- Nov 3, 2010
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- Thread starter ThunderMass
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ANY SLR fore-end works.
A light or heavy bolt carrier doesn't matter -- but it MUST function with all your ammo (typically a 77-grain bullet at 200 and 300 yards, and an 80-grainer at 600). There are NO re-shoots for stoppages or malfunctions.
The rifles weigh more for balance and to keep it from swaying and "Bouncing" while standing and in rapid-fire strings. A heavier mass takes more to move away from your aiming point.
It can be as easy or tough as you make it. 16 year old girls have earned their Distinguished Rifleman's Badge and into the President's Hundred. They usually didn't do that with M1s and M14s.
If it's faggotry, guys like Carlos Hathcock got their jobs as snipers and instructors because they were accomplished Camp Perry faggots.
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A light or heavy bolt carrier doesn't matter -- but it MUST function with all your ammo (typically a 77-grain bullet at 200 and 300 yards, and an 80-grainer at 600). There are NO re-shoots for stoppages or malfunctions.
The rifles weigh more for balance and to keep it from swaying and "Bouncing" while standing and in rapid-fire strings. A heavier mass takes more to move away from your aiming point.
It can be as easy or tough as you make it. 16 year old girls have earned their Distinguished Rifleman's Badge and into the President's Hundred. They usually didn't do that with M1s and M14s.
If it's faggotry, guys like Carlos Hathcock got their jobs as snipers and instructors because they were accomplished Camp Perry faggots.
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I wish I could, but it's not allowed. Can't have one with an adjustable cheek piece height or butt plate location.
ANY SLR fore-end works.
A light or heavy bolt carrier doesn't matter -- but it MUST function with all your ammo (typically a 77-grain bullet at 200 and 300 yards, and an 80-grainer at 600). There are NO re-shoots for stoppages or malfunctions.
The rifles weigh more for balance and to keep it from swaying and "Bouncing" while standing and in rapid-fire strings. A heavier mass takes more to move away from your aiming point.
It can be as easy or tough as you make it. 16 year old girls have earned their Distinguished Rifleman's Badge and into the President's Hundred. They usually didn't do that with M1s and M14s.
If it's faggotry, guys like Carlos Hathcock got their jobs as snipers and instructors because they were accomplished Camp Perry faggots.
Cool. I like the SLR in part for the looks, but also because it's comfy. I think the F1 Jerry Miculek fore end would be the most comfy, but, that one would probably be banned because of the "built in" grip. Just a speculation.
On the ammo, it doesn't look like there are any limitations, unless the ammo is provided by a sponsor, then all must shoot it.
I understand more mass makes the rifle less likely to bounce, though standing is 10 rounds in 10 minutes. For balance, where should the weight be? I figured keeping the weight as far back as possible would be ideal, but maybe more mass up front would help? The only reason I don't like the SLR is because it's very light, and difficult to add weight to (though ideally, I won't have to).
The rifle is easy to use. I just figure if I can make it even easier, why not?
I think some people are getting poopy because I'm not keeping to the spirit of service rifles. Rather, I'm following the rules, and that's it. Did Hathcock modify his rifles at all? I have no idea.
He didn't, but I'm sure the Precision Weapons Battalion Shop did for him. M1s and M14s usually got new barrels and glass-bedding. He won the Wimbledon with a Winchester Model 70 -- a commercial rifle the Marines bought for competition. Usually those got new barrels and glass-bedding as well.
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Competition shooters like to talk and let each other try out gear. Don't put the cart in front of the horse. Shoot what you have or can borrow and spend a few months learning the game, developing skills and then make some decisions based upon experience.
A RRA with buttstock weight is a great starter, beyond that improvement to your score is 5% refining your gear and 95% refining you.
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That's pretty solid advice.
However, as a competition shooter I'm usually happy to spend silly amounts of money for that 5% improvement. It's often relatively low hanging fruit when you consider how many man hours that other 95% can take to improve on.
I have not completed in a long time, but when I did, all the serious players spent there energy and coin on ammo at practice. I was young and was always messing with my rifles.
A mentor of mine would tell me, "if you want to be King Author, learn to use the sword, don't search for Excalibur"
Been a while since I was active in Service Rifle (before optics), but I’m sure that you still win it on your feet and lose it on your belly. Your going to have to practice what ever configuration you decide on. My A2 weighs in at about 15 lbs, Bob Jones lens in the rear sight, trimmed ejector spring, float tube, Geissele service rifle trigger, and a Les Tam sling. I played with a Tubb Carrier Weight for a while, but dumped it after a year or two. Could not make any external modifications to the rifle. Did it look like the M16A2 I carried in the day, yes (minus the stainless barrel). Did it feel / shoot the same, no.
Practice was one live round per four or five dry fired for offhand and prone slow. Two and two for standing to sitting / prone (I think you start in position now).
Steering back to your question…. Is there a particular position that you are wanting to have less recoil affecting? If it’s a general overall reduction in recoil, weight is a good first step. Others have mentioned springs and buffer weights. The jacket helps mitigate recoil more than most outside the sling shooter community realize.
Smallbore Silhouette is great for offhand practice. Have to build a good position without a jacket there. 3 position smallbore will help for prone.
Whatever path you decide, make sure to know the Alibi Rules.
Practice was one live round per four or five dry fired for offhand and prone slow. Two and two for standing to sitting / prone (I think you start in position now).
Steering back to your question…. Is there a particular position that you are wanting to have less recoil affecting? If it’s a general overall reduction in recoil, weight is a good first step. Others have mentioned springs and buffer weights. The jacket helps mitigate recoil more than most outside the sling shooter community realize.
Smallbore Silhouette is great for offhand practice. Have to build a good position without a jacket there. 3 position smallbore will help for prone.
Whatever path you decide, make sure to know the Alibi Rules.
The last four posts are pure gold.
My son pissed away a good 200- and 300-yard score buffer at this year's National Trophy Individual Match by shooting 600 WAY too fast. I scolded and told / reminded him to re-think how he shoots and plots his 600-yard data.
The last few weekends he's been shooting a LOT of 100-yard .22 rimfire practice with my old Remington 540-X, scoping wind, figuring correction, breaking the shot with proper follow-through, then plotting his break and actual score. He shot a 200-17X yesterday with irons and plain CCI Standard Velocity. He said yeah, he had to re-do how he was shooting.
He's ready for his last EIC match of the year (after wasting a Camp Perry opportunity).
Forensically analyzing and picking apart your gear can be fun, but YOU have to point the rifle and shoot the score. You can't buy Xs.
My son pissed away a good 200- and 300-yard score buffer at this year's National Trophy Individual Match by shooting 600 WAY too fast. I scolded and told / reminded him to re-think how he shoots and plots his 600-yard data.
The last few weekends he's been shooting a LOT of 100-yard .22 rimfire practice with my old Remington 540-X, scoping wind, figuring correction, breaking the shot with proper follow-through, then plotting his break and actual score. He shot a 200-17X yesterday with irons and plain CCI Standard Velocity. He said yeah, he had to re-do how he was shooting.
He's ready for his last EIC match of the year (after wasting a Camp Perry opportunity).
Forensically analyzing and picking apart your gear can be fun, but YOU have to point the rifle and shoot the score. You can't buy Xs.
It used to be considered good form to loose well. Cheat all you want, you will always know you stole your trophies instead of winning them.
I’m sure Tom Brady, being a household name, is losing lots of sleep over it lol
You are WAY over thinking this.
That fidgety low mass system will not be what gets you more points.
I shoot a fair amount of CMP. I have a solid rifle with no fuckery involved. Good barrel, good trigger, full mass BCG, JP buffer spring, standard rifle buffer, rifle length quard rail, BAD lever, and a 4.5x scope. 13 lbs-ish.
Every single point dropped is my fault. No low mass system or other gadget is going to get me another point.
The off hand is what will eat your lunch if you dont practice it consistently and well.
If you want to build a fantastic rifle, order a White Oak, Kreiger, (and a bolt from them) etc barrel, Geissele National Match Trigger, Geissele Super 42 spring/buffer, Magpul UBR Gen 1 from White Oak Armament, applicable weights, pick your flavor receivers as long as they are forged, a qud rail and the best scope/mount you can afford and go shoot.
As for ammo, 75s or 77s. I watched one of the national guard shooters shoot a 195 at the 600 this year with 77 grain SMK factory ammo (August 2021). He botched the wind call on his first shot, made his correction and then hammered the 10 from there out.
He had no fancy low mass bcg, etc. He is simply an excellent marksman.
The rules could go either way in this if one of the inspectors notices you gear.
"Must be an M16 U.S. Service Rifle or a similar AR15 type commercial rifle that is derived from the M16 service rifle design."
An armorer could say the Low Mass carrier violates this statement. You could argue that it is not clearly stated you cant use a low mass. The CMP armorer will win this battle on the day of the match.
The US M16 uses a full mass carrier.
You do you.
That fidgety low mass system will not be what gets you more points.
I shoot a fair amount of CMP. I have a solid rifle with no fuckery involved. Good barrel, good trigger, full mass BCG, JP buffer spring, standard rifle buffer, rifle length quard rail, BAD lever, and a 4.5x scope. 13 lbs-ish.
Every single point dropped is my fault. No low mass system or other gadget is going to get me another point.
The off hand is what will eat your lunch if you dont practice it consistently and well.
If you want to build a fantastic rifle, order a White Oak, Kreiger, (and a bolt from them) etc barrel, Geissele National Match Trigger, Geissele Super 42 spring/buffer, Magpul UBR Gen 1 from White Oak Armament, applicable weights, pick your flavor receivers as long as they are forged, a qud rail and the best scope/mount you can afford and go shoot.
As for ammo, 75s or 77s. I watched one of the national guard shooters shoot a 195 at the 600 this year with 77 grain SMK factory ammo (August 2021). He botched the wind call on his first shot, made his correction and then hammered the 10 from there out.
He had no fancy low mass bcg, etc. He is simply an excellent marksman.
The rules could go either way in this if one of the inspectors notices you gear.
"Must be an M16 U.S. Service Rifle or a similar AR15 type commercial rifle that is derived from the M16 service rifle design."
An armorer could say the Low Mass carrier violates this statement. You could argue that it is not clearly stated you cant use a low mass. The CMP armorer will win this battle on the day of the match.
The US M16 uses a full mass carrier.
You do you.
I've only been to two competition shoots (one service pistol, the other service rifle), but yes, definitely friendly people who like to talk, share experience and opinions.
I'm about to start a new job, so until then I won't be buying/building a rifle, and ammo is still scarce in my area. So until then, all I can do is research and find the best rifle to buy, or the best parts to build with, so I'm ready once the funds come in. That, and receive solid advice from other shooters.
I'm a little bit nervous doing that. Drilling out the gas block, which costs $20 and a few days to replace, sure. A barrel that's $400 and on short stock, I dunno. That may be what I have to do, just not sure it's what I am capable of. But hey, can't get comfortable with something until you do it.
It's kinda like at the match, I asked if the jacket was required, and was told "it's worth 10 points". So, you don't HAVE TO wear it, but if you can afford one, everyone is going to tell you to do it. I don't like the idea of "pay to play", but sometimes you have to do that, at least just a little bit. But it's also what you can justify; with the optics, looking at EuroOptic, I'm probably gonna go with the Athlon Helos. I can MAYBE justify the Leupold after the military discount (I think it's 40%, but I forget), but the Nightforce is too much, even after the military discount.
I was told the exact same thing; focus on standing, because that's where you can set yourself ahead of everyone else.
I like your practice method; good way to get trigger time and conserve ammo. Also, I THINK you always start from standing; too many courses of fire for me to remember.
No particular reason other than thinking about what I can do to make my rifle better. I figure a smoother, lighter recoil will be easier to shoot. I already know that, based on the rifle I shot, I want a 2 stage trigger, adjustable stock, and a different fore end. I don't know what the weight was. I also need to get that jacket and sling figured out; it felt like I had a tourniquet on my arm.
I'd like to get a .22 rifle as well.
Yeah, the alibis are a bit confusing.
I, like a fool, forgot to adjust my dope at 300. I still got a score of 71, with all shots on target, but I'd like to think I could have gotten 10-15 more points.
That's a lot of good practice. I never had the time when I was active to do learn all of this, but I'm anxious to get into it now.
Agreed; can't buy your score. Unless you count buying ammo for more practice.
I ain't gonna deny I'm overthinking it, but I don't see any problem with building the most comfortable rifle I can, either.
Can I ask how your rifle is 13 pounds? And can I also point out that the BAD lever is something I've never seen on an actual service rifle? But hey, I was a submariner, and we weren't issued the newest gear.
I know all of the shots are on me; but I also believe in setting up a rifle to properly fit. And, I've heard a lot of people say off hand is where to practice the most. 600 prone will be the hardest to practice, because, you know, hard to find 600 yards.
The setup you recommended is pretty much exactly what I was gonna go with; except I was thinking Bartlein, but I may have to go with what's available.
I like SMKs in my Desert Tech, so I thought I'd start there as well. And I figured heavier would be better.
Unfortunately, I am all too familiar with following the rules perfectly, but still being wrong based on the interpretation of another. It's something I'll have to deal with.
I know the M4 is not the M16, and that other branches may do things differently, but I've never used a rifle with an optic, a sling used in the manor of the CMP EIC shoot, an extended bolt release, a shooting jacket and glove, and I've certainly never used one stuffed full of lead; unless you count the bullets.
Staff Sergeant Harry Harrison shot for the United States Marine Corps Reserve Rifle Team. The summer of 2000 he walked into the Armalite store on Camp Perry's Commercial Row and bought an off-the-shelf National Match AR-15, zeroed it on the 100-yard Petrarca Range, and WON the NRA Service Rifle Championship.
It's NOT the gadget.
I was surprised (maybe I shouldn't have been) at how many submariners and nukes out-shot masters-at-arms, gunners' mates, and SEALs.
If you are Navy or former Navy (really ANY interested National Match shooter) the Navy armorers (active, retired, and volunteer) will be more than willing to build you a rifle.
It's NOT the gadget.
The Navy, surprisingly, has some of the best beginner rifle and pistol matches around, and invite civilians and other-service shooters to fire their annual West Coast (PACFLEET and All-Navy West) and East Coast (LANTFLEET and All-Navy East) matches. They use the same gear as Camp Perry, and select their team members from the Navy Matches.
I was surprised (maybe I shouldn't have been) at how many submariners and nukes out-shot masters-at-arms, gunners' mates, and SEALs.
If you are Navy or former Navy (really ANY interested National Match shooter) the Navy armorers (active, retired, and volunteer) will be more than willing to build you a rifle.
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A lot of service rifle guys use added weights.
White Oak sells an A2 buttstock weight that is 3.5lbs. You can fill the butt with lead shot if you want a DIY approach. There are several weight systems for the handguards.
The UBR stock has weights for the pockets in the stock.
As for the BAD lever, I can't say I have seen one on a grunts rifle, in combat. I can say nearly every single shooter at CMP matches these days uses a BAD lever. I feel it falls into the "similar" bucket and is non permanent, so they let it fly.
My rifle is as follows:
Aero Precison upper and lower
Geissele SSA trigger
FN Heavy Barrel
MWI Hanguard with quad rail covers (more comfortable to hold)
Magpul Fixed buttstock (plumbers putty and lead shot to balance it out)
A2 pistol grip
Rifle buffer
JP Rifle Buffer Spring
Warne MSR scope mount
Athlon Helos BRR 1-4.5X
It shoots under MOA and is more than sufficient when I do what I am supposed to.
More or less everyone on the line has a similar setup plus or minus a few different names on the parts.
A fully equipped service rifle with a modicum of weight added for balance more than eats up the recoil of the cartridge.
Don't over think it and just go shoot.
White Oak sells an A2 buttstock weight that is 3.5lbs. You can fill the butt with lead shot if you want a DIY approach. There are several weight systems for the handguards.
The UBR stock has weights for the pockets in the stock.
As for the BAD lever, I can't say I have seen one on a grunts rifle, in combat. I can say nearly every single shooter at CMP matches these days uses a BAD lever. I feel it falls into the "similar" bucket and is non permanent, so they let it fly.
My rifle is as follows:
Aero Precison upper and lower
Geissele SSA trigger
FN Heavy Barrel
MWI Hanguard with quad rail covers (more comfortable to hold)
Magpul Fixed buttstock (plumbers putty and lead shot to balance it out)
A2 pistol grip
Rifle buffer
JP Rifle Buffer Spring
Warne MSR scope mount
Athlon Helos BRR 1-4.5X
It shoots under MOA and is more than sufficient when I do what I am supposed to.
More or less everyone on the line has a similar setup plus or minus a few different names on the parts.
A fully equipped service rifle with a modicum of weight added for balance more than eats up the recoil of the cartridge.
Don't over think it and just go shoot.
Attachments
Submarines Once!!! I too am a bubble head (MMNC(SS)), and worked the “Armory” at Quantico during East Coast Fleet and All Navy Matches even though I was a Boomer guy out of Bangor. Needless to say, I have handled a lot of service rifles.
There is a lot of really good information in here from people that have a lot of experience. I would agree with most of them that reducing the recoil is basically at the bottom of my list of things that are going to help me shoot better. Will it help you shoot better? Maybe. Will it be enough difference to make a difference in your score? Probably not. Especially if you only have a couple of matches under your belt.
My suggestion would be to focus on things that will add points…dry fire, good jacket, dry fire, good sling, dry fire, etc. After you have some more matches worth of experience decide if the recoil is something to actually address or if you can make bigger improvements elsewhere.
There is a lot of really good information in here from people that have a lot of experience. I would agree with most of them that reducing the recoil is basically at the bottom of my list of things that are going to help me shoot better. Will it help you shoot better? Maybe. Will it be enough difference to make a difference in your score? Probably not. Especially if you only have a couple of matches under your belt.
My suggestion would be to focus on things that will add points…dry fire, good jacket, dry fire, good sling, dry fire, etc. After you have some more matches worth of experience decide if the recoil is something to actually address or if you can make bigger improvements elsewhere.
I figure most people use weights, it just surprises me that modifying the weight is so prominent, yet the gas system is so controversial.
It looks like the A2 with lead is a little under a pound heavier than the UBR with lead. Granted, I will probably go with the UBR just because I want to be able to adjust it.
Agreed on the BAD lever; the instruction states that so long as the BAD lever (or really, any other bolt release extension) doesn't permanently alter the receiver it's fair game. So the question is whether or not light mass BCGs are "similar", or are they "permanent"? That said, I wonder why piston systems are okay? Nothing against them, but, why?
Beautiful rifle. For your setup...
I too have an Aero upper and lower. Got a "Freedom" in black and a "Liberty" in FDE. Hopefully I can use either, though preferably the FDE. I haven't seen anything limiting the color of the rifle, and I've seen some with blue stocks, so I assume FDE is acceptable.
Definitely going with the Geissele as well
FN Herstal? What makes it a "heavy" barrel?
Not a JP Silent Capture though, right?
How's the Athlon? I'm probably gonna go that way, MAYBE the Leupold after the military discount, but it'll still be $900, and the Athlon is $300 after discount.
I get it, there's probably very little to be had messing with the gas. I just thought I'd try something different, and if I can make it more comfortable to shoot (less recoil/weight), why not? Whatever I end up doing, I'm anxious to start shooting.
Also a boomer, but my sea duty was on the east coast, shore duty on the west. MT2 (don't judge, I didn't like 'em either) for 8 years, now in the reserves as HT2 (for, some reason...). Working an armory sounds great; I'd love to do that.
I figure there's not much I can do to my rifle, but if there's some room to tinker, might as well try. Until I start my new job, and guns/parts and ammo/supplies become more available, there's not much I can do but plan. Can't even practice at this point in time.
Thanks for the advice.
The ultimate problem with messing with the gas system is reliability. Once you start messing with it, you go outside the boundaries that it was designed to operate in. Some things just work and its not worth messing with it. You also might be able to get away with a low mass system, I dont honestly know. The CMP has an email address you can send technical questions to for review/answer.
Color does not matter in my experience. Nearly everyone runs black (cheapest) however, I've seen a few different colors on the lines before.
A "heavy barrel" in Service Rifle means a thick barrel under the handguard to the gas block. After that, the barrel is back to the normal diameter.
Example below. I have no stake in Liberty(Satern).
I use a buffer and spring simply because its less expensive. JP silent buffer is good to go.
I have been happy with the Athlon. I've had it for a full season of shooting. It tracks well and is clear. Is it the Leaupold or Nightforce? No. However it does work well and is very reasonably priced.
Color does not matter in my experience. Nearly everyone runs black (cheapest) however, I've seen a few different colors on the lines before.
A "heavy barrel" in Service Rifle means a thick barrel under the handguard to the gas block. After that, the barrel is back to the normal diameter.
Example below. I have no stake in Liberty(Satern).
I use a buffer and spring simply because its less expensive. JP silent buffer is good to go.
I have been happy with the Athlon. I've had it for a full season of shooting. It tracks well and is clear. Is it the Leaupold or Nightforce? No. However it does work well and is very reasonably priced.
That's the strangest part of this whole thread for me. Mind you I'm on the outside looking in and have no dog in this fight as I don't shoot service rifle, but it seems like as long as you're within the rules it shouldn't cause any heartburn. If it doesn't work and you end up with an unreliable turd you'll be the first to know and you'll learn your lesson.
I don't think any of the proponents (just you and me at this point?) of tinkering are claiming it'll have any quantifiable positive effect on your scores, but again, if it's allowed and makes the rifle slightly more optimized, why the hell not?
It's obvious you never played the game.
I play with the operating system to make sure it runs reliably and is accurate/precise. Weight is to make sure it handles the way you want during offhand IMO.
I shoot a barrel that is heavy under the handguard but don't use weights and use a weight in the butt of the UBR Gen1.
I shoot a barrel that is heavy under the handguard but don't use weights and use a weight in the butt of the UBR Gen1.
Oh I've shot plenty of high level competition...and bent plenty of rules....hell, there was one time tried fitting .20cal barrels to .22lr rifles for NRA rimfire comps, as the rules only stated what cartridge we could fire, not the diameter it needed to be when it hit the target.
That being said, I always abided by the spirit of the competition....
Service rifle, I shot service rifles...
IDPA, I shot actual carry guns..
Cowboy action, I shot as close to period correct as I could...
A few disciplines like NRA prone, I always viewed as an "unlimited" class where you fight for any advantage...
But in this case, it feel a lot like taking a dodge hellcat, fitting it with a body from 1950 Chevy.....and then entering it in a "vintage" racing series.....sure you may win, but did you really win with a "vintage" car?
There are scenarios where it is more appropriate to bend the rules than others
When it's what everyone else is doing, yes, you competed and won because it's common practice. A service rifle is constantly evolving with operational need and the guns get better all the time.
Neither of those concepts exist except in the imagination of some people.
Shooting sports don't have a "spirit". They have rules. Rules aren't bent. They're either broken or they're not. If you want to severely restrict what can be done you write better, clearer, more specific rules. Otherwise get ready to suffer massive butthurt when someone smarter uses the way the rules are written to his advantage.
I don't shoot IDPA much. It's bush league compared to USPSA and I do it mostly when there's nothing else to do. But I know their rules better than most of those in my local area and I make it a sport to game their rules without breaking them. It's always fun when the SO has to eat a procedural he wanted to give me when I point out where he's wrong.
Forgive my ignorance on the sport, but are you required to shoot issued match ammo or could you just show up with handloads? Seems like the easiest way to mitigate ‘recoil’.
Issued ammo hasn't been required in decades and everyone shoots handloads.
You could reduce what little recoil there already is by downloading your ammo but that is a fool's errand particularly at the 300 and 600 yard distances that 50% of the course of fire is conducted. You need ballistics performance to help you with the wind.
If you put weight in your rifle, wear an appropriate shooting coat, develop solid positions, and use a sling properly, recoil is a non issue with any 223 load no matter how hot it might be.
The OP sounds like someone who is either:
- A perpetual Marksman who thinks "optimizing" the rifle and ammo will take him to the light
- Someone who's never shot NRA Highpower Rifle
Exactly. Lance Armstrong would be proud.......
A little bit on "rules' in auto racing. I know its not firearm related but I think it touches on the topic at hand.
Exactly. Lance Armstrong would be proud.......
Taking advantage of opportunities within broadly written, ill defined rules is not cheating.
The cheating accusations are mostly whining from those who don't know how to play the game.
I think this is missing the point. In real sports there is a baseline of extensive training and skill. In shooting and in particular this thread we are often looking to avoid training and replace with technology and gimmicks.
The ultimate problem with messing with the gas system is reliability. Once you start messing with it, you go outside the boundaries that it was designed to operate in. Some things just work and its not worth messing with it. You also might be able to get away with a low mass system, I dont honestly know. The CMP has an email address you can send technical questions to for review/answer.
Color does not matter in my experience. Nearly everyone runs black (cheapest) however, I've seen a few different colors on the lines before.
A "heavy barrel" in Service Rifle means a thick barrel under the handguard to the gas block. After that, the barrel is back to the normal diameter.
Example below. I have no stake in Liberty(Satern).
I use a buffer and spring simply because its less expensive. JP silent buffer is good to go.
I have been happy with the Athlon. I've had it for a full season of shooting. It tracks well and is clear. Is it the Leaupold or Nightforce? No. However it does work well and is very reasonably priced.
Email will probably be the only way to be sure.
Well, at least I can "jazz it up" with some color.
Is there a standard diameter to a barrel with a 0.75" gas block, above the gas block? Or are some "extra thick"?
EuroOptic gives a military discount on most things, and the Athlon is $300 through them. But Leupold has a better discount through them ($900) and Nightforce does as well ($1500). I could MAYBE swing the Leupold, but certainly not the Nightforce. That said, I'll probably go with the Athlon as well.
EXACTLY. I'm just kinda thinking "what happens if I try this?" And as long as it's not illegal, and makes the rifle better (or at least not worse) run it. I get it's service rifle, and it has standards, but I like to tinker, and as far as I can tell I'm not breaking any rules, just thinking outside of the box.
Do you think having more weight is better, or is the weight placement better? I'd assume having the weight between the shoulder and weak hand is ideal, and anything forward is not really a benefit, but I could be wrong.
I guess both? I enjoy tinkering and modifying things, and beleive that doing so has the potential to help; though sometimes "tried and true" is the way to go.
And no, I've never shot NRA Highpower. The CMP EIC pistol and rifle was the only competition shoot I'd ever done, or seen in person.
Exactly. Lance Armstrong would be proud.......
He used PEDs, which were not legal. But was his bike just some run of the mill 10 speed? Or was it THE BEST that could be built? Did everyone have access to the same bike he did? Does that give him an unfair advantage? So long as the bike follows the rules laid out (whatever those may be), it's not cheating.
That was an interesting video. I think the guy who kept the wheelbase but redistributed the weight was being innovative, not cheating. The rear spoiler and trunk... that was cheating.
I'm not training right now, and probably won't be for a few more months at least. I'll hopefully start my new job in a few weeks, so I'll have the money. But even then, everything from ammo and reloading supplies, to guns and parts are difficult to find and/or way overpriced. So all I can do at this very moment, is plan out what I'll be doing. Dont assume that the reason I'm not training right now is because I'm lazy.
Why do I have to go with a barrel from Bartlein, Krieger, Lothar Walther? Won't a run of the mill factory barrel from Palmetto State do just as well? Of course not. Why does everyone wear a jacket when they shoot? Because they can. Why does everyone load up their rifles with lead? Because they can!
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Exactly!
Per Lance
What was the guy who finished second and third in those races names again?
Oh wait, no one remembers
Well how about that........instincts were right because no one who actually has played the sport for a while wastes his time with the kind of stuff you're planning on doing.
Having shot it for years, and making Master in it relatively quickly, I would advise you to stop doing all this BS until you actually SHOOT a few matches and have a clue about what provides tangible benefit and what really doesn't.
Use your money to buy items that really help (a quality coat, a quality barrel, quality sights, rifle weights, and a decent sling). Use your time to learn how to build effective positions using a combination of dry and live fire, instead of wasting it (and ammo) tweaking your gas system.
Or you can continue on your present course.
Makes no difference to me personally, since I actually know what I'm talking about from experience.
Holy guacamole! I was just funnin' the OP with my comment about recoil....
.....I suppose the hardest part about building the rifle is finding parts! There are no alibis. (unless the pits really stumble and it can be confirmed..) Gun goes down, better get it up and running el quicko! It's a great test of skills and your ability to read the wind. If the rules stated tomorrow that the rifle cannot exceed a certain weight, well then I guess I subtract some wheel weights....a heavy rifle doesn't sway as much in a strong wind during offhand. I suppose it's how far you want to take the rifle, and what you're willing to spend. I always hope for a nice strong misty rain during the matches. That would always help the scopes.... Good luck and good shooting!
.....I suppose the hardest part about building the rifle is finding parts! There are no alibis. (unless the pits really stumble and it can be confirmed..) Gun goes down, better get it up and running el quicko! It's a great test of skills and your ability to read the wind. If the rules stated tomorrow that the rifle cannot exceed a certain weight, well then I guess I subtract some wheel weights....a heavy rifle doesn't sway as much in a strong wind during offhand. I suppose it's how far you want to take the rifle, and what you're willing to spend. I always hope for a nice strong misty rain during the matches. That would always help the scopes.... Good luck and good shooting! Who not do both?
Build a bad ass rifle and get good equipment and put work in to make yourself better and better. If I were him I’d just call JP and tell them the parameters and go from there. Easier to start off on the best equipment, if you have the money why wouldn’t you?
If you don’t have the money to make a nice but basic competition AR, maybe time and effort should spent elsewhere to get to the point that buying inferior equipment costs more due to the time wasted to overcome its shortfalls.
Personally, I don’t want to fuck around with fiddling with crappy stuff that I’ll just end up dumping and getting the better choice anyways, just spending time and money for nothing, get the right tool off the bat and remove variables, so that your skill is the only variable, makes becoming better easier IMO
Who said not to do that? I explained everything he needs to do to be competitive.
if you want a rifle call White Oak Armament and order one. Done. Screwing around with gas systems is something no one does because it doesn't yield anything. It's a waste of time and money that doesn't achieve anything useful in this sport.
The fact that the OP has never even fired a fucking round in Highpower Rifle competition tells me all I need to know.
Some of the guys giving opinions don't have the experience or knowledge to be giving them. At least not worth listening to.
Blah, blah, blah, call JP, buy a light bcg, or +2 gas system, try hocus-pocus.....for all the years that everyone tries to reinvent the wheel in CMP/EIC/NRA it's still basically what's stated above.
The factor that recoil plays is more to fatigue than throwing off a shot. Here the shot has fired, brass is mid-air, and still maintaining follow through with sights on target.
Well, there's nothing wrong with trying to find a mechanical edge...but it would have been found by now.
A better choice than coming here for help instead. US rifle teams national match forum:
A better choice than coming here for help instead. US rifle teams national match forum:
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Do you want me to apologize for not being experienced in competition shooting? Do you feel I'm wasting your time? I can't do anything BUT plan at the moment, so please forgive me for coming here looking for advice.
Holy guacamole! I was just funnin' the OP with my comment about recoil....
Eh, I'm okay with getting some shit for trying to reduce the recoil. I just don't see why it's such a bad thing to try to do that.
This, all of this.
Gear isn't a substitute for training and skill, but having the best gear you can afford as early as possible isn't a bad thing. And I hate taking something brand new, and just replacing the unused parts; just seems wasteful. I already know I'll likely replace the stock and trigger, maybe the fore end. And now the maybe the buffer and BCG as well.
I put a singe pin adjustable on my bow just because I wanted to remove as much shooter error as I could.
Dunno, seems like there's a lot of opnions on here telling to not modify it.
And again, so what if I'm inexperienced, that's why I'm here asking the questions!
Pretty big ego to think that your opinion is the only one worth anything. It doesn't matter how experienced you are, not being open to new ideas is foolish. That doesn't mean they'll all be good, or that you have to try them. And before you say this isn't a new idea, it's new to me and at least one other person in this thread.
Right, it may amount to nothing. But I'd bet it wasn't always the standard to load up service rifles with lead.
Fatigue is a thing. Why not do everything you can to reduce it as well?
I figured it was unlikely this hadn't been thought before, but in the event it hadn't, might as well try it.
I came here because I'm already a member. I'll probably spend more time over there if I get into this shooting.
I'm not sure about actual coaches, but the group I'm in has several people to mentor me. I received some sound advice from them my first time, and I'm sure they'll continue to help me.
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