MDT Electronic Trigger - Zero Stage

Neat!

I saw this on @Feniks Technologies IG. I wasn’t all that interested. I thought it was something that only worked with a LabRadar I’m still moderately interested. I signed up to beta test.

I remember when Remington built the Etronix too. The whole premise was decreased lock times and noone could even tell then. Battery changes were a pain in the ass as you had to remove the butt plate to get to it. Hope it works out for them and that it ends up being a proven design. I see something else that's destined to fail with any real world water intrusion.

Done right there should be none of the reliability or safety concerns I've heard so often.

Electronics can be exceptionally safe, and just like industrial 3d printing, consumers are becoming much more accepting of new tech.

BADASS!

About time. There will be naysayers because it’s electronic, but there will also be advantages for those willing to accept the quirks of an electronic system.

This could be a huge leap forward in safety and reliability if done right. I’m assuming they’re using a load cell of sorts to sense pressure on the trigger. So theoretically you could have a 0.25 ounce trigger that is still drop safe and has a lot of sear engagement.

Is this part of the drive toward "smart guns?"

diverdon said:

Is this part of the drive toward "smart guns?"

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slippery slope for sure.

I'm a little out of the loop as to how they can adjust the 'trigger pull". It's got wires, it's a switch. On/off that's it. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it.

A.Huggy said:

About time. There will be naysayers because it’s electronic, but there will also be advantages for those willing to accept the quirks of an electronic system.

This could be a huge leap forward in safety and reliability if done right. I’m assuming they’re using a load cell of sorts to sense pressure on the trigger. So theoretically you could have a 0.25 ounce trigger that is still drop safe and has a lot of sear engagement.

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And I'm am a bit of a skeptic. But generally because someone is creating a "fix" for a problem that lies with the shooter. Even @lowlight has said that dropping trigger pull is a result of poor shooting form and an inability to fix that issue, so they compensate. (very loose quoting)

When they can get their flagship (Labradar) running flawlessly, I might take notice.

Can we discuss the new zero touch free recoil techniques?

Maxduty said:

I'm a little out of the loop as to how they can adjust the 'trigger pull". It's got wires, it's a switch. On/off that's it. Maybe I'm oversimplifying it.

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Think of the trigger as a load sensing lever. When the load on the lever reaches the pre-determined amount, the sear disengages, but the trigger doesn't actually move.

hlee said:

Think of the trigger as a load sensing lever. When the load on the lever reaches the pre-determined amount, the sear disengages, but the trigger doesn't actually move.

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Exactly, now remove the sear, apply the charge through the "firing pin" to the electronic primer and Remingtons Extronx is alive again. I applaud the effort and even owned on the the first rifles ( a 22-250 with SN 429) but soon just got frustrated with it. It left me a with a bad impression of trying to make something better that may not need to be fixed in the first place. Hell, I've still got ammo here for it.

Maxduty said:

I see something else that's destined to fail with any real world water intrusion.

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Eh, small electronics package can be easily potted. Easily done.

Maxduty said:

I'm a little out of the loop as to how they can adjust the 'trigger pull".

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Uh, electronic scales and such...including the zero function....do something similar.

Well dang...next step is to get rid of the trigger shoe and replace it with a push button at the end of some length of wiring. Get rid of that pulled shot from bad trigger press! haha

Cheers

hlee said:

Think of the trigger as a load sensing lever. When the load on the lever reaches the pre-determined amount, the sear disengages, but the trigger doesn't actually move.

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Thank you. It works like a scale (Chargemaster, etc). You set pull weight to 6 oz. If it detects a force on the trigger above 6 oz, it drops the sear.
Add a capacitive touch sensor to the trigger shoe and now you can add control logic to make it drop safe.
Accelerometers and math may be able to do the same thing. With an accelerometer you could also scale pull weight depending on the rifle’s orientation.

You could really go down the rabbit hole figuring out all of the constraints and variables. But that’s MDT and LR’s job. I respect everyone’s skepticism but I also respect innovation. There are many accounts of mechanical trigger failures on this forum. Most of those accounts occur in dusty environments. A trigger with fewer moving parts sounds like a good idea in that case.

A.Huggy said:

Thank you. It works like a scale (Chargemaster, etc). You set pull weight to 6 oz. If it detects a force on the trigger above 6 oz, it drops the sear.
Add a capacitive touch sensor to the trigger shoe and now you can add control logic to make it drop safe.
Accelerometers and math may be able to do the same thing. With an accelerometer you could also scale pull weight depending on the rifle’s orientation.

You could really go down the rabbit hole figuring out all of the constraints and variables. But that’s MDT and LR’s job. I respect everyone’s skepticism but I also respect innovation. There are many accounts of mechanical trigger failures on this forum. Most of those accounts occur in dusty environments. A trigger with fewer moving parts sounds like a good idea in that case.

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So how does the sear drop if there is no trigger movement? I'm genuinely curious? Is this electronically controlled as well?

Maxduty said:

So how does the sear drop if there is no trigger movement? I'm genuinely curious? Is this electronically controlled as well?

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Solenoid actuated

I think that it's cool that people are trying new things like this- I'm usually a little slow to adopt things like this so never get to have the newest cool feature but usually don't get burned either.

But-- wouldn't your bad habits from a regular trigger carry over to this? The trigger may not move but you would still learn it-- so if you had a flinch then it wouldn't change? All the things that you do wrong with a normal trigger seem like they could be done on this design as well.

SmartDonkey said:

I think that it's cool that people are trying new things like this- I'm usually a little slow to adopt things like this so never get to have the newest cool feature but usually don't get burned either.

But-- wouldn't your bad habits from a regular trigger carry over to this? The trigger may not move but you would still learn it-- so if you had a flinch then it wouldn't change? All the things that you do wrong with a normal trigger seem like they could be done on this design as well.

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Proper trigger technique isn't the goal here. Nearly infinite adjustment, and insanely light triggers with lots of sear engagement are the possibilities.

You're still on the hook for shooting fundamentals, but the trigger itself will be less limited.

Paintball markers have had solenoid triggers for a while and it'd be interesting to see if they include some of the same adjustments such as denounce.

I had not seen this product announcement.

My recollection of Remington's misadventure with an electronic ignition system was that it involved special primers and there was no conventional spring driven firing pin. The primer was activated not by kinetic energy but electrically. Of course, this was a huge departure but made for zero moving parts during ignition and that was it's hook. Ammo companies mostly didn't go for it, ignition was not as reliable as it should have been, primers were expensive and not widely available, and so the concept flopped.

What MDT / Labradar is doing here looks more similar to the Walther's e-triggers. These are common in their competition offerings now though I understand that the first iteration was an utter disaster. These triggers utilize as conventional firing pin on conventional ammo. Only the trigger is electric. I am told people love these triggers but I found the feel spongy and icky. It was a long way from the Bix'n Andy tacsport pro that I consider the gold standard of feel.

I find the zero movement aspect of this MDT / Labradar "zero stage" interesting. It is much the opposite of European style competition triggers like the Bix which have no over-travel stop with the idea that, on a light trigger, the rifle will experiance the smallest possible disturbance during the break with no stop because the force on the trigger will change little moving with little disturbance past the break. I wonder how easy it will be to time a clean break with a zero movement trigger. I have grown to like best 2 stages with a heavier first stage and a very light second. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 12oz /4oz. It's a 1lb trigger that feels like a 4oz one, only steadier. I'm not sure how I would feel about a 16oz trigger that didn't move at all. Not sure how well I would be able to time a clean release. I wonder if folks will like it set super light as a don't touch at all until you release type thing. Not exactly kosher, but it is pretty much what the BR guys do very carefully and I understand giving a little slap on a trigger with almost non-existant pull weight instead of a carefully modulated squeeze is a popular tactic in some other shooting sports. As for the reliability, safety, and weather resistance. I see potential both for pluses and minuses. Certainly many light mechanical triggers I have tried are nowhere close to drop safe and certainly mechanical triggers get gummed up, wear out, or otherwise fail. Electric mechanisms can definitely be long lasting. My gaming mouse probably has more actuations on the fire key than all triggers of every member of SnipersHide combined with no issues yet, they can also short out with one drop of liquid as my last keyboard died when my wife burrowed it and spilled her drink on it.

I guess I find this all an interesting development. Maybe I'll sign up to beta.

Electronic triggers have been used for many years in air rifle (10 m) and 22lr (50 m) precision shooting, check Walter and Anschütz for example, and works very well.

Personal opinion: For target shooting I.e. controlled environment, yes. For hunting and other uses, no.

Tyler Kemp said:

Proper trigger technique isn't the goal here. Nearly infinite adjustment, and insanely light triggers with lots of sear engagement are the possibilities.

You're still on the hook for shooting fundamentals, but the trigger itself will be less limited.

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MK bullpup with electronic trigger . No linkage to deal with or hide.

It's too bad LabRadar won't spend time improving the Chrono app instead of coming up with some other gizmo.

Can’t wait to see the ATF overreach and say since there isn’t a trigger pull then it’s not a firearm or it’s a firearm that has to be registered under NFA.

ShtrRdy said:

It's too bad LabRadar won't spend time improving the Chrono app instead of coming up with some other gizmo.

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Funny, I feel that it's too bad MDT can't build a decent looking chassis or one that works with long action Tikkas using longer CIP mags.

ShtrRdy said:

It's too bad LabRadar won't spend time improving the Chrono app instead of coming up with some other gizmo.

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No shit. They could reply to a few emails while they're at it too.

Evintos said:

Paintball markers have had solenoid triggers for a while and it'd be interesting to see if they include some of the same adjustments such as denounce.

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Debounce will not be a factor in a bolt action in the slightest.
Also, a solenoid diverts a fluid of one type or another from one side of a valve to another. If this is a servo activated sear, it’s nothing like a paintball gun trigger, which do pivot on a hinge, and activate a micro switch.

Tokay444 said:

Also, a solenoid diverts a fluid of one type or another from one side of a valve to another.

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It can but not necessarily. In essence, it’s just a magneticlly powered actuator. What it actuates is kind of wide open.

Baron23 said:

It can but not necessarily. In essence, it’s just a magneticlly powered actuator. What it actuates is kind of wide open.

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Sure. What’s it do in a paintball marker?

Tokay444 said:

Sure. What’s it do in a paintball marker?

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Couldn't possibly tell you. If you meant the fluid valve was in respect to paintball guns, then I misunderstood.

But I read it as a general definition of solenoid.

Cheers and have a great rest of your night.

Tokay444 said:

Debounce will not be a factor in a bolt action in the slightest.
Also, a solenoid diverts a fluid of one type or another from one side of a valve to another. If this is a servo activated sear, it’s nothing like a paintball gun trigger, which do pivot on a hinge, and activate a micro switch.

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According to the description in the OP it's an electronic solenoid for the sear control. Debounce is gonna be a potential issue unless they restrict trigger travel, weight adjustment (description says starting at 2oz pull weight though), or use use some form of microswitch that is insensitive, otherwise vibration like from drops, bumpy road, running, banging against barricades, etc will send false signals, leading to the sear dropping inadvertently.

Edit - could they have meant servo instead of a solenoid? Maybe.

Maxduty said:

Exactly, now remove the sear, apply the charge through the "firing pin" to the electronic primer and Remingtons Extronx is alive again. I applaud the effort and even owned on the the first rifles ( a 22-250 with SN 429) but soon just got frustrated with it. It left me a with a bad impression of trying to make something better that may not need to be fixed in the first place. Hell, I've still got ammo here for it.

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The difference is that etronx needed it's own special snowflake primers. This one works with any primer

Tokay444 said:

Sure. What’s it do in a paintball marker?

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Doesn't matter.

Evintos said:

According to the description in the OP it's an electronic solenoid for the sear control. Debounce is gonna be a potential issue unless they restrict trigger travel, weight adjustment (description says starting at 2oz pull weight though), or use use some form of microswitch that is insensitive, otherwise vibration like from drops, bumpy road, running, banging against barricades, etc will send false signals, leading to the sear dropping inadvertently.

Edit - could they have meant servo instead of a solenoid? Maybe.

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That's what a safety is for isn't?

I imagine this might be a fail safe linear solenoid and the safety just completely isolates it electrically

ShtrRdy said:

It's too bad LabRadar won't spend time improving the Chrono app instead of coming up with some other gizmo.

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New iOS version has been out for a few weeks now. Given the now visible version history, would have been nice for them to make those test builds more available, but despite appearances they were working on it.

lowlight said:

We have already had electronic triggers in the past,

as well the Tracking Point Device was an electronic trigger that "released" only when the reticle was in the correct place

The safety will depend on how and when it breaks and how the user interfaces with it

What I would try if I was working this project is the opposite action, on the lightest setting have it fire on release, not press

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This and incorporate an internal level...

Does it have programmed waveform haptic simulated break?

Evintos said:

According to the description in the OP it's an electronic solenoid for the sear control. Debounce is gonna be a potential issue unless they restrict trigger travel, weight adjustment (description says starting at 2oz pull weight though), or use use some form of microswitch that is insensitive, otherwise vibration like from drops, bumpy road, running, banging against barricades, etc will send false signals, leading to the sear dropping inadvertently.

Edit - could they have meant servo instead of a solenoid? Maybe.

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How will a potential lack of debounce setting have any affect on a gun that can only fire a single shot that is manually chambered?

has bluetooth and iphone app ?

MarkyMark007 said:

has bluetooth and iphone app ?

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You just stick to finding out who makes the things company owners tell you they make themselves.

never trust american company by word...

This looks pretty interesting. Without seeing the design my only concern would be for safety. Not sure how the load cell is designed or how robust the connections will be in the circuit.

I'm interested, I saw the "lab radar electronic trigger" thread and just assumed it was another accessory for it. I had a Remington Etronix rifle also. This is a different route, I'm interested. There has been 20+ years since Etronix. Solid state electronics are better and can handle the environment and forces that would be exposed to.

6.5SH said:

Labradar - Apps on Google Play

Application to view and manage shots data captured by a Labradar device

play.google.com

New iOS version has been out for a few weeks now. Given the now visible version history, would have been nice for them to make those test builds more available, but despite appearances they were working on it.

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New app, same shit..

Ymmv.

Tokay444 said:

How will a potential lack of debounce setting have any affect on a gun that can only fire a single shot that is manually chambered?

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The problem will present itself with vibration or action cycling after a single round fired. The jolt from closing the action can lead to a slam fire if the sensitivity isn't reduced with a correspondingly low trigger weight adjustment to filter out the vibration noise from simply moving the bolt back and forward. This will result in a sear drop slam fire.

The alternative would be to put the firearm on safe after every single shot, if the safety is an electrical isolation type.

I doubt vibration itself is enough but sensors and load cells fail. They can give erratic readings for a number of reasons. Would be interested in learning how they tackled this risk and convinced the lawyers it’s all good

drwood96 said:

MK bullpup with electronic trigger . No linkage to deal with or hide.

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I see we both have some high-class neurons at work here.