10-Shot Load Development Results Berger 140gr Hybrids/H4350 - Where would you go from here?

[Senor_Barney]

Finally had a chance this weekend to put everything I gathered from Hide reloading resources into practice. All the data gathered is posted below.

Would appreciate any / all observations from those more experienced re-loaders as I'm having some questions about where to go exactly from here.

My guess at next steps:
Load 3 rounds at each powder weight in Nodes 1-3 below. That is 9 rounds total in each node and 27 rounds total. I would then narrow down to seating depth, etc.

• Node 1: 40.4, 40.5, 40.6gr --> But the groups look awful here.
• Node 2: 41.4, 41.5, 41.6gr
• Node 3: 42.2, 42.3, 42.4gr? Looks like may plateau around 42.3gr (which is max load per Berger for 140gr)
• Wildcard Node: Is something developing ~41gr? The 40.9gr SD and Group looks good, but velocities look to still be accelerating toward 2700...

As I've already spent a ton getting set up I'm prepared to also invest a tone of time fine-tuning.

A few notable items:
1) I wasn't focused as much on getting a tight group, but How much should I care about MOA size at this point? Hard to overlook the LOW SD of some groups with high MOA group and vice versa.
2) No reason why I seated the bullets where I did. But I picked a CBTO (2.136) and took immense care to ensure every single round was seated exactly the same.
3) I did not have the tools to measure concentricity / runout / net tension or any of the more advanced items
4) Done with 1x fired Hornady brass -- Can I load a second time with this brass?
5) I did a 5 shot group last week with Hornady 140gr ELD-M factory ammo gave my 2667fps with SD of 18 and ES of 45

 

[Krob95]

I would load 41.5, 41.6, 41.7. 10 rounds each. Low 10’s for SD isn’t the worst thing ever either. See what it does. I would do a total of 6 5 round groups, two per charge weight. If it doesn’t tighten up, proceed with a seating depth test and pick your charge weight you want to use. 3rds is not a significant data set. Neither is 10 but 10 is much better than 3.

You can load that brass as much as you want until primers don’t go into the pocket any more.

 

[Newbie2020]

Flat spot “nodes” are a myth. They are an anomaly of statistical variance. You can see this in your graph: the variance around the mean for each charge weight in each “node” always intersects the linear path from lowest to highest charge. Until you reach extreme pressures, mv increases linearly with increasing powder charge.

Choose a powder charge based on your desired mv, that doesn’t show pressure signs, tune group size by adjusting seating depth, or use a barrel tuner, and go shoot.

 

[tnc]

Any pressure signs yet? Seems a little slow. I would think you could get 2,800-2,850

 

[Senor_Barney]

Any pressure signs yet? Seems a little slow. I would think you could get 2,800-2,850

FWIW, I am shooting a 24in AT...this are rounds 40-90...basically <100 total.

I too came to the conclusion that things "feel" slower than expected. Maybe slow, but predictable is better? Still, Quite a number of other people on here seemed to tune loads around the 41.5 level, but much higher velocities than what I got. Maybe its how/how deep I am seating the bullets. Still lots to learn and practice and play with.

As for pressure sign, nothing on the brass pics below or the primers gives an indication of pressure getting close to high. My target was 2750 so Ill probably do testing at the 41.5-41.6gr and 42.3-42.5gr levels.

 

[Senor_Barney]

For those that use the Magnetospeed...how much should I factor that thing being strapped to the end of my barrel (and impacting things) when considering the groups?

I don't have a Labradar...unfortunately

 

[Krob95]

brass looks good. Probably helps you’re not pushing it hard. You should get many firings out of it if you keep pressure down. As far as the magnetospeed. I’ve heard a bunch about it affecting POI. But not about group sizes. If you’re worried about it test for speed, then seating depth separately

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’d focus on things like your process. Things like making sure your brass prep is better as well as powder drop. The chrono numbers are indicative of brass prep and/or powder drop being inconsistent.

The end result is data which isn’t reliable. With the chrono numbers posted, you’re going to need closer to 30 rounds each to really get a good idea what’s going on. Obviously that’s not practical. So, optimizing your loading is the way to do this. In a perfect world, you could use the 5 shot strings to eliminate poor performing loads and then focus on the better loads. As it sits now, you really don’t know what is performing subpar.

Focus on consistent neck inside diameter (use a mandrel or lee collete die if not already) and a consistent powder drop.

Brass like hornady takes more work to perform well than something like lapua.

Not trying to offend, but it’s just like shooting. You don’t move onto the advanced stuff before learning the other. Work on your loading technique to get your numbers in a better spot before you attempt to interpret data.

 

[RldrNewby]

I respect everyone’s opinions, and I am in no way saying the last comment was wrong, but personally, I wouldn’t want to load 30 rounds to generate statistically valid data. I tend to lean more on the 3-5 round data as a really coarse subjective starting point. It’s hard for me to justify turning loose that much component, and dip into barrel life when both are so hard to come by. That’s just me, but I’m cheap also . I would reload a second test looking again at the 41.5 to 41.7 area, & maybe one charge weight on either side. If the trend holds up, & you see MV is not as linear somewhere in there across two to three charge weights, & the SDs are still ok, pick a charge somewhere in the middle, then go into seating depth tests to see if you can pull the groups in a little. Someone mentioned earlier about reloading bench techniques & tools, & I do agree. Those will improve over time, & I think you will see improvements in your SDs the longer you’re at this hobby. I like to tinker, & see if I can improve on things, but tend to get me bogged down in the weeds sometimes. The reality is, as another commenter said, you can probably just pick a decent grouping load that’s not around pressure, play with the seating depth, and just run with it. Depends on your goal tho. That load may only perform well out to 400-500yds, and fall to pieces beyond. Then again, you might get lucky & have it hold up out to 1000.

Edit: I misread the last comment & thought the commenter was recommending you load 30 rounds, when he clearly said that’s not practical. My apologies! That’s what I get for speed reading. I agree 100% with his whole post.

 

[Downtown]

If your stock allows a method for attaching your magnetospeed there in stead of strapped to the barrel, it does away with the question of point of aim influence.

 

[Geaux tigers]

For those that use the Magnetospeed...how much should I factor that thing being strapped to the end of my barrel (and impacting things) when considering the groups?

I don't have a Labradar...unfortunately

Yes it will effect accuracy.

Anything attached to your barrel that you don’t intended to shoot with all the time should not be on your barrel during load development.

When I first started all I did was test and you find out what pissing in the wind is all about.

Bullet holes in paper tell you what your barrel likes so out of the data you have posted above the target matters so if you shot that target with out the magneto you need to load to 40.0gr and play with seating if you had the crono strap to the barrel start over.

The reason for 40.0 is POI there both impacting at the same elevation on the target and and there shifting toward each other one to the right one to the left.
Verify with crono when done.

Just my 2 cents

 

[RldrNewby]

FWIW, I am shooting a 24in AT...this are rounds 40-90...basically <100 total.

I too came to the conclusion that things "feel" slower than expected. Maybe slow, but predictable is better? Still, Quite a number of other people on here seemed to tune loads around the 41.5 level, but much higher velocities than what I got. Maybe its how/how deep I am seating the bullets. Still lots to learn and practice and play with.

As for pressure sign, nothing on the brass pics below or the primers gives an indication of pressure getting close to high. My target was 2750 so Ill probably do testing at the 41.5-41.6gr and 42.3-42.5gr levels.

View attachment 7656783

View attachment 7656782

Barrel length is the major difference in most ppl’s velocities. Don’t quote me, but I’ve heard it said a barrel loses anywhere from 30-50fps per inch less of barrel length. So, if a major ammo manufacturer publishes a MV of 2750fps on their box of ammo, and they gathered that data using a 24” barrel, which many do, yet you’re shooting their ammo through a 20” barrel, you are probably only gonna see your MV come in somewhere between 2550 to 2630fps. That’s not chiseled in stone, & many factors like type of rifling grooves, twist rate, powder, primer etc, also would effect the specific decrease, but you get where I’m goin. I personally don’t go after the higher MV’s bc I feel it burns the throat out a little sooner, & doesn’t leave you much wiggle room when loading a powder near pressure. Nothin wrong with low 2700s with a 140g in my opinion. It’ll get the job done.

 

[DMP]

After spending time and $ On load development on 5 worn out 6.5 barrels I generally just pick out:
Berger
Lapua
CCI 450
41.5 gr H4350

I tune the seating depth. Currently at 2.850 OAL. Average groups below .5 and SD is always single number.

I spend barrel life on wind and mirage work.

 

[jl937]

Pick any charge in the 2700-2750 fps range, go tune seating depth to bring the group in, and quit wasting precious components chasing velocity ladders or flat spots. Lots of people chase velocity, but that extra 50-100 fps is not going to magically earn you impacts. You'll get more value out of that next 50 rounds in practice than you will chasing velocity in load development.

Oh, and don't load develop with the magneto strapped to the barrel.

My 2¢, for the 1/2¢ it's worth.

 

[RldrNewby]

Pick any charge in the 2700-2750 fps range, go tune seating depth to bring the group in, and quit wasting precious components chasing velocity ladders or flat spots. Lots of people chase velocity, but that extra 50-100 fps is not going to magically earn you impacts. You'll get more value out of that next 50 rounds in practice than you will chasing velocity in load development.

Oh, and don't load develop with the magneto strapped to the barrel.

My 2¢, for the 1/2¢ it's worth.

My barrel loved the 140g ELDMs in that range waaaaaaay back when I could find em. Fell right in there with 41.2g H4350 with the lot of powder I had at the time (that’s long gone now), & it shot great.

Just thought of something. I never thought to ask the OP if he was allowing any cool time between groups? If not paced, if the barrel got really hot, the SDs could’ve been falsely elevated. Pretty easy to get hot with that many shots. Also realized I may’ve made it sound like I thought he was shootin a 20” barrel in my earlier post, but saw where he was shootin a 24”. Was just using a 20” as an example when trying to explain why some ppls velocities don’t match when loading the same load.

 

[XLR308]

Finally had a chance this weekend to put everything I gathered from Hide reloading resources into practice. All the data gathered is posted below.

Would appreciate any / all observations from those more experienced re-loaders as I'm having some questions about where to go exactly from here.

My guess at next steps:
Load 3 rounds at each powder weight in Nodes 1-3 below. That is 9 rounds total in each node and 27 rounds total. I would then narrow down to seating depth, etc.

• Node 1: 40.4, 40.5, 40.6gr --> But the groups look awful here.
• Node 2: 41.4, 41.5, 41.6gr
• Node 3: 42.2, 42.3, 42.4gr? Looks like may plateau around 42.3gr (which is max load per Berger for 140gr)
• Wildcard Node: Is something developing ~41gr? The 40.9gr SD and Group looks good, but velocities look to still be accelerating toward 2700...

As I've already spent a ton getting set up I'm prepared to also invest a tone of time fine-tuning.

A few notable items:
1) I wasn't focused as much on getting a tight group, but How much should I care about MOA size at this point? Hard to overlook the LOW SD of some groups with high MOA group and vice versa.
2) No reason why I seated the bullets where I did. But I picked a CBTO (2.136) and took immense care to ensure every single round was seated exactly the same.
3) I did not have the tools to measure concentricity / runout / net tension or any of the more advanced items
4) Done with 1x fired Hornady brass -- Can I load a second time with this brass?
5) I did a 5 shot group last week with Hornady 140gr ELD-M factory ammo gave my 2667fps with SD of 18 and ES of 45


View attachment 7656515

View attachment 7656516

View attachment 7656473

This has been a source of contention and sore buttholes lately but your data mirrors what mine and many others have noticed with the 140 Hybrid in particular as well as other bullets with the same powder.
Im not advocating for any one consensus just stating what i have found and even mixed it up a bit to include tests outside of my normal processes since i like challenge by people that whant to go a diferent route.
I am open to all avenues even if we end up back on the same street after four right turns
I innitially tested the Berger 140 Hybrid & H4350 and found the sweet spot to be between 41.5 to 42.0 with a .070" jump in a SAAMI .199 freebore but didnt seem to matter on the charge as long as it was jumped .070" so dumb Texas Hillbilly luck i chose right.
Next tests will be varios groups with various powder charges based on temps ranging from 50° to 105° to see if i have it figured out or need to experiment further.
I dont like to settle on a load personally until ive shot it in near 100° f temps as wella s low temps but im a hard headed asshole.

 

[Senor_Barney]

My barrel loved the 140g ELDMs in that range waaaaaaay back when I could find em. Fell right in there with 41.2g H4350 with the lot of powder I had at the time (that’s long gone now), & it shot great.

Just thought of something. I never thought to ask the OP if he was allowing any cool time between groups? If not paced, if the barrel got really hot, the SDs could’ve been falsely elevated. Pretty easy to get hot with that many shots. Also realized I may’ve made it sound like I thought he was shootin a 20” barrel in my earlier post, but saw where he was shootin a 24”. Was just using a 20” as an example when trying to explain why some ppls velocities don’t match when loading the same load.

I probably didn't allow as much cool as (should?) is required.

Was done over the course of 1hr...I shot a group...waited 2-3min then loaded another.
40.5-41.3gr was the first set.

Waited 15min...

Then did 41.5-42.3gr waiting 2-3min between strings.

Too little?

 

[Senor_Barney]

M

After spending time and $ On load development on 5 worn out 6.5 barrels I generally just pick out:
Berger
Lapua
CCI 450
41.5 gr H4350

I tune the seating depth. Currently at 2.850 OAL. Average groups below .5 and SD is always single number.

I spend barrel life on wind and mirage work.

Believe my COAL was ~2.817 in this load...with CBTO of ~2.136

But why is there a focus on COAL vs CBTO?

For example, I loaded a Berger Hybrid and a ELD-M. I noticed the Ogive on the ELD-M was closer to the bullet nose. As such, even at the exact same COAL, the CBTO on the Hybrids was shorter than the ELD-M, all else equal.

For both bullets to touch the lands at the same time when fired, I would need to load the Hybrid longer. I guess not everyone has a comparator tool so giving the COAL is adequate when comparing the same bullets. But really is not appropriate when comparing different brands.

 

[RldrNewby]

I probably didn't allow as much cool as (should?) is required.

Was done over the course of 1hr...I shot a group...waited 2-3min then loaded another.
40.5-41.3gr was the first set.

Waited 15min...

Then did 41.5-42.3gr waiting 2-3min between strings.

Too little?

You were probably ok on the barrel temp, but I can’t be sure. Those barrels can get pretty hot quick, & depending on the contour, heavy vs light, fluting vs non-fluted, can shed the heat at different rates. Only you will know. I like a slight warm feel, like just above lukewarm water before I start next group. If I’m not shooting round robin, I’ll shoot once, bolt out round, wait for gasses to clear (I shoot suppressed), fiddle with something for another 30sec to min, shoot next shot, and repeat till group is done, then wait till barrel has that slightest warm feeling before I start again. That’s not a real world or PRS style pace, but when I’m doing load workups, I try to take as many environmental variables out as I can, and like to think I’m eliminating heat from the long list. On the flip side, if you drag it out too long, winds, air temp, humidity, pressure, all can change drastically too. At 100yds tho, I don’t think those variables come into play as much as the barrel temp. YMMV

 

[XLR308]

M

Believe my COAL was ~2.817 in this load...with CBTO of ~2.136

But why is there a focus on COAL vs CBTO?

For example, I loaded a Berger Hybrid and a ELD-M. I noticed the Ogive on the ELD-M was closer to the bullet nose. As such, even at the exact same COAL, the CBTO on the Hybrids was shorter than the ELD-M, all else equal.

For both bullets to touch the lands at the same time when fired, I would need to load the Hybrid longer. I guess not everyone has a comparator tool so giving the COAL is adequate when comparing the same bullets. But really is not appropriate when comparing different brands.

I find it hard to believe that the 140eldm is longer than the 140 Hybrid at the lands but i only load the 140 Hynrid and havent dabled with the Horny 140.
The 140 Hybrid in a SAAMI .199" freebore with 200 rounds on the barrel is 2.950" on the lands.
Edit: i think i totally missread your post, ofcourse the Hybrid will be a longer COAL its dependent on the ogive and nose profile.
Its similar to comparing a VLD pointed design to a typical Tangent design.
Throwing a football instead of an arrow.

 

[Seymour Fish]

For those that use the Magnetospeed...how much should I factor that thing being strapped to the end of my barrel (and impacting things) when considering the groups?

I don't have a Labradar...unfortunately

a magnetospeed strapped on invalidates your results.

 

[Senor_Barney]

Update...

Moved ahead in development to a hybrid test of bullet seat depths at two different powder weights.

Powder was 41.5gr and 42.3gr of H4350

CBTO using Berger 140gr Hybrids in my AI/AT was 2.242-2.244 (mostly 2.242). I did my best to get a consistent single measurement...

As such, the test was done at following depths:

2.226 (~0.015 off)
2.218 (0.024 off)
2.210 (0.032 off)
2.196 (0.046 off)
2.183 (almost a whopping 0.060 off )

The numbers under each target are Seat depth/avg. Velocity/SD/ES

Yes, I should have done 5-shot or more groups, but I only have so much time, supplies, etc. and went with 3 shots. May be less meaningful in results, I understand.

Likely going with 41.5 and ~0.024 off...or could go with 42.3 and ~0.030 off. Seems like 41.5 has more wiggle room for seat depth.

Very interesting to see avg velocity increase ~20fps over the 5 different seat depths!