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Re: 155g to 1200yards
You need a high BC bullet like Bergers or Lapua Scenar. In 308, at least 155 grain, and close to max powder load of Varget or other similar good powder. I shoot 155 Lapua Scenars with 47 grains of Varget and they will make it 1200 yards out of my 20" barrel Sako. They chrony at 2800 fps. That is at 5000' elevation.
Use jbm ballistics to determine at what distance your bullet will go subsonic. That is an indication of about how far you can shoot. How far that will be for you depends on a lot of factors, barrel length, altitude, temperature, powder, bullet etc.
You need a high BC bullet like Bergers or Lapua Scenar. In 308, at least 155 grain, and close to max powder load of Varget or other similar good powder. I shoot 155 Lapua Scenars with 47 grains of Varget and they will make it 1200 yards out of my 20" barrel Sako. They chrony at 2800 fps. That is at 5000' elevation.
Use jbm ballistics to determine at what distance your bullet will go subsonic. That is an indication of about how far you can shoot. How far that will be for you depends on a lot of factors, barrel length, altitude, temperature, powder, bullet etc.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Whats your definition of "accurately"? 1200 yards is pushing it. Initial number crunching in JBM shows you would probably need that bullet going 2950 or so to get to that range with any consistency. But, as stated in above post, it will really depend where you are shooting from (station pressure, etc).
Whats your definition of "accurately"? 1200 yards is pushing it. Initial number crunching in JBM shows you would probably need that bullet going 2950 or so to get to that range with any consistency. But, as stated in above post, it will really depend where you are shooting from (station pressure, etc).
Re: 155g to 1200yards
I recently ran the Lapua Scenar 155s @ 2910 out of a 26" PSS, they did well out to about 1050-1100, I predict they went subsonic at around this range and they didn't make the transition well. Great bullet if you can get the velocity, if you cant get in the 2900 + fps range, you are better off with 175s IMO.
Kirk R
I recently ran the Lapua Scenar 155s @ 2910 out of a 26" PSS, they did well out to about 1050-1100, I predict they went subsonic at around this range and they didn't make the transition well. Great bullet if you can get the velocity, if you cant get in the 2900 + fps range, you are better off with 175s IMO.
Kirk R
Re: 155g to 1200yards
I was pushing 155 scenars at 2930 out of a GAP Crusader. The farthest I ever pushed it was 1165yds. First shot was just under a 12" plate and dead on for wind. Rapid followup holding just on the top edge of the plate and I hit center. I only engaged the target twice, but it seemed consistent at that distance. That was with a DA of 600ft.
Hope this info helps.
I was pushing 155 scenars at 2930 out of a GAP Crusader. The farthest I ever pushed it was 1165yds. First shot was just under a 12" plate and dead on for wind. Rapid followup holding just on the top edge of the plate and I hit center. I only engaged the target twice, but it seemed consistent at that distance. That was with a DA of 600ft.
Hope this info helps.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Get them to 2950fps-3k if possible.
Get them to 2950fps-3k if possible.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
To shoot the Commonwealth Palma (bullseye) course-of-fire most competitors will use a barrel from 28 to 30 inches long to push bullets from 2850 to 2950 fps to guarantee 155-grain bullets (Sierra 2155 Match Kings, 2156 Palma Match Kings, Hornadys, and Bergers) remain supersonic to 1,100 yards/1,000 meters.
To shoot the Commonwealth Palma (bullseye) course-of-fire most competitors will use a barrel from 28 to 30 inches long to push bullets from 2850 to 2950 fps to guarantee 155-grain bullets (Sierra 2155 Match Kings, 2156 Palma Match Kings, Hornadys, and Bergers) remain supersonic to 1,100 yards/1,000 meters.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
You've got to get the 155 Scenar up to 2900fps to get it to perform like that. My buddy has an AW with (I think) a 26" barrel and using my 155 Scenar load (46.5gr N540) made hits on 10x17" steel at that distance. I'm not sure what the drop was at that distance but I'm fairly certain he was launching them close to 3000fps.
You've got to get the 155 Scenar up to 2900fps to get it to perform like that. My buddy has an AW with (I think) a 26" barrel and using my 155 Scenar load (46.5gr N540) made hits on 10x17" steel at that distance. I'm not sure what the drop was at that distance but I'm fairly certain he was launching them close to 3000fps.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Got mine out to 1450 yards, with repeat hits under one setting. But I load mine at 48 grains of Varget and pushing it around 3000 fps.
"Accurately" is relative. At 1200 yards, there are other cartridges that are far better in accuracy. When you have a bullet that enters the transition zone accuracy is what I define, IMHO, as hitting the target.
Got mine out to 1450 yards, with repeat hits under one setting. But I load mine at 48 grains of Varget and pushing it around 3000 fps.
"Accurately" is relative. At 1200 yards, there are other cartridges that are far better in accuracy. When you have a bullet that enters the transition zone accuracy is what I define, IMHO, as hitting the target.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
I've had great luck with 155 scenars, lapua brass, 46 grains of varget, 2.95 coal - very accurate out of my 26" trg. I believe 2900ish (from memory). I have shot the mile plate at TVP with that load (not to mention all the other distances).
Mike
I've had great luck with 155 scenars, lapua brass, 46 grains of varget, 2.95 coal - very accurate out of my 26" trg. I believe 2900ish (from memory). I have shot the mile plate at TVP with that load (not to mention all the other distances).
Mike
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308!
Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308!
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Wow..
Hey Mike, I was typing while you were posting..lol. I tell guys about that day and they shake their head in disbelief.
The 155 and 175 out of .308 will do a mile no problem with accuracy. Makes you wonder if transonic really means anything at all. I know most of the time out to one mile it doesn't.
After tuning and training 100's of rifles and customers the last few years most all of them have been out to a mile accurately. And most of these are the good ol'work horse of tactical and sniper work..the .308 win. The 155 out of a 30/06 or .300 wsm is AWESOME. 30/06 is a .308 magnum and a .300 wsm is a .308 on steriods.
Wow..
Hey Mike, I was typing while you were posting..lol. I tell guys about that day and they shake their head in disbelief.
The 155 and 175 out of .308 will do a mile no problem with accuracy. Makes you wonder if transonic really means anything at all. I know most of the time out to one mile it doesn't.
After tuning and training 100's of rifles and customers the last few years most all of them have been out to a mile accurately. And most of these are the good ol'work horse of tactical and sniper work..the .308 win. The 155 out of a 30/06 or .300 wsm is AWESOME. 30/06 is a .308 magnum and a .300 wsm is a .308 on steriods.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
The transonic stage turbulence theory is inaccurate in itself. Having said this, I shot 178 AMAX to 1460 a year and a half ago and was only pushing them at 2700 fps. I hit a 18x22 plate 9 shots in a row... Firs shot was just south of the plate
The transonic stage turbulence theory is inaccurate in itself. Having said this, I shot 178 AMAX to 1460 a year and a half ago and was only pushing them at 2700 fps. I hit a 18x22 plate 9 shots in a row... Firs shot was just south of the plate
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Shooter21,
I have a theory on this. But I will not hi-jack the man's thread. All in all the 155's will shoot looooonng range with accuracy if pushed a certain speed and if.. it is launched "straight".
Shooter21,
I have a theory on this. But I will not hi-jack the man's thread. All in all the 155's will shoot looooonng range with accuracy if pushed a certain speed and if.. it is launched "straight".
Re: 155g to 1200yards
If the load and rifle will shoot 1 inch or less at 300, it will go accurate to wherever it hits the dirt, BUT wind is a HUGE factor at extended ranges for light bullets
If the load and rifle will shoot 1 inch or less at 300, it will go accurate to wherever it hits the dirt, BUT wind is a HUGE factor at extended ranges for light bullets
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Just for the heck of it, one one day I loaded up some 155 LS. in the .300 Hulk. 3500+ fps and they didn't blow up. 17 moa to 1000 yards and 57 moa to one mile. Which kind of suprized me how accurate they where at that speed. From 100 yard zero to 700 yards I never had to touch the scope on our steel man sized targets 18"x30" Simply a laser out to to 500. At 700 yards I held on top of the head at hit steel in a timed event, where there simply was no time to adjust scope.
Just for the heck of it, one one day I loaded up some 155 LS. in the .300 Hulk. 3500+ fps and they didn't blow up. 17 moa to 1000 yards and 57 moa to one mile. Which kind of suprized me how accurate they where at that speed. From 100 yard zero to 700 yards I never had to touch the scope on our steel man sized targets 18"x30" Simply a laser out to to 500. At 700 yards I held on top of the head at hit steel in a timed event, where there simply was no time to adjust scope.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
So the 155s have to leave @ 29ish to be any benifit over the 175s?
So the 155s have to leave @ 29ish to be any benifit over the 175s?
Re: 155g to 1200yards
I've taken the 155 Scenar to a mile at 2900 fps mv. 88moa, at 4500ft, pressure about 25.60 Hg.
At the time I was really playing with some 208s at 2620 fps. I had them dialed in at a mile, at 90 moa. I had a few rounds of 155 Scenar on hand so I gave it a whirl with the same dope, and hit 2 moa high. Corrected down 2 moa, and the following rounds were on target.
I've taken the 155 Scenar to a mile at 2900 fps mv. 88moa, at 4500ft, pressure about 25.60 Hg.
At the time I was really playing with some 208s at 2620 fps. I had them dialed in at a mile, at 90 moa. I had a few rounds of 155 Scenar on hand so I gave it a whirl with the same dope, and hit 2 moa high. Corrected down 2 moa, and the following rounds were on target.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toddconley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the 155s have to leave @ 29ish to be any benifit over the 175s?</div></div>
Yes, they outperform 175s at long range but only at high velocity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toddconley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the 155s have to leave @ 29ish to be any benifit over the 175s?</div></div>
Yes, they outperform 175s at long range but only at high velocity.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've taken the 155 Scenar to a mile at 2900 fps mv. 88moa, at 4500ft, pressure about 25.60 Hg.
At the time I was really playing with some 208s at 2620 fps. I had them dialed in at a mile, at 90 moa. I had a few rounds of 155 Scenar on hand so I gave it a whirl with the same dope, and hit 2 moa high. Corrected down 2 moa, and the following rounds were on target. </div></div>
What's the flight time? Bang, sip some coffee, check watch, back on scope, watch the hit? lol.
Branden
Side Note: I haven't messed with 155's yet, i've taken the 175's @ 2650 out to 1180 and had ok results I suppose. Wind was a little tricky, not heavy, but coming at me from 10 to 11 o'clock, sometimes 12. I only have a 10x scope too so that causes aiming inconsistencies.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've taken the 155 Scenar to a mile at 2900 fps mv. 88moa, at 4500ft, pressure about 25.60 Hg.
At the time I was really playing with some 208s at 2620 fps. I had them dialed in at a mile, at 90 moa. I had a few rounds of 155 Scenar on hand so I gave it a whirl with the same dope, and hit 2 moa high. Corrected down 2 moa, and the following rounds were on target. </div></div>
What's the flight time? Bang, sip some coffee, check watch, back on scope, watch the hit? lol.
Branden
Side Note: I haven't messed with 155's yet, i've taken the 175's @ 2650 out to 1180 and had ok results I suppose. Wind was a little tricky, not heavy, but coming at me from 10 to 11 o'clock, sometimes 12. I only have a 10x scope too so that causes aiming inconsistencies.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
About 3.5 seconds.....grin
About 3.5 seconds.....grin
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Thanks guys for all the responses,
The projectiles I'm using are Dyer HBC's with a BC of .462 and they were fired from a 30" Tobler barrel. I made some up with Winchester cases @ 48g of Varget/ADI 2208. The projectile had 0.150" contact between the bearing surface and the neck of the casing to avoid compressing the load. They were cruising at just over 3000fps when I put them over a chrono the other day with minimal signs of pressure showing on the primer. The 47.8 load was around 2900fps and after reading your responses I think I will choose these two loads to test when I get to the 1200yrd range in two weeks time to find the best one.Glad to know I don't have to try and jam any more powder in to the casings as there wasn't too much room left. I will post the plot sheet and video (if I can get someone to catch it on cam for me) on completion of the test. Thanks again for the feed back.
Thanks guys for all the responses,
The projectiles I'm using are Dyer HBC's with a BC of .462 and they were fired from a 30" Tobler barrel. I made some up with Winchester cases @ 48g of Varget/ADI 2208. The projectile had 0.150" contact between the bearing surface and the neck of the casing to avoid compressing the load. They were cruising at just over 3000fps when I put them over a chrono the other day with minimal signs of pressure showing on the primer. The 47.8 load was around 2900fps and after reading your responses I think I will choose these two loads to test when I get to the 1200yrd range in two weeks time to find the best one.Glad to know I don't have to try and jam any more powder in to the casings as there wasn't too much room left. I will post the plot sheet and video (if I can get someone to catch it on cam for me) on completion of the test. Thanks again for the feed back.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooter21,
I have a theory on this. But I will not hi-jack the man's thread. All in all the 155's will shoot looooonng range with accuracy if pushed a certain speed and if.. it is launched "straight". </div></div>
Feel free and hijack away Tom I for one would be very interested to hear it. I'm still astounded and eager to try shooting a clay at 1000yrds myself after reading your post on that. My best hit so far was an x-ring hit @ 600yrds with a 6mph cross wind on the first sighter while shooting in my local F-Class comp.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooter21,
I have a theory on this. But I will not hi-jack the man's thread. All in all the 155's will shoot looooonng range with accuracy if pushed a certain speed and if.. it is launched "straight". </div></div>
Feel free and hijack away Tom I for one would be very interested to hear it. I'm still astounded and eager to try shooting a clay at 1000yrds myself after reading your post on that. My best hit so far was an x-ring hit @ 600yrds with a 6mph cross wind on the first sighter while shooting in my local F-Class comp.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308RUG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooter21,
I have a theory on this. But I will not hi-jack the man's thread. All in all the 155's will shoot looooonng range with accuracy if pushed a certain speed and if.. it is launched "straight". </div></div>
Feel free and hijack away Tom I for one would be very interested to hear it. I'm still astounded and eager to try shooting a clay at 1000yrds myself after reading your post on that. My best hit so far was an x-ring hit @ 600yrds with a 6mph cross wind on the first sighter while shooting in my local F-Class comp.</div></div>
Think that's fun? Try an 8" plate with a 223 and 3 directional wind at 3-11 kts from 1k. It's amazing how different things look when you are the driver and not on a forum. The best thing to do is get out and try it, if it won't work, try better.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308RUG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooter21,
I have a theory on this. But I will not hi-jack the man's thread. All in all the 155's will shoot looooonng range with accuracy if pushed a certain speed and if.. it is launched "straight". </div></div>
Feel free and hijack away Tom I for one would be very interested to hear it. I'm still astounded and eager to try shooting a clay at 1000yrds myself after reading your post on that. My best hit so far was an x-ring hit @ 600yrds with a 6mph cross wind on the first sighter while shooting in my local F-Class comp.</div></div>
Think that's fun? Try an 8" plate with a 223 and 3 directional wind at 3-11 kts from 1k. It's amazing how different things look when you are the driver and not on a forum. The best thing to do is get out and try it, if it won't work, try better.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Great advice!
Most shooters don't really know their limitations because of the "norm" so to say. If they have the right direction and range to push those limits..they soon learn that average is just average. Most all rifles with good optics and loads will shoot long range. Some more accurate than others obviously but it becomes a stepping stone for them to learn.
155's will perform flawlessly at 2900+ fps. Speeds above 2800 will punch perfect holes thru paper at 1200 yards at our 1000 ft elevation. If those reading this are near by, please schedule a day to come out and run them out as far as you would like. I will spot for you and help you out if you need it.
Great advice!
Most shooters don't really know their limitations because of the "norm" so to say. If they have the right direction and range to push those limits..they soon learn that average is just average. Most all rifles with good optics and loads will shoot long range. Some more accurate than others obviously but it becomes a stepping stone for them to learn.
155's will perform flawlessly at 2900+ fps. Speeds above 2800 will punch perfect holes thru paper at 1200 yards at our 1000 ft elevation. If those reading this are near by, please schedule a day to come out and run them out as far as you would like. I will spot for you and help you out if you need it.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Mr Sarver mail box is full. Dont want to hijack this thread but I would like to ask you a question or two.
Thanks,
T
Mr Sarver mail box is full. Dont want to hijack this thread but I would like to ask you a question or two.
Thanks,
T
Re: 155g to 1200yards
T
E-mail me at [email protected] or call me at 740-502-6530.
I cleaned my PM box out so I should be able to receive there but they fill up quick!
T
E-mail me at [email protected] or call me at 740-502-6530.
I cleaned my PM box out so I should be able to receive there but they fill up quick!
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Run a ballistics table but work your way out 100 yards at a time if you can. That way you can correct your ballistics table as you go out.
Run a ballistics table but work your way out 100 yards at a time if you can. That way you can correct your ballistics table as you go out.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Shooter21,
Try an 8" plate with a 223 and 3 directional wind at 3-11 kts from 1k
Something else to have a crack at when I get good enough to have constant hits at longer ranges
Tom,
155's will perform flawlessly at 2900+ fps,
Am I better off to keep the velocity lower rather than higher so the projectile gets there comfortably but is not over powered or is it better to get the projectile there as fast as possible without having a dangerous load to avoid buffeting by wind conditions and reducing the bullet drop.
Sniperaviator,
Thanks for the advice,
I've downloaded the ballistics program from pejsa.com
Shooter21,
Try an 8" plate with a 223 and 3 directional wind at 3-11 kts from 1k
Something else to have a crack at when I get good enough to have constant hits at longer ranges
Tom,
155's will perform flawlessly at 2900+ fps,
Am I better off to keep the velocity lower rather than higher so the projectile gets there comfortably but is not over powered or is it better to get the projectile there as fast as possible without having a dangerous load to avoid buffeting by wind conditions and reducing the bullet drop.
Sniperaviator,
Thanks for the advice,
I've downloaded the ballistics program from pejsa.com
Re: 155g to 1200yards
The formula for 155's in Palma Competition was/is to use a longer barrel, slower twist, and milk the most velocity possible out of the combination. This was evolved to mean (conservatively) 28-32" barrels, 1:14" twists, and charges somewhere around 46.0gr of Varget (back when ammo was issued).
Greg
The formula for 155's in Palma Competition was/is to use a longer barrel, slower twist, and milk the most velocity possible out of the combination. This was evolved to mean (conservatively) 28-32" barrels, 1:14" twists, and charges somewhere around 46.0gr of Varget (back when ammo was issued).
Greg
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Thanks Greg,
Running a 30" barrel with 1:13 twist. So sounds like it will do the job. Have made loads up as far as 48g using varget and the pressure signs were minimal when I fired them off.So sounds like I will be able to back them off a bit which will do just fine. Hopefully will be good weather this week end when I will be going down to the local range(700yrds) so I can do some group testing from 300Yrds before I get to the big range(1200yrds) the following weekend.
Cheers
Thanks Greg,
Running a 30" barrel with 1:13 twist. So sounds like it will do the job. Have made loads up as far as 48g using varget and the pressure signs were minimal when I fired them off.So sounds like I will be able to back them off a bit which will do just fine. Hopefully will be good weather this week end when I will be going down to the local range(700yrds) so I can do some group testing from 300Yrds before I get to the big range(1200yrds) the following weekend.
Cheers
Re: 155g to 1200yards
For 1000yd, definitely. For beyond, maybe not; I can't vouch for the .308 so much further out. 'S why I dropped teh .308 for the .260.
For 1000yd, definitely. For beyond, maybe not; I can't vouch for the .308 so much further out. 'S why I dropped teh .308 for the .260.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308!</div></div>
Tom is right,...the NRA here mandate their own RUAG loaded 155gr round fired at 2950 (30") and most advocate a 1-13 twist for this. The load was specified for NRA competitions so as to remain sonic to 1000yds.
In the right rifle/shooter combination it works well to the 1k mark.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308!</div></div>
Tom is right,...the NRA here mandate their own RUAG loaded 155gr round fired at 2950 (30") and most advocate a 1-13 twist for this. The load was specified for NRA competitions so as to remain sonic to 1000yds.
In the right rifle/shooter combination it works well to the 1k mark.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308!</div></div>
Tom is right,...the NRA here mandate their own RUAG loaded 155gr round fired at 2950 (30") and most advocate a 1-13 twist for this. The load was specified for NRA competitions so as to remain sonic to 1000yds.
In the right rifle/shooter combination it works well to the 1k mark.
All said,...this is pushing the envelope with .308 and .260 Rem is so much easier, as Greg remarked.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308!</div></div>
Tom is right,...the NRA here mandate their own RUAG loaded 155gr round fired at 2950 (30") and most advocate a 1-13 twist for this. The load was specified for NRA competitions so as to remain sonic to 1000yds.
In the right rifle/shooter combination it works well to the 1k mark.
All said,...this is pushing the envelope with .308 and .260 Rem is so much easier, as Greg remarked.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Original Commonwealth Palma match rules specified the host country for the every-four-years (quadrennial) event was to provide ammo for all competitors, thus the standard 155-grain .308 bullet and generic 1-13 twist.
That rule went out the window in the 90s, but the standard remained at 155-grains so no competitor nation got unfair advantage.
The English for many, many years got free surplus ammo from British stocks, and they are legally restricted and licensed to very few guns per person (they specifically have to show NEED for a certain type gun). They built many very good three- and four-lug actions specifically tailored around the .308 to fire generic ball really well.
The Commonwealth Palma chamber has long freebore to get as much powder into a standard 308 case as possible with a British GI Ball or 155-Sierra bullet to launch the bullet to 1,000+ accurately.
260s (and other 6 to 7mm bullets) came from different games than Palma which is restricted to .308 Winchester.
Original Commonwealth Palma match rules specified the host country for the every-four-years (quadrennial) event was to provide ammo for all competitors, thus the standard 155-grain .308 bullet and generic 1-13 twist.
That rule went out the window in the 90s, but the standard remained at 155-grains so no competitor nation got unfair advantage.
The English for many, many years got free surplus ammo from British stocks, and they are legally restricted and licensed to very few guns per person (they specifically have to show NEED for a certain type gun). They built many very good three- and four-lug actions specifically tailored around the .308 to fire generic ball really well.
The Commonwealth Palma chamber has long freebore to get as much powder into a standard 308 case as possible with a British GI Ball or 155-Sierra bullet to launch the bullet to 1,000+ accurately.
260s (and other 6 to 7mm bullets) came from different games than Palma which is restricted to .308 Winchester.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Original Commonwealth Palma match rules specified the host country for the every-four-years (quadrennial) event was to provide ammo for all competitors, thus the standard 155-grain .308 bullet and generic 1-13 twist.
That rule went out the window in the 90s, but the standard remained at 155-grains so no competitor nation got unfair advantage.
The English for many, many years got free surplus ammo from British stocks, and they are legally restricted and licensed to very few guns per person (they specifically have to show NEED for a certain type gun). They built many very good three- and four-lug actions specifically tailored around the .308 to fire generic ball really well.
The Commonwealth Palma chamber has long freebore to get as much powder into a standard 308 case as possible with a British GI Ball or 155-Sierra bullet to launch the bullet to 1,000+ accurately.
260s (and other 6 to 7mm bullets) came from different games than Palma which is restricted to .308 Winchester.</div></div>
UK MoD military ball has never been 155gr and the ammo issued to the NRA was never surplus standard ball ammo. The deal was that in exchange for use of the range facilities the Military provided sponsorship for the major meetings in the form of ammunition. This ammo was RG Green spot Sniper grade and always recent manufacture.
Bisley lacks the targetry the Military currently needs and as such ammo sponsorship ceased. The UK NRA entered into contract with RUAG to supply a 155gr match round for all competitions.
UK FAC holders have no limit as such on the number of firearms they may posess but do haveto show need and that they have suitable ground to shoot on with adequate insurance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Original Commonwealth Palma match rules specified the host country for the every-four-years (quadrennial) event was to provide ammo for all competitors, thus the standard 155-grain .308 bullet and generic 1-13 twist.
That rule went out the window in the 90s, but the standard remained at 155-grains so no competitor nation got unfair advantage.
The English for many, many years got free surplus ammo from British stocks, and they are legally restricted and licensed to very few guns per person (they specifically have to show NEED for a certain type gun). They built many very good three- and four-lug actions specifically tailored around the .308 to fire generic ball really well.
The Commonwealth Palma chamber has long freebore to get as much powder into a standard 308 case as possible with a British GI Ball or 155-Sierra bullet to launch the bullet to 1,000+ accurately.
260s (and other 6 to 7mm bullets) came from different games than Palma which is restricted to .308 Winchester.</div></div>
UK MoD military ball has never been 155gr and the ammo issued to the NRA was never surplus standard ball ammo. The deal was that in exchange for use of the range facilities the Military provided sponsorship for the major meetings in the form of ammunition. This ammo was RG Green spot Sniper grade and always recent manufacture.
Bisley lacks the targetry the Military currently needs and as such ammo sponsorship ceased. The UK NRA entered into contract with RUAG to supply a 155gr match round for all competitions.
UK FAC holders have no limit as such on the number of firearms they may posess but do haveto show need and that they have suitable ground to shoot on with adequate insurance.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Hi Emouse
Our law makers here in Aust. must have taken a leaf from your book as that rule sounds very similar to our gun ownership laws.
The rifle I'm working the load up for which is my F-class rifle, I wish to use as a spare for our Match rifle comp here in Aust. The standard rifle I use is a .308 Savage with a 1:9 barrel. I use 208Amax and 94.5g of ADI 2209 that well and truly gets there. My F-class rifle the one using 155g I didn't want to play with as It shoots well already, I've Just never used it past 1000yrds and didn't have a load made up for it to do so. But Thanks to all the help and advice on here I am now very close to doing so, just a little more testing to go and I think it will come off pretty good.
Cheers
Hi Emouse
Our law makers here in Aust. must have taken a leaf from your book as that rule sounds very similar to our gun ownership laws.
The rifle I'm working the load up for which is my F-class rifle, I wish to use as a spare for our Match rifle comp here in Aust. The standard rifle I use is a .308 Savage with a 1:9 barrel. I use 208Amax and 94.5g of ADI 2209 that well and truly gets there. My F-class rifle the one using 155g I didn't want to play with as It shoots well already, I've Just never used it past 1000yrds and didn't have a load made up for it to do so. But Thanks to all the help and advice on here I am now very close to doing so, just a little more testing to go and I think it will come off pretty good.
Cheers
Re: 155g to 1200yards
emouse, thank you -- I stand corrected as I have never shot Palma overseas nor am I familiar with UK laws and practices.
I understand Radway Green L2A2 Ball was around 144 to 147 grains. My poor memory seems to be that the British military did make ammo available to British NRA competitors, thus the penchant for former military or bolt-action rifles barreled to 7.62 such as Swings and Paramounts.
A snip from an old on-line Palma article:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1985 the match rules required that each shooter be responsible for providing a rifle meeting the requirement of the target rifle as laid down by the host country. The rules of the National Rifle Association of Great Britain were generous and allowed for a bolt action rifle weighing as much as 12 pounds with a trigger pull slightly over three pounds.
The rifle had to be chambered for the 7.62mm NATO round, our .308 Winchester cartridge. The match officials control this by allowing only ammunition issued on the line to be used in matches. The standard British service rifle ammunition at that time was L2A2 Military Ball. It is a cartridge that is similar to the United States issue M80 Ball and, like its American counterpart, not designed for target or long range use. All shooters are issued ammunition from the same lot to insure that conditions are as uniform as possible.</div></div>
emouse, thank you -- I stand corrected as I have never shot Palma overseas nor am I familiar with UK laws and practices.
I understand Radway Green L2A2 Ball was around 144 to 147 grains. My poor memory seems to be that the British military did make ammo available to British NRA competitors, thus the penchant for former military or bolt-action rifles barreled to 7.62 such as Swings and Paramounts.
A snip from an old on-line Palma article:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1985 the match rules required that each shooter be responsible for providing a rifle meeting the requirement of the target rifle as laid down by the host country. The rules of the National Rifle Association of Great Britain were generous and allowed for a bolt action rifle weighing as much as 12 pounds with a trigger pull slightly over three pounds.
The rifle had to be chambered for the 7.62mm NATO round, our .308 Winchester cartridge. The match officials control this by allowing only ammunition issued on the line to be used in matches. The standard British service rifle ammunition at that time was L2A2 Military Ball. It is a cartridge that is similar to the United States issue M80 Ball and, like its American counterpart, not designed for target or long range use. All shooters are issued ammunition from the same lot to insure that conditions are as uniform as possible.</div></div>
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">emouse, thank you -- I stand corrected as I have never shot Palma overseas nor am I familiar with UK laws and practices.
I understand Radway Green L2A2 Ball was around 144 to 147 grains. My poor memory seems to be that the British military did make ammo available to British NRA competitors, thus the penchant for former military or bolt-action rifles barreled to 7.62 such as Swings and Paramounts.
A snip from an old on-line Palma article:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1985 the match rules required that each shooter be responsible for providing a rifle meeting the requirement of the target rifle as laid down by the host country. The rules of the National Rifle Association of Great Britain were generous and allowed for a bolt action rifle weighing as much as 12 pounds with a trigger pull slightly over three pounds.
The rifle had to be chambered for the 7.62mm NATO round, our .308 Winchester cartridge. The match officials control this by allowing only ammunition issued on the line to be used in matches. The standard British service rifle ammunition at that time was L2A2 Military Ball. It is a cartridge that is similar to the United States issue M80 Ball and, like its American counterpart, not designed for target or long range use. All shooters are issued ammunition from the same lot to insure that conditions are as uniform as possible.</div></div>
</div></div>
Probably not "designed" for long range but Sniper Green spot was certainly "designed for targets"!
;-)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">emouse, thank you -- I stand corrected as I have never shot Palma overseas nor am I familiar with UK laws and practices.
I understand Radway Green L2A2 Ball was around 144 to 147 grains. My poor memory seems to be that the British military did make ammo available to British NRA competitors, thus the penchant for former military or bolt-action rifles barreled to 7.62 such as Swings and Paramounts.
A snip from an old on-line Palma article:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In 1985 the match rules required that each shooter be responsible for providing a rifle meeting the requirement of the target rifle as laid down by the host country. The rules of the National Rifle Association of Great Britain were generous and allowed for a bolt action rifle weighing as much as 12 pounds with a trigger pull slightly over three pounds.
The rifle had to be chambered for the 7.62mm NATO round, our .308 Winchester cartridge. The match officials control this by allowing only ammunition issued on the line to be used in matches. The standard British service rifle ammunition at that time was L2A2 Military Ball. It is a cartridge that is similar to the United States issue M80 Ball and, like its American counterpart, not designed for target or long range use. All shooters are issued ammunition from the same lot to insure that conditions are as uniform as possible.</div></div>
</div></div>
Probably not "designed" for long range but Sniper Green spot was certainly "designed for targets"!
;-)
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I clocked the NRA RUAG at 2680 from my 24" with an ES of 38 and SD of 14.0, 95% of 15.1 fyi</div></div>
Good info.
If it helps the G1 BC for the RUAG 155's is 0.422 or a G7 of 0.220
These are RUAG's own test figures from a 30" barrel at 2950fps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I clocked the NRA RUAG at 2680 from my 24" with an ES of 38 and SD of 14.0, 95% of 15.1 fyi</div></div>
Good info.
If it helps the G1 BC for the RUAG 155's is 0.422 or a G7 of 0.220
These are RUAG's own test figures from a 30" barrel at 2950fps.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308RUG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi Emouse
Our law makers here in Aust. must have taken a leaf from your book as that rule sounds very similar to our gun ownership laws.
The rifle I'm working the load up for which is my F-class rifle, I wish to use as a spare for our Match rifle comp here in Aust. The standard rifle I use is a .308 Savage with a 1:9 barrel. I use 208Amax and 94.5g of ADI 2209 that well and truly gets there. My F-class rifle the one using 155g I didn't want to play with as It shoots well already, I've Just never used it past 1000yrds and didn't have a load made up for it to do so. But Thanks to all the help and advice on here I am now very close to doing so, just a little more testing to go and I think it will come off pretty good.
Cheers
</div></div>
What is your experience with the HBC Palma rounds? I understand they may arrive here soon for us to try?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308RUG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi Emouse
Our law makers here in Aust. must have taken a leaf from your book as that rule sounds very similar to our gun ownership laws.
The rifle I'm working the load up for which is my F-class rifle, I wish to use as a spare for our Match rifle comp here in Aust. The standard rifle I use is a .308 Savage with a 1:9 barrel. I use 208Amax and 94.5g of ADI 2209 that well and truly gets there. My F-class rifle the one using 155g I didn't want to play with as It shoots well already, I've Just never used it past 1000yrds and didn't have a load made up for it to do so. But Thanks to all the help and advice on here I am now very close to doing so, just a little more testing to go and I think it will come off pretty good.
Cheers
</div></div>
What is your experience with the HBC Palma rounds? I understand they may arrive here soon for us to try?
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308RUG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi Emouse
Our law makers here in Aust. must have taken a leaf from your book as that rule sounds very similar to our gun ownership laws.
The rifle I'm working the load up for which is my F-class rifle, I wish to use as a spare for our Match rifle comp here in Aust. The standard rifle I use is a .308 Savage with a 1:9 barrel. I use 208Amax and 94.5g of ADI 2209 that well and truly gets there. My F-class rifle the one using 155g I didn't want to play with as It shoots well already, I've Just never used it past 1000yrds and didn't have a load made up for it to do so. But Thanks to all the help and advice on here I am now very close to doing so, just a little more testing to go and I think it will come off pretty good.
Cheers
</div></div>
What is your experience with the HBC Palma rounds? I understand they may arrive here soon for us to try?</div></div>
Hiya,
I have been using them now for about 12 months and have always found them easy to work with as far as working up loads for them goes. Most of the guys here either use them .050 back or .010 into the lands. The load I use for F-class is 45.4g of varget(ADI 2208 in Aust) and that gets me a .75' group at 300yrds, at the moment but still trying to get the groups tighter. The best group from 300 I have seen is just over half an inch shot on a perfect day by a friend. The G1 BC is.462
G7 BC.229.
In the last 6 months they have really Taken of here with most of the shooters I know using them, #1 for the projectile and #2 for the cost as they are relatively cheap compared to Sierra and Berger projectiles while still producing good scores and winning matches. Well worth trying when they become available over there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308RUG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi Emouse
Our law makers here in Aust. must have taken a leaf from your book as that rule sounds very similar to our gun ownership laws.
The rifle I'm working the load up for which is my F-class rifle, I wish to use as a spare for our Match rifle comp here in Aust. The standard rifle I use is a .308 Savage with a 1:9 barrel. I use 208Amax and 94.5g of ADI 2209 that well and truly gets there. My F-class rifle the one using 155g I didn't want to play with as It shoots well already, I've Just never used it past 1000yrds and didn't have a load made up for it to do so. But Thanks to all the help and advice on here I am now very close to doing so, just a little more testing to go and I think it will come off pretty good.
Cheers
</div></div>
What is your experience with the HBC Palma rounds? I understand they may arrive here soon for us to try?</div></div>
Hiya,
I have been using them now for about 12 months and have always found them easy to work with as far as working up loads for them goes. Most of the guys here either use them .050 back or .010 into the lands. The load I use for F-class is 45.4g of varget(ADI 2208 in Aust) and that gets me a .75' group at 300yrds, at the moment but still trying to get the groups tighter. The best group from 300 I have seen is just over half an inch shot on a perfect day by a friend. The G1 BC is.462
G7 BC.229.
In the last 6 months they have really Taken of here with most of the shooters I know using them, #1 for the projectile and #2 for the cost as they are relatively cheap compared to Sierra and Berger projectiles while still producing good scores and winning matches. Well worth trying when they become available over there.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Interesting viewpoint (with which I agree TOTALLY!) expressed on 6mmBR:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
by German Salazar
One of the questions that new shooters, especially new long-range shooters, frequently ask is: "What rifle can I shoot in a Palma match?" That is usually followed by: "Do I have to shoot 155gr bullets?" In the ensuing discussion I usually find that they are somewhat confused by the rules for Palma shooting in the U.S. and therefor some clarification is needed. Hopefully, this article will help lift a bit of the fog that surrounds Palma shooting in the mind of the newer shooter. A basic distinction to keep in mind is that while Palma shooting is part of long-range shooting generally, when we speak of a long-range match we are typically referring to a single-distance 1000-yard match, not a Palma match, which is normally a three-yardage affair shot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards.
NOTE: As much as I love the history of shooting sports, this is not an article about the history of Palma shooting; for that I refer you to Hap Rocketto's excellent work A History of the Palma Match, which you can find on my RiflemansJournal.com website.
EDITOR's NOTE: This article applies to the vast majority of NRA Palma matches held in the USA. In other countries, different (and much more restrictive) rules govern Fullbore rifle specs and ammunition. In addition, there are a few matches in the USA, such as the Spirit of America match, which apply international "Fullbore" rules. However, even in those matches, NRA-compliant Palma rifles that don't satisfy the "Fullbore" rifle rules can usually shoot in a different class. So, at least within U.S. borders, American Palma shooters can effectively ignore the international "Fullbore" rules, and shoot any .223 Rem or .308 Win iron-sighted rifles they choose, with any bullet weight. For more information on International Fullbore standards, CLICK THIS LINK.
The Palma Rifle -- What Is Allowed in the USA
The NRA High Power Rifle Rules set forth the requirements for rifles to be used in a Palma match or the Palma Rifle category of a long-range match. The pertinent rule, Rule 3.3.1 reads as follows:
3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle
(a) a rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.
(b) any service rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.
That's it, the entire rifle rule, the whole enchilada. The rule is notable for what is left unspecified: bullet weight, rifle weight, trigger pull weight. All of these things are unrestricted. As long as you're shooting a rifle with metallic sights chambered in .308 or .223, you comply with the Palma Rifle rules, in the U.S.A. at least.
You might think that subsection (b) is redundant since a rifle that meets the specifications of (b) also meets the specifications of (a). However, if the match is large enough, the National Championship for example, the match sponsor might provide a separate award for category (b). A service rifle under 3.3.1(b) must, of course, meet all the other requirements for a service rifle set forth in NRA Highpower Rule 3.1.
Common Questions
Can you use a Tubegun? Yes.
Can you shoot 190gr bullets? Yes.
Can you shoot 240gr bullets? Yes.
Can you shoot 90gr bullets in a .223? Yes.
Can you use a 4 oz. trigger? Yes.
Can the rifle weigh 15 lb.? Yes.
Can it weigh 20 lb.? Yes, Arnold
Can you have a lens in the sight? Yes, but only in the front or rear, not both.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Can you use a .30-06? No, the .30-06 was dropped from the Palma Rifle rule in the late 1980's by someone with no sense of history and no common sense. How are we going to get Garand and Springfield match shooters interested in Palma shooting if we tell them their cartridge isn't allowed? The .30-06 is the most-used cartridge in the history of U.S. competitive shooting, by the way. Garand and Springfield shooters are today's entry-level competitors and we need them! Are you listening, NRA? </span> </div></div>
Interesting viewpoint (with which I agree TOTALLY!) expressed on 6mmBR:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
by German Salazar
One of the questions that new shooters, especially new long-range shooters, frequently ask is: "What rifle can I shoot in a Palma match?" That is usually followed by: "Do I have to shoot 155gr bullets?" In the ensuing discussion I usually find that they are somewhat confused by the rules for Palma shooting in the U.S. and therefor some clarification is needed. Hopefully, this article will help lift a bit of the fog that surrounds Palma shooting in the mind of the newer shooter. A basic distinction to keep in mind is that while Palma shooting is part of long-range shooting generally, when we speak of a long-range match we are typically referring to a single-distance 1000-yard match, not a Palma match, which is normally a three-yardage affair shot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards.
NOTE: As much as I love the history of shooting sports, this is not an article about the history of Palma shooting; for that I refer you to Hap Rocketto's excellent work A History of the Palma Match, which you can find on my RiflemansJournal.com website.
EDITOR's NOTE: This article applies to the vast majority of NRA Palma matches held in the USA. In other countries, different (and much more restrictive) rules govern Fullbore rifle specs and ammunition. In addition, there are a few matches in the USA, such as the Spirit of America match, which apply international "Fullbore" rules. However, even in those matches, NRA-compliant Palma rifles that don't satisfy the "Fullbore" rifle rules can usually shoot in a different class. So, at least within U.S. borders, American Palma shooters can effectively ignore the international "Fullbore" rules, and shoot any .223 Rem or .308 Win iron-sighted rifles they choose, with any bullet weight. For more information on International Fullbore standards, CLICK THIS LINK.
The Palma Rifle -- What Is Allowed in the USA
The NRA High Power Rifle Rules set forth the requirements for rifles to be used in a Palma match or the Palma Rifle category of a long-range match. The pertinent rule, Rule 3.3.1 reads as follows:
3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle
(a) a rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.
(b) any service rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.
That's it, the entire rifle rule, the whole enchilada. The rule is notable for what is left unspecified: bullet weight, rifle weight, trigger pull weight. All of these things are unrestricted. As long as you're shooting a rifle with metallic sights chambered in .308 or .223, you comply with the Palma Rifle rules, in the U.S.A. at least.
You might think that subsection (b) is redundant since a rifle that meets the specifications of (b) also meets the specifications of (a). However, if the match is large enough, the National Championship for example, the match sponsor might provide a separate award for category (b). A service rifle under 3.3.1(b) must, of course, meet all the other requirements for a service rifle set forth in NRA Highpower Rule 3.1.
Common Questions
Can you use a Tubegun? Yes.
Can you shoot 190gr bullets? Yes.
Can you shoot 240gr bullets? Yes.
Can you shoot 90gr bullets in a .223? Yes.
Can you use a 4 oz. trigger? Yes.
Can the rifle weigh 15 lb.? Yes.
Can it weigh 20 lb.? Yes, Arnold
Can you have a lens in the sight? Yes, but only in the front or rear, not both.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Can you use a .30-06? No, the .30-06 was dropped from the Palma Rifle rule in the late 1980's by someone with no sense of history and no common sense. How are we going to get Garand and Springfield match shooters interested in Palma shooting if we tell them their cartridge isn't allowed? The .30-06 is the most-used cartridge in the history of U.S. competitive shooting, by the way. Garand and Springfield shooters are today's entry-level competitors and we need them! Are you listening, NRA? </span> </div></div>
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Here in Aust we have 4 main types of large rifle comps.
T/R, Plain target rifle. Generally shot from 300 to 900yrds. Restricted to .308 155g and the .223 projectile and I think they have to use either 80 or 85g pills.
the powder is also restricted to a few types.
Shooters use a sling and jacket and iron sights only.
Shot in the prone position.
F-class has two variants F open and F standard.
F open allows shooters to use different calibres and is shot on ranges from 300 to 1200yrds with a rifle weight restriction. Any powder can be used also.
Rifles are fitted with telescopic sights.
F-class standard is limited to .308 and .223 as with T/R with, the same restrictions on bullet weight, powder and also shot on ranges from 300 to 1000yrds. Telescopic sights are used as with F open and both classes use a front rest/bi pod and rear bag.
The last is Match Rifle where shooters can use any bullet weight and any powder but are limited to .308 projectiles. The firing position can be prone or supine( watch ya toes) and is shot with a sling and jacket. No front rest or rear bag however you may use a rest for your forehand as long as no part of the rifle is touching it. The ranges are shot from 1000 to 1200yrds,telescopic or iron sights can be used.
Here in Aust we have 4 main types of large rifle comps.
T/R, Plain target rifle. Generally shot from 300 to 900yrds. Restricted to .308 155g and the .223 projectile and I think they have to use either 80 or 85g pills.
the powder is also restricted to a few types.
Shooters use a sling and jacket and iron sights only.
Shot in the prone position.
F-class has two variants F open and F standard.
F open allows shooters to use different calibres and is shot on ranges from 300 to 1200yrds with a rifle weight restriction. Any powder can be used also.
Rifles are fitted with telescopic sights.
F-class standard is limited to .308 and .223 as with T/R with, the same restrictions on bullet weight, powder and also shot on ranges from 300 to 1000yrds. Telescopic sights are used as with F open and both classes use a front rest/bi pod and rear bag.
The last is Match Rifle where shooters can use any bullet weight and any powder but are limited to .308 projectiles. The firing position can be prone or supine( watch ya toes) and is shot with a sling and jacket. No front rest or rear bag however you may use a rest for your forehand as long as no part of the rifle is touching it. The ranges are shot from 1000 to 1200yrds,telescopic or iron sights can be used.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308! </div></div>
My experiences, wrote this in another thread months ago:
Tried them (155 Scenars) 1400m/1530yds. MV 2788.
Worked surprisingly well, considering the wind was pretty nasty.
In any case, bullet seemed to be still stable and predictable.
Wind was throwing impacts left and right, and big ES I had little up and down, but I was damn close to torso-size target all time during 15-shot or so string. Target was against sand, I was able to spot impacts very well.
Rifle 22" Oberland OA-10. Shoots 0.65MOA ave. at 100meters, 5-shot strings.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
Just quick post to touch on 155 Scenar performance at EXTREME range. I was training a customer a while back, he was shooting a 155 at about 2900+ I believe. Rifle was TRG.308 win.
After taking him from 100 to 1200 yards on 12"x12" plates I wanted to see how his set up would do at ONE MILE. He was totally amazed he even got out to 1200 yards. After seeing how flat it was shooting and accurate, I knew we could do it. I think he had about 93 MOA??? to one mile but I'm not sure. Anyway his first shot was a little low. After adjusting he was shooting about a 20" group around the 12"x12" steel plate at ONE MILE. He even hit it a couple times and the accuracy was there indeed. Our elevation here is about 1000' where we were shooting from. So, with the right load and twist rate you can go waaayyy out there with the 155.
Hope this motivates some of you to try and shoot further and have more fun with your .308! </div></div>
My experiences, wrote this in another thread months ago:
Tried them (155 Scenars) 1400m/1530yds. MV 2788.
Worked surprisingly well, considering the wind was pretty nasty.
In any case, bullet seemed to be still stable and predictable.
Wind was throwing impacts left and right, and big ES I had little up and down, but I was damn close to torso-size target all time during 15-shot or so string. Target was against sand, I was able to spot impacts very well.
Rifle 22" Oberland OA-10. Shoots 0.65MOA ave. at 100meters, 5-shot strings.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
I shoot the 155 lapuas in a 308 30" barrel. I'am getting 3050 with these. The barrel is a 13 twist barrel. At 1000 yards last year in a match my come ups was 27.25 moas. I would think around the 1200 to 1300 yards would be the max or close.
I shoot the 155 lapuas in a 308 30" barrel. I'am getting 3050 with these. The barrel is a 13 twist barrel. At 1000 yards last year in a match my come ups was 27.25 moas. I would think around the 1200 to 1300 yards would be the max or close.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
We shoot M118LR 175gr out to 1600meters out of 18" OBRs. The muzzle velocity is appx 2550. Elevation is predictable but wind plays hell at that range.
We regularly shoot our M24s and OBRs out past 1200 meters with 1st round hits.
I'm still learning alot and am relativly new to long distance shooting. I strive everyday to learn something about sniping. I think we are pushing our M118LR to the extreme because that is all we have to shoot. Because that is what we shoot overseas that is what we train on.
Sorry I can't give you much reloading advice, but because we are getting the results we are with army ammo, it leads me to believe that shooting into the trans-sonic or sub-sonic realm is more a question of good basics and ballistic predictability.
We shoot M118LR 175gr out to 1600meters out of 18" OBRs. The muzzle velocity is appx 2550. Elevation is predictable but wind plays hell at that range.
We regularly shoot our M24s and OBRs out past 1200 meters with 1st round hits.
I'm still learning alot and am relativly new to long distance shooting. I strive everyday to learn something about sniping. I think we are pushing our M118LR to the extreme because that is all we have to shoot. Because that is what we shoot overseas that is what we train on.
Sorry I can't give you much reloading advice, but because we are getting the results we are with army ammo, it leads me to believe that shooting into the trans-sonic or sub-sonic realm is more a question of good basics and ballistic predictability.
Re: 155g to 1200yards
Just because a thing is do-able doesn't make it wise.
Any combination of ammo and rifle that will spit a 155gr/.308 bullet accurately to 1200yd is going to be a major throat burner. Period.
So, once you've found the absolute limits of ballistic performance, what does it buy you?
Greg
Just because a thing is do-able doesn't make it wise.
Any combination of ammo and rifle that will spit a 155gr/.308 bullet accurately to 1200yd is going to be a major throat burner. Period.
So, once you've found the absolute limits of ballistic performance, what does it buy you?
Greg
