1,000+ with 6.5 creedmoor ELDM

UIUCPPQ

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Apologies if there’s something I can search for this exact topic, but I’m looking for a compilation of experiences from you all regarding shooting Hornady 140 grain ELDM out of 6.5 creedmoor and it’s limitations.

Last weekend I took 2 rifles chambered in 6.5 cm out over 1,000 yards and the man running the range opined (correctly it would seem) that my loads with ELDM bullets would struggle to maintain consistency as they navigated the transonic turbulence. Both of my rifles managed first or second round hits on targets from 500-1000 yards, but when attempting 1,300 yards, we hit approximately 3 out of 20 rounds on a torso-sized target. It seemed like adjusting shot by shot was giving very inconsistent results and this matched up with the issue the man had warned about earlier. The wind was 0-10 mph coming from about 7 o clock, so it shouldn’t have played a large part, but probably enough to confound the results further. My velocities with the two loads were 2,550 fps SD 5 fps with one rifle and 2750 SD 12 fps with the other. Powder is H4350.

Anyway, I have ordered some A-tips and some Berger hybrids to work up loads to try next time I make it out there, but I’d love to hear from you all to see if everyone has the same issues with ELDM or if I’m putting too much of the blame on the bullet. For reference, we were able to make head shots on 1x upper body targets at 800 and reliably hit at 1,000.

Thanks all.
 

Bandit320

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My 6.5 Creed will put the 140 Hornady American Gunner factory loads on steel all the way to 1400 with ease. I have a hard time believing your ELD-Ms are having trouble going through the transonic consistently.
Mike
 

Pappasniper

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Yea, something aint quite right here. I shoot to 1,300 yards every Sunday and have made hits at a mile. For me a mile is tuff with 6.5. But you should not have issues at 1,300. And I was shooting factory ammo. Why was velocity so much different, obviously the faster the better given both shoot MOA. Barrel length. or a gasser?

I shoot a Bergara LRP and LMT MWS.

PB
 

UIUCPPQ

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Agreed; 1,000 was a piece of cake. Which is why I was shocked that 1,300 was wildly inconsistent. unfortunately it seems like other people aren’t sharing my experience, which leads to more questions.
 

UIUCPPQ

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Yea, something aint quite right here. I shoot to 1,300 yards every Sunday and have made hits at a mile. For me a mile is tuff with 6.5. But you should not have issues at 1,300. And I was shooting factory ammo. Why was velocity so much different, obviously the faster the better given both shoot MOA. Barrel length. or a gasser?

I shoot a Bergara LRP and LMT MWS.

PB
Yeah, it sounds like something wonky is going on on my end based on the two of your experiences with ELDM. How large is the target you shoot at 1,300?

The velocity was a lot different just because I only had like 2 days to work up the bolt rifle’s load and the 2550 posted a .3 moa group with 5 fps SD so I just went with it haha
 

Forward543

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Yeah, it sounds like something wonky is going on on my end based on the two of your experiences with ELDM. How large is the target you shoot at 1,300?

The velocity was a lot different just because I only had like 2 days to work up the bolt rifle’s load and the 2550 posted a .3 moa group with 5 fps SD so I just went with it haha
Lots of things happen the farther out you get. If your load is not dialed, your rifle has accuracy issues, or you have fundemental issues, they will all be magnified at distance. If your rifle does not like the eldm, that is also an issue. What groups are you getting at 1k? How big is your target? Are your bullets on the edge of stable?
A .3 moa group at 100 yards only means you have a .3 moa group at 100 yards. It is a start, but does not mean alot more. Test 500, 800, 1k. If they are all shooting like a house on fire, then it falls to shit at 1300, you have a bullet falling apart. I have seen guns shoot .15 mil at 500 then go .3 mil at 800. My rifles that shoot well past 1k, shoot about .3 mil or better at at 1k. I am not shooting for score, just to hit plates. Welcome to the entry of shooting longer targets.
 

UIUCPPQ

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Lots of things happen the farther out you get. If your load is not dialed, your rifle has accuracy issues, or you have fundemental issues, they will all be magnified at distance. If your rifle does not like the eldm, that is also an issue. What groups are you getting at 1k? How big is your target? Are your bullets on the edge of stable?
A .3 moa group at 100 yards only means you have a .3 moa group at 100 yards. It is a start, but does not mean alot more. Test 500, 800, 1k. If they are all shooting like a house on fire, then it falls to shit at 1300, you have a bullet falling apart. I have seen guns shoot .15 mil at 500 then go .3 mil at 800. My rifles that shoot well past 1k, shoot about .3 mil or better at at 1k. I am not shooting for score, just to hit plates. Welcome to the entry of shooting longer targets.
I understand and just to be clear, I never said I thought .3 at 100 would translate to .3 at 1,000. Simply put, that is just the load I prepared in the time I had allotted.
I wish I could do diagnostics and test all those variables you pose, but I simply do not have access to a 1,000 yard range regularly enough to do that. My goal with this post is just to see what other people here have to say specifically about their experiences with the 140 ELDM. Because my experience lined up with a comment by someone at that range which indicated ELDM may not be the best choice for pushing way out there.
 
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Steel head

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    I’ve had the 140’s past a mile lots of times.
    They seem to have no problems transitioning.

    Those are some pretty leisurely speeds and certainly won’t help
    You might look into the 130’s May actually be beneficial in your situation.
    130’s in action.
     
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    Pappasniper

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    I have two targets, the one we have had at the range at 1,300 is 24X24, so pretty challenging.

    We put up another target for our mile shot 36' round. But can tap it from the 1,300 spot.

    PB
     

    UIUCPPQ

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    I’ve had the 140’s past a mile lots of times.
    They seem to have no problems transitioning.

    Those are some pretty leisurely speeds and certainly won’t help
    You might look into the 130’s May actually be beneficial in your situation.
    130’s in action.
    Im relatively new to reloading. What type of speeds should I be seeking in the 140 in 6.5cm?
     

    jasent

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    If he never said anything would you even notice any thing? Maybe his words affected your mind and caused the issue. Distractions can cause all kinds of issues at Lr

    What we believe often comes true
     

    acudaowner

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    I just can't wait to have a 1300 or more yard at a range to even have an issue on or at . Going bonkers waiting for our thunder valley trip I know I am not going to want to go home after that lol . Its sort of funny I was and am so happy when we found a range with 600 yards then 1k yard range , now looking for a range with mile or more . Will the madness ever end I hope not its a been a blast so far .
     

    UIUCPPQ

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    Yes, we were able to see almost every single shot. One would hit below the target, then the next would go over its shoulder, then low again. It was totally random, so very hard to get hits.
     

    UIUCPPQ

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    Just for reference, the target was this silhouette. We were never aiming for the rectangle, but it took a few hits as you can see. The wind was mostly behind us at the shooting position, but it was swirling a bit out by the target.
     

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    morganlamprecht

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    not sure how you were adjusting shot to shot, but food for thought with how that berm is sloped/angled away from the target (at least how it looks in the pic)

    lots of times with a berm shaped like that, your splash will look higher than it actually hit...splashes up the mound...see it all the time in matches...berm sloped away, splash is biased in that direction...happens with them angled up, left, and right

    ive taken shooters on some hard angled berms and had them miss different directions on purpose to show them how it looks so they know for the next time

    with a lot of your impacts being low on that rectangle, you could have been just low of the ipsc and a slight dope correction would have fixed things up...only takes a few points on the bc to bring it up a couple tenths at 1300, which wont move it much inside 1k...you could have been seeing splashes that "looked" level with the ipsc, but were actually splashing around the bottom edge of the ipsc/top edge of the rectangle...basically your group was centered between the ipsc/rectangle, not on the ipsc

    all said, wasnt there for the shots and how the misses were spotted/corrected for, but its possible based on my experience...as the others have said, ive also taken 140 eld's out to 12-1500 quite a few times in matches, and they made the trip well
     

    UIUCPPQ

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    not sure how you were adjusting shot to shot, but food for thought with how that berm is sloped/angled away from the target (at least how it looks in the pic)

    lots of times with a berm shaped like that, your splash will look higher than it actually hit...splashes up the mound...see it all the time in matches...berm sloped away, splash is biased in that direction...happens with them angled up, left, and right

    ive taken shooters on some hard angled berms and had them miss different directions on purpose to show them how it looks so they know for the next time

    with a lot of your impacts being low on that rectangle, you could have been just low of the ipsc and a slight dope correction would have fixed things up...only takes a few points on the bc to bring it up a couple tenths at 1300, which wont move it much inside 1k...you could have been seeing splashes that "looked" level with the ipsc, but were actually splashing around the bottom edge of the ipsc/top edge of the rectangle...basically your group was centered between the ipsc/rectangle, not on the ipsc

    all said, wasnt there for the shots and how the misses were spotted/corrected for, but its possible based on my experience...as the others have said, ive also taken 140 eld's out to 12-1500 quite a few times in matches, and they made the trip well
    Thanks for the input, those are all good points. From what I can see, there are 3 (maaaaybe 4) hits on the target, 8 or so hits on the rectangle, and I know we had 20 or more shots taken. I suspected in a few cases that the spotter was calling the impact wrong because of the phenomenon you describe, but in other cases, the splash was obviously quite high. It was just very surprising to me that 1,000 yards was so easy I could barely miss and then 1,300 dropped to 15% hits. I’m probably being repetitive here, just interesting experience for me.
     
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    b2lee

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    Last month at TVP....my shooting buddies first time ever shooting past 1000 yards. He was 12 out of 50 at one mile..the target was an 18" round. Rifle is an MPA 6.5cm with 26" barrel. Lapua brass and 140 ELD-M's with 41.9 grains of H4350....MV right around 2800fps on a hot day.

    His misses were mostly a few inches left or right according to the wind. I was impressed. This was his first time ever shooting that far...and with a 6.5cm. I hit the easy button...I pounded that target like it was my job with the 300PRC. You couldn't hear the steel ring with his shots...but I could hear mine.

    The 6.5 is very doable on 1 mile targets...especially at places that give you a rather generous target size.
     
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    UIUCPPQ

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    Last month at TVP....my shooting buddies first time ever shooting past 1000 yards. He was 12 out of 50 at one mile..the target was an 18" round. Rifle is an MPA 6.5cm with 26" barrel. Lapua brass and 140 ELD-M's with 41.9 grains of H4350....MV right around 2800fps on a hot day.

    His misses were mostly a few inches left or right according to the wind. I was impressed. This was his first time ever shooting that far...and with a 6.5cm. I hit the easy button...I pounded that target like it was my job with the 300PRC. You couldn't hear the steel ring with his shots...but I could hear mine.

    The 6.5 is very doable on 1 mile targets...especially at places that give you a rather generous target size.
    Wow, that’s not a big target at a mile! I was 2/2 at a mile with about a 1.5 foot group (two shots, lol) with a friend’s 7mm SAUM, but I didn’t even try to take the 6.5 out there because I was discouraged by the 1,300 target. That load sounds very very similar to mine, so I really appreciate your experience.
     

    Fuji

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    Even at sea level your round should not have been going transonic until 1400 ish. id verify muzzle velocity and try again. We shoot our 6.5 all the time at a mile but it goes transonic just past that at our elevation and our misses are just like you described.
     

    AllenOne1

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    It's the wind
    Your velocity is a little lower than I would prefer to run I would look for 2750+. It's not your choice of bullet causing your issue.
    There is a big difference going from 1000 to 1300 things really need to be working for you and the wind can push your bullet a lot further than you think.
     

    dgheriani

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    It's the wind
    Your velocity is a little lower than I would prefer to run I would look for 2750+. It's not your choice of bullet causing your issue.
    There is a big difference going from 1000 to 1300 things really need to be working for you and the wind can push your bullet a lot further than you think.
    This. If you're calling the wind as being 1-10mph from 7:00, looking at the dope for my 6.5 (140 ELDMs going 2840, so solidly faster than yours) 10mph from 7:00 is 1.3mils of wind. That means .13mils/mph. If the wind shifts to even 8:00, you're looking at more like 0.2mils/mph. How wide is your target, is that a 2/3 IPSC (12" wide)? If so, that's not even 0.3 mils wide. In that case a 1mph wind shift would push half your group off the plate.
     
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    UIUCPPQ

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    It's the wind
    Your velocity is a little lower than I would prefer to run I would look for 2750+. It's not your choice of bullet causing your issue.
    There is a big difference going from 1000 to 1300 things really need to be working for you and the wind can push your bullet a lot further than you think.
    Makes sense. It’s crazy to see how much difference the wind makes in those extra 300 yards but I guess it isn’t a linear effect. I have bought some different bullets that I’m running tests on too, but everyone seems to agree that the bullet likely isn’t the problem. I don’t think I can go much above 2750 in either rifle since they’re both 22” and showing pressure signs at 2750.
     

    Pappasniper

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    Not sure if this point was made but we were shooting last weekend and had a strong tail wind. With your relatively slow velocity and a tailwind starting and stopping can throw bullets over/under a target. Just a thought.

    PB
     
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    vh20

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    This thread is useless without discussion of applicable DAs (and target size). I live at 200 MSL. With factory 6.5CM 140 ELDM ammo I get 2775 fps out of a 26” Krieger. I shoot full-sized IPSCs at distance. In summer, DAs run 2000-2500, and I shoot 1330 yards with very good consistent hits on target. Because of geography I have issues with setting up over 1330 until I get out to about 1500, then I’m able to set up from there on out to 1635. I “think” 1400 would be ok when DA is high, but 1500 never works for me even at the highest DAs we see. In winter when DAs go negative, I’m usually only consistent out to about 1200. 1330 doesn’t work then. My limitations all seem to coincide closely with the transonic range for the conditions of the day (ie I do t think they transition that well).
    Also, a wind listed as 0-10 is a bit odd. That much variation doesn’t usually occur until it really starts whipping. I’d suspect the wind call.
     
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    Paris_Bulks

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    I just broke in a MPA CSR in 6.5 creedmoor with a 22" barrel using the 140 ELDM averaging 2669 fps. First round hits from 300-900 yards, elevation holds true from a Kestrel and Strelok. At 1300 yards they both spit out low holds. I worked my way up onto the plate, which turned out to be an additional half a mil. Wrote down that hold. I switched to 4DOF and the hold it spit out at that distance was spot on my DOPE. The next day the DOPE/4DOF hold resulted in a first round hit then 4 hits in a row at that distance. At that range I was transonic. Nothing wrong with the bullets.



    Apologies if there’s something I can search for this exact topic, but I’m looking for a compilation of experiences from you all regarding shooting Hornady 140 grain ELDM out of 6.5 creedmoor and it’s limitations.

    Last weekend I took 2 rifles chambered in 6.5 cm out over 1,000 yards and the man running the range opined (correctly it would seem) that my loads with ELDM bullets would struggle to maintain consistency as they navigated the transonic turbulence. Both of my rifles managed first or second round hits on targets from 500-1000 yards, but when attempting 1,300 yards, we hit approximately 3 out of 20 rounds on a torso-sized target. It seemed like adjusting shot by shot was giving very inconsistent results and this matched up with the issue the man had warned about earlier. The wind was 0-10 mph coming from about 7 o clock, so it shouldn’t have played a large part, but probably enough to confound the results further. My velocities with the two loads were 2,550 fps SD 5 fps with one rifle and 2750 SD 12 fps with the other. Powder is H4350.

    Anyway, I have ordered some A-tips and some Berger hybrids to work up loads to try next time I make it out there, but I’d love to hear from you all to see if everyone has the same issues with ELDM or if I’m putting too much of the blame on the bullet. For reference, we were able to make head shots on 1x upper body targets at 800 and reliably hit at 1,000.

    Thanks all.
     
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    UIUCPPQ

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    I just broke in a MPA CSR in 6.5 creedmoor with a 22" barrel using the 140 ELDM averaging 2669 fps. First round hits from 300-900 yards, elevation holds true from a Kestrel and Strelok. At 1300 yards they both spit out low holds. I worked my way up onto the plate, which turned out to be an additional half a mil. Wrote down that hold. I switched to 4DOF and the hold it spit out at that distance was spot on my DOPE. The next day the DOPE/4DOF hold resulted in a first round hit then 4 hits in a row at that distance. At that range I was transonic. Nothing wrong with the bullets.
    Yeah, at this point, I’m fairly sure the issues were caused by improper wind adjustments. It was an excellent shooting position with lots of foliage to use to watch the wind, but I am inexperienced at that aspect of long range shooting, so that’s the simplest explanation.
     

    Paris_Bulks

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    Yeah, at this point, I’m fairly sure the issues were caused by improper wind adjustments. It was an excellent shooting position with lots of foliage to use to watch the wind, but I am inexperienced at that aspect of long range shooting, so that’s the simplest explanation.
    I'm counting 10 rounds low on that rectangle if it was clean before you engaged. Of the 10, 7 are good on windage three are off. I'm guessing the remainder hit right of the main target. 1MPH off on your wind call would result in 13" of horizontal drift.
     

    vh20

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    I just broke in a MPA CSR in 6.5 creedmoor with a 22" barrel using the 140 ELDM averaging 2669 fps. First round hits from 300-900 yards, elevation holds true from a Kestrel and Strelok. At 1300 yards they both spit out low holds. I worked my way up onto the plate, which turned out to be an additional half a mil. Wrote down that hold. I switched to 4DOF and the hold it spit out at that distance was spot on my DOPE. The next day the DOPE/4DOF hold resulted in a first round hit then 4 hits in a row at that distance. At that range I was transonic. Nothing wrong with the bullets.
    Dang, I keep forgetting about that 4DOF calc. I really need to give that a try at the distances where I start to have inconsistency with the 140ELD (1400+ in summer, 1200+ in winter). Thanks for the reminder. The Kestrel AB is very dependable up to those distances, but maybe the 4DOF will show better results in the transonic region.
     

    Paris_Bulks

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    Dang, I keep forgetting about that 4DOF calc. I really need to give that a try at the distances where I start to have inconsistency with the 140ELD (1400+ in summer, 1200+ in winter). Thanks for the reminder. The Kestrel AB is very dependable up to those distances, but maybe the 4DOF will show better results in the transonic region.
    I trued the Kestrel. I was impressed I didn't have to with the 4DOF.