I used quotes and trademark. One of those things that gets much more credit than it deserves.
Yet repeatedly driving/drawing yet another hard surface over the bore (and unevenly at that) can hardly be good for it.

Is composite considered hard, relative to barrel steel?

308pirate · Mar 16, 2021

Winny94 said:
Is composite considered hard, relative to barrel steel?

Hardness and roughness both play into the equation

No one has any data. That's why I asked those who say cleaning ruins barrels to buy a block of 4140 and get busy with their cleaning rod.

RTH1800 · Mar 16, 2021

308pirate said:
Hardness and roughness both play into the equation

No one has any data. That's why I asked those who say cleaning ruins barrels to buy a block of 4140 and get busy with their cleaning rod.

The issue with a precision barrel is the possibility that the harder steel is cut to sharp edges on the lands. Even a much softer material could change those edges just as soft meat will dull a hard steel knife with use.

308pirate · Mar 16, 2021

rth1800 said:
The issue with a precision barrel is the possibility that the harder steel is cut to sharp edges on the lands. Even a much softer material could change those edges just as soft meat will dull a hard steel knife with use.

Won't the bullets do that anyway?

skl1 · Mar 16, 2021

I use a bore guide because it doesn't hurt to, but I also think the same thing as 308 Pirate: what's the relative hardness of the barrel vs the cleaning rod? It takes me longer than I'd like with a file to remove .0005 from 4140 or 416.

I get that the throat can get over hard/brittle from the heat of firing, so hitting it might crack off a brittle piece of the lands, so I go ahead and use the bore guide. But I try to not let it keep me from sleeping at night.

RTH1800 · Mar 16, 2021

The concern is that rather than a guided transition the rod could concentrate force on a sharp land corner and damage it. Carefully handled with a straight stroke and a graphite/carbon rod little or no damage is likely to result.
some of my rifles are really accurate and I take no chances. YMMV.

308pirate said:
Won't the bullets do that anyway?

DJL2 · Mar 16, 2021

I would speculate there is a combination of factors at play. I use a bore guide to keep the mess down and to limit movement of the rod when snugly fit patches would otherwise cause it to bend. I've also used pull throughs and bore snakes as well.

I suppose we could assert that every smith/barrel maker to accuse someone of ruining a barrel through cleaning is just engaged in CYA...or, there might be something to it. This is related to barrel break-in that many people are waaaaay deep into. Fire lap this, hand lap that, abrasives when you clean, etc. What's that really doing for you?

I suppose the answer is always - it depends. I lapped my bolt lugs true with nothing but a little abrasive compound and a few minutes of spare time. If you run abrasive cleaners or potentially abrasive equipment down your barrel...well...how long does it take you to get 60 reps, 100 reps? How much dimensional alteration matters? What about location?

Frank Green · Mar 16, 2021

308pirate said:
Can someone show me how incidental rubbing between a composite or plastic covered stick and the inside of a steel tube that's at least in the mid 40s on the Rockwell C hardness scale is going to damage that steel?

I need you to buy a piece of pre hardened 4140 from McMaster which will only be in the low 30s and start rubbing it with a cleaning rod. Let me know how long it takes to wear a groove in the steel.

As far as I'm concerned this is just another old wives tale from gun shop counters and internet forums. Because we all know solid technical info gets discussed in both all the time. You know like that nitriding "coating"........

For the most part.... most barrel steels are in the upper 20's to low 30's on the RC scale.

Not using a bore/rod guide will enable the rod to drag in the bore. If using a coated rod it will lead to the coating getting damaged/rubbed off....if using a steel rod now you have steel on steel touching/dragging in the bore of the barrel.

Also think of this....the hard carbon particles in the bore of the barrel as you work that junk loose....they can and will scratch the bore as well.

Also think of how some shooters clean with abrasives and clean the bore of the barrel like they are trying to unplug a clogged kitchen sink or toliet! Sometimes no finesse at all! Just give'er!!!!!

Look at the attached picture....this is what a brush and an abrasive cleaner does to the bore. I've seen the damage start with only 100 rounds on the barrel and only like 2 cleanings on it.

Frank Green · Mar 16, 2021

So anything you can do to minimize abnormal wear to the barrel will be beneficial.

Oh....and don't use a drill with a cleaning rod chucked on the end of it and use emery cloth etc...spinning at some stupid rpm to clean the carbon ring out of the chamber. Bad!

RTH1800 · Mar 16, 2021

Frank Green said:
For the most part.... most barrel steels are in the upper 20's to low 30's on the RC scale.

Not using a bore/rod guide will enable the rod to drag in the bore. If using a coated rod it will lead to the coating getting damaged/rubbed off....if using a steel rod now you have steel on steel touching/dragging in the bore of the barrel.

Also think of this....the hard carbon particles in the bore of the barrel as you work that junk loose....they can and will scratch the bore as well.

Also think of how some shooters clean with abrasives and clean the bore of the barrel like they are trying to unplug a clogged kitchen sink or toliet! Sometimes no finesse at all! Just give'er!!!!!

Look at the attached picture....this is what a brush and an abrasive cleaner does to the bore. I've seen the damage start with only 100 rounds on the barrel and only like 2 cleanings on it.

Is that bad?

spife7980 · Mar 16, 2021

rth1800 said:
Is that bad?

jmornoinf · Mar 16, 2021

I have never used a bore guide and never seen any degradation in accuracy in anyone of my rifles? Am I wrong?

Winny94 · Mar 16, 2021

308pirate said:
Won't the bullets do that anyway?

Just stop. No room for logic in the "cleaning damage" debate haha

DJL2 · Mar 16, 2021

Who's this @Frank Green guy, anyway? Sounds like a shill for bore guides! Why don't we get someone reputable in here...like...oh...maybe the guy from Bartlein barrels. People seem to like those, he might know something. ;-).

SRPowah · Mar 16, 2021

DJL2 said:
Who's this Frank Green guy, anyway? Sounds like a shill for bore guides! Why don't we get someone reputable in here...like...oh...maybe the guy from Bartlein barrels. People seem to like those, he might know something. ;-).

The insider info around here is if their name is Frank, just ignore everything they say.

RTH1800 · Mar 16, 2021

SRPowah said:
The insider info around here is if their name is Frank, just ignore everything they say.

Very bad policy!

Baron23 · Mar 16, 2021

Frank Green said:
For the most part.... most barrel steels are in the upper 20's to low 30's on the RC scale.

Not using a bore/rod guide will enable the rod to drag in the bore. If using a coated rod it will lead to the coating getting damaged/rubbed off....if using a steel rod now you have steel on steel touching/dragging in the bore of the barrel.

Also think of this....the hard carbon particles in the bore of the barrel as you work that junk loose....they can and will scratch the bore as well.

Also think of how some shooters clean with abrasives and clean the bore of the barrel like they are trying to unplug a clogged kitchen sink or toliet! Sometimes no finesse at all! Just give'er!!!!!

Look at the attached picture....this is what a brush and an abrasive cleaner does to the bore. I've seen the damage start with only 100 rounds on the barrel and only like 2 cleanings on it.

WTF. did he use for an abrasive, Diamond dust?

wow, that’s chewed up. N

Frank Green · Mar 17, 2021

Baron23 said:
WTF. did he use for an abrasive, Diamond dust?

wow, that’s chewed up. N

KG2 bore paste on a brush.

I've seen the same thing with Witch's Brew and a brush as well. One guy wrecked 3 barrels in 6 months. I told the guy (name and location of the shooter is with held

and I replaced all 3 barrels. He argued with me the Witch's Brew is very mild and won't hurt anything. My reply back was you have to change your cleaning technique. Say what you want your wrecking the barrels. The last barrel was a 260IMP. Had 110 rounds on it and he already polished a full 001" out of the barrel and the gouges where already showing up on the lands. I told him if he called or sent another one in and it looked like these....I was done. I'm not replacing them for him anymore. Haven't heard from him since.

Fast forward like 2 years.....

Same guy....and this is funny!!!! Calls one of the bullet makers bitchin they're bullets are blowing up! Bullet maker calls me and wants to go over all the things that can cause bullet failure. So we got into cleaning. I bring up the scenario above....didn't say the guys name but said what he shoots in and what State the guy is from...bullet maker goes....is his name so and so? We just found our common denominator! Called operator error!

Later, Frank

RTH1800 · Mar 17, 2021

Frank Green said:
KG2 bore paste on a brush.

I've seen the same thing with Witch's Brew and a brush as well. One guy wrecked 3 barrels in 6 months. I told the guy (name and location of the shooter is with held and I replaced all 3 barrels. He argued with me the Witch's Brew is very mild and won't hurt anything. My reply back was you have to change your cleaning technique. Say what you want your wrecking the barrels. The last barrel was a 260IMP. Had 110 rounds on it and he already polished a full 001" out of the barrel and the gouges where already showing up on the lands. I told him if he called or sent another one in and it looked like these....I was done. I'm not replacing them for him anymore. Haven't heard from him since.

Fast forward like 2 years.....

Same guy....and this is funny!!!! Calls one of the bullet makers bitchin they're bullets are blowing up! Bullet maker calls me and wants to go over all the things that can cause bullet failure. So we got into cleaning. I bring up the scenario above....didn't say the guys name but said what he shoots in and what State the guy is from...bullet maker goes....is his name so and so? We just found our common denominator! Called operator error!

Later, Frank

Frank,

You really went above and beyond with 3 barrels. I doubt many companies would do that.

2aBaC̶a̶ · Mar 17, 2021

It helps control the mess.

Frank Green · Mar 17, 2021

rth1800 said:
Frank,

You really went above and beyond with 3 barrels. I doubt many companies would do that.

Yeah.....

Well the guy was a good customer and had purchased quite a few barrels from us. So I was trying to help him. That's the only reason why. Once I pinned down what he was doing/what was going on and tried to talk to him about it....I hit a brick wall. He basically said that's the way he's cleaning now and he's not gonna change it.

That's when I was done!

RTH1800 · Mar 17, 2021

You can't fix stupid.

TurboTrout · Mar 17, 2021

Frank Green said:
Yeah.....

Well the guy was a good customer and had purchased quite a few barrels from us. So I was trying to help him. That's the only reason why. Once I pinned down what he was doing/what was going on and tried to talk to him about it....I hit a brick wall. He basically said that's the way he's cleaning now and he's not gonna change it.

That's when I was done!

Impressive support, especially with the “why” behind it, when I get something faster for my Tikka I know where I’ll go.

Watch Out for Scammers!

Bore guide logic

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