Hunting & Fishing 130 AR hybrid or 120/123 AMAX on deer?

stello1001

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    Hey all,

    Just wondering who uses 130 AR hybrids to hunt? I'm mostly curious to see how far out you're using them with success. I'm not trying to hunt super long distances with them but I may just load them in the grendel which has slower MV which is the reason why I ask.

    I know they work great on deer with full power cartridges inside 300 to maybe 400 yards. But the lower grendel velocities have me thinking about it a bit. Shots would be limited to about 200 ish yards (18 inch barrel by the way) and that's stretching it.

    On the other hand, I have 120 and 123 amax bullets too!

    What say the hide?

    ***edit***

    If i had to guess, the 130s would be coming out at the muzzle anywhere around 2420FPS!
     

    rope

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    I have shot caribou with the 130Ar hybrids, they kill like Thor's hammer. In a 6.5 SAUM @ 3200fps, on a broadside shot it liquifies the lungs. Have only shot amax on wolf and coyote, they do a good job as long as I dont hit the shoulder, I prefer a frontal shot.
     
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    stello1001

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    I have shot caribou with the 130Ar hybrids, they kill like Thor's hammer. In a 6.5 SAUM @ 3200fps, on a broadside shot it liquifies the lungs. Have only shot amax on wolf and coyote, they do a good job as long as I dont hit the shoulder, I prefer a frontal shot.

    How far out have you taken the hybrids on game? Just curious on impact velocity!
     

    rope

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    The caribou have been 200-400 yards, leaving a 24" barrel @ 3200fps. Winter hunts, shooting them on the edge of frozen lakes. Get there by way of a snow machine. These are punching tag meat hunts, nothing sexy about it. With a broadside shot 200-400 they are DRT bang flops.
     
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    Rifletuner

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    I know Sam Millard was using them in the past with his 260 Rem. He was pretty happy with them out to a fair distance. Below is one of the hunting video youtube links he posted:

     
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    stello1001

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    I know Sam Millard was using them in the past with his 260 Rem. He was pretty happy with them out to a fair distance. Below is one of the hunting video youtube links he posted:


    This is freaking awesome. Reading the video description, it says most shots were using a 260 or a 6.5-284. The video also shows a target with load info. I believe 43.8 grains of h4350 was the charge weight!

    I'm gonna play around with a ballistic calculator and see what the energy numbers look like at 800 yards with a MV of 3050. I'm going to use that number simply because I have no idea what his MV was and the pronghorn kill was ~80p yards.
    Then I'll compare that with the grendel velocities in the ballistic calculator and see where the grendel is at.

    In all reality, this is only going to be a 200 yards max hunting rifle so I'm thinking I'll be good either way!
     

    powdahound76

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    Have had great success on deer with AMAX and ELDM in several calibers.

    Neck x2, good broadside - many, one poor shot (dialed .2 extra in a rush) popped a spine.
    All dropped in a pile. 1 made it a little ways, then piled up and rolled a ways down the mtn.

    I avoid shoulders if possible when hunting meat and havent hit one to know how they do. Would expect a lot of damage behind the bone.
    Insides are impressively blown to bits and exits are good size.
     

    DeathBeforeDismount

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    Both will kill deer easy. Its really a toss up.

    A 6.5G is going to have significantly less MV than a .260 or 6.5cm. My 18" grendel pushes the 123s around 2300 on a good day. I would probably lean towards the Amax to get a bit more velocity but I am a berger whore and the 130hybrid is the best 6.5mm all around bullet on the planet (followed closely by the 144 hybrid).

    With all that being said a 64gr power point or 75gr amax from a .223 will drop a deer in its tracks with a solid hit. Deer are easy to kill.
     

    stello1001

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    Both will kill deer easy. Its really a toss up.

    A 6.5G is going to have significantly less MV than a .260 or 6.5cm. My 18" grendel pushes the 123s around 2300 on a good day. I would probably lean towards the Amax to get a bit more velocity but I am a berger whore and the 130hybrid is the best 6.5mm all around bullet on the planet (followed closely by the 144 hybrid).

    With all that being said a 64gr power point or 75gr amax from a .223 will drop a deer in its tracks with a solid hit. Deer are easy to kill.

    I also have 77TMK for 223 so I'm good there. I was mostly curious what would work best on the grendel. I did recently acquire some 123 SST but I really do not like those projectiles as much.

    I'm guessing I'll be good either way with hybrids or AMAX bullets!
     

    rookie7

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    To echo what has been said the 120, 123, and 130 will work out of the Grendel.

    I prefer the 123 eld or sst for more explosive speed. I get 2450 out of a 20" Howa with 123 eldm. Killed several deer and coyotes with that setup.

    I also run 123 eldm out of a 6.5 creed and it has a few coyotes and a deer to it's credit.

    I disagree with what was said earlier comparing grendel and creed speeds. Not close at all for me. 2 factory barrels - 20" grendel, 22" creed.

    The grendel is using IMR 8208 for the 2450, and the creed is H4350 for 2915 = not close.

    IMO, the grendel needs to run as fast as possible, so on those long shots the bullet will open and do damage.
     
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    kthomas

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    I just purchased some 123 ELD's to try in my hunting rifle. This will be for mule and whitetail deer.

    My original intent for hunting was to use the factory 143 ELD-X precision hunter that I have a bunch of boxes of. This ammo is disappointingly slow though, moving at only 2500 fps out of my 18" barrel. I was hoping for at least 2600 fps.

    Going to try and work up a recipe for these 123's in the ~2850 - 2900 fps range using some N150 I have on time.

    In shorter barrels, I think lighter bullets are the ticket. F = MV^2.
     
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    stello1001

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    I just purchased some 123 ELD's to try in my hunting rifle. This will be for mule and whitetail deer.

    My original intent for hunting was to use the factory 143 ELD-X precision hunter that I have a bunch of boxes of. This ammo is disappointingly slow though, moving at only 2500 fps out of my 18" barrel. I was hoping for at least 2600 fps.

    Going to try and work up a recipe for these 123's in the ~2850 - 2900 fps range using some N150 I have on time.

    In shorter barrels, I think lighter bullets are the ticket. F = MV^2.

    I'm talking strictly Grendel. To get 2500 FPS with a 123 out of an 18" grendel sounds pretty damn good. Are you maybe talking CM?
     

    kthomas

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    I'm talking strictly Grendel. To get 2500 FPS with a 123 out of an 18" grendel sounds pretty damn good. Are you maybe talking CM?

    My specific case is with a 6.5 Creedmoor.

    Sorry, not Grendel, but I seek to solve the same problems you do by going to a lighter projectile. Velocities will obviously be different, as you point out.
     

    stello1001

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    My specific case is with a 6.5 Creedmoor.

    Sorry, not Grendel, but I seek to solve the same problems you do by going to a lighter projectile. Velocities will obviously be different, as you point out.
    Oh okay I gotcha. In that case, yeah! Those speeds are super slow!

    Agreed, while bigger heavier projectiles may be able to deliver more energy, I think going lighter may help with expansion. Many bullets simply pencil through at low speeds.

    However, in my case, it seems like most are suggesting I'll be fine with said bullets out to the hunting distances we have here!
     
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    rookie7

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    Around here in the southeast the 6.5 creedmoor has developed a reputation as a non-effective killer. I tried to convince a friend it was the bullet not the cartridge. He benched the 6.5 creed that his son was using and got him a 7mm mag. :oops:

    I think the problem has come from hunters using a high bc bullet that would work well on heavy game like elk, etc., but doesn't expand violently enough on the thin skinned deer we have at the ranges that they are being shot. Which in turn equals a sparse blood trail due to small entrance and exit.

    Thousands of deer have been killed around here with the Federal Premium 85gr bthp .243 win ammo. Their vitals look like a grenade exploded in their chest cavity. I feel something between the 115 to 123 gr projectile in the 6.5 creed is going to be ideal for whitetails.
     
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    stello1001

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    Around here in the southeast the 6.5 creedmoor has developed a reputation as a non-effective killer. I tried to convince a friend it was the bullet not the cartridge. He benched the 6.5 creed that his son was using and got him a 7mm mag. :oops:

    I think the problem has come from hunters using a high bc bullet that would work well on heavy game like elk, etc., but doesn't expand violently enough on the thin skinned deer we have at the ranges that they are being shot. Which in turn equals a sparse blood trail due to small entrance and exit.

    Thousands of deer have been killed around here with the Federal Premium 85gr bthp .243 win ammo. Their vitals look like a grenade exploded in their chest cavity. I feel something between the 115 to 123 gr projectile in the 6.5 creed is going to be ideal for whitetails.

    I'm the opposite. I'm trying to move from those long action cartridges that recoil like a mule kick. My dad and I hunted with 270 for the longest time. I transitioned to smaller cartridges like 6.5CM and 308. Now I'm trying to get my dad to downsize. We hunt texas sized whitetails inside 200 yards. These things aren't really all that hard to kill!
     

    Modoc

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    I am getting into the game more coming from a 1 MOA is good enough mindset. Having developed a 1/2 MOA load with Barnes TTSX for the 7-08s and experiencing the improvement in accuracy by dropping weight, for monolithics, I went with a 99g Hammer Hunter for the Grendel. Partially because I could not find any Barnes this year. Several friends had poor results with monolithics in the heavier weights because they couldn’t get expansion velocity beyond 100yds with their rifles.

    Hornady once fired brass loaded with 27.5g of H335 and 2.247 OA. The MV was 2517 fps @ ~450’ ASL and 85+ F. 3 shot groups are <1/2” so far (2). These have been cold barrel on different range sessions. This is looking promising, but needs to be repeatable for POI and group size for half a dozen sessions or more.

    FYI, the rifle is a box stock Howa 1500 mini, 1:8” 20” sportier barrel with a Redfield 4-12x40 and Leupold dovetail rings.
    I‘m hoping to get a deer this season, but life is really starting to impact hunting season.
     

    stello1001

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    I am getting into the game more coming from a 1 MOA is good enough mindset. Having developed a 1/2 MOA load with Barnes TTSX for the 7-08s and experiencing the improvement in accuracy by dropping weight, for monolithics, I went with a 99g Hammer Hunter for the Grendel. Partially because I could not find any Barnes this year. Several friends had poor results with monolithics in the heavier weights because they couldn’t get expansion velocity beyond 100yds with their rifles.

    Hornady once fired brass loaded with 27.5g of H335 and 2.247 OA. The MV was 2517 fps @ ~450’ ASL and 85+ F. 3 shot groups are <1/2” so far (2). These have been cold barrel on different range sessions. This is looking promising, but needs to be repeatable for POI and group size for half a dozen sessions or more.

    FYI, the rifle is a box stock Howa 1500 mini, 1:8” 20” sportier barrel with a Redfield 4-12x40 and Leupold dovetail rings.
    I‘m hoping to get a deer this season, but life is really starting to impact hunting season.

    Oh what a coincidence. The one I have is also a howa mini but I had it chopped down to 18" just because I wanted something more handy for use with suppressor!

    In all reality, the 120 gold dots are what I really wanted but they're nowhere to be found!
     

    Modoc

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    Oh what a coincidence. The one I have is also a howa mini but I had it chopped down to 18" just because I wanted something more handy for use with suppressor!

    In all reality, the 120 gold dots are what I really wanted but they're nowhere to be found!
    @stello1001, I hear you, since I was looking for the 115g Barnes Tac-TSX when I found the Hammer Bullets. Having to use Lead Free Projectiles here in the PDRK (Peoples Democratic Republic of Kalifornia) is a PITA even though they can be very accurate. I was looking for a LF bullet that expands under 2000 fps For use in the Grendel.
     

    powdahound76

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    I just purchased some 123 ELD's to try in my hunting rifle. This will be for mule and whitetail deer.

    My original intent for hunting was to use the factory 143 ELD-X precision hunter that I have a bunch of boxes of. This ammo is disappointingly slow though, moving at only 2500 fps out of my 18" barrel. I was hoping for at least 2600 fps.

    Going to try and work up a recipe for these 123's in the ~2850 - 2900 fps range using some N150 I have on time.

    In shorter barrels, I think lighter bullets are the ticket. F = MV^2.
    I just received some 123gr Lapua Scenars for exactly this plan.
    Gonna do a little experiment for my daughters hunting rifle. 😎
    Should be able to get them hauling butt from a 24” barrel.

    Around here in the southeast the 6.5 creedmoor has developed a reputation as a non-effective killer. I tried to convince a friend it was the bullet not the cartridge. He benched the 6.5 creed that his son was using and got him a 7mm mag. :oops:

    I think the problem has come from hunters using a high bc bullet that would work well on heavy game like elk, etc., but doesn't expand violently enough on the thin skinned deer we have at the ranges that they are being shot. Which in turn equals a sparse blood trail due to small entrance and exit.

    Thousands of deer have been killed around here with the Federal Premium 85gr bthp .243 win ammo. Their vitals look like a grenade exploded in their chest cavity. I feel something between the 115 to 123 gr projectile in the 6.5 creed is going to be ideal for whitetails.
    I had amazing bang/flop my first year on whitetails with the 6.5 Manbun. Was very impressed.
    One fell dead, other fell, then made a little 10 yd struggle in the brush I couldnt see till recovery and a little blood trail.

    140 eldm handloads at 2850.
    450 and 400 yds respectively.
     

    kthomas

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    I just received some 123gr Lapua Scenars for exactly this plan.
    Gonna do a little experiment for my daughters hunting rifle. 😎
    Should be able to get them hauling butt from a 24” barrel.

    The Lapua Scenars seem like a great choice, I may pick some up to play with as well.

    Speed kills.
     
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    powdahound76

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    The Lapua Scenars seem like a great choice, I may pick some up to play with as well.

    Speed kills.
    Shot the 136 and 139 in my old 260 and they are crazy consistent.

    Will update in a week or so when I test a little ladder with them. 😁
     
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    bobke

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    From testing this week at 90d/35RH at 1400’, 120 Scenar/27.0 AR Comp/CCI450 is 2565fps in 20” Proof 6.5 Grendel. 20” Proof 6.5 CM with 123 Scenar 42.3 H4350/F210M is 2780ish. A ways to go to deer season in S. Tx, but feeling optimistic of a positive outcome with both. Pushing Grendel a bit, and more headroom with CM, but don’t feel need to push brass too hard. Hornady brass in both.