1 moa at 100, 3 moa at 300. How?

[doubleduck]

I have some experience at reloading. I have created respectable loads for my 300 SAUM, 308, 270 Win and 6.5 Grendel. My Dads 1950ish Savage 110 in 30-06 has me stumped. I have created a load using H4350 and the Hornady 165 SST and 165 Interbond. It shoots approx 1 moa at 100 yards but when I move to 300 yards it blows out to around 2 3/4 moa. I don't get it. I don't think there is any way a 165 grain bullet would not be stable. I haven't had this issue with any of my other developed loads. Any advice is appreciated.
Frustrated

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Clearly your bullet is not going to sleep…

100 is where you start dialing in your load. Not where it ends. Start looking at charge weight. Then twist vs. bullet.

Also, what is your group looking like? Stringing left? Right? Vertical? Flyers? Called flyers? Wind.

This is nothing new in handloading. It’s part of the fun.

Last, A good precision rifle should be well… well under 1moa at 100 anyway. So if you are getting 1” groups at 100, not 1/2” or 1/3” with handloads…. Look at rifle? Scope? Ssetting parallax right? (A big thing folks don’t understand). But clearly you do! Because you shoot modern guns and calibers and have handloading dialed in.

But that is not the issue here… it is a 1950’s savage! It’s not going to print much bigger than minute of deer at 300… also, possibly too light a bullet. Back then 180 grain was sort of “the hunting” round in .30. Probably twist rate was optimized for it. Try slowing it down and using a 180.

Loading for old guns (and expectations) from wood stocks, pencil hunting barrels and even old scopes is far different from modern stuff.

It will dial in better. Maybe. But remember, at 300 yards that rifle would have brought home a deer every time with a 8” group! Minute of pie plate. One holers at 300 came 40 years later!

Post some pix… and stop by vintage. We appreciate that stuff over there!!!

Sirhr

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I have some experience at reloading. I have created respectable loads for my 300 SAUM, 308, 270 Win and 6.5 Grendel. My Dads 1950ish Savage 110 in 30-06 has me stumped. I have created a load using H4350 and the Hornady 165 SST and 165 Interbond. It shoots approx 1 moa at 100 yards but when I move to 300 yards it blows out to around 2 3/4 moa. I don't get it. I don't think there is any way a 165 grain bullet would not be stable. I haven't had this issue with any of my other developed loads. Any advice is appreciated.
Frustrated

First let me confirm that the group at 300 is roughly 9 inches and not 3 inches. It sounds stupid and no effort to insult you but just want to be clear.

So, that said, you need to closely examine the shape of the bullet holes at 100 yards. Looking for the slightest bit of out of round holes.

There are so many issues on an older rifle. Damaged crown, bore rough from age. Throat worn. And in some cases, the bullet just does not agree with the throat/twist/crown

So, first, after a through inspection of the barrel, the obvious is to try a different bullet weight. Change powder charge to change velocity. Do something seemingly dumb like change primer.

Second, lots of strange things happen as bullets leave the muzzle. For example. In my experience I found one 7mm 140 grain bullet is on target at 100 meters. Another brand of the same bullet type weighing 145 grains hits at the same elevation but 7 inches to the right. Good grouping on both. Strictly where and how the bullet exits the muzzle/crown of the barrel.

There will be others with greater experience than myself, but when something strange happens (and its obviously not dangerous) try different stuff.

 

[doubleduck]

Clearly your bullet is not going to sleep…

100 is where you start dialing in your load. Not where it ends. Start looking at charge weight. Then twist vs. bullet.

Also, what is your group looking like? Stringing left? Right? Vertical? Flyers? Called flyers? Wind.

This is nothing new in handloading. It’s part of the fun.

Last, A good precision rifle should be well… well under 1moa at 100 anyway. So if you are getting 1” groups at 100, not 1/2” or 1/3” with handloads…. Look at rifle? Scope? Ssetting parallax right? (A big thing folks don’t understand). But clearly you do! Because you shoot modern guns and calibers and have handloading dialed in.

But that is not the issue here… it is a 1950’s savage! It’s not going to print much bigger than minute of deer at 300… also, possibly too light a bullet. Back then 180 grain was sort of “the hunting” round in .30. Probably twist rate was optimized for it. Try slowing it down and using a 180.

Loading for old guns (and expectations) from wood stocks, pencil hunting barrels and even old scopes is far different from modern stuff.

It will dial in better. Maybe. But remember, at 300 yards that rifle would have brought home a deer every time with a 8” group! Minute of pie plate. One holers at 300 came 40 years later!

Post some pix… and stop by vintage. We appreciate that stuff over there!!!

Sirhr

Thank You Sirhr, My groups seemed very random (no stringing). I have tried 175 LRX, 190 ABLR, 208 ELDM, none of which grouped well. The Hornady 165 clearly shot best and I would be happy with 1 moa if I could maintain it at longer distances. At 1:10 twist the 165 should be plenty stable so I can't imagine why the group falls apart unless it is the scope or the shooter or some physics I am not aware of. I retorqued all the scope screws and shoot just fine with my other guns. It just doesn't make any sense to me

 

[Doom]

My $0.02. Assuming this is really a 2-3/4 MOA issue. The 30-06 has a twist rate of 1 in 10 so it should have had problems with 180 gr bullets. I doubt it's a twist issue but it could certainly be a damaged muzzle crown.

Because of the rifle's age it is entirely possible that there is some issue with the bore due to corrosion. That is especially true if this were a hunting rifle and it was ever put up damp. Its also possible that corrosive ammunition may have been shot in it.. Giving it a good cleaning and a borescopic examination is probably in order. I would do this before investing anymore time in load development.

If it's a 2-3/4" drop that is consistent with the 1 MOA at 100 yds. Don't worry be happy!

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I was going to mention corrosive ammo. A lot of that floating around when the rifle was new.

Also what scope are you running OP? The older scopes (Lyman's, etc) can be great at 100 but the reticles are so 'large' and kludgy at 300 that holding anything on is tough. It's not so much parallax as it is just big stadia lines and lots of lens aberration, etc.

Post some pix!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[RegionRat]

Sounds like you have had at least some good reloading experience in your background, so I will suggest a debugging method that I recommend to beginners hoping it doesn't insult you.

Baseline a sporting gun with some FGMM ammo or match ammo handloads that you have verified in some other gun and you know they work. It gives you a baseline to work against, and something to debug with if you are left wondering about a recipe that should work but doesn't and or the ensuing doubts that causes for the day.

For example, that FGMM (GM3006M) load uses a 168 SMK. It won't be the perfect tune in every rifle, but if you know what this does in most decent sporting guns, and yours doesn't act right with your handloads, then you don't challenge yourself with doubts about everything all at once. This way, you can work down the troubleshooting and cut to the chase between the ammo, the gun, or the driver.

Another test, is to run some of the same recipe in a completely different rig. You will have to prep the brass for interchangeability between the two guns, but if it doesn't group in either gun then we go back and reexamine the loading process. If it groups decent in the other gun, then we know it is a matter of troubleshooting the gun.

Has this rifle ever done better with any other ammo? If you have any of that, try to copy it? Your carefully prepped and charged handloads should do better than the factory baseline.

Too soon to say what the root cause will be, but getting bad groups from two different bullets sounds suspicious for a 1:10 twist at 300 yards, especially if you got roughly 1 MOA at 100.

Good Luck and in for the range report when you have it figured out.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Shooting 1 MOA at 100 yards and holding 1 MOA at 300 yards is not the same skill level.
You need to first deal with the human noise in the formula. Can you take another rifle
and shoot the same at 300 as you do at 100?

Sometimes it is also the change in the ergonomics of the rifle, for example you shoot a chassis consistently
then you shoot a conventional stock and you just cant get it as stable as the chassis and the target displays this.

Quality of the optic matters more at longer ranges as you are trying to align the crosshairs to the exact same point on the target, if the target image is not clear there will be variations on your target alignment.

As far as the rifle a 1:10 twist will easily stabilize a 180gr boattail so unless there is some type of barrel defect
you are good.

 

[rmfield]

Perhaps scope parallax. Put the crosshair on a precise target at 300 yards and move your head around slightly. Does the crosshair move around on the target?

 

[sig2009]

No idea I get 1/4" MOA at 100 yards.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Been thinking about your problem. Its bullet stability, caused by a very worn throat, a bad crown or possibly a hidden issue within the rifling. I would think it is the first two.

My evidence. Ever see a demonstration of a trailer swing, where a trailer is improperly loaded with too much weight to the rear? It starts out hardly recognizable but as the oscillations continue it gets worse and worse. As your bullet left the barrel it had stability issues. As it travels further and further down range the oscillations get worse with broader swings.

So, by reason, the bullet is leaving your case either untrue due to an extremely worn throat, or is being upset by the crown as it leaves the barrel.

other possibilities are an issue with runout with yoru loading die or a possible defect inside the barrel such as a hidden bulge.

Have a gunsmith check every aspect of yoru barrel closely and also, load some rounds with a different set of loading dies

 

[308pirate]

It's amazing how, in all these kinds of threads, the OP never mentions himself as the most likely cause of the problem.

 

[doubleduck]

My $0.02. Assuming this is really a 2-3/4 MOA issue. The 30-06 has a twist rate of 1 in 10 so it should have had problems with 180 gr bullets. I doubt it's a twist issue but it could certainly be a damaged muzzle crown.

Because of the rifle's age it is entirely possible that there is some issue with the bore due to corrosion. That is especially true if this were a hunting rifle and it was ever put up damp. Its also possible that corrosive ammunition may have been shot in it.. Giving it a good cleaning and a borescopic examination is probably in order. I would do this before investing anymore time in load development.

If it's a 2-3/4" drop that is consistent with the 1 MOA at 100 yds. Don't worry be happy!

Thank You Doom for the input. Just to confirm, it goes from 1 moa to nearly 3 moa (at 300). The barrel looks good to me using my bore scope but I will have a gunsmith look over both the crown and barrel. I dont have much experience at evaluating barrel wear.

 

[hafejd30]

Just curious but we’re talking consistent 1 moa at 100 correct? Not just one 3 round group to base Accuracy off of?

Also what do you have for optic and is the parallax correct?

 

[Ledzep]

Shoot 10 rounds at 100 and verify that it's actually 1 MOA or remotely close.

Betcha it's not, and barring that it sounds like a scope problem.

 

[doubleduck]

Some fair points and after reviewing my shooting data my groups increased closer to 2 moa, not 3. I typically shoot 5 shot groups and I typically shoot 1-1 1/4 groups and occasionally I get a flier of which I attribute to myself. As far as parallax goes I usually remember to adjust it to the distance I am shooting. Do I forget sometimes, yes. Knowing this I have tried shooting at 300+ on 3 different occasions and had the same result every time. If I was encountering this issue with my other guns I would look in the mirror for the problem but as it is I am only having problems with the 30-06. I can also understand it being a scope issue but that doesn't explain how it repeatedly shoots 1-1 1/4 at 100. FYI I am not dialing up my scope. I am using the BDC reticle on the Vortex Diamondback HP 4-16 and I am shooting before the wind comes up. I am grateful for the head scratching. I'm at a loss
I did read somewhere where a shooter got erratic grouping and ultimately found it to be his weakened firing pin spring. This is a 70ish year old gun. Do any willey veterans think the spring could be the cause?

 

[RegionRat]

Maybe.

Any weak ignition problem will typically show up in speed stats.

A weak ignition system can also ruin group performance by throwing a money wrench into your follow through. You would have to have a very hard follow through and hold to get past a bad hang fire.

Weak firing pins are usually more subtle and show up at distance and in the speed stats.

What is strange about your problem, is the change in group size between 100 and 300.

Not that 300 is immune to wind, but it is still relatively close in the trajectory to be seeing non-linear behavior compared to 100.

In the same way that claims of smaller groups at 300 compared to 100 are usually a mistaken observation, the 100-300 groups are usually closely related in MOA terms (unless the winds are the cause). It takes about a 10 MPH gust of wind difference to send a shot an extra 6 inches compared to the rest of the group so you would have noticed those gusts.

We are assuming you would mention a radical wind difference between those sessions. The horizontal spread of a group is one thing, but a vertical at 300 is another. Poor speed stats tend to show up out at distance with vertical spread, but 300 is hardly far for a centerfire trajectory.

 

[Cr1775]

And i don't think your gonna get a anser could be alot of things.
The reason i say that is that i was trying to work up a load for my 300 RUM with Hornady 208 eld and imr 7828 .25 to 2 inch 5 round groups at 100 took it out to 600 and I'll be kept them in the x ring well 17 out of 20.
Try a different bullet.

 

[Lowlight]

Shooter

We see it all the time, can shoot 1 MOA at 100, and they shoot 5 MOA at 300,

We always tell people to shoot groups at 200 and 300, not 100, because 100 is lying to you

This is shooter, and with bigger calibers, it's recoil

 

[doubleduck]

Very Good. I am grateful to all of you for the input. I will try another bullet and shoot 200+.

 

[MarkyMark007]

bryan litz speculate that barrel is dead when in the first few inches of the barrel the bullet is damaged because of the rough barrel, and than this damaged bullet fly badly.
and maybe your grooves dont spin your bullet enough to be stabilized.
so I would clean the barrel with some abrazive to get it smooth.

than measure SD of velocity of your ammo. if this is very high, there is also a problem.

 

[Lowlight]

No, no, no...

None of that bullshit, it's the shooter

 

[doubleduck]

Thank You Bryan, I looked at a video of my borescope from 18 months ago. Im no expert but there is quite a bit of pitting and damage. I tried to attach it but the file was too big. It wouldn't surprise me at all if I need to replace it. I will have a gunsmith look it over.

 

[Haney]

It's amazing how, in all these kinds of threads, the OP never mentions himself as the most likely cause of the problem.

Also amazing that you assume they are . Maybe you are a shitty shot, not everyone is .

 

[Haney]

No, no, no...

None of that bullshit, it's the shooter

Your statement is bullshit if you have zero proof it is in fact the shooter . .

 

[308pirate]

Thank You Bryan, I looked at a video of my borescope from 18 months ago. Im no expert but there is quite a bit of pitting and damage. I tried to attach it but the file was too big. It wouldn't surprise me at all if I need to replace it. I will have a gunsmith look it over.

It couldn't possibly be that your skills are not that good.....

 

[Haney]

OP, check those

It couldn't possibly be that your skills are not that good.....

Spoken like a true TROLL .

 

[Haney]

OP, good luck . Have you checked the torque of your action screws ? Pressure on barrel from stock ? All the little things add up as distance increases .

 

[308pirate]

OP, check those

Spoken like a true TROLL .

You're just another shitty shooter that blames everything under the sun.

The firing pin spring is why his groups open up at 300?

 

[supercorndogs]

What did you have for breakfast the morning you were shooting, any coffee, eggs and bacon, potatoes or cereal? Was the moon in its waxing phase? Did you shoot your 100y groups north and south, then your 300y east and west? Did you make sure to demagnetize your firing pin? If the answer is yes or no to any of these questions, its probably you.

 

[Aftermath]

OP, good luck . Have you checked the torque of your action screws ? Pressure on barrel from stock ? All the little things add up as distance increases .

Also, OP, be sure you are using good form.

 

[doubleduck]

Thanks Haney and Aftermath, I think Bryan was probably right about the barrel. I don't have the experience or history to evaluate the condition of this barrel but it has approx a 6 inch section that is rough as a corn cob. The bad section starts approx 2 inches from the muzzle and extends approx 6 inches down toward the chamber. I have read that some rough barrels still shoot quite well so I didn't assume this barrel was bad. In hindsight I think its shooting as well as can be expected from a barrel with such damage. Being my dads gun I plan on rebarrelling it. There is nothing better than carrying your dads gun in the field. Thanks for the support

 

[Doom]

Thanks Haney and Aftermath, I think Bryan was probably right about the barrel. I don't have the experience or history to evaluate the condition of this barrel but it has approx a 6 inch section that is rough as a corn cob. The bad section starts approx 2 inches from the muzzle and extends approx 6 inches down toward the chamber. I have read that some rough barrels still shoot quite well so I didn't assume this barrel was bad. In hindsight I think its shooting as well as can be expected from a barrel with such damage. Being my dads gun I plan on rebarrelling it. There is nothing better than carrying your dads gun in the field. Thanks for the support

Rough barrels can damage bullets to the point that they lose material that upsets the center of the axis of rotation and the center of gravity. Sounds like this rifle has had some storage issues.

 

[Ledzep]

Rough barrels can damage bullets to the point that they lose material that upsets the center of the axis of rotation and the center of gravity. Sounds like this rifle has had some storage issues.

Sure... Those problems don't show up between 100 and 300 yards, though.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Your statement is bullshit if you have zero proof it is in fact the shooter . .

 

[Lowlight]

I have a response, but I'll refrain

Let's just say, I would bet money, even with a different rifle the results are close to the same.

If it's "approximately 1 MOA at 100", it's not better than 5" at 300, bet me ...

 

[FWoo45]

I see groups open up sometimes when I shoot my old 30-06. Not particularly recoil sensitive, but I know that when I’m having issues, I’m the problem.

 

[oso1]

No, no, no...

None of that bullshit, it's the shooter

Sure, go ahead and ruin thread with common sense

 

[doubleduck]

No doubt others will disagree but for what it is worth and as I stated early on, I don't have problems with my groups opening up with my 270, 308 or 300 SAUM. If I was going to have an issue shooting I would expect it to come with my unbraked 300 and a 208g bullet. At this point I am grateful for the constructive input and plan to rebarrel to a 6.5-06. Should make a great deer gun.
Best Regards

 

[Aftermath]

No doubt others will disagree but for what it is worth and as I stated early on, I don't have problems with my groups opening up with my 270, 308 or 300 SAUM. If I was going to have an issue shooting I would expect it to come with my unbraked 300 and a 208g bullet. At this point I am grateful for the constructive input and plan to rebarrel to a 6.5-06. Should make a great deer gun.
Best Regards

Do the Ackley and gain something like 5 grains of case volume.