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1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

#2
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

That's a lot to promise. And the companies that do...I wouldn't believe it.

Anyways, GAP would promise that on some of their rifles, so I'd start there. GAPrecision.net
 
#4
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

Yup, the Sako's will do it. But the factory doesn't 'guarantee' it. Kind of hard to do when owner might shoot cheap scope... cheaper ammo... and may not even be able to shoot!

That said, most any (decent quality rifles) with right ammo, scope and shooter, will shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yds with great regularity. It's the ability to do it all the time, on demand, under all conditions (and at much longer ranges than 100) that makes the package.

Cheers, Sirhr
 
#5
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

I may be full of shit, but I believe TC Warlord is 1/2 moa guaranteed. Don't quote me on that
laugh.gif
My Savage 10fp will hold 1/2 moa so far, out to 300yrds. I'm sure my groups will open up if I ever get to shoot at any real distance, but not bad without any guarantee.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon_warlord.php
 
#7
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

No, JDGRAY, you aren't FoS. The marketing guys at T/C, however, are! Those brilliant little flacks!

Note that the ad doesn't say Guarantee. It says 1/2 MOA Certified. So under ideal conditions with their chosen ammo, probably from a machine rest indoors... the gun shoots a single 3-shot target and achieve 1/2" center-to-center at 100. And then they certify it, and send you the target saying it's Certified. Ah... marketing.

Cheers, Sirhr.
 
#8
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

Don't put much faith in factory gun guarantee's. A good custom makers rifle usually won't have any problem keeping 1/2 MOA if its guaranteed to or not.

I know of at least one factory that takes the barreled action out of the stock to test it to their accuracy standard. Some don't shoot them at 100, they may say shoot them at 25 yards and just multiple the group size by 4.

Nosler gives an accuracy guarantee of 3 shots into 3/4" for the M48 and state they test fire them to that standard at the factory BUT they then say that you have to break the rifle in with 20-60 rounds of their ammo before it will shoot that well. If they test it when brand new to their accuracy standard.....why does the owner have to break the barrel for it to shoot accurately.....pretty suspect to me. My guess is they aren't bothering to test them for accuracy or if they are it's to some larger standard hoping it gets better with break in.

I've bought and seen a lot of factory guns that came with test targets, and accuracy guarantees that would not live up to them.

I bought an HS precision 300wm for an elk hunt that came with a 3 shot probably .2" group test target. On this one I even inquired to HS if it was shot at 100 yards, in the stock, and by a human. Wouldn't shoot under 1.5" sent it back and HS couldn't get it to shoot either, they had to re-barrel it to get it to shoot to their standard. To their credit they fixed it, but the repairs took longer than my elk hunt deadline.

I've seen two Nosler M48s that wouldn't shoot to their guarantee. I've seen several "Sub MOA" weatherby's that shot well but not 3/4"

Tikkas and sakos generally will do their guarantee esp. with handloads, and many with good factory ammo.

Usually with good handload development you can find a round that will shoot better than factory ammo BUT most manufacturers say it will shoot to their guarantee with factory ammo.

My guess is most of these manufacturers know that 98% of their customers can't shoot better than 1-1.5" groups consistently anyway so even if a bunch of their guaranteed rifles can't really shoot that well they get off the hook anyway. For the tiny % they get back the marketing is well worth it.
 
#9
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

I want to buy the rifle that will guarnatee that I will become capable of shooting 1/2 minute, all day every day if I buy it......


Ain't advertising grand?
 
#10
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to buy the rifle that will guarnatee that I will become capable of shooting 1/2 minute, all day every day if I buy it......
</div></div>

i was not thinking about all day every day, noone can guarantee that.
i just want to be certain that if i buy the next rifle, and it it wont shoot good, wich is for me a consistent 1/2 moa on 100 meters off sandbags or a rest, wich takes the skill kind of out of the equation, after several hundret rounds of load developing and finding a sweet spot, i am not again fucked and have to sell it off with a bad tase in my mouth, and start all over.

some custom makers do put some kind of guarantee on their rifles, but i dont wanna wait a year,and their rifles cost a fortune, mind you in austria there is no custom maker that would guarantee me 1/2 moa that i know of, the nearest would be roedal.

if i can get the same guarantee from a decent factory rifle , i would jump on it i guess. now if there were no ITAR restrictions , id probably safe a little for a TAC OPS, because i would be certain to get a rifle that shoots exceptionally well under ideal condidtions, that is 1/4 moa
and if not they would take it back and fix it.
 
#11
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

I think my Kimber came with a 1/2" guarantee, should have took em up on makin it right. Will come pretty close now but took a pillar bedding from a real smith.
 
#12
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

If you want a .5" guarantee you pretty much need a custom rifle built. The problem with a .5" guarantee on a rifle is that a lot of shooters don't have a .5" guarantee built into them.....
 
#13
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cobaltbomb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i am not again fucked and have to sell it off with a bad tase in my mouth, and start all over.
</div></div>

You've hit the nail on the head here, and if you don't want to take a chance with going through it again save for a custom build. Because even those factory rifles with 3/4" guarantees often don't live up to them and why bother with sending them back when the factory probably manipulates the accuracy testing process in such a way that it will pass when you do.

Sako TRG's, Remington LTR/XCR/PSS, Tikka varmint/tactical, some of the savages will often shoot 1/2" but I don't think any of them come with that guarantee so again it's a crapshoot. The TRG is probably most likely to do it but it's also practically the cost of a custom rifle anyway. Of those I have the most experience with the LTR/PSS rifles and I'd say about half of them that I've seen are capable of doing 1/2" consistently the rest fall into the 1/2"-1" range. HS precision offers 1/2" guarantee on their rifles, however the one I bought didn't do it, however to their credit they did fix it until it did. Again though you are approaching the cost of a custom build anyway.

There's a reason why customs cost so much, it's consistency. If the cheaper factory offerings could really kick out 1/2" accuracy consistently for $1000 no one would buy customs.
 
#14
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

MPI custom rifles have a pretty damn good guarantee. They claim that it is achieved with the use of a human shooter using bipods too.
 
#15
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

I own a TRG 22 in 308 and it usually shoots 0.5" 100 yard groups. When it doesn't I know it's me. There are 2 others in my club both shoot less than 0.5" groups consistantly.
 
#18
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

Accuracy guarantees are marketing.

More precisely, they are tourist traps for people unwilling to do the mental math surrounding the problem that they think they need to solve.

And it's the kind of marketing that scares me because I am left to wonder whether I am intended to be the quality control for the rifle I am getting.

If you get a 1/2 MOA guarantee the rifle is guaranteed to shoot 1/2 MOA at what distance? And if it doesn't shoot 1/2 MOA for you at that distance what are you going to do - send it back? Ok, so then how do you enforce the guarantee and what do you think will happen when you send it back?

When all best and worst groups average 1/2 MOA, or you shoot five consecutive five shot groups at 4" at 800 yards, then I'll concede you have a 1/2 MOA rifle. Problem is, in order to to do that the best the rifle can do must be 1/4 MOA and the best its ammo can do must also be 1/4 MOA. Regardless, can you hold that well?

An accurate rifle is one that puts a bullet hole as close as possible to the position of the sights (or the reticle) everytime. If the shot ends up at four o'clock, and you called it low and right, then you've got an accurate rifle.

The more accurate the rifle, the more influence your hold will have on the bullet impact on target. And that's what we strive for: If the holes on the paper match where the sights were when we pulled the trigger that tells us what we need to know about the rifle and ammo.

But a guarantee......what exactly is that?
 
#19
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

yeah...the TC line is a bunch of CRAP



MOA Guarantee 3 shot group in 1" or less at 100 yards, T/C Venture will shoot MOA groups guaranteed. If not completely satisfied T/C will certify MOA accuracy or replace with a new Venture.

MOA Certified 3 shot group in less than 1" at 100 yards, Target with certified accuracy is in the box.

Certified Sub-MOA 3 shot groups in less than 1" at 100 yards, Target with certified accuracy is in the box.

Certified Half-MOA 3 shot group in 1/2" or less at 100 yards, target with certified accuracy is in the box.
 
#21
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

Test targets mean nothing, here's the 3 shot test target that came with my HS precision that once I got it wouldn't shoot under 1.5" with the same ammo, and had to be re-barreled by HS. In addition I verified with HS that it was shot at 100 yards, by a human, and off bags in the stock. Could it have been damaged somehow in transit to the dealer or myself....possible but unlikely. Not to mention I was stuck with return shipping and insurance costs.

hstarget.jpg


I put more faith in guns that reliably get good accuracy reports such as the sakos, tikkas, remington LTR/XCR/PSS etc. That I do in accuracy guarantees from any factory.

Look at the misleading marketing that Cooper does. They make a good rifle but they encourage dealers to put up their little test targets next to their rifles on display. Test target has all kinds of info on it EXCEPT the yardage it's shot at which is something like 27 yards indoors. Why don't they list a yardage? Because they know customers assume it's shot at 100 yards, I've even seen dealers tell customers it is. Last I heard Kimber removes the action from the stock to do their accuracy testing and at 50 yards and doubles the group size.

What I don't like about test targets is while it's buyer beware these manufacturers are twisting the details and methods to extremes to mislead customers in thinking they are getting a rifle that is proven to shoot to a certain standard.

Accuracy these days is a key concern for many customers and even with factory rifles well over $1000 accuracy and consistency even with test targets is a crap shoot. It sucks in your average buyer who believes the gun makers are honorable and wouldn't use such shifty misleading practices.

Do you drop $1000 on a nice factory rifle and you don't know if you got a 1/2" rifle or a 2" rifle, worse yet if you got the 1.5" rifle even *IF* you send it back their testing procedures might be manipulated in such a way that that they can make it pass their test.
 
#23
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

My Coopers and Kimbers impress me and HS never has. I'm a fan of elder Sakos,hate most all Tikkas and think highly of many 700's.

For $1K or more,I'm typically thinking "build".
 
#24
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

I have several coopers and did some research on them before buying. I knew from the get go that the factory targets were shot at something like 42 yds. I did not expect the rifles to shoot in the.1's or .2's like the test targets show at 100yds with an over the counter rifle. That said they offer and stand behind 3 shot 1/2" groups at 100, which I havent found to be a problem.

Well five out of six aint too bad.
grin.gif

25 naught six
25-06cooper.jpg
 
#26
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

i find it hard to believe that a company like hs precision or FN would tweak their test methods on those guns they are confident enough to guarantee a 1/2 moa limit on 100 yards 5 shot grps or wahtever to such an extend that a 1+1/2 lemon still meets their 1/2 moa garantee with X brand of good match ammo or handloads.these are companies with a reputation. aftre all it was a hassel for you, dear todd to get it fixed, but they did finally
if they did not, i would certainly badmouth them throughout the community and sue them too, and so would do others.
cooper of course is an example on how customers are fooled


since you can also get a bad shooting gun from sako or remington once in a while, the only way to be certain that you buy a good gun, is buying a used gun from an individual or a new one from a store.
but beforehand testshooting it!

from sandbags or a rest preferrably with good working handloads for the specific rifle or at least good match ammo.
this would the best way to proove the potential of a gun.


now if my howa returns from the smith and still wont shoot better than 4/5 MOA after the bedding job, ill definietly drop it, and buy either rifle that shoots 1/3 MOA on 100 with a specific load from a guy i knok. he will let me verify his claims by shooting it myself.
Or i buy a rifle from a custom rifle company in germany whos rifles have a guarantee to shoot 2/5 moa or better with quality match ammo (i believe norma).this rifle is ready to ship.

id prefer the custom company rifle because it rides in a mcmillan,and has a break, and a 20 moa base.
 
#28
Re: 1/2 moa guarantee from the factory ?

Most haven't the first inkling on how to begin to extract the performance available at their finger tips and are quick to cuss a sound rifle for those reasons.

Often rather humorous to watch that show.
 
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