Top tier vs mid tier lower

Us peasants are still shooting our $65 lowers without paying any attention to what arfcom told you

Tighter tolerance. More leeway in the way of style. Overall a lot better fitment. Also the resale value is a whole lot better. Also you can get things like Ambi controls.

I have four top shelf builds. I don't have any beaters.

It's kind of like trying to argue that a $1500 used hatch back can get you back and forth to work just the same as a brand new Mercedes.

Technically they both drive but is there an actual difference between the two cars when it comes to function?

The difference is in a lot of ways dependent on the experience one wants to have as well as the perceived value and ability to retain value.

I will also say that just the receiver set is one thing, but when you combine all top shelf stuff into one rifle is when you see a bigger difference. That depends on what you are doing though.

Is an $8 bottle of water better than tap water?

Is waygu beef better than a regular old Kroger steak?

Is expensive liquor better than cheap liquor?

One could argue that tap water relieves thirst just as good, regular beef relieves hunger just as much, and cheap liquor will get you just as drunk.

Haha good answers in this thread so far… my $.02 is, if you can afford the high dollar top shelf stuff and you want it then go for it.. I myself have everything from Anderson(poverty pony), aero, bcm, and RRA. All of them have assembled just like the other, have differences in surface finish, and allowed me to have a little more play money left over to go toward things that i consider a must have on a rifle of this type(light, good optic and buis, sling, and ammo to actually shoot and train)… a uber expensive rifle does you no good if you can’t shoot it worth a flip.

alamo5000 said:

It's kind of like trying to argue that a $1500 used hatch back can get you back and forth to work just the same as a brand new Mercedes.

Technically they both drive but is there an actual difference between the two cars when it comes to function?

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A new Mercedes would be a bit overkill. Would a $3,000 hatchback get you further than a $1,500 hatchback? At that level, it's a little more difficult to decide. I wouldn't think that there's a $1500 difference between the best AR and the lowest AR, but I'm sure there's lots of bling to add on.

no difference other than rollmark and style. Price doesn't mean better here

Imthatguywithquestions said:

Aero does ambi lowers. I've heard of KAC having tighter tolerance, but never actually seen it. As far as parts go I'll agree. I've shot top tier ars. I've had aero uppers. I think the barrels on them from ballistic advantage are not good. But one could argue that point. Idk I guess I was looking for something more definitive. My aero has never jammed or failed to fire or eject. Another good point on Resale as well.

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It all boils down to what YOU want. What are YOUR interests. Do you like to collect and tinker?

Let's take the average knife collector. Odds are they have more knives that they will never use for anything other than to show off or display or whatever.

Now on the flip side let's say you are a ranch hand or something of that sort where the brand name on your knife doesn't mean jack schitt (to you). All that matters to you is that your knife cuts when you want it to and that it won't break under hard use.

In this example 'guy A' can tell you all about Japanese knives and German steel and 400 other knife facts. 'Guy B' on the other hand doesn't care if his knife is handmade by a Japanese samurai or not.

Guy B has almost a pure 'utilitarian' view on his 'tools' and could care less if there is a giant gouge on the finish or not.

Are either of those two 'wrong'? Nope.

Pretty much the same thing applies to guns except you have guys (such as Garand Thumb and others) that run their gear really really hard and over time will weed out the weak and the cheap. After he breaks his third wigit he finally buys a high end wigit and it lasts him for years. Guys like that tend to gravitate towards higher end products but how they get there is more than just a 'look at my cool stuff' mentality.

In other words get what you want and get something that fits your needs.

alamo5000 said:

Is an $8 bottle of water better than tap water?

Is waygu beef better than a regular old Kroger steak?

Is expensive liquor better than cheap liquor?

One could argue that tap water relieves thirst just as good, regular beef relieves hunger just as much, and cheap liquor will get you just as drunk.

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Yes $8 bottled water is indeed better as they undergo lots of filtering stages and treatment before being sold, Which is a good thing. tap water are mostly tested polluted.

Beef is just beef to me, roast it, fry it, do whatever...

Moonshine is not so triple filtered vodka.

My point is the expensive versions are always cooler.

“A lower is a lower as long as all the holes are drilled properly and aligned” - KAC employee on a podcast saying that.

I’ve had spikes, DD and KAC lowers. The only ones I still have are KAC and DD. I think if you blind folded me and asked which one is which…it would be a complete guess.

My 1st AR which is now owned by a good buddy has a lower that was ~$120 bucks complete from PSA.....it's so far over 10k rounds now nobody really knows how many down range.....nary an issue. Also have a PWS which is now my dad's and over 10k as well.....nary an issue, but~ $450 for the lower. I liked them both. Can't find a reason to spend that much on a lower ever again.

It depends on what you're looking for. If you want full ambi then you have to pay more. If you want billet because it looks better then you have to pay more. Poverty pony lowers will work just as good as a KAC lower. The machining and fitment may not be as nice but they work.

Most people choose to save money on the lower and put that towards a better barrel and bcg or possibly a specific handguard or nicer trigger.

I don't mind spending more on a ADM UIC or Radian ADAC receiver set but that's just because I like full ambi and the aesthetics.

You can have this debate about many things...is a SR25 worth $2000 more than a dd 308?

Imthatguywithquestions said:

Aero does ambi lowers. I've heard of KAC having tighter tolerance, but never actually seen it. As far as parts go I'll agree. I've shot top tier ars. I've had aero uppers. I think the barrels on them from ballistic advantage are not good. But one could argue that point. Idk I guess I was looking for something more definitive. My aero has never jammed or failed to fire or eject. Another good point on Resale as well.

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agree on KAC, mine was loose which I want in a 'battle rifle'

AngryKoala said:

It depends on what you're looking for. If you want full ambi then you have to pay more. If you want billet because it looks better then you have to pay more. Poverty pony lowers will work just as good as a KAC lower. The machining and fitment may not be as nice but they work.

Most people choose to save money on the lower and put that towards a better barrel and bcg or possibly a specific handguard or nicer trigger.

I don't mind spending more on a ADM UIC or Radian ADAC receiver set but that's just because I like full ambi and the aesthetics.

You can have this debate about many things...is a SR25 worth $2000 more than a dd 308?

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or worth 50% more than a LMT? I'd say no and head to head bears that out but people gonna people

RUTGERS95 said:

or worth 50% more than a LMT? I'd say no and head to head bears that out but people gonna people

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Yup,
Exactly why I say buy what you want. I just grabbed a SP5 for double what a AP5 cost...is it 2x better? No but I wanted the HK.

Lowers need to hold the parts in the right places.

Uppers have to keep the optic and the barrel aligned.

Upper and lower fitment might be super important in precision. But that's a matter of fitment (matched sets, or whatever magic you want to employ).

Depends on the knights lower and if ambi features mean anything to you.




LMT MARS
Radian
ADM

These 3 are true full ambidextrous. If you want those features then it is different. Fit, finish and style can be considered as well if that matters to you.

Fit and finish matters to some. My Noveske matched set is the best fit I've seen on a receiver set.

But past Aero if you don't care about other ambi features you are paying for a roll mark. The matched sets from certain brands I'd argue are worth it to me. Others might not care.

Aero and Spikes are just fine in my opinion. Own them both along with DD. All work well in their intended purpose.

It sounds like you’re completely satisfied with the performance of what you already own, and maybe got sucked into the, “what’s cooler” conversation. That can be a very expensive road to travel on once you start down it. That said, if money is no object, have at it.

Clayman said:

Depends on the knights lower and if ambi features mean anything to you.

LMT MARS
Radian
ADM

These 3 are true full ambidextrous. If you want those features then it is different. Fit, finish and style can be considered as well if that matters to you.

Fit and finish matters to some. My Noveske matched set is the best fit I've seen on a receiver set.

But past Aero if you don't care about other ambi features you are paying for a roll mark. The matched sets from certain brands I'd argue are worth it to me. Others might not care.

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I'm still trying to get a hold of a radian set. I bought an ADM set. LMT won't work with some uppers so I stayed away from their lower.

Ask for a demonstration of the performance difference between a KAC and say Aero lower with all other parts being equal
MTBF
Accuracy
etc..
(I'm betting no such data has been collected)

Everybody talks about fit and finish. Its a damn gun. If yours isn't a little beat up SHOOT IT MORE.
Is the finish bad? Paint it!
Is the fit bad? I dunno--I've yet to see a "bad" fit on an AR-15 in my limited collection of Franken-ARs.

A KAC rifle has some more improvements over the standard AR, but whether or not they are worth it is just endless forum chatter.

Stripped KAC lowers are for keyboard warriors and manbun types.

Stick with aero or equivalent, maybe matched billet upper/lower for a precision rig.

KAC stripped lowers are for guys that carry empty Gucci wallets. Nobody wants to be that guy.

DocRDS said:

Ask for a demonstration of the performance difference between a KAC and say Aero lower with all other parts being equal
MTBF
Accuracy
etc..
(I'm betting no such data has been collected)

Everybody talks about fit and finish. Its a damn gun. If yours isn't a little beat up SHOOT IT MORE.
Is the finish bad? Paint it!
Is the fit bad? I dunno--I've yet to see a "bad" fit on an AR-15 in my limited collection of Franken-ARs.

A KAC rifle has some more improvements over the standard AR, but whether or not they are worth it is just endless forum chatter.

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$600 ebcg from LMT....totes worth it lol

I do think it’s worth spending a little more money on a lower you’re gonna form 1. Even if you’re really only buying peace of mind.

I prefer to put my money towards components with tangible effects on the overall precision of the system:

Barrel
Bolt
Upper Receiver
Trigger

Everything else is more or less up to personal preference. I have a top tier upper that shoots exactly the same on my premium billet lower as it does on my poverty pony lower. A lower is a lower (for the most part).

The car, Waygu, liquor analogies are invalid as their is a shit ton of difference in those comparisons as opposed to the lowers, which are probably pretty similar all in all.
That being said, people like to stick to “tried and true” when it comes to something “saving their life”. Companies that .gov has contracted, put through real world paces, etc.
Also, as mentioned, people just like nice shit and sometimes flat out spending excessively. Iconel gas tubes, KAC and the like. If that’s your style then a ZCO or SB looks kinda silly on an Aero gasser with BA barrel…which would actually be a great budget AR (until you out that glass on it)

Imthatguywithquestions said:

Sorry if this has already been asked. I'm looking for someone to take me to school here. I have aero lowers, like em alot. never any issues. Buddy of mine has some spikes lowers. Never any issues. But I'm looking at things like knights armament stripped lowers for over $200. Are they worth double the cost of an aero? Also, what's the difference? Aero and KAC are both made of forged 7075T aluminum, and if the aero lower is machined within spec, why is the Knights lower and others put on such a higher pedestal?

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Probably because they are a military supplier. Some form of branding, fan boys, scarcity has led to higher pricing. Milspec is Milspec, a forged milspec lower is generic other than the roll mark.

Being a military supplier they can charge the DoD higher prices for their products if similar or same are sold on the civilian market for more. Try selling a lower for $400 to the DoD if civilians can buy similar (semi-auto) for $120. Establishing a price on the civilian market before a military contract allows you to set the price more to your liking than going through the accounting process that will set the price at cost plus a smaller percentage profit.

drewthebrave said:

I prefer to put my money towards components with tangible effects on the overall precision of the system:

Barrel
Bolt
Upper Receiver
Trigger

Everything else is more or less up to personal preference. I have a top tier upper that shoots exactly the same on my premium billet lower as it does on my poverty pony lower. A lower is a lower (for the most part).

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Only the barrel and trigger will have tangible benefits, the rest are immaterial

Not if your bolt or gas block fail.

RUTGERS95 said:

Only the barrel and trigger will have tangible benefits, the rest are immaterial.

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RUTGERS95 said:

Only the barrel and trigger will have tangible benefits, the rest are immaterial

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You may want to read up on barrel extension to receiver fitment. Part 12 of the following write-up has some instructions if you're interested in learning.

The words billet, extrusion, forging, 6061T6, 7075-T6 have not been introduced.
I thought it was time.

I will go ahead and throw out a pre-emptive kiss my ass for good measure.

alamo5000 said:

Tighter tolerance. More leeway in the way of style. Overall a lot better fitment. Also the resale value is a whole lot better. Also you can get things like Ambi controls.

I have four top shelf builds. I don't have any beaters.

It's kind of like trying to argue that a $1500 used hatch back can get you back and forth to work just the same as a brand new Mercedes.

Technically they both drive but is there an actual difference between the two cars when it comes to function?

Click to expand...

In the cars, yes, in the lower, not so much. That little bit of fitment doesn't mean much (assuming normal fitment, not some out of spec lower.

There is a world of difference between a used econobox and a mercedes. Not as much in stripped lowers.

That was an atrocious analogy.

Imthatguywithquestions said:

Sorry if this has already been asked. I'm looking for someone to take me to school here. I have aero lowers, like em alot. never any issues. Buddy of mine has some spikes lowers. Never any issues. But I'm looking at things like knights armament stripped lowers for over $200. Are they worth double the cost of an aero? Also, what's the difference? Aero and KAC are both made of forged 7075T aluminum, and if the aero lower is machined within spec, why is the Knights lower and others put on such a higher pedestal?

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No, there isn't that much aside from some tighter tolerances, and getting chubby because it says KAC. You will never notice a difference if you have good upper to lower fitment.

RUTGERS95 said:

Only the barrel and trigger will have tangible benefits, the rest are immaterial

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An upper requiring a thermal fit, provides a tangible benefit.

JohnCarter17 said:

In the cars, yes, in the lower, not so much. That little bit of fitment doesn't mean much (assuming normal fitment, not some out of spec lower.

There is a world of difference between a used econobox and a mercedes. Not as much in stripped lowers.

That was an atrocious analogy.

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I am certainly glad we have at least one person here that knows it all.

So thank you for your astute comment.

The peasants are still shooting their $65 lowers.

I even dare do it, sometimes, with ball powder.

drewthebrave said:

You may want to read up on barrel extension to receiver fitment. Part 12 of the following write-up has some instructions if you're interested in learning.

Hellbender's (a.k.a. Lostinthewoods) Guide to the Ultimate AR (fixed) - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

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immaterial vs tangible benefit, read up on it. you are NOT driving material accuracy improvements from this. A little is never material now if you want to spend 5k north thoroughly gutting and refining then this is NOT the thread

this thread is going full on arfcom retard now with some of this.

RUTGERS95 said:

immaterial vs tangible benefit, read up on it. you are NOT driving material accuracy improvements from this. A little is never material now if you want to spend 5k north thoroughly gutting and refining then this is NOT the thread

this thread is going full on arfcom retard now with some of this.

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REEEEEEE GRAIN STRUCTURE REEEEEEE

db2000 said:

Not if your bolt or gas block fail.

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lol, you are not even on the same page here with the discussion.

But to your point, I've been fortunate in that the thousands upon tens of thousands of rounds out my front, I've never had either of these issues that were due to top vs low tier. Will parts fail sure but not if you inspect, replace and keep to a shooting schedule. Oddly, the only bolt I've had fail was a x39 with the thin walls. Anyone who shoots high volume or relies on their rigs for 'work' should be inspecting and keeping to a regular maintenance schedule to avoid failures. Of note, failures with parts is not the venue of lower tier alone, plenty of high priced and high profile $hit fails.

all of these are commoditized products at this point so there is rarely black and white, it's all grey at this point. Many forget, modern production methods and the amount of investment over the past 30yrs has diluted the value at the top and raised the bottom. High tides rise all boats.

AngryKoala said:

REEEEEEE GRAIN STRUCTURE REEEEEEE

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sorry Koala, not following..lol I'm slow today.....

the cooler the name, the more u can ask for them

RUTGERS95 said:

lol, you are not even on the same page here with the discussion.

But to your point, I've been fortunate in that the thousands upon tens of thousands of rounds out my front, I've never had either of these issues that were due to top vs low tier. Will parts fail sure but not if you inspect, replace and keep to a shooting schedule. Oddly, the only bolt I've had fail was a x39 with the thin walls. Anyone who shoots high volume or relies on their rigs for 'work' should be inspecting and keeping to a regular maintenance schedule to avoid failures. Of note, failures with parts is not the venue of lower tier alone, plenty of high priced and high profile $hit fails.

all of these are commoditized products at this point so there is rarely black and white, it's all grey at this point. Many forget, modern production methods and the amount of investment over the past 30yrs has diluted the value at the top and raised the bottom. High tides rise all boats.

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Cool story bro.
Glad your anecdotal experience is now on the internet forever.
You sound operator AF.
I’m on the page.

RUTGERS95 said:

sorry Koala, not following..lol I'm slow today.....

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Arfcom stuff I was trying to make a funny and failed miserably lol.

PSA lower masterrace ftw

AngryKoala said:

REEEEEEE GRAIN STRUCTURE REEE

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Don't blow your wad yet wait till you bait big stupid in.

I’ve got a Mega billet receiver set and a few Aero receiver sets built.

The Aeros are fine, seem to be a good value, and work just fine. I do find the sloppy fit somewhat annoying every time I pick the rifle up but I get over it quickly when the fun begins.

My Mega rifle on the other hand has a nice tight fit. It definitely feels next level, as I suspect many of the more expensive receiver sets would.

Fit/finish is quite a bit nicer on the expensive stuff but in the end they both do the same job and do it well.

Just depends on what value you place in having something you know is “nice” every time you pick it up.

Mil-spec, mil-spec, blah blah blah. During WWII there were Springfield M-1s, Winchester M-1s, H&R M1s, etc. I don't recall any GIs bitching about any one of them. Toward the end of the war, all the parts were mixed up anyway. Then there's revered Colt. I lived in the Hartford CT area and owned numerous Colt handguns. All had issues, especially my two Gold Cups. Remember another M4 forum that the owner used to publish a spreadsheet of all AR-15 manufacturers and had the "good" ones on one side and the "bad" ones on the other? It's not there anymore because he probably got sued. In his opinion, Bushmaster was crap, but practically every cop in the country had one. Has anyone actually seen a lower receiver break? They are rather low stress parts you know. Only strong enough to hold the trigger and magazine. Hell, what about all these guys buying 80 percent finished forgings and finishing the rest? I can't imagine if any of the holes lined up after they drilled it with their Black and Decker. I can't imagine any half way reputable manufacturer would turn out a part that could potentially fail causing bodily harm. Maybe some of the cheaper ones may not be as pretty cosmetically, but so what. If it lines up with the upper, holds the magazine and trigger, and functions reliably. then this argument is just that-a bunch of opinions. Ford vs Chevy.

If it's on the internet.. (fill in the blank)

Your answer won't come easy, it will require you to first and foremost define your uses before you can determine what is worth what to you. What do you need from that lower? There are four common things, precision, reliability of function, features, and aesthetics. Know that having one "better" on a battle rifle for instance, can subtract from the other. In other words reliability of function might not be the same for a shooter with precision as their primary need and a shooter with reliability of function. Or aesthetics with reliability of function.

So I'd recommend making four columns along the top of your paper, and use the rows for lower brands and model, decide what rating system you'll assign to each of the four columns (doubtful a point in one column is worth a point in another column especially as not all brands will be different the same, if based on your needs or instead of one tick mark put a value of 1-10 based on your needs) do a crap load of research, and fill in the columns and do the math on the rows. Once you have the numbers you'll have something to go on based on your needs and how important each of the four areas (you can add more, those are just the main four imo) is to you.

Otherwise asking as you did on the forums you'll only get information that relates to the respondents needs and evaluation of said products.. and since you don't know them or their needs what good is that? How can anyone else possibly determine value and worth for you?

Or rephrase your questions to something like "Which lower adheres to mil-spec the best? Which finish protects the lower the best? Which lower has X feature?

Everything I said is obvious is it not? But this isn't the 100th time we've seen this thread. Its more.