Rifle Scopes Is S&B really outdated trash?!?!

its the Indian not the arrow

Everyone else pretty much evolved to be like S&B, at least when it comes to turrets.

Sooooo 2008!

Total trash. Send your s&b’s to me for proper disposal.

Wait until you hear about what @Perceptiv has to say about how much better TT is than your boomer S&B.

Nostradumbass said:

I’ve been told multiple times by shooters using Burris, Vortex, and Bushnell optics that S&B are outdated.

How can this be? Are there shooters now who really believe Asian market made optics are superior, or have I just been conversing with the “jUsT aS gOoDs?”

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Other than reticle choice they are full of shit

Yep, threw mine away. POS.

I think the fact is the Chinese stuff has come so far in quality and the higher end stuff has mostly stayed the same or only slightly improved. At the high end of things regardless of the object even large improvements often only offer diminishing returns.

There is nothing wrong with your S&B 5-25x56 scopes with the excellent P4FL reticle.
That being said, for the price they want for a brand new one, I'd probably seriously consider a TT, ZCO or March scope.

If you are into playing the PRS games, then you might find that some of the new, more cluttered, cool and fancy reticles are of use as quite often various gaming stages are setup to be better done with specific complicated reticles.

For F class shooting, I think you'll find it's still an excellent reticle, it's also excellent if you are doing most of your shooting at the upper end of the magnification range.

All that being said, generally, the folks that are comparing their sub $2k (new MSRP) to the S&B 5-25x56 are simply trying to make themselves feel better about their purchase.

You can get the reticle on your S&B scope changed out, if you really need a gaming friendly scope, but usually it's more cost effective to sell the scope and buy another used one with the reticle you want.

Only your eye knows.

When a guy says his scope is better or worse…put both rifles side by side looking at the same target and same power

what does YOUR eye tell you

If anything I’d choose different than a SB for Fclass if your up against the weight limit etc.
You don’t need illumination and such which saves weight.

Other than that if you can’t shoot the difference tell them kick rocks.

If you can shoot the difference …is it worth it to spend money.

I have a SB 5-45 and a match HM 10-60
The Schmidt is slightly brighter above 35x

I personally don’t care about turret feel for bench shooting, your not spinning turrets from one fclass 1000k to the next

It cost companies like that a lot of free and discounted scopes to get people to say that. I bet Vortex comps more scopes in a day than a Schmidt does in a decade.

SB is outdated in the sense they tunnel like a bitch on the low end. On the flip side they will kick vortex, Burris and Bushnell ass in all other aspects of being an optic. I hope this helps.

I love my S&B, especially when everyone using the other "Top Brands" cannot distinguish the targets in the trees; it's right there, how do you not see it?

Outdated? Possibly, yes. Trash? Absolutely not.

brianf said:

Only your eye knows.

When a guy says his scope is better or worse…put both rifles side by side looking at the same target and same power

what does YOUR eye tell you

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I would add to this to make sure the diopter is setup properly on both scopes, more often than not someone looks through another shooter's scope and says "I don't like the image" and they fiddle with the side focus (parallax) but can't get it to look "right". I have done a lot of scope tests over the years and some included some shooting buddies and I always have to adjust the diopter to my eye after they've adjusted for their's (yes, the diopter does more than get the reticle in focus so it's important to set it correctly).

In summary, if you have an opportunity to look through someone else's scope ask them if you can adjust the diopter to your eye, if not realize the image may not be all it could be and don't disregard the scope simply because it didn't look "good" in that situation.

For the OP, others have already mentioned some of the shortcomings of the PM II 5-25 as it is a 10+ year old design; however, if the shortcomings (like tunneling and reticle) do not affect your needs, then it is still one of the best scopes out there - optically many scopes pale in comparison.

Tritiumdials said:

Wait until you hear about what @Perceptiv has to say about how much better TT is than your boomer S&B.

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Don’t be mad cause you can’t afford either.

M4guru said:

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True story. Come on over to the Arken thread if you need proof. Full disclosure, most on the thread don’t act this way but there’s a couple morons.

Maybe not the latest and greatest but hardly outdated nor trash.

The 3-20x50 PM2 non ultrashort is my all time favorite piece of glass, unreal clarity & field of view is awesome. However, they’ve priced themselves out of contention across the PM2 line nowadays when you can buy a ZCO or TT for the same price basically.

I love my PMII 3-27HP. I don't notice any tunneling in it but then again I'm not well versed in scope stuff. I watched, I think Arken's, video on tunneling then tested mine and didn't see what they were detailing in the video. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

cjs88 said:

I love my PMII 3-27HP. I don't notice any tunneling in it but then again I'm not well versed in scope stuff. I watched, I think Arken's, video on tunneling then tested mine and didn't see what they were detailing in the video. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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That model doesn't do it. The 5-25 does.

Supersubes said:

That model doesn't do it. The 5-25 does.

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Why is that?

The 5-25x is an older design that tunnels on the low end. The 3-27x and Ultra Short series are newer designs that don’t tunnel.

There is no new 5-25 design yet?

Do people really shoot it below 8x on a 5-25? You can barely even see the reticle at that power. It's not even a factor for me. But I guess if you want to be poors and complain about something, I guess they can have something to hang their hat on?

True. On mine at 3x looks it like there is no reticle

Bacarrat said:

Do people really shoot it below 8x on a 5-25? You can barely even see the reticle at that power. It's not even a factor for me. But I guess if you want to be poors and complain about something, I guess they can have something to hang their hat on?

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Maybe somebody actually uses their scope at the lowest setting and has a valid reason to have some kind of gripe, but for me, the only time I'm at 5x is when I need to get the rifle lined up in the general direction and then I'm dialing up to at least 15x or so.

cjs88 said:

There is no new 5-25 design yet?

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The only update on the 5-25x over the years has been turrets and reticles. The High Power and Ultra Short series are new designs with different internals. Case in point, have a look at their scopes with the newer multiturn turrets with 0.05mil click values. These models tend to have more available elevation range than the double-turn models:

3-27x with old DT = 26 mils
3-27x with newer DT = 35 mils
3-27 with newer MTC = 39.5 mils

Now look at the 5-25x with these newer turrets: still stuck at 26mils.

5-25 pm2
Design intent was: specific to
AI-AW super magmum 338 Lapua
40 Moa base standard
Range 800-1500 meters
27 in barrel, etc

Stop being poor and match guns to scopes.

If you are shooting 20 in ar10 ss DMR use 2.5-20, 3-20 or 4-20 ultra short designed for wide open an NV use on shorter barrel than 25-27 inch.

If you are throwing $5/rnd ammo downrange 1600 yds you aren likely complaining about the 5-25 optics being used 90% in 12-25x mag range.

I find it amazing that someone that retarded was able to fill out a 4473.

Just tell them to shut their whore mouth.

Take your S&B optics down to Tijuana, check into a flop house, fuck some señoritas, don't pay, run for your life, leaving the optics behind. If you make it home, buy all new optics, don't hold back, you're alive damnit, go all out, but, make your neighbors pay for it -- it was all their fault anyway. That's how the cool guys in D.C. do it.

That’s the beauty of getting high end scopes. It’s almost like a investment. Cause no matter how long you have it, it’s still the same when you look through it. Never deteriorates. No need to upgrade, your S&B is still gtg. Well unless the scope is fucked up in some way.

Don't pay full price for one. I kept an eye out for a deal and bought a demo 5-25x56 PMII for $2600 with the p4f reticle. It wasn't made with prs comps in mind, it was made to kill bad guys at all corners of the earth. Mine is perfect for my 300 Norma where I can dial out past 2000 yards with "only" 26 mils. It all depends on your intended use. For some reason it seems prs has become the single performance metric for whether or not equipment is good for anything.

I wouldn’t pay full retail for an S&B these days, but they’re far, FAR from being “trash.” I’ve owned a 4-16x42 PMII and a 5-25x56 PMII, and LOVED both. If I had one complaint for the 5-25x it was that I found click spacing to be a little tighter than I liked (I had the DT turrets). Of the two, I most regret selling the 4-16x42. They’re phenomenal optics and don’t surface very often.

But unless I had a very specific reason for wanting one or came across one at a smoking good deal, they wouldn’t be super high on my list for a new optic. For what they want new/retail, I’d absolutely go ZCO or TT. YMMV. But if you already have them and like them, rock ‘em. They certainly won’t be the cause of any shots you may miss!

I definitely wouldn't say S&B are "outdated trash". Most of the other higher end optics manufactures have been innovating over the last 20 years or so. S&B have rested on their laurels a bit. Especially with with PMII.

My 1st High end optic was a 5-25x56 PM2 I bought in 2008 with my Blaser Tac 2. Still have both optic and rifle today. Would I buy another PM2 today with what is currently on offer in the market? Probably not. But they are still a relevant and tough optic built for a purpose.

cjs88 said:

True. On mine at 3x looks it like there is no reticle

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Confession time - I once was big on the Horus H58/H59 reticles. Bought a few S&B 5-25s and felt like these were pretty awesome scopes, so then I picked up a 3-20 with the H59 to throw on a gas gun. Huge mistake - because that reticle lacks the heavy horizontal outer crosshairs of newer designs like the Mil-XT, and because there wasn't really any distinctive vertical crosshair (in fact, there's nothing at all in the top half), it was completely fucking useless below 7-8x. This only got worse in low light, and the illumination of the older Horus reticles left a lot to be desired. It was the sole reason that I sold that scope, and it was 100% my fault for picking the wrong reticle for the job.

I'd be happy to run a 5-25 or 3-20 with a MSR or P4 reticle in applications where I wasn't expected to hit multiple targets at varying ranges under the clock. They are superb scopes, and while the gap has closed relative to cheaper options, it's not because the PMII has gotten objectively worse over time.

Should have told me this before I picked up another S&b 3-20 yesterday!

My 5-25x56 PM2 with MSR reticle is not going anywhere anytime soon. Thats for sure.

cjs88 said:

There is no new 5-25 design yet?

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Hmmm.
Wonder what this may be eluding to?

ZCO > NF > Bender


My eyes couldn’t stand that brown tinted glass had a 5-25 and 5-45

When S&B decided that Euro was the only game in town it kind of killed it for me. Not a knock on Euro by any means, I’ve bought many things form them including an AT and they’re stand up dudes. My go to was Doug over at Camera Land, & I don’t like being painted into a corner on who I have to purchase from. Used in the classifieds is the way to go now IMO.

When Mile High blew out their S&B inventory a few years back I bought like 5 5-25 PMIIs for 1900-2200 new. It was glorious. I vaguely remembered S&B making a big deal about dropping the price on the basic versions of the 5-25 a few years back but it looks like the price got ratcheted back up.

The 525 is def outperformed but I don't think anything touches the 520 US with dtii+ turrets.

By far my fav scope for gassers and a close second for everything else

M4guru said:

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Being a poor person this is slightly offensive. But then again the truth sometimes hurts.

They aren't trash. They are high-quality scopes. But their designs are a bit dated compared to what's come out in the past 5-7 years.

deersniper said:

ZCO > NF > Bender


My eyes couldn’t stand that brown tinted glass had a 5-25 and 5-45

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Thank you! Someone else noticed that yellow/brown/vermillion colored tinted glass. That stuff looks terrible through my eyes.