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168gr SMK at 1000 yards

LoneWolfUSMC

LoneWolfUSMC

Lt. Colonel
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 9, 2008
7,377
17
Southern Indiana
www.8541tactical.com
Just something for the guys who are always asking about 168gr Gold Medal Match or equivalent for 1000 yard shooting.

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Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Very good. I do think it would be interesting to have a ballistician determine a mathematical measure of how well a bullet transcends. We talk about bullet A doing it better than bullet B but we never really know what that means and how large a difference there really is. I couldn't tell you if it is 5% or 40% difference in their ability to navigate the transonic barrier. I recognise it probably isn't an easy result to determine but it would help move us on beyond the current G based approach.

All well outside my limited abilities but hopefully someone who knows more than i can help shed some light on whether we will ever see such a measure.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

2h7nf6f.jpg


you KNOW this is what is does.....
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tommyc279</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6.5 ballistic keep sounding better and better. </div></div>

Now you know why I shoot .243
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

another good information video - Thanks

<---subscriber
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Good video, but I really like the chart! Good one Chiller! LMAO CKruse
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Last 1000 yd match I shot at Camp Pendleton (elevation ~420 ft), a first-time F-Class shooter was doing his sighters for the 1st match while I was in the pits. First shot...I heard a "snap", then a bunch of twigs and pebbles come flying over the berm. I had the radio, so I called the line and told them he was low and hitting the berm. This continued for several more shots, until he finally got one on paper. It wasn't too bad a shot, in the 9-ring at ~11:00. However, when I pulled the target down, I could see a perfect sideways silhouette of the projectile in the target. I radioed back that he was keyholing and unfortunately, he was done for the rest of the match. I remarked to the guy next to me in the pits, "I'll bet he's using SMK168s". Sure enough, that turned out to be the case. I felt bad for the guy in his first match and all, because he simply didn't know about that load. To his credit, he stayed and pulled targets and scored for the rest of the match. My recollection is that he had a 26" barrel, it was just that his FGMM 168s weren't up to job at 1000 yd. He was going to get some 175s, and come back to the next match, where I'm sure he will be much happier with his results.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you KNOW this is what is does.....</div></div>

Lmao that was good.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Hmm. mine haven't showed noticeable signs of keyholing at 1,000 yards @ 2,500 feet ASL.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

In two different Rifles Only courses I witnessed how elevation makes or breaks the 168 SMK. In Texas (with DA of -2000 to -500 feet), the 168 SMK would make it to 900 yards with good accuracy, but became extremely erratic at 1000 yards. Same with the 168 AMax. The shooters with these rounds were hitting 2 MOA targets regularly at 900 yards, but had uncallable misses in all directions around a 2 MOA gong at 1000 yards in the same wind conditions.

In Colorado (with DAs of 6400 to 7400 feet), FGMM 168 worked just fine in my GAP Crusader (23" barrel) out to 1,000 yards. In fact, I saw no differences in accuracy from 100 yards to 1000 yards between FGMM 168 and FGMM 175 -- only differences in scope elevation requirements for given target distances.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Dang it, John.

It is Gold MEDAL Match.
As in, "I won a Gold Medal at the 300 yard international target competition"
whistle.gif
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

When they were issued M852, which was authorized sometime in the 1990's
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

all the M852 I ever saw... in the 90s... was marked "not for combat use"... it was issued as a match round... M118SB and M118LR were issued for "combat", to snipers, match shooters aren't always "snipers"...
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

My personal experience, I won't shoot the 168's past 800 yards at normal 308 velocity. It gets wild.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all the M852 I ever saw... in the 90s... was marked "not for combat use"... it was issued as a match round... M118SB and M118LR were issued for "combat", to snipers, match shooters aren't always "snipers"...
</div></div>

I do not doubt that at all.
When you consider that ammo is purchased in huge lots and it damn near take an act of congress just to change the cardboard box on any new lots purchased, it is not surprising.

That being said, I'm sure someone was probably using it. Besides, they would tend to expend all of the old lots first unless reclassified as unserviceable or restricted to training.
1990 memo:
http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">all the M852 I ever saw... in the 90s... was marked "not for combat use"... it was issued as a match round... M118SB and M118LR were issued for "combat", to snipers, match shooters aren't always "snipers"...
</div></div>

I do not doubt that at all.
When you consider that ammo is purchased in huge lots and it damn near take an act of congress just to change the cardboard box on any new lots purchased, it is not surprising.

That being said, I'm sure someone was probably using it. Besides, they would tend to expend all of the old lots first unless reclassified as unserviceable or restricted to training.
1990 memo:
http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html</div></div>

I understand the legalities.. but I never saw it issued to a line unit
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dang it, John.

It is Gold MEDAL Match.
As in, "I won a Gold Medal at the 300 yard international target competition"
whistle.gif

</div></div>

You know, I knew that...the memo just didn't make it to my conscious brain. I even had a box of it sitting here on the desk while I was typing. 'Round these parts we pronounce Mettle and Medal the same anyhow.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when did "Military Snipers" ever use the FGMM 168s... or any 168SMK load.. officially anyway? </div></div>

IIRC M852 was pretty much all I was issued when I went through school. It was 90% of our training ammo as well.

In fact, we were told that substituting FGMM for M852 on a qual was an Integrity Violation and would get you booted from school.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Yes, a 308 with about any barrel length will launch a 168 sufficient to travel 1000 yards or more.

Having been in the pits multiple times with these bullets flying overhead at a grand, at altitudes of 5000 to 6000 feet ASL, I can tell you without a doubt that they won't consistently hold the 6x6' target frame used on KD ranges.

Those that argue otherwise are, well, flat wrong and inexperienced.

Once was with an M14 shooter that knowingly shot M852 in an effort to see if it would work. The other was shooting a 30" Palma rifle, and unknowingly, grabbed the wrong ammo when we left for a match. He grabbed his M852 clone ammo for his M14 in error rather than his Palma ammo, a 2156 SMK traveling at 3050 FPS. He was OK at 800, other than his zero was off, all over the place at 900, and on/off paper at 1000....

It was not until he got home that he discovered he grabbed the wrong boxes.

So, whether one knows they are shooting a 168 or not, it makes no difference. They suck beyond 800 if you actually are interested in connecting consistently with a modest size target.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

His reference was to the SMK.

Some bullets tend to remain more stable than others when going transonic...Transonic is defined as Mach 1.2-0.8.

When the bullet enters this velocity zone the center of pressure of the bullet shifts forward- and can cause instability and tumbling. It's not a function of weight, it's bullet design.

I guess some bullets could be unstable when going transonic, but still fly well in a subsonic load (?).

That's if I got my external ballistics right...
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

I spotted for a guy at a PR1 type class, he was shooting 168 FGM out of a 22" rifle and vapor trail disappeared along with accuracy between 700-800 yards.

I gave him 5 of my 175 SMK handloads and he was dead on to 800+ with visible vapor trails.

That was the day I became a believer in high ballistic coefficient.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Last Monday while we were doing our Monday evening leaguesquadded practice, there was a new shooter there with a Remmy 5R, with Hornady 168 match. It was a calm day for wind (worth 1/4 moa with my 223 and Berger 90's)
Well we decided that we would let hime shoot a few but not many. I told him to come up 32 moa from his 200 yard zero. Well his first shot the trace was good and riht at the target, but it hit the top of the berm. Got him on paper and the load lucky to hold moa on the target in these light conditions. Gene, the guy that was pulling his target, when he came out of the pits, presented the new shooter is first shot bullet. When it hit the berm, it bounced into the target and stuck in the cardboard and stayed there. Gene plucked the bullet out and brought it back to the fellow whom shot the bullet.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That the 168gr SMK or all 168s in general? </div></div>
I'm going from memory here, so someone step in if I mess things up on the technical points.

The 168 SMK has a boat tail design that is too steep to play nice with transonic speeds. I believe it's about 13 degrees. The 168 AMax bullet is around the same. Again, I've seen both of these bullets become wildly erratic beyond 900 yards at density altitudes of sea level to minus 2000 feet in factory FGMM and Hornady loads from quality barrels of 24 inches or less.

I believe the 175 SMK and 155 Scenar (and maybe some VLD Berger) bullets have boat tails with a much less steep angles -- maybe in the 8 or 9 degree range -- which seem to allow them to pass through transonic speeds with much less instability.

I have a decent supply of FGMM 168 which I feared might go to waste, given how well my GAP Crusader performs with FGMM 175 and Corbon 155 Scenar rounds. So when Rifles Only came to Colorado this summer for a precision rifle course, I brought both FGMM 168 and FGMM 175 to determine if the 168's would make it to 1,000 yards in my guestimated 7,000 to 8,000 foot density altitudes.

According to chrono and JBM ballistics tables, with JBM's scope elevation requirements backed up by actual target impacts, my Crusader's MV of 2710 fps results in 1,000 yard velocity of mach 1.212 at 7500 feet DA. Under the RO team's guidance, under calm conditions, I was able to shoot sub-MOA groups at 1,000 yards with FGMM 168, FGMM 175, and Corbon 155 Scenar. And FWIW, both another student and one of the RO instructors took turns on my rifle with FGMM 168, with both of them producing sub-MOA groups at 1,000 yards.

Since we were shooting steel, there was no way to determine whether or not the 168 SMK bullets were impacting nose first. But they were impacting the steel consistently and accurately.

Honestly, I don't think any of us expected FGMM 168 to perform so well. We all realized that under the right conditions (i.e. thin air) the 168 SMK bullet works to some pretty respectable distances.

Realistically, I will probably never buy any SMK 168 or AMax 168 bullets/ammo again. I would rather use a bullet (SMK 175, Scenar 155) that works in any DA I expect to experience and still make it to 1,000 yards.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

The SIE 30 cal 168 gr bullet was designed for 300 Meter shooting. It will do right decent at 600 yards, but the original intention was for this bullet was not to be shot pass 300 meters.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ropegun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That the 168gr SMK or all 168s in general? </div></div>
I'm going from memory here, so someone step in if I mess things up on the technical points.

The 168 SMK has a boat tail design that is too steep to play nice with transonic speeds. I believe it's about 13 degrees. The 168 AMax bullet is around the same. Again, I've seen both of these bullets become wildly erratic beyond 900 yards at density altitudes of sea level to minus 2000 feet in factory FGMM and Hornady loads from quality barrels of 24 inches or less.

</div></div>

That's correct i was just wondering if he was just talking about the SMK and Nosler CC or all 168s. The 168gr Hybrids for instance don't have a problem at 1000yds. Still i shoot 175s but i do have some hybrids loaded up for groups. With a G1 of .519 i couldn't resist giving them a try.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

G1 factors are for Flatbased bullets, use the G7 factors for Boattail bullets. If you use the JBM website, use the bullet selection that has (Litz) out beside it, this will have the G7 factor already included.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

I realize that just couldn't remember the G7, which is .266 higher than the 175gr BT LRs i run and the SMKs. Regardless the hybrid is higher than most 175s, which is impressive.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

A little extra info here that may help to fill in a few blanks. The M852 load originally came about as a result of military shooters using "Mexican Match" ammo in their M14s for across the course competition(200, 300 and 600 yards). The practice was to pull the 173 grain FMJ bullets from issue M118 Match ammo, and simply replace it with the 168 SMK. We used to have "reloading parties" detailed to do this, and the resulting ammo was what we used in competition. The term came about when the military shooters used this in the Pan Am games held in Mexico City back in the mid 1960s. The name stuck, and it had been called Mexican Match ever since. This simple substitution (the 168 HPBT for the 173 FMJ)decreased group sizes something on the order of 30% or more, with no other changes. Major accuracy improvement there. In one of those rare displays of common sense, when Lake City got wind of shooters doing this, there was a proposal to simply make the ammo as the "customers" wished; loaded with a 168 SMK from the outset. That's how the M852 was born. Originally designated as a Match round, and clearly marked as "Not for Combat Use", the cases were further marked with a knurl around the head of the case, just in front of the extractor groove. Lousy place to put it, too, since it made reloading these cases highly suspect. The M118 Match ammo was redesignated as M118 Special Ball, and was virtually identical to the original M118 round, but in a different, more plain white box. Using the same 173 grain FMJ, this was ther round intended for combat use. In the very late '80s or early '90s, Col Hays Parks, then Chief of International Law with JAG issued a ruling that, based on work done by Col Marty Fackler, MD (who was then chief of the Army's Wound Ballistics Lab at Letterman)the HPBT (OTM) Match Bullets performed no differently (in terminal performance, upon impact)than did the FMJs, and were therefore not a violation of the Hague Accords. In other words, they were suitable for use in combat. The problem was that the 168 grain/M852 load didn't perform well at 1,000 yards, and the M118 Ball round did. The problem with these was the fact that they weren't as accurate as the HPBT Match bullets. There was a quick redevelpoment for Lake City, which resulted in the current 175 grain HPBT Match bullet. This delivered the accuracy of the 168, while giving the long-range ballistics of the 173 grain FMJ; the best of both worlds. The result was redesignated as the M118LR (LR standing for "Long Range")that continues to serve today. Perfectly legal for use in warfare, and as accurate as the M852, it replaced both the M118SB AND the M852, both of which have now been out of production for many years.

Hope this helps clear up any confusion here, in what is a fairly confusing history.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SIE107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The SIE 30 cal 168 gr bullet was designed for 300 Meter shooting. It will do right decent at 600 yards, but the original intention was for this bullet was not to be shot pass 300 meters. </div></div>

It may (or may not) have been, but Lones Wigger set the world record for 3P 300 meter in the mid-60s shooting 200 gr SMKs on top of a 30-06 case. The rifle and the ammo is in the trophy case at the National Training Center USA Shooting building.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim B in CO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Newbie question: How well do the 190 grain SMKs work in .308 at 800+ yards? </div></div>

Jim B,

the 190 will work quite well, and can be kept supersonic with a number of different powders. This was another of the "go to" bullets for this type of shooting and has a very proven track record.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

[/quote]It may (or may not) have been, but Lones Wigger set the world record for 3P 300 meter in the mid-60s shooting 200 gr SMKs on top of a 30-06 case. The rifle and the ammo is in the trophy case at the National Training Center USA Shooting building.[/quote]

Yes, the 168 was originally designed as a 300 meter bullet, and was used very successfully for that application in a great many matches around the world. As for Wigger's use of the 200 grain MKs, that wasn't the same SMK you see today; it was an FMJ. Before the introduction of the 168, as I recall, the rest of the MatchKing line was of Full Metal Jacket design. They were a royal pain to make, had much higher reject rates and were much harder to get to shoot than the HPBT design that eventually replaced them. Still see them around occassionally, but thye're more collector's items that shooters today.
 
Re: 168gr SMK at 1000 yards

Lol, I about fell off my chair when I saw the invisible 800 yard barrier.
 
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