Rifle Scopes LEO sniper in need of new glass.

If your best choice falls into a bracket higher than your agency/city is willing to write a check for, don't be shy about reaching out to businesses and/or individuals in your area that are Pro LE. You may be surprised by the willingness to help supplement the purchase. I see it all the time from ranging from hundreds of dollars to tens of thousands.

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I love my lht but it is a very lightweight scope and those weight savings have to come from somewhere. It weighs less than a lot of lpvo that have a lot less glass in them so do the math. The turrets are mediocre at best and I'm not sure why the elevation knob is not a capped type. Its a set it and forget it hunting scope. Among the best at what it does but not something I'd want to be dialing if people's lives and my career were on the line.

This will definitely not be a popular recommendation on this forum but......

Don't take the old NF NXS off the table for your choice.

You would get:
2.5-10x or 3.5-15x (the high end X on both are PLENTY to PID anything in your engagement threshold. You don't need 25X )
SFP
Choice of MOA or MIL
ZeroStop
They are tanks.
Illuminated reticle.
They don't have the optical "pop" and color of the ATACR and other newer glass but they have very, very good resolution.
You could likely get a program price under $1,500.00
Did I mention they are tanks?

./

I totally agree. Why wouldn't it be popular?

Terry Cross said:

This will definitely not be a popular recommendation on this forum but......

Don't take the old NF NXS off the table for your choice.

Click to expand...

Well that might be, but for the OP and his specific situation that is very different from the majority on this forum. I would trust your recommendations more than my own

I am seeing a lot of replies that don't take into consideration what is required of a Law Enforcement optic.
I will tell you, I am a proponent of FFP optics, my work rifle sports a FFP optic.
HOWEVER, FFP is NOT required for LE work, a SFP optic is entirely suitable and may even be superior.

IF the decision is made to purchase a FFP optic, then illumination is mandatory, this eliminates optics like the Burris XTR III.

Another important thing to consider is minimum focus distance. You would want something that focuses down to at least 25 yards, closer is better. This eliminates the Bushnell tactical offerings.

Field of View, very important. You'll need as much here as possible. Check the numbers.

Magnification: You are spot on in what you're looking for, 3-15 or 3-18 is an excellent ballpark of what you want.

IF you can find something that goes down to 2.5, even better. There are several, I'm not certain of the minimum focus distance.
Here is one from US Optics, LE pricing is very good:

Christmas tree reticles are all the rage, but not required for what we do. An excellent reticle for LE use is something like the G2B from Burris.
We ran an XTR II 3-15 for a while, I really liked the reticle.

The razor LHT 3-15x42 looks like an excellent option, the LE price is very friendly for a well made optic.
Don't be too concerned with "reaching way out there", that isn't what we do, but you have plenty of elevation, an excellent reticle and illumination.
This would be high on my list if I was outfitting again.

Option 1: Get more budget and buy a Nightforce.

Option 2: Find the Athlon that fits your needs and budget. ETR or BTR. You might find a Cronus with the LEO discount. Likely the best scope for the money and has been heavily tested here and proven to be reliable.

fdkay said:

I am seeing a lot of replies that don't take into consideration what is required of a Law Enforcement optic.
I will tell you, I am a proponent of FFP optics, my work rifle sports a FFP optic.
HOWEVER, FFP is NOT required for LE work, a SFP optic is entirely suitable and may even be superior.

IF the decision is made to purchase a FFP optic, then illumination is mandatory, this eliminates optics like the Burris XTR III.

Another important thing to consider is minimum focus distance. You would want something that focuses down to at least 25 yards, closer is better. This eliminates the Bushnell tactical offerings.

Field of View, very important. You'll need as much here as possible. Check the numbers.

Magnification: You are spot on in what you're looking for, 3-15 or 3-18 is an excellent ballpark of what you want.

IF you can find something that goes down to 2.5, even better. There are several, I'm not certain of the minimum focus distance.
Here is one from US Optics, LE pricing is very good:

TS-20X | US Optics

www.usoptics.com

Christmas tree reticles are all the rage, but not required for what we do. An excellent reticle for LE use is something like the G2B from Burris.
We ran an XTR II 3-15 for a while, I really liked the reticle.

The razor LHT 3-15x42 looks like an excellent option, the LE price is very friendly for a well made optic.
Don't be too concerned with "reaching way out there", that isn't what we do, but you have plenty of elevation, an excellent reticle and illumination.
This would be high on my list if I was outfitting again.

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I'm sure this guy knows a lot more about this sort of thing than I do but seriously a Lht is not an appropriate optic for your purposes. People don't run NF and mk4s because they have the best glass its for the reliability. Your department needs to up there game or stay out of the sniper business. Just from a personal standpoint have you considered what it will put you and your family through if your involved in a bad shoot especially in the current political climate? I'm a dumbshit civi who blew all his $ on thermals and your looking at scopes i bought.....

Take a look at the Nightforce SHV series. They have basic recitals and are under 1500$ in first focal and second focal plane. Nightforce has sunshades, throw levers, and flip up caps for them. Also Armament Technology makes a ARD for them as well.

My go to is the SHV 4-14x50 F1 in Mils for around 1100$ or less from Euro Optic.

Let's just play the devil's advocate for a moment.

The average U.S. LEO sniper engagement is 51 yards!
Get a high quality 2 MOA red dot optic, that's 1" @ 50 yards, eyeball size.
You will be lighter and faster to the target; and under budget!
Spend the difference on ammo and practice.

Having worked for an agency which was always willing to provide the cheapest POS they thought would get likely get the job done, I'm a bit concerned for your personal liability. If your agency won't provide the best there is, when human life is at stake, well that would make me have second thoughts about how much backing you might get when the cheap stuff fails. If they want you to get buy with a second best scope, document your concerns and cover your ass. Just a thought from someone who has been left out in the cold.

GreenMushroom said:

I'm sure this guy knows a lot more about this sort of thing than I do but seriously a Lht is not an appropriate optic for your purposes. People don't run NF and mk4s because they have the best glass its for the reliability. Your department needs to up there game or stay out of the sniper business. Just from a personal standpoint have you considered what it will put you and your family through if your involved in a bad shoot especially in the current political climate? I'm a dumbshit civi who blew all his $ on thermals and your looking at scopes i bought.....

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I can't argue with what you're saying, but I can tell you LE scopes don't get a lot of turret twisting.
However, if the turrets are crap, then certainly take it off the table.
The biggest problem now is that everyone makes high magnification optics as they are the fad, the 3-15 has pretty much fallen by the wayside.

We have been using the Trijicon Credo line with great success.

Fig said:

I totally agree. Why wouldn't it be popular?

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Most of the forums including a big chunk of this one believe if you aren't swinging a FFP for everything, you are just a redneck living in the 80's.

Just stood back in the shadows watching some pile ons in the past over such.
You knew the answer to your question before you typed it! You weren't born yesterday. LOL.

./

strikeeagle1 said:

Let's just play the devil's advocate for a moment.

The average U.S. LEO sniper engagement is 51 yards!
Get a high quality 2 MOA red dot optic, that's 1" @ 50 yards, eyeball size.
You will be lighter and faster to the target; and under budget!
Spend the difference on ammo and practice.

View attachment 7610062

Click to expand...

If you think an RDS of any make can give you the resolution to stay on the gun and on glass for over 10 minutes without wanting to claw your eyes out, you are badly mistaken. Your suggestion doesn't work in the real arena. It wouldn't just be not good, it would totally suck at the job.

I'm all about letting the mission drive the training AND the equipment but taking one snippet of data to drive your choice right into a corner doesn't make sense.

Who authored the above paragraph you quoted?

./

This thread hurts my brain. It's quite scary to be honest.

But to answer the OP, obviously an NSX 2.5-10x42 or NSX 3.5-15x50 SFP or a Atacr 4-16x50 SFP.

fdkay said:

I am seeing a lot of replies that don't take into consideration what is required of a Law Enforcement optic.
I will tell you, I am a proponent of FFP optics, my work rifle sports a FFP optic.
HOWEVER, FFP is NOT required for LE work, a SFP optic is entirely suitable and may even be superior.

IF the decision is made to purchase a FFP optic, then illumination is mandatory, this eliminates optics like the Burris XTR III.

Click to expand...

Absolutely not trying to be argumentative or bust your chops but would like to discuss/debate your decision.

They (ASA) recently did an LE survey. Since starting the data and survey process going back 30+ years there has never been a recorded instance of an LE sniper using a gridded reticle (MOA or MIL) to passively range a target. In that same 30 year data range, there has never been a recorded instance of an LE sniper using any element of the reticle other than the center to place a shot. No hold over, hold under, mover lead (whole other topic) or windage hold.

You said yourself that it is critical to have low X for the larger FOV in most operations. That is exactly the end of the X spectrum where 99% of the FFP reticles out there almost disappear. Even when using the illumination feature, any of the MIL or MOA elements built into the reticle are not usable because they are so small. They still accurately span the designed MIL or MOA values but you could not use them.

On Overwatch scenarios where your next overlap might be a 200 yards out or trouble at 20 yds with no time to dial , we teach alternate aiming points on the target rather than reticle holds. On movers, we teach the math but because of real world time constraints on a real exposures teach basic leading edge holds for almost everything (we usually only shoot movers out to 200'ish.)

It is not fashionable but the big, fat, easy to see SFP reticle on low X is a huge factor especially in low light and low contrast areas.

I have read enough of your posts to know you are very knowledgeable and experienced. I respect you and would like to hear the logic that drove you to an FFP for a pure work gun.

./

To the OP. You should reach out to Mile High Shooting Accessories and talk to them about your situation. See if you have any scopes or rifles that your dept is not using and see if you could use them as a trade in. MH will be very up front with you and work to help your team. You maybe able to get a higher end scope with your dept funds plus trade in. NF NXS line or NX8 could be in your ball park at that point. Call their LE division. They have been good to my team.

I get the responses of find more money and the dept should be buying the absolute best. But, working for a small dept, I understand what you are dealing with. We are stuck with a serviceable, but good MK4 3.5-10. Any talk of changing anything on the gun was shot down without discussion. The old "We spent money on it and it still works, so make do with it" attitude. My best advice on getting them to up the budget is to give them options. Contact some close by bigger agencies and see what they are running. Then give them a memo with that as the top end choice, then find something in the middle, and then the absolute lowest that will still be reliable.

My personal choice in the budget you mentioned was the Athlon ARES on my personal gun that I use instead of our dept rifle. I started with the 4.5 to 30 and it was too much power. I snagged one of the 3.5 to 18s and it fits all I need.

I’d personally look into a 3-15 NXS or 4-16 ATACR. The low end is very practical for a LE role and you still have 15/16 max if you need to ID something better

Leupold MK4 has had their issues and I’d suggest going NF over the Leupold

Illuminated reticle is a must for ffp. As the low end of the magnification is almost impossible to see in low light conditions

I’d go for a simple reticle design. A reticle like a MIL XT is nice. But imho any unnecessary clutter takes away from your field of view

If it comes down to taking a shot remember that shot will be examined in hindsight repeatedly. Likely recorded and put out for millions to see. So when you start talking budget optics just picture yourself watching the shot over and over on the news. Then ask yourself what $$$ it is worth to have every aspect of that shot be the absolute best it can be for you and innocent others

That said I worked for several small departments as well. And I know where your coming from. The guns we had were not exactly well cared for by some and we had the option to carry our personal rifles (which I did)

I know of several Dept that have sent guys to sniper courses where the guys going used personal weapons and the Dept paid for the ammo. I’m not entirely ok with the idea of needing to purchase own equipment however I’d rather have my own that I know works, I’m familiar with and is well taken care of.

Putting forth some money on my end to ensure I have the best I can get is money well spent when your in a LE role imho. If you need to use it then the gun goes into evidence and worst case is you’ll use a Dept issued gun when back to work.

This isn’t cnn and if you use the rifle it will be YOU they go after. Not the gun. They won’t care if your Simmons was supposed to be reliable or not

Buy a good reliable optic. If you end up paying for it then simply remove it if you part ways with the Dept and reattach theirs. No Dept I worked for would fault us from upgrading our rifles to better than what they provided.

Terry Cross said:

I have 3 suggestions.

#1: Convince your Admin that this is a 20yr asset purchase if done right. Good glass should be serviceable for years so when they amortize the purchase price over that realistic time span, they would hopefully see the benefits of purchasing quality.

#2: SERIOUSLY consider a SFP scope for your work gun. (I am 1000% open to any debate against my recommendation).

#3: Whatever you choose, make sure you have a wide FOV and low X on the bottom end. This is where you live and die on a work gun. If I could wave a magic wand and make it happen, I would instantly remove half of the magnification off most LE scopes and remove an inch off the stock's LOP.

Also do your research on the mechanical ruggedness of your top choices. Nobody ever misses a shot because the glass resolution or color wasn't enough but crappy mechanicals affect stuff every day (per your opening post).


./

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rm212 said:

oh, bushnell. older bushnell. i don't really know what it is.

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A lot has changed with Bushnell in the last 7-15 years or so. Their reliability track record with the Elite Tactical line (the only product line from Bushnell you should consider for LE work) is pretty impressive.

Listen to what @Terry Cross is saying in this thread - both in the quoted post and others. He's a wealth of knowledge on LE sniper employment and equipment, and he will steer you the right way. I'm not sure where you're located at, but if there's any way you can swing the costs (or get the department to do it) to enroll in one of his LE sniper classes, you should absolutely do so as soon as possible.

fdkay said:

I can't argue with what you're saying, but I can tell you LE scopes don't get a lot of turret twisting.
However, if the turrets are crap, then certainly take it off the table.
The biggest problem now is that everyone makes high magnification optics as they are the fad, the 3-15 has pretty much fallen by the wayside.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say crap but they're not great. Don't get me wrong I love the scope. I have the 3-15-50 and its crazy light for the size with nice glass and it's perfect on my light weight 20" ar. The fit and finish is nice like all LOW scopes but the overall durability is a big question mark for me. Compromises had to made to achieve the weight. I'm careful with it but I'm Joe Schmoe so if it breaks or looses zero it's not a big deal. It just seems to me in his line of work reliability should be by far the number one priority.

Terry Cross said:

Absolutely not trying to be argumentative or bust your chops but would like to discuss/debate your decision.

They (ASA) recently did an LE survey. Since starting the data and survey process going back 30+ years there has never been a recorded instance of an LE sniper using a gridded reticle (MOA or MIL) to passively range a target. In that same 30 year data range, there has never been a recorded instance of an LE sniper using any element of the reticle other than the center to place a shot. No hold over, hold under, mover lead (whole other topic) or windage hold.

You said yourself that it is critical to have low X for the larger FOV in most operations. That is exactly the end of the X spectrum where 99% of the FFP reticles out there almost disappear. Even when using the illumination feature, any of the MIL or MOA elements built into the reticle are not usable because they are so small. They still accurately span the designed MIL or MOA values but you could not use them.

On Overwatch scenarios where your next overlap might be a 200 yards out or trouble at 20 yds with no time to dial , we teach alternate aiming points on the target rather than reticle holds. On movers, we teach the math but because of real world time constraints on a real exposures teach basic leading edge holds for almost everything (we usually only shoot movers out to 200'ish.)

It is not fashionable but the big, fat, easy to see SFP reticle on low X is a huge factor especially in low light and low contrast areas.

I have read enough of your posts to know you are very knowledgeable and experienced. I respect you and would like to hear the logic that drove you to an FFP for a pure work gun.

./

Click to expand...

Terry, good question. I suppose it is the fact that I am very comfortable with FFP optics.
I also work in a small town that has a lot of large plots (5 plus acres) that may limit my approach and I appreciate maintaining correct subtensions.
Your points are absolutely valid, which is why I always tell folks that SFP is a viable option.
I'll give you an example from my experience:
I was taking the FBI sponsored observer/sniper course. We were shooting movers at about 75 yards. That called for turning my magnification down to about 10x if I remember correctly to open up the fov. I was able to make more consistent hits then quite a few of my class mates. I attributed that to the ffp and it's benefits. Of course, I could be wrong.
I do wish there were more options for simpler reticles. I also wish there were more options for solid SFP scopes geared to LE use.
My choice certainly isn't the only choice, and I fully support every point you make.
Most of the scopes that are SFP with simple reticles seem to mil/moa, which, in all reality, work just fine.
Hell, a simple duplex would work just fine about 95% of the time.

fdkay said:

Terry, good question. I suppose it is the fact that I am very comfortable with FFP optics.
I also work in a small town that has a lot of large plots (5 plus acres) that may limit my approach and I appreciate maintaining correct subtensions.
Your points are absolutely valid, which is why I always tell folks that SFP is a viable option.
I'll give you an example from my experience:
I was taking the FBI sponsored observer/sniper course. We were shooting movers at about 75 yards. That called for turning my magnification down to about 10x if I remember correctly to open up the fov. I was able to make more consistent hits then quite a few of my class mates. I attributed that to the ffp and it's benefits. Of course, I could be wrong.
I do wish there were more options for simpler reticles. I also wish there were more options for solid SFP scopes geared to LE use.
My choice certainly isn't the only choice, and I fully support every point you make.
Most of the scopes that are SFP with simple reticles seem to mil/moa, which, in all reality, work just fine.
Hell, a simple duplex would work just fine about 95% of the time.

Click to expand...

I get it sir. I appreciate the input.
I'm always trying to keep an open mind and vet my on philosophies. Sometimes the teacher, always the student.

Be safe.

./

I would strongly encourage you to put a premium on the low end magnification & parallax adjustment. Under 4x would be ideal, the top end is not nearly as important. I work in a suburban agency & our deployments are rarely outside of 50 yards. Yesterday's had a minimum range of about 20 yards. Shorter range, precise engagements are what we do the vast majority of the time.

I wish some of the 2-2.5-10-15s that have come out would have a FFP reticle with a little more concern toward use at 2x. The Weaver 2-10 did ok. Most of the reticles going into the 2-10 "tactical scopes" are more geared towards long range precision, and better suited to higher magnifications scopes. One of the big limiting factors with FFP is the broad range we see in variable power scopes now. 2-25 you are going to have to make a serious compromise on one end or the other.

As noted. Call Mile High Shooting.
They have a few LEO specific guys, Troy is my go to guy as I have done a lot of business with him.

Seriously though. Call him.

heed Terry Cross’ advice.
Mr Cross is not only a badass gunsmith, he teaches a lot. and he is a classy gent on here. Fdkay offers a lit of wisdom too.

And think about THEIS’ advice on what this thread opens up.

I was just going to recommend Mile High Shooting. Our agency has purchased several items from them and they have always taken care of us.

Sometimes the best action is to pass on a new program if your agency is not going to fund it properly. When I started we had to buy all our own stuff but that was 25 years ago. Maybe you could get approval to buy your own scope to use on duty. Our agency issues ARs but we let our guys use quality red dots that we approve of that they can purchase on their own.

All I know is that you don't want to be wondering if your scope is holding zero while you are pressing the trigger on a bad guy.

Maybe they should rethink their “sniper” program.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020619511?pid=961295 Has a plain mil hash with a fine dot crosshair very solid glass and very good turrets.
Vortex PST gen2 would be in the same pricing through an agency. Not quite as good glass but better reticle and forever replacement/fix it. Turrets do what they are supposed to and it has a very good reticle
Vortex Razor gen 1 5x20x50 is right around your max budget would be my pick. I'd put my own money up and get the razor but do what you need to and thank you
Whatever you buy get First Focal Plane reticle. This will eliminate impact shift when changing power and also make hold off's the same at all power

rm212 said:

I am a newly certified LEO sniper. when going through my basic class i found that the scope on my rifle will shift as much as 3 MOA when changing power setting. given that this is a major issue i am trying to select a new optic to try and convince my agency to purchase. we are a mid sized department so our budget does not have a ton of extra space. i am looking for recommendations for quality, rugged, rifle scopes at a decent price. the rifle is a remington 700 AAC SD in .308. i am currently considering scopes in 3-15 or 4-16 power range but all input is welcome. we are probably looking to spend less then $1000 but that would be at agency pricing which is often as much at 40% off. so looking sub $2000.

Click to expand...

OP,
I have been looking through different sights in an attempt to find something that fits the bill.
Earlier, I recommended the Vortex LTH, another poster chimed in and thought it might not be a great choice, as he had personal experience with them.
You could contact Vortex and request they send a T&E sample.
Terry Cross has done an excellent job explaining his thoughts on it, and I concur with his conclusions.
Admittedly, I am a FFP guy, but I have been using them for years and am very comfortable with them.
His argument for the SFP optic in the LE environment is 100% valid.
I've been looking around, trying to find good, SFP scopes with a fairly basic reticle.
I found this, though I would prefer lower magnification, it is workable:

I did finally find this, which may be a good option, I don't have any experience with Sig optics, but his checks all the boxes, SFP, simple holdover reticle, illuminated reticle, tactical turrets. They'll need to shit or get off the pot on this though.

fdkay said:

I am seeing a lot of replies that don't take into consideration what is required of a Law Enforcement optic.
I will tell you, I am a proponent of FFP optics, my work rifle sports a FFP optic.
HOWEVER, FFP is NOT required for LE work, a SFP optic is entirely suitable and may even be superior.

IF the decision is made to purchase a FFP optic, then illumination is mandatory, this eliminates optics like the Burris XTR III.

Another important thing to consider is minimum focus distance. You would want something that focuses down to at least 25 yards, closer is better. This eliminates the Bushnell tactical offerings.

Field of View, very important. You'll need as much here as possible. Check the numbers.

Magnification: You are spot on in what you're looking for, 3-15 or 3-18 is an excellent ballpark of what you want.

IF you can find something that goes down to 2.5, even better. There are several, I'm not certain of the minimum focus distance.
Here is one from US Optics, LE pricing is very good:

TS-20X | US Optics

www.usoptics.com

Christmas tree reticles are all the rage, but not required for what we do. An excellent reticle for LE use is something like the G2B from Burris.
We ran an XTR II 3-15 for a while, I really liked the reticle.

The razor LHT 3-15x42 looks like an excellent option, the LE price is very friendly for a well made optic.
Don't be too concerned with "reaching way out there", that isn't what we do, but you have plenty of elevation, an excellent reticle and illumination.
This would be high on my list if I was outfitting again.

Click to expand...

Hell, by your criteria the SWFA 3-15X42 will do the job and I mean that seriously.

• Mine tracks like a champ.
• The reticle is thick enough to still be usable at 3X without illumination, though I don't know how it would be near dusk and dawn.
• It focuses down to 10 yds
• It's more than adequately clear and bright
• It's not too hateful in the eye relief and exit pupil
• It's absolutely less than $1000 at retail

ubettcha said:

Whatever you buy get First Focal Plane reticle. This will eliminate impact shift when changing power and also make hold off's the same at all power

Click to expand...

Did you read the remarks made by @Terry Cross regarding scope's focal plane? Are you as qualified as he is?

BTW, quality scopes don't have impact shifts when changing magnification regardless of where the reticle is located in relation to the erector assembly.

I've used the Sig Sauer, the one I had was excellent. Donated it to a low income PD. It's working great there.

And, I'm not afraid of any liability issues using one.

TC and FDk are both experienced qualified professionals in the job, who give very solid advice. Take them seriously.
I'm in the TC camp and couldn't add anything past what hes put out there, so I will stay quiet for now.

ubettcha said:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020619511?pid=961295 Has a plain mil hash with a fine dot crosshair very solid glass and very good turrets.

Crimson Trace 5-Series Tactical Rifle Scope 34mm Tube 3-18x 50mm 1/10

The Crimson Trace 5-Series is a feature rich 3-18x 50mm mid-range rifle scope that has been purposefully built from the ground up. The scopes First...

www.midwayusa.com

Vortex PST gen2 would be in the same pricing through an agency. Not quite as good glass but better reticle and forever replacement/fix it. Turrets do what they are supposed to and it has a very good reticle
Vortex Razor gen 1 5x20x50 is right around your max budget would be my pick. I'd put my own money up and get the razor but do what you need to and thank you
Whatever you buy get First Focal Plane reticle. This will eliminate impact shift when changing power and also make hold off's the same at all power

Click to expand...

isnt the PST2 the same as the gen 1 razor?

TurboTrout said:

isnt the PST2 the same as the gen 1 razor?

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Not even close.
The PST2 is a good, Philippine made optic, the Gen 1 razor is a very good, LOW made optic from Japan.

308pirate said:

Hell, by your criteria the SWFA 3-15X42 will do the job and I mean that seriously.

• Mine tracks like a champ.
• The reticle is thick enough to still be usable at 3X without illumination, though I don't know how it would be near dusk and dawn.
• It focuses down to 10 yds
• It's more than adequately clear and bright
• It's not too hateful in the eye relief and exit pupil
• It's absolutely less than $1000 at retail

Click to expand...

If it had illumination, it would be a great option. The simple, yet very effective reticle is what I love about it, along with the typical, SWFA bulletproof construction.
FWIW, I think one of the very best tactical reticles is the MP8 reticle.

fdkay said:

Not even close.
The PST2 is a good, Philippine made optic, the Gen 1 razor is a very good, LOW made optic from Japan.

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I’ve looked through both and it is pretty close.

I also thought they basically used much of the guts in the razor 1 in the pst 2??

Personally I’d get the PST2 unless you want to spend more and get the razor 2, and at that price point I’d also look at USO.
Just in my limited experience it seems past the PST2 it is a very limited return for much higher prices.
I can’t see myself getting a USO or something unless I’m shooting regularly over 1k yrds. I don’t beat the shit out of my equipment so I haven’t needed the built like a tank feature, if you’re crawling over rocks with a drag bag I could see the appeal in a more hardy scope.

All that said I’m not shooting people for the government, mostly steel and paper, but my min requirements appear to be much higher than his departments 3MOA. My biggest concern is if this little police shop is this cheap on the optic and rifle, what’s their funding on initial and recurrent training? Do they really need a “sniper” program, can they afford one?

Terry Cross said:

Absolutely not trying to be argumentative or bust your chops but would like to discuss/debate your decision.

They (ASA) recently did an LE survey. Since starting the data and survey process going back 30+ years there has never been a recorded instance of an LE sniper using a gridded reticle (MOA or MIL) to passively range a target. In that same 30 year data range, there has never been a recorded instance of an LE sniper using any element of the reticle other than the center to place a shot. No hold over, hold under, mover lead (whole other topic) or windage hold.

You said yourself that it is critical to have low X for the larger FOV in most operations. That is exactly the end of the X spectrum where 99% of the FFP reticles out there almost disappear. Even when using the illumination feature, any of the MIL or MOA elements built into the reticle are not usable because they are so small. They still accurately span the designed MIL or MOA values but you could not use them.

On Overwatch scenarios where your next overlap might be a 200 yards out or trouble at 20 yds with no time to dial , we teach alternate aiming points on the target rather than reticle holds. On movers, we teach the math but because of real world time constraints on a real exposures teach basic leading edge holds for almost everything (we usually only shoot movers out to 200'ish.)

It is not fashionable but the big, fat, easy to see SFP reticle on low X is a huge factor especially in low light and low contrast areas.

I have read enough of your posts to know you are very knowledgeable and experienced. I respect you and would like to hear the logic that drove you to an FFP for a pure work gun.

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No snark, but basically it seems like you are describing a pretty traditional hunting scope. Something like a VX3 or MK3 or whatever Leupold is calling them these days. Makes a lot of sense. People don't use them enough on hunting rifles either, assuming that the next big buck will surely be at 850, when the last ten have been inside a hundred.

TurboTrout said:

I’ve looked through both and it is pretty close.

I also thought they basically used much of the guts in the razor 1 in the pst 2??

Personally I’d get the PST2 unless you want to spend more and get the razor 2, and at that price point I’d also look at USO.
Just in my limited experience it seems past the PST2 it is a very limited return for much higher prices.
I can’t see myself getting a USO or something unless I’m shooting regularly over 1k yrds. I don’t beat the shit out of my equipment so I haven’t needed the built like a tank feature, if you’re crawling over rocks with a drag bag I could see the appeal in a more hardy scope.

All that said I’m not shooting people for the government, mostly steel and paper, but my min requirements appear to be much higher than his departments 3MOA. My biggest concern is if this little police shop is this cheap on the optic and rifle, what’s their funding on initial and recurrent training? Do they really need a “sniper” program, can they afford one?

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I have a pst2 3-15 as well as the lht mentioned above. Both amazing scopes for the money which is I'm sure why they're being mentioned here. I did a lot of research and purchased those 2 on the chance I would get more into long range shooting. I'm very happy with them and if I don't use them much I'm not out a lot of money.

Maybe I'm being simple here but it is a little disturbing that a Leo sniper is rooting around the europtic bargin bin like I am. I won't comment on the technical abilities of these scopes because there are many here more qualified for that. My scenario involves climbing up a shitty access ladder to get on a rooftop and the scope bangs off a rung. Are you still going to hit a perp or are you gonna smoke somebody's dog?

The reason I mentioned the mk4 earlier is I've seen military photos of mk4s that have 10 coats of spray paint and look like they were used to drive tent stakes and are still up and running. I would think this is the kind of reliability that would be desired for professional work.

Choid said:

No snark, but basically it seems like you are describing a pretty traditional hunting scope. Something like a VX3 or MK3 or whatever Leupold is calling them these days. Makes a lot of sense. People don't use them enough on hunting rifles either, assuming that the next big buck will surely be at 850, when the last ten have been inside a hundred.

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I totally understand where you would think that.

We have seen enough rifles come through classes that were sporting NICE hunting scopes that fail under hard use. The Leupy hunting scopes and even the NF SHV (and I am a big NF fan) have multiple instances of mechanical issues when used hard. LE scopes are still adjusted a lot (Elevation and Parallax) but just not typically across as large a range as say your typical NRL competition scope.

The hunting scopes just can't handle the abuse of getting banged against door jams, turned over on hard surfaces and any other hard use. We have to remember that the majority of LE users are not "gun guys" and while not necessarily abusing their equipment, they certainly don't coddle their gear like a typical private owner/hunter/competitor.

You and I both prolly have hunting scopes that have been through tough times and survived but they are the minority.

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rm212 said:

I am a newly certified LEO sniper. when going through my basic class i found that the scope on my rifle will shift as much as 3 MOA when changing power setting. given that this is a major issue i am trying to select a new optic to try and convince my agency to purchase. we are a mid sized department so our budget does not have a ton of extra space. i am looking for recommendations for quality, rugged, rifle scopes at a decent price. the rifle is a remington 700 AAC SD in .308. i am currently considering scopes in 3-15 or 4-16 power range but all input is welcome. we are probably looking to spend less then $1000 but that would be at agency pricing which is often as much at 40% off. so looking sub $2000.

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To the OP.

Some of the countries most accomplished and knowledgeable LEO snipers are on this thread. I have worked with some of these people on here and I provided services to their agencies and I didnt tell them what they need for their job unless they ask me my 2 cents. Dont fall for the its a good scope because its made by xyz who also makes this other well known scope. I've tested and mil certified a lot of optics and have had entire sample lots fail miserably.
You might want to ask the credentials of some people giving you advice especially with the liabilities associated with your job.

Terry Cross said:

Who authored the above paragraph you quoted?

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It's their data set.

Terry Cross said:

I totally understand where you would think that.

We have seen enough rifles come through classes that were sporting NICE hunting scopes that fail under hard use. The Leupy hunting scopes and even the NF SHV (and I am a big NF fan) have multiple instances of mechanical issues when used hard. LE scopes are still adjusted a lot (Elevation and Parallax) but just not typically across as large a range as say your typical NRL competition scope.

The hunting scopes just can't handle the abuse of getting banged against door jams, turned over on hard surfaces and any other hard use. We have to remember that the majority of LE users are not "gun guys" and while not necessarily abusing their equipment, they certainly don't coddle their gear like a typical private owner/hunter/competitor.

You and I both prolly have hunting scopes that have been through tough times and survived but they are the minority.

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Totally makes sense. Not to mention that the penalty for not noticing your scope lost zero is a lot lower on game than it is as an LEO. Still, the overall point that there are a lot of times when the new hotness in gear is going to end up not being the best choice. It can be hard to resist what is "better" for what is more useful.

strikeeagle1 said:

It's their data set.

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I have all of the surveys. I just didn't know your highlighted text was from one of them.
Did your large text quote come from one of the ASA Data sets or someone trying to reference them?

There is room for considerable debate in that quote.

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Choid said:

Totally makes sense. Not to mention that the penalty for not noticing your scope lost zero is a lot lower on game than it is as an LEO. Still, the overall point that there are a lot of times when the new hotness in gear is going to end up not being the best choice. It can be hard to resist what is "better" for what is more useful.

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I totally agree. Well put.

When a young officer is tasked with researching and making a purchasing recommendation, there is an abundance of information on new high tech gear and tons of info from competition articles or competition equipment surveys. The dollars spent each year by the public/private sector are many, many times more than the puny dollars collectively spent by officers and agencies so it is a no brainer regarding where the marketing concentrates. Certainly can get overwhelming and definitely easy to loose sight of letting the mission drive the equipment.

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308pirate said:

Did you read the remarks made by @Terry Cross regarding scope's focal plane? Are you as qualified as he is?

BTW, quality scopes don't have impact shifts when changing magnification regardless of where the reticle is located in relation to the erector assembly.

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If it is sfp it shifts. The magnifier is not flat as you change the power the light is bent differently. All sfp shift some but most cannot shoot the difference. No disrespect to Terry at all, by the 30yr study he posted, a fixed 4-6 would do the job most cases. What happens when you have the one instance in which you have a running threat or need to see if that's an airsoft in that 7yo's hand the above won't allow the detail and a duplex without a lot of practice is harder to shoot moving targets than a md or mil hash reticle.

ubettcha said:

If it is sfp it shifts. The magnifier is not flat as you change the power the light is bent differently. All sfp shift some but most cannot shoot the difference. No disrespect to Terry at all, by the 30yr study he posted, a fixed 4-6 would do the job most cases. What happens when you have the one instance in which you have a running threat or need to see if that's an airsoft in that 7yo's hand the above won't allow the detail and a duplex without a lot of practice is harder to shoot moving targets than a md or mil hash reticle.

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@koshkin for confirmation of this broad stroke comment

308pirate said:

@koshkin for confirmation of this broad stroke comment

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You will not see shift unless the scope is shot. A humbler type device will not show reticle shift due to light being bent differently. Goto a 1000yd benchrest match and watch what happens when a cloud blocks the sun in a relay. Or go ask a surveyor how much shift is there from a 6am light to high noon. A ffp reticle is in the same plane as the light that is being magnified a sfp is not physics works 24/7