Berger Sales Suspended - at one retailer

Cant speak to Berger or bullets but the same is happening with the primer companies. Went to see “my guy” yesterday to grab some powder he had in stock. Got to talking about the prices going up and companies price gouging. He spoke of a conversation he had with CCI about all the recent price hikes on their end over the last few months. Long story short it boils down to all of these companies watching what goes on on sites like gunbroker. People start actively pairing $100 for a box of 1000 primers then why should the manufacturer keep seeking them for $35?
That’s the problem with supply and demand. People still pay those outrageous prices and now more and more vendors are raising prices on their end simply because they can.
So kudos to the company you found if they’re gonna stop giving them their business until prices settle back down then good on them.

Just because a few hardcore shooters are willing to pay a high price for an item, those companies still have to do volume to make money, and that's a balancing act. They may raise prices in an attempt to curb demand some so they can catch up. But I have a hard time believing that the prices on gunbroker have much sway with a company like CCI when determining pricing. They have all the info they need to determine price just by looking at their order volume.

Berger / Capstone raised prices on *backorders* not just new orders. So if a company sold bullets at $50/100 on back order and had a standing back order with capstone to fill them at say $40/100, the retailer should still make $10/box. But Capstone now just said, “hey, your back order price just went up” so retailers are getting stuck with paying a higher price even though they already sold them at the lower price to their customers.

It has nothing to do with the price of bullets. It’s that the agreed upon back order price changed and the retailers are getting hammered.

Yup.

Darkside-Six said:

Yup.

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That's the second price increase as well. I believe they announced a previous price gouge of 25% in November of last year or thereabouts. I know raw materials supposedly went up some, but companies are trying to make up for being on lockdown by increasing prices. They should stop paying corporate taxes in their states and hurt the governors that put them through the shutdown in the first place.

LANCER said:

That's the second price increase as well. I believe they announced a previous price gouge of 25% in November of last year or thereabouts. I know raw materials supposedly went up some, but companies are trying to make up for being on lockdown by increasing prices. They should stop paying corporate taxes in their states and hurt the governors that put them through the shutdown in the first place.

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Actually it’s the 3rd since October. They increased 10% then. Another 10% in late December and then 20% towards the end of Jan sometime making the price for 1000 primers $60. Fucking nuts.

Darkside-Six said:

Actually it’s the 3rd since October. They increased 10% then. Another 10% in late December and then 20% towards the end of Jan sometime making the price for 1000 primers $60. Fucking nuts.

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We will never see retail primers at $40/thou again. Ever.

308pirate said:

We will never see retail primers at $40/thou again. Ever.

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What makes you so sure?

Lead prices were way higher in 2018, and even 2013 lol. Copper is quite a bit higher though. Not sure how bullets are 2x as much now though.

308pirate said:

We will never see retail primers at $40/thou again. Ever.

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I’m afraid you’re probably right.

Fucking greedbags.

I believe it’s more a supply vs. demand issue and should end up at a more reasonable purchasing level before the year is over. Wishful? Maybe, but between covid, politics and industry consolidation I remain optimistic.

Strykervet said:

Fucking greedbags.

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You have to assume that companies are taking note of all of these morons paying $500 for a jug of powder and $200 for a sleeve of primers. With very few exceptions, most do not need these products to live Yet they get caught in the panic buying mentality. Most of us could go a very long time without shooting.

Personally, I've used this as a great excuse to shoot my .223 bolt guns. Eight pounds of powder will get me to about 2,200 rounds those rifles.

blbennett1288 said:

What makes you so sure?

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I don't know.......education and experience accumulated over 25 years regarding how businesses work and how consumers behave?

I sure remember a bunch of hubbub about 223 would never be 300 per 1k again. We might be surprised what they will sell them for when demand inevitably slumps.

shaun1826 said:

I’ve been seeing about a 35-40% increase in Bergers recently at online retailers. Anyone have any insider info on what’s going on? Has commodity prices driven this or just a supply/demand capitalization?

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I can't speak for other retailers, however:

I just received 2K Berger bullets (for my personal use) from my distributor. Out of curiosity, after reading this thread, I went back to the last time I purchased these exact bullets from the same distributor. 07-03-20 I ordered 4K. I just paid exactly 2.82% more. Yes, that's correct: Two point eight two percent. TWO...not 12...not 22....TWO. There are far too many retailers using the excuse of covid to raise prices, IMO.

Yes, I have noticed a price increase, just as we do every year. Was this year any more of an increase than the years past? I don't see it. Has supply went down? Most definitely. Where I used to be able to buy, literally, 10 to 200 cases of just dang near any brand and caliber of ammo, now I look and see 3 boxes of something that only 4 people in the world shoot.

There’s been a lot of buying and not a lot of shooting. As prices correct be ready to see ammo from private sellers being dumped on the market when their “investments” start to tank. Same thing happened a few years ago when ARs were impossible to give away. If 2022 midterms go well for republicans and a decent candidate gets put up to run against Harris, the price meltdown is going to be epic.

Not sure where @A&8's buys his stuff from, but a retailer (yeah, I know...a retailer vice his price from his distributor) who I will leave unnamed recently sent out an email to all customers with back orders listing the old and new Berger prices.

For example, 6.5 CM 140 gr Hybrid Target bullets went from $49.95/100 to $61.99/100 yielding a $12.04 price increase equaling 24% higher than old price.

6.5 CM 140 gr Hybrid Target ammo went from $32.95/20 to $43.99 yielding a @11.04 price increase equaling a whopping 33% increase over old price.

This retailer does take back orders but does not charge until they ship the product so they are not being squeezed like a lemon by manufacturer's like retailers that took the money at the time of the B.O. and are no finding all of their profit eaten by the manf. I don't blame any of them for dropping Berger...perm or until they figure out where they stand.

Sad state of affairs.

Darkside-Six said:

Actually it’s the 3rd since October. They increased 10% then. Another 10% in late December and then 20% towards the end of Jan sometime making the price for 1000 primers $60. Fucking nuts.

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That’s nothing! The mom and pop shop in the Bay Area has jacked up the cost of primers to $200/1000. And 1 pound of powder for $100. I don’t know who the hell pays that but it seems like bullshit to me.

Lukeshoot85 said:

That’s nothing! The mom and pop shop in the Bay Area has jacked up the cost of primers to $200/1000. And 1 pound of powder for $100. I don’t know who the hell pays that but it seems like bullshit to me.

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Yup. As long as people are stupid enough to pay those prices then they’ll keep jacking them up. Like someone above said, if republicans win their midterms we should see a nice price decline.

8LB of TAC and 2,000 primers will keep me gunning 223/5.56 for a while at pre-panic prices.

Thats funny , I just bought 1000 CCI 450's from a Local retailer , $35.00.

Other retailers I used to buy supplies with are gouging like crazy. I will no longer shop there.
Also just bought 1000 Lapua 136g Scenar-L 6.5mm bullets, delivered for .43 cents each.
I have been shooting Bergers.

lte82 said:

There’s been a lot of buying and not a lot of shooting. As prices correct be ready to see ammo from private sellers being dumped on the market when their “investments” start to tank. Same thing happened a few years ago when ARs were impossible to give away. If 2022 midterms go well for republicans and a decent candidate gets put up to run against Harris, the price meltdown is going to be epic.

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I'll be ready and waiting

shaun1826 said:

Thank you. That was the data point I was really wondering about. So, this would indicate that Capstone is simply capitalizing on a supply/demand situation, and it’s not an increase in raw materials pricing. And I can’t say I blame them one bit. Someone is going to make the profit when Demand far outstrips the supply. If Capstone doesn’t keep the profit, then individual people will simply buy and resell themselves and make the profit. You and I may not like the increased price, but that is the way it works.

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I don't want to be be misleading in sounding like Capstone is doing that. I get my stuff from a wholesale distributor, NOT direct from Capstone. I have no idea what their (my dist.) markup is or anything. All I know is, I just received a recent order from my distributor and the price was less than 3% increase from last July.

Darkside-Six said:

Yup. As long as people are stupid enough to pay those prices then they’ll keep jacking them up. Like someone above said, if republicans win their midterms we should see a nice price decline.

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That would be great, but I just can't see it happening. The theft of the 2020 presidential "election" was the start of a significant era in "elections."

I just can't believe the demonrats would come this far (stealing the presidency) to just let the republicrats win in the midterms.

As far as the pricing structure goes, it sucks. It will inhibit the amount I shoot, for certain. However, as much as price increases suck, that's just how our economy works.

On the topic of bullets and ammunition, what the hell happened to Prime again? They showed up, did awesome, then lost it all. They come out stating they're making a comeback, then nothing. Was it just the timing with the covid scamdemic that has precluded us from enjoying the fruits of their labor?

Stuff is definitely going up. My outfit has gone up 25-30% on the products we sell in the last 4 months.

I’ll buy more reloading stuff as it becomes available, but not at insane prices. That said, we may be entering the era of $60 primers. I’ll sit on what I’ve got and golf and fish more if I’ve got to go $100 for a thousand primers.

I’m all for capitalism, which means that I can defend the right of “gunbroker price gouging crowd” to sell stuff at ridiculous prices all the while hoping they lose their homes and have to live in a fucking dumpster after prices normalize .

Makes sense. Large increase across the board in reloading components.

308pirate said:

I'll be ready and waiting

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Don’t try to flex. We all know those are 1s underneath.

I work in a business that consumes a significant amount of copper. I can assure you that what you pay for a pound of it today will be a bargain in a month or two.

There’s maybe 1-2c worth of copper at best in a j4 jacket. If prices double, I pay 1c more? Lead is down since 2013. It’s either the labor market, increase in projected corporate taxes, or profit. It’s likely all three.

308pirate said:

We will never see retail primers at $40/thou again. Ever.

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Not the same price schedule but we thought the same after Sandy Hook. Inflation alone could dictate prices as much as political climate. The last primer increase came while GW was president, not clinton or o'numbnuts.
Plus primer prices have been stagnant for 15 yrs.
A 1-2 cent increase per primer in a rifle rd is pretty easy to adjust to for rifle reloaders considering bullet and powder costs.. Yet most of us balked at 55-60 buck cci br2's or 4's, not sure which was high.
A 2-3 cent increase per primer in factory pistol ammo is where the shit show begins, easy to tack on extra now.

Maybe I am out of touch with reality here, and feel anyone paying over 60 per brick of primers or over 240 per 8lb jug of powders are fools. I also do not feel even though shooters are feeding the machine at the moment, that the machine will end up eating them.

The government pumped trillions of dollars into the economy, how long did everyone think the Fed could deny inflation before it was too obvious to lie about? I'm kind of surprised it lasted as long as it did.

Cascade Hemi said:

The government pumped trillions of dollars into the economy, how long did everyone think the Fed could deny inflation before it was too obvious to lie about? I'm kind of surprised it lasted as long as it did.

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Not that I know, but I have been reading true inflation from this president is 3-4 yrs down the road.

Berger has always controlled the price of their products, way more so than any bullet company, Not that I am right here, but it was as easy as availability.
I for one thought Nammo stepping in would be a huge boost in the right direction. I feel they are making some better bullets thanks to quality control, but IMO it seems to end there.

Milo 2.5 said:

Not that I know, but I have been reading true inflation from this president is 3-4 yrs down the road.

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The Fed defines the "inflation rate" that goes to print. The last four presidents have openly pumped cash straight into the economy. The Fed's inflation rates have been clownish for the last 30 years but rampant money printer action has gone up ten fold since 08. Everything in the economy costs more and equity/commodity markets are inflated.

Demand for primers is up, there's no denying it, but your dollars are also worth a lot less.

What happens when some shooters say, "That's it, I'm done. The price of competing in (fill in the shooting discipline) has gotten beyond what I can afford." Some shooters may shoot a lot less and some might stop completely. The component manufacturers and retailers had better take this into consideration. Numerous other sports started out being affordable but now their numbers have dropped drastically.

Namekagon said:

Just because a few hardcore shooters are willing to pay a high price for an item, those companies still have to do volume to make money, and that's a balancing act. They may raise prices in an attempt to curb demand some so they can catch up. But I have a hard time believing that the prices on gunbroker have much sway with a company like CCI when determining pricing. They have all the info they need to determine price just by looking at their order volume.

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This. Multi-national companies are not getting their pricing strategy from gunbroker.....

308pirate said:

I don't know.......education and experience accumulated over 25 years regarding how businesses work and how consumers behave?

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Remember a few years after Obama and 9mm was $0.19 or less per rd? 223/5.56 for sub $0.30? That happened after people said prices would never fall again.

Winny94 said:

Remember a few years after Obama and 9mm was $0.19 or less per rd? 223/5.56 for sub $0.30? That happened after people said prices would never fall again.

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The drivers for that surge were mostly imaginary. BLM and antifa weren't the threats they are today.

It's foolish to make predictions on situations that are similar only on the shallowest of analysis.

308pirate said:

The drivers for that surge were mostly imaginary. BLM and antifa weren't the threats they are today.

It's foolish to make predictions on situations that are similar only on the shallowest of analysis.

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The drivers for that surge were fears of regulations from a democratic majority. Same as today.
People arent hoarding primers for fear of antifa....

Winny94 said:

The drivers for that surge were fears of regulations from a democratic majority. Same as today.
People arent hoarding primers for fear of antifa....

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Yeah you know everything.

I think most of us have enough ammo for our own protection from blm and antifa scum. They aren't the problem. Our big problem is a corrupt DNC run gov't that wants to keep us from getting ammo and handloading components.

308pirate said:

Yeah you know everything.

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I know quite a bit on this topic.
Just for clarity, you honestly believe the hoarders are stocking up on powder and primers because of metro riots? Really?

Not to get all tinfoil hat but could it be that these bots that are buying up everything are run by the gun control advocates?

kriller134 said:

Not to get all tinfoil hat but could it be that these bots that are buying up everything are run by the gun control advocates?

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That's pretty tinfoil-y. I personally know about half a dozen people that do it to flip on GB. Once people stop paying ridiculous prices, the sooner the entire house of cards falls and we see supply start to catch up (still a 12-18 months down the road minimum, but gotta start somewhere)

Berger has a captive audience that is the precision shooter. They know that there are few places that group can turn to for supplies. Short of going to custom bullets for my sports and paying 1/3 more than Berger charges, I don't have options. I have tried the Sierra, Nosler, Hornady route for bullets, and have not found any of them that give me the consistency that I get from Berger. What I don't like is that they have not honored pricing to their distributors on back orders from last year. My supplier had to pass on a price increase for back orders from last November. They sent out an email letting us know prior to shipping that there was an increase that they were not told about. If you want to compete, you have to pay. 180 grain hybrids went from $225/500 to $240. I can live with that.
Cheers

At the end of the day we will hope 25% is all anything goes up , and it will be everything you buy.
This fiasco this country put itself in has to be paid for some kind of way.

Now anyone reneging on backorders is just wrong .

As an Electrician, I have seen copper prices increase 85% in the past year. All raw materials have gone in price in simular fashion. I’m not surprised that ammo and reloading commodities have increased the way they have. At some point, wages will catch up and everything will adjust up to the new cost of living (shooting).