Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Seized his guns too for being a hero. Didn't even kill the guy, of course if he did then I suspect that the Farmington Police Chief would compare him to Hitler, further vilify him, and make a push to install the Death Penalty just for him.

What a thank you.

Anyone know a lawyer in NH who could do Pro Bono work for this guy?

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Another great example of how a little common sense got steamrolled by the ridiculous legal system. Now we're gonna tie up time in the courts as well as having Deputy Fyfe filling out paperwork about Grandpa the evil felon, instead he could be out citing people for important stuff like using their cell phones....oh no that's right he should have been out patrolling the neighborhood where the original crime was being committed then none of this would happened in the first place!!!

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

And now I feel my blood pressure rising. Sickening. Prevent a crime, go to jail. Why aren't there more police officers in jail then..? (This is not a bash against cops, love you guys, it's just an analogy)

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Why I always have a clean throw down knife with me

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

And the lawyers' income rolls in.....

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

The people of NH need to stand up and protect him now that he protected them - the only reason this shit happens is because we allow it to - we should not blame the system - we should blame ourselves for not correcting it

As a resident of PA i dont believe i have much say in this situation but if something like this happened in my county or a neighboring county i would help out via whatever method i seen fit - even if it meant showing up to the court case pleading for the judge to use common sense and work to fix these retarded rules

edit : could request for a jury and inform the jury about "jury nullification"

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

LMAO! Time to change their motto.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the lawyers' income rolls in.....</div></div>


Wasn't a lawyer that arrested him. Not likely that the cop thought to himself "I can feather some lawyer's pocket by making this bullshit arrest". Who are you going to call when the government misuses your legal system? An armed insurrection doesn't seem appropriate here. Complaining about this poor guy having to retain counsel is like blaming the plumber for the leak. With that said, unless there is something more (and lord knows that news media never leave out facts) this, on the basis of the facts presented, is a bullshit arrest.

The New Hampshire criminal code defines the crime charged as follows:

631:3 Reckless Conduct. –
I. A person is guilty of reckless conduct if he recklessly engages in conduct which places or may place another in danger of serious bodily injury

The New Hampshire legislature defines "recklessly" as

(c) “Recklessly.” A person acts recklessly with respect to a material element of an offense when he is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the circumstances known to him, its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the situation.

They have even defined "serious bodily injury"

VI. “Serious bodily injury” means any harm to the body which causes severe, permanent or protracted loss of or impairment to the health or of the function of any part of the body


Now that we know what the law is, if we plug the facts, that have been given to us, into those definitions it appears that there is no basis for the arrest. Either there is something that we are not being told or this officer, or his department, has some agenda. (Anti-gun?) If these indeed are the facts, the matter should be able to be handled with one phone call to the local prosecutor's office.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

It amazes me, you all know how absolutely hose shit the media is, yet your not stopping for one second to think there could be more to this story. Stop being fucking sheep. We see it day in and day out of how news media purposely leaves particular details out as it builds a better story for them to spew. Yet so many folks especially on here are to quick to forget that and jump on the band wagon. Just amazing...

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

"It's for the worms."

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunman_7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It amazes me, you all know how absolutely hose shit the media is, yet your not stopping for one second to think there could be more to this story. Stop being fucking sheep. We see it day in and day out of how news media purposely leaves particular details out as it builds a better story for them to spew. Yet so many folks especially on here are to quick to forget that and jump on the band wagon. Just amazing... </div></div>

What other facts could have been presented that would change our collective disgust in what happened?? The story sounds pretty straight forward.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Unless his bullet went astray and hit someone or destroyed someones property, I don't see how he did anything illegal, its a travesty that he was arrested, if this was a sane society he would have been rewarded for being a hero, it almost seems as though justice isn't welcome in this country anymore.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Actually, do this in most states, you will get arrested. Shooting the gun in the ground here would be felony misuse of a firearm.

His role as a civilian was to report in to the cops, give them a good description, maybe shine a light on him, let the fool know that he was seen. There were other options for that homeowner - whose home wasn't even the one the guy was in. No one was in danger at the time, according to the story. There was no justification for use of deadly force, which is what a firearm is.

In this case, the firearm was used in the ground. Had he shot the guy, you could argue it would have been prosecuted as a homicide. You CANNOT defend property crimes - particularly when the property being defended is not yours - with deadly force in most states.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, do this in most states, you will get arrested. Shooting the gun in the ground here would be felony misuse of a firearm.

His role as a civilian was to report in to the cops, give them a good description, maybe shine a light on him, let the fool know that he was seen. There were other options for that homeowner - whose home wasn't even the one the guy was in. No one was in danger at the time, according to the story. There was no justification for use of deadly force, which is what a firearm is.

In this case, the firearm was used in the ground. Had he shot the guy, you could argue it would have been prosecuted as a homicide. You CANNOT defend property crimes - particularly when the property being defended is not yours - with deadly force in most states.</div></div>

even in Oklahoma...were you CAN defend property crimes... firing the gun into the ground would possibly get you arrested...

if I catch someone breaking into my vehicle.for example, here, I can confront them w/ a firearm, but I'm specifically prohibitted from firing "warning shots", which is what this guy did.

then whole "report in to the cops" thing is bullshit, America has a long and supported history of citizen's arrestin most states it's a right...

but if you fire a shot, as a civilian or LE, you better damn well be in fear of death or grievious bodily harm... not just "showing him you're serious"... so just by the act of firing into the ground, this guy blew any defense he had for firing.

he was poorly trained, poorly versed in the law, and he fucked up.

I have VERY little sympathy for him

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, do this in most states, you will get arrested. Shooting the gun in the ground here would be felony misuse of a firearm.

His role as a civilian was to report in to the cops, give them a good description, maybe shine a light on him, let the fool know that he was seen. There were other options for that homeowner - whose home wasn't even the one the guy was in. No one was in danger at the time, according to the story. There was no justification for use of deadly force, which is what a firearm is.

In this case, the firearm was used in the ground. Had he shot the guy, you could argue it would have been prosecuted as a homicide. You CANNOT defend property crimes - particularly when the property being defended is not yours - with deadly force in most states.</div></div>

even in Oklahoma...were you CAN defend property crimes... firing the gun into the ground would possibly get you arrested...

if I catch someone breaking into my vehicle.for example, here, I can confront them w/ a firearm, but I'm specifically prohibitted from firing "warning shots", which is what this guy did.

then whole "report in to the cops" thing is bullshit, America has a long and supported history of citizen's arrestin most states it's a right...

but if you fire a shot, as a civilian or LE, you better damn well be in fear of death or grievious bodily harm... not just "showing him you're serious"... so just by the act of firing into the ground, this guy blew any defense he had for firing.

he was poorly trained, poorly versed in the law, and he fucked up.

I have VERY little sympathy for him </div></div>

Regardless of what the you or the law says, In this case you are both <span style="color: #FF0000">WRONG</span>! Morally and Ethically. It is unfortunate that there are as many fools making ridiculous laws and as many supporting them, that doing the right thing is no longer smiled upon. I hope this poor old man was smart enough to lawyer up without saying a thing.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Regardless of what the you or the law says, In this case you are both <span style="color: #FF0000">WRONG</span>! Morally and Ethically. It is unfortunate that there are as many fools making ridiculous laws and as many supporting them, that doing the right thing is no longer smiled upon. I hope this poor old man was smart enough to lawyer up without saying a thing. </div></div>

Was shooting the ground the right thing to do? What other options did he have?

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Put me on the jury and he walks.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Oddball-6 is right... If he discharged a firearm, there is little or no doubt that the gentleman will be arrested, processed and possibly charged. It's not at the officers discretion... It's at the discretion of the State's Attorney.

We can't respond to a scene... find a guy with a smoking gun standing there... and simply say "oh, ok. You are a hero. You are free to go." At very LEAST that decision will be made at the department and after some significant questions being asked. And the SA will be notified under any circumstance to make the ultimate decision. In a perfect world, at the end of the process, the individual is cleared and sent home to a heroes welcome.

But that isn't a foregone conclusion!

Hopefully, this gentleman will have charges dropped. That IS the right thing to do, IMHO. As far as I am concerned, the man above is a credit to his community.

But this is an object lesson for those who choose to defend themselves and their property with any weapon. Even when you are completely in the right morally (and even legally) ... the consequences are almost never minor.

Presenting yourself with a firearm, and discharging it, are going to get you into the legal system.

And even if it doesn't get you charged by your local DA/SA... there have been cases where the "poor perp who was breaking into the house" has sued the intervening homeowner/neighbor for emotional distress... even when the Sierra Bravo was not shot. There was one of those cases in our own state! Homeowner brandished a firearm, and was sued because it caused emotional distress to the poor perp.

Again, I don't like it. As both an LEO and as a firm supporter of the 2nd Amendment... I am appalled by it. But that's the world we live in right now.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

This is yet another example of why it's important to know the law <span style="text-decoration: underline">before</span> you arm yourself in an effort to make yourself feel safer. Because the gun is only a tool; it's the mind that is the weapon. Easy as it is to grab a gun, it's easier still to get only yourself in trouble by using it improperly. Using a gun as a deterrent is always a bad idea. And possession of a weapon is never to be mistaken for competence using it.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

This whole thread is stupid. This guy did the right thing...what law is he breaking? Why is it illegal to shoot a firearm into the ground? Who makes the decision that this guy did something worth being arrested for?

Using a gun as a deterrent is a bad idea? WTF? Thats the reason they exist.

The only mistake this guy made was talking to cops, which is never a good idea under any circumstance.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

I am not arguing right or wrong, my point is that one ignores the law at one's own risk. And guns don't exist to scare people, although they do scare some people.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This whole thread is stupid. This guy did the right thing...what law is he breaking? Why is it illegal to shoot a firearm into the ground? Who makes the decision that this guy did something worth being arrested for?

Using a gun as a deterrent is a bad idea? WTF? Thats the reason they exist.

The only mistake this guy made was talking to cops, which is never a good idea under any circumstance.</div></div>

And if you follow this advice, I hope you never have an encounter where you have to apply it because you stand a good chance of going to the pokey. Along with the right of bearing arms, comes the responsibility of using those arms in a way that does not harm others. You have no more right to infringe on my right to be safe in my home, if I am the guy 2 doors down in this situation, than I have to try to keep you from having a rifle, pistol, whatever.

YOU should know your state's laws for when use of deadly force is authorized and when it is not. I know that the statute for use of force in defense of person in colorado is CRS 18-1-704. I don't have to look it up. I know that it is in defense of persons, and I know that its criteria governs whether a shoot under the earlier sections (for example defense of property) is justified. E.g. Use of deadly force in defense of property is justified in the state of Colorado ONLY when it is also in conjunction with a reasonable belief that a person is about to be killed or imperiled in some serious way.

I also have the responsibility to know that defense of home has a modification that is specific to Colorado under 18-1-704.5 which modifies the criteria and circumstances under which I can use such force to defend my family. One of the criteria of which is that the intruder is on my real property. Another is that made a use of force - no matter how slight.

Were I to fire a round into the ground here, I would probably be pursued under felony misuse of a firearm or at the ABSOLUTE least, unlawful discharge of a firearm within the city limits, a municipal offense.

New Hampshire has similar laws.
The authorization for use of force in property offenses is under NH Revised Statutes 627:8.
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2010/titlelxii/chapter627/section627-8/

Clearly this doesnt qualify. Even if we could argue that he was acting to "retake his property immediately following its taking", he may still only use deadly force conditional to RSA 627:4.

Or you could make the argument that he wasn't using force against the person, but against the ground. That then is looked at under the laws that apply to firing the gun in the place and manner that he did so - which is what he was actually charged with.

He was charged with felony reckless conduct under NH RSA 631:3.
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2009/TITLELXII/CHAPTER631/631-3.html

It is made a felony because his use of his firearm complies with part 2: that he used a deadly weapon to "recklessly engage in conduct which places or MAY place another in danger of serious bodily injury." Note the may here. He did something without considered thought in a situation that the law does not provide a defense for the use of that weapon.

If I were an officer forced to consider this situation, would I want to arrest this person in this circumstance? Probably not. But at the end of the day, it IS his responsibility to know the law. I think it would be a very different thing were the burglar on his property. Were the burglar attacking him. Were the burglar EVEN shot by him in some kind of encounter at all.

But the fact is, he fired the gun into the ground, in a suburban area, without regard for what the consequences to others could have been. He did not do so in a way that the law provides an affirmative defense for.

And who knows? The officer may not have had a choice. This is [POTENTIALLY] a felony offense. Departmental policy in some local departments I know of out here takes away officer discretion if they have probable cause to believe a felony has been perpetrated by an individual. The language in those departments' policies indicate that the officer "Shall" make the arrest, which leaves them little leeway. It would be up to the DA whether to prosecute and up to the judge as to whether the case would go forward out here. But the officer would still have to do his/her job to make the arrest in the first place.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put me on the jury and he walks. </div></div>
I agree. This is out of hand.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

IF this occured on Thomas Paine's p roperty in say, 1790 what would the outcome be do you think?

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF this occured on Thomas Paine's p roperty in say, 1790 what would the outcome be do you think?

</div></div>

THe perp would have beat Thomas Payne to death with a stick while he reloaded his brown bess that was just discharged into the ground.

Seriously though, don't confuse and confound a great modern discussion and debate with the silly common sense of 18th and 19th century America.
Now back to the regularly scheduled, beating of our heads against this modern stump. We can't have a bright future looking to the past you know!

OH yeah PS: Those were very dangerous times with no police protection and highwaymen and robbers scattered all over the land, not to mention dangerous wild savages. sarcasm off

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF this occured on Thomas Paine's p roperty in say, 1790 what would the outcome be do you think? </div></div>A misfire, probably.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

This is what scares me about the NRA's hard on for showing how tough they are on crime when guns are involved. They try to win PR campaigns with a zero tolerance hard core attitude to win the hearts and minds of anti's, and attach this instant felony nonsense to every bill they can. Poor bastard. Doesn't seem too upset about it. Hope he walks.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This whole thread is stupid. This guy did the right thing...what law is he breaking? Why is it illegal to shoot a firearm into the ground? Who makes the decision that this guy did something worth being arrested for?

Using a gun as a deterrent is a bad idea? WTF? Thats the reason they exist.

The only mistake this guy made was talking to cops, which is never a good idea under any circumstance.</div></div>

And if you follow this advice, I hope you never have an encounter where you have to apply it because you stand a good chance of going to the pokey. Along with the right of bearing arms, comes the responsibility of using those arms in a way that does not harm others. You have no more right to infringe on my right to be safe in my home, if I am the guy 2 doors down in this situation, than I have to try to keep you from having a rifle, pistol, whatever.

YOU should know your state's laws for when use of deadly force is authorized and when it is not. I know that the statute for use of force in defense of person in colorado is CRS 18-1-704. I don't have to look it up. I know that it is in defense of persons, and I know that its criteria governs whether a shoot under the earlier sections (for example defense of property) is justified. E.g. Use of deadly force in defense of property is justified in the state of Colorado ONLY when it is also in conjunction with a reasonable belief that a person is about to be killed or imperiled in some serious way.

I also have the responsibility to know that defense of home has a modification that is specific to Colorado under 18-1-704.5 which modifies the criteria and circumstances under which I can use such force to defend my family. One of the criteria of which is that the intruder is on my real property. Another is that made a use of force - no matter how slight.

Were I to fire a round into the ground here, I would probably be pursued under felony misuse of a firearm or at the ABSOLUTE least, unlawful discharge of a firearm within the city limits, a municipal offense.

New Hampshire has similar laws.
The authorization for use of force in property offenses is under NH Revised Statutes 627:8.
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2010/titlelxii/chapter627/section627-8/

Clearly this doesnt qualify. Even if we could argue that he was acting to "retake his property immediately following its taking", he may still only use deadly force conditional to RSA 627:4.

Or you could make the argument that he wasn't using force against the person, but against the ground. That then is looked at under the laws that apply to firing the gun in the place and manner that he did so - which is what he was actually charged with.

He was charged with felony reckless conduct under NH RSA 631:3.
http://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2009/TITLELXII/CHAPTER631/631-3.html

It is made a felony because his use of his firearm complies with part 2: that he used a deadly weapon to "recklessly engage in conduct which places or MAY place another in danger of serious bodily injury." Note the may here. He did something without considered thought in a situation that the law does not provide a defense for the use of that weapon.

If I were an officer forced to consider this situation, would I want to arrest this person in this circumstance? Probably not. But at the end of the day, it IS his responsibility to know the law. I think it would be a very different thing were the burglar on his property. Were the burglar attacking him. Were the burglar EVEN shot by him in some kind of encounter at all.

But the fact is, he fired the gun into the ground, in a suburban area, without regard for what the consequences to others could have been. He did not do so in a way that the law provides an affirmative defense for.

And who knows? The officer may not have had a choice. This is [POTENTIALLY] a felony offense. Departmental policy in some local departments I know of out here takes away officer discretion if they have probable cause to believe a felony has been perpetrated by an individual. The language in those departments' policies indicate that the officer "Shall" make the arrest, which leaves them little leeway. It would be up to the DA whether to prosecute and up to the judge as to whether the case would go forward out here. But the officer would still have to do his/her job to make the arrest in the first place.
</div></div>
How did the cops know he fired the weapon?

My guess is he talked to them and explained his common sense approach to the situation. In my mind the biggest mistake he made was talking to them at all. It will NEVER help you and can only hurt you. Ask most any leo they will tell you the same thing.

I do disagree with the use of warning shots as a tactical matter more than a legal one, but the law has truly been corrupted if this guy goes to jail. Where I live what he did is called being a good neighbor.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

There you go! A positive decision was reached after the DA reviewed the case!

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120223/NEWS03/120229969

Interesting read on a related subject.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/its-just-the-law/warning-shots/

Digging around for the Supreme Court decision on use of force by a private person to effect a citizens arrest. I know there is one, and its likely relevant to this guy getting off, and many of the discussions we had above.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

great news...

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Glad to see that it turn out right and level heads prevailed. Still WTF on the anxiety this caused the hero and his family.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

Wow!! The guy did nothing wrong. He caught a felon. He gets arrested for a chicken shit discharge of a weapon. Down here that's a class c misd. I'm surprised they didn't charge him with agg. Assault with a deadly weapon since he scared the shit out of the burger.

Burglars are hard to catch in the act. He should've been thanked not arrested. I cannot see any jury convicting him. The District Attorney should have the charges dropped otherwise he/she will face a lot more negative publicity. Luckily the DA made the right decision.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

This would not happen where I live. We would have given the guy a hand shake and said nice job.

Heck, he might get an award.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How did the cops know he fired the weapon?

My guess is he talked to them and explained his common sense approach to the situation. In my mind the biggest mistake he made was talking to them at all. It will NEVER help you and can only hurt you. Ask most any leo they will tell you the same thing.

</div></div>

For one... if the call came in as a 10-32 (man with gun) or involved the words "Shots fired"... the officer rolled into this situation was in high alert mode and could easily have had a weapon out. That has the potential for not ending well. And he or she isn't immediately going to assume that the guy w. the gun is 'the good guy.'

So first and foremost, the person will be disarmed, then cuffed, then made secure (not a threat to himself or others). And if he is pointing at the burglar hanging out of a window... that person will be arrested, too. And they'll be separated.

Then the business of sorting out the story can begin. But to think that the officers just came up and said 'hi, whatcha doing with that gun, Mr. Neighbor...?" is far-fetched.

And speaking as an LEO (since you asked...) NOT talking to an LEO isn't going to get you far. Especially when you are standing at a potential crime scene with a recently fired firearm. At that point... we're going to assume the worst.

Best bet is to tell the truth. If you want an attorney first... ask for one! It doesn't bother us. We're here to defend your rights... and your right to an attorney is utterly clear. If you want to talk at the scene... we're all ears. If you want to talk downtown... great. If you want to talk to an attorney... no problem.

But trying to tell people that "talking to the police is a mistake..." That just results in a community that thinks we are the enemy. We're not. And it makes for a community where the criminals can thrive, because the good citizens assume we're out to get them and so they don't communicate with us.

Folks, don't assume LE are against you... Heck, everyone down at the PD today who saw that NH story wants to give the guy a medal. But we also all agreed that the guy is lucky he did not get shot by responding officers! It would have been tragic... but it could have happened.

Last is the point about a common sense approach...

Common sense, once upon a time, was to shoot first. Or live by the adage "I'd rather get tried by 12 instead of carried by 6..." Or "I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy." In spirit, I am with you, really. But case law, precedents, and myriad federal, state and municipal ordnances (combined with civil case law) make a hodgepodge of common sense. You can't live by what appears to be common sense when it comes to things like discharging a firearm at or near another person, no matter how much of dirtbag they may be!!!

To me, the best common sense is not to do something that can get you arrested or killed. And as several above have said, that means knowning clearly what the rules are *today* not in the halcyon past.

Fortunately, this gentleman seemed to be able to enunciate his actions. But the AOJ standard that most jurisdictions recognize for a justifiable shootings completely preclude warning shots or 'shooting to wound.' He could have been in deep trouble.

Remember, that with the AOJ standard, either you are in jeopardy (threat to life and limb) or you are not. Shooting someone to wound, immediately negates the defense that you were in immediate jeopardy. Either you are shooting to incapacitate/stop/kill that person or you were just trying to 'make a point.' And AOJ doesn't allow 'making a point.'

Lastly, even being let off by the DA and hailed as a hero does not preclude the civil suit that is guaranteed if some perp is killed or wounded or suddenly has PTSD from seeing a gun.

By all means, people, defend yourselves. We need more good people out there. But know how to do it right! No officer wants anything bad to happen to a good samaritan on the streets -- or in the courts.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sledge Hammer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This would not happen where I live. We would have given the guy a hand shake and said nice job.

Heck, he might get an award.
</div></div>

Law abiding people should carry guns in Wylie. I have people that I supervise on the Wylie/Rockwall County-line that are very, very interesting.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

It's up to the gun-owner to know the laws of his state. For example, if I saw someone in my neighboor house climbing out the window I could legally shoot him.


SECTION 17-13-20. Additional circumstances where citizens may arrest; means to be used.

A citizen may arrest a person in the nighttime by efficient means as the darkness and the probability of escape render necessary, even if the <span style="font-weight: bold">life of the person should be taken,</span> when the person:

(a) has committed a felony;

(b) has entered a dwelling house without express or implied permission;

(c) has broken or is breaking into an outhouse with a view to plunder;

(d) has in his possession stolen property; or

(e) being under circumstances which raise just suspicion of his design to steal or to commit some felony, flees when he is hailed.

I can not simply discharge the firearm in his direction however.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

From a LEO perspective as a deputy who has responded to a few of these kind of calls.

If you are fearful of your life, shoot centermass, quickly and often.

If you happen to call 911 while fearing for your life do not ask the dispatcher for permission to shoot the perp. They are trained to say "NO". Briefly explain the situation, then drop the phone in your pocket and loudly address the perp. Do what is needful.

Remember the sequence of operation when off the range is:
Bullets in Magazine
Bullet in chamber
Bullet in meat
Repeat 2 & 3 as needed

Felons are a safe final resting place for the bullets from your magazine.

Warning shots or No shots will never have good outcome. Neutral outcome or bad outcome but never good.

Keep in mind that warning shots are specifically prohibited by policy in most agencies. Use of force is for one thing: gaining compliance. Use of force is not for "warning" Using any level of force (other than officer presence or verbal) for a "warning" will get you fired, disciplined or counseled. It is for gaining compliance. Period. Do you give a "warning tap" with your baton? Never.

Ask. Tell. Full force whack. In that order. If the velocity of situation dictates, the first two can be set aside.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, do this in most states, you will get arrested. Shooting the gun in the ground here would be felony misuse of a firearm.

His role as a civilian was to report in to the cops, give them a good description, maybe shine a light on him, let the fool know that he was seen. There were other options for that homeowner - whose home wasn't even the one the guy was in. No one was in danger at the time, according to the story. There was no justification for use of deadly force, which is what a firearm is.

In this case, the firearm was used in the ground. Had he shot the guy, you could argue it would have been prosecuted as a homicide. You CANNOT defend property crimes - particularly when the property being defended is not yours - with deadly force in most states. </div></div>

Thankfully not in Texas.
Here you can kill to defend someone else's property.
I know of 3 cases personally.
A teacher I had in high school shot and killed a thief crawling out of his neighbors window when his neighbors were out of town.
I've had two other people brought to the ER over the years that had been shot by neighbors. 1 thief got shot in the back of the head while attempting to steal a car stereo. A neighbor seen him, walked up on him and shot him point blank in the back of the head with a .380. Took him a few hours to die. No charges were filed.
Another guy got shot and killed for vandalizing a local business. A passerby seen a group of teenagers spray painting a wall and walked up, told them to "freeze"and when the kid came at him, the guy drew his CW and put two in his chest. Died the next day.

The kid vandalizing was kind of sad but he shouldn't have came at the guy. Thieves on the other hand.... That is one area where I believe some parts of the Arab world have it right. I'd be all for chopping their hands off, hell I'd do it myself. I seriously have no sympathy for them and certainly wouldn't show pity or mercy on one.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

I watched an interview with the gentleman that did the shooting into the ground, I also heard the officers justification for the gentlemans arrest. I am about the same age as the shooter. maybe I grew up in the wrong time, but I would have done the same. I should probably remove all locks from my home and just let anyone come in at random and take what they want. At least this could give the police something to do(track down the burglar) as opposed to stopping speeders, and dui violators. I have been the victim of a burglary, while I was on the premises. The reply from the officer. "You have insurance don't you, you do not have anything to worry about." Six months later I tracked down some of the stolen items(guns) and reported it to the police, hell, they could not even find the file, it was still in the bottom of a drawer in someones desk, never filed or any other further investigation. In conclusion--I provided them with enogh names to solve 23 burglaries commited by a team of three, with all items returned to the victims. Sure reinforced my opinion of the local PD. Drive fast-- get a ticket, drink a beer and get pulled over after they sit outside a saloon waiting for their next writeup. Local PD specialist, with an attitude. I remember when LEO were decent respectful people not many still around here like that. They were able to tell the good guy from the bad guy, just does not seem to be the case today. Too young, too cocky.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

It says he was at his 19th century farm house, so probably outside the city limits, and shooting his own ground is a felony, this would close a lot of ranges. This whole thing is BULLSHIT.

Maybe if he was standing in the middle of a downtown city street and fired into the ground, it would be different, but on his own farm, nope.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And speaking as an LEO (since you asked...) NOT talking to an LEO isn't going to get you far. Especially when you are standing at a potential crime scene with a recently fired firearm. At that point... we're going to assume the worst.

Best bet is to tell the truth. If you want an attorney first... ask for one! It doesn't bother us. We're here to defend your rights... and your right to an attorney is utterly clear. If you want to talk at the scene... we're all ears. If you want to talk downtown... great. If you want to talk to an attorney... no problem.

But trying to tell people that "talking to the police is a mistake..." That just results in a community that thinks we are the enemy. We're not. And it makes for a community where the criminals can thrive, because the good citizens assume we're out to get them and so they don't communicate with us.

Folks, don't assume LE are against you... Heck, everyone down at the PD today who saw that NH story wants to give the guy a medal. But we also all agreed that the guy is lucky he did not get shot by responding officers! It would have been tragic... but it could have happened.
</div></div>

I stand by my statement. Of course you should comply with the officers instructions as they take control of the scene, but after that is done there will be the "so what happened question." At that point there is not one thing you can tell the police that can help you, but lots of things that can hurt you. You have no control over how the officer remembers the conversation or how accurate his report of what you said is written down, even if it is an honest mistake on the part of the officer its still gonna bite you in court.

Assume the worst? You're going to assume the worst anyway, in that you still will disarm everyone, secure and separate just as you said. Its not like you can take what I say as the gospel truth and say "oh, he was robbing you, in that case go back in the house and finish your supper." There is absolutely nothing I can say at the scene that can help my case, and plenty that can harm it. After having just shot someone, it is likely that under the stress of the situation I will say something inaccurate, and all it takes is one tiny inaccuracy and I can be screwed in court.

If the police are ready to talk to you it means that they have secured the scene and the immediate threat is over. At that point there is no reason to do anything but request a lawyer and refuse to answer any questions. Doesnt mean you have to be a jerk about it, just politely decline to answer questions. There are lots of people in jail because they talked to cops. It isn't about cops being the enemy. Its just that cops have the power to arrest you and write things that lead to a loss of your freedom. No need to be offended, its just business. Make no statements!

As far as promoting a relationship of trust between the police and the community, how is self-incrimination going to do that? If as you say everyone in your department thought this guy was lucky he didn't get shot by responding officers then maybe you should think a little more why the public doesn't assume that when the police arrive that "help" has arrived. Serious question: How many shootings have you worked where one of the participants talked you out of arresting them?

If you are justified, that determination will be made later, long after you have consulted with your attorney. Until then keep your yap shut if you want to maximize your chances of keeping your freedom.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sledge Hammer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This would not happen where I live. We would have given the guy a hand shake and said nice job.

Heck, he might get an award.

</div></div>

Thank God we live in TEXAS!

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you are justified, that determination will be made later, long after you have consulted with your attorney. Until then keep your yap shut if you want to maximize your chances of keeping your freedom.

</div></div>

I think its important to draw a distinction here between playing mute, and respectfully letting the officer know that you intend to cooperate but would like legal counsel because of the circumstances before you do so.

I am not saying you are suggesting being belligerent here but I think its an important point to draw out.

There is a HUGE difference in how the officer will perceive that.

There are also folks that don't understand that the right to remain silent does NOT include the right to not identify yourself and/or substantiate that identification. Go with the program and the process, even if you choose NOT to discuss the substantive matters until you have counsel.

Re: Man Arrested: Firing Gun Into Ground Stop Burglary

The natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life; second to liberty; third to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can.
-Samuel Adams 1772.

The problem is the move away from common/scientific law to political law.

Read Whatever happened to Justice by Richard Maybury