.17 or .20 thoughts for a flat shooting critter killer

[Sid Post]

I have considered the small caliber options off and on for a long time but, never had a real need or enough desire to put my money down on one so, no 20TAC or similar rifles are hiding in my gun safe.

I am wanting something that won't fly forever if it hits a tree branch or blows through a coyote for example so, I am having reservations about using longer range heavier caliber options. I was initially thinking about the 17 Remington/Fireball/Hornet and the 17WSM (can't warm up to the Savage B.Mag) but ammo availability seems to be an issue (yes I reload but access to factory ammo at $1.00~$1.50 a round is wanted). The 204Ruger seems to be the main darling of the gun media right now and it seems to fit the same sub .22 caliber 30~45gr role the 20TAC and other calibers did previously.

What factory or light custom bolt action rifle would be suggested with which flat shooting caliber to take coyotes and feral hogs (assuming good shot placement and appropriate bullet) at ranges inside 300 yards with a nominal rifle cost of $1000~$1500? I am tempted by the Browning X-Bolt options in 204Ruger and want something reasonable to walk around with so rifle weight needs to stay under 9 pounds without optics though something in the 7 pound range would be nice.

What would you suggest? What do you have experience with? Or should I load varmint bullets in a Remington 700 PSS 1-12" .223 rifle and use the rifle money as a down payment on a NVG scope?

 

[BurnOut]

Well, for my own similar rifle, I have chosen to go with .204 Ruger in a custom barreled Tikka T3. I'll tell you, though, that I am thinking of rebarreling my .223 Howa mini action to a 20 caliber wildcat based on the 22 Nosler case (I am envisioning essentially the .20 Practical concept applied to the 22 Nosler case); I think that'd be a screamer of a round that would shoot flat and hit hard, but dump all of its energy into whatever it hits first.

 

[Supersubes]

I'll start off by saying I love my 20 practical(20-223). The 20 tac is identical ballistically. With your factory rifle/ammo requirement though, that pretty much boxes you in to a .204. Thats not bad, its the most mainstream .20, and one of the fastest. I use mine for prairie digs and squirrels. I dont think id use it on a pig though. The bullets are very lightly constructed.

That .223 will work just fine for you imo. If you need to tinker, you could consider rebarreling the .223 to any .20 you want.

Id stay away from the .17's. I like mine quite a lot, but the factory brass sucks, and in the end, the same case in .20 would outperform in in all areas. I'm in the process of converting my .17 fireball to a 20-221 fireball, using .221fireball lapua brass.

 

[blackblue]

17-204 pushing the 30's

 

[Sendit6.5]

For predators, and certainly hogs, I'd stay away from any .17 caliber. Part of my living comes from my work in predator control and I've tried .17hmr and .17 Hornet and while they're terrific for saving bobcat hides ($$) and fox, they just don't pack enough punch for coyotes. Sure, head shots will work; but the reality is, most
coyotes are shot in the body and .17 just isn't effective- lower recovery rate and LOTS of followup shots needed. That's a waste, all the way around. Pigs, forget about it. Unless you earhole one, you're not going to recover your animal. Not enough penetration. All the energy is expended way too shallow.

.204 is a terrific cartridge for coyotes. It's flat shooting and it has that little extra 'oomph" to be deadly on Coyotes and smaller. It's BETTER on hogs than .17 but it's still far from ideal if you shoot a hog over 100lbs. If the placement is off at all, it's a lost hog. If you're going to go small, the .204 is my choice. Most days at work on the ranch, I have a CZ 527 in .204 riding by my right leg. It's a great little rifle and shoots .75moa (or less) with Hornady 32gr. I don't have a scale to weigh it but with a Vortex Viper 3-15-44 HST on it, I'll bet it doesn't weigh 6 pounds. I Paid $300 (sans scope) for the rifle used. I've considered building a .204 upper or even building a custom but this little rifle is dynamite to 250yds (I rarely get to shoot predators any further) so there's just no justification for me to do it. For what you're looking for, I'd definitely go with a .204.

You might also consider a 22 Nosler, if you can find one in your price range. At those velocities a 55gr ballistic tip bullet is going to explode on contact with just about anything; and, if you handload, the 40gr will really blow up. This is going to be my next small caliber rifle build. I'm going to rebarrel one of my ARs here shortly to test out. It's not going to be fur friendly (I don't think) on bobcat or smaller but I think it'll be a terrific round for predators to hogs; but, personally, I prefer 55gr-69gr for the extra penetration on hogs and coyotes.

Whether to run with what you've got or buy a new rifle- that's hard to say. Lol! I like additional rifles; but I'm hoarder. Lol! One option, if you're looking for a change, rebarrel your 700 in .223 AI or .22 Nosler. Just a thought.

I wouldn't bother with a NV scope unless you're not planning to scan. Scanning (i.e. for predators) with a rifle mounted device is a serious PITA!! Pure misery. In my experience, a handheld device is much more useful. Scan comfortably until you find a target and, then, light it up with a spotlight or rifle mounted light. AFTER you have a scanning device, THEN a scope makes sense. I'd suggest a Thermal scanner. They are INCREDIBLY useful - way more than NV - because you can literally see animals back in the brush, because of the heat signature. Watch them in the scanner until they're in position to shoot and then light 'em up. If you're only planning to shoot hogs on a feeder at night, then a NV scope is a good choice. If you're planning on any other type of hunting, not so much.


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[Sid Post]

For predators, and certainly hogs, I'd stay away from any .17 caliber. Part of my living comes from my work in predator control and I've tried .17hmr and .17 Hornet and while they're terrific for saving bobcat hides ($$) and fox, they just don't pack enough punch for coyotes. Sure, head shots will work; but the reality is, most
coyotes are shot in the body and .17 just isn't effective- lower recovery rate and LOTS of followup shots needed. That's a waste, all the way around. Pigs, forget about it. Unless you earhole one, you're not going to recover your animal. Not enough penetration. All the energy is expended way too shallow.

First, I'm not into saving hides or meat. I kill more hogs in bad week then I will eat in a year plus, pork is so cheap around here it isn't worth the effort to skin it out either. While my friend likes to skin Coyotes, I haven't seen or felt the need to skin one yet. Ear hole shots on swine are a nice thought but, I won't go out with less than a 6.8SPC personally if hog eradication is the goal. For me, Coyotes and a 5.56 while deadly is less than a humane kill for me generally. My friend insists on MK-262 in his target AR-15 and after putting one round from the Coyote's rear hip through to off-side front shoulder and watching him hop, jump, bounce, etc. until he expired was enough to put it away for good for me. Some varmint rounds would probably have worked a lot better Coyotes but, those MK-262's on coyotes and hogs were unimpressive.

.204 is a terrific cartridge for coyotes. It's flat shooting and it has that little extra 'oomph" to be deadly on Coyotes and smaller. It's BETTER on hogs than .17 but it's still far from ideal if you shoot a hog over 100lbs. If the placement is off at all, it's a lost hog. If you're going to go small, the .204 is my choice. Most days at work on the ranch, I have a CZ 527 in .204 riding by my right leg. It's a great little rifle and shoots .75moa (or less) with Hornady 32gr. I don't have a scale to weigh it but with a Vortex Viper 3-15-44 HST on it, I'll bet it doesn't weigh 6 pounds. I Paid $300 (sans scope) for the rifle used. I've considered building a .204 upper or even building a custom but this little rifle is dynamite to 250yds (I rarely get to shoot predators any further) so there's just no justification for me to do it. For what you're looking for, I'd definitely go with a .204.

If I run across a CZ in that price range I will be all over it in almost any caliber as I really like them alot! I don't foresee using anything smaller than my 6.8SPC on feral hogs because I want them dead right then. Hobbling one with a 5.56 or .204R will make them easy for the Coyotes to catch but, still I'd rather use them to bait chicken/duck/goose killing Coyotes into gun range.

You might also consider a 22 Nosler, if you can find one in your price range. At those velocities a 55gr ballistic tip bullet is going to explode on contact with just about anything; and, if you handload, the 40gr will really blow up. This is going to be my next small caliber rifle build. I'm going to rebarrel one of my ARs here shortly to test out. It's not going to be fur friendly (I don't think) on bobcat or smaller but I think it'll be a terrific round for predators to hogs; but, personally, I prefer 55gr-69gr for the extra penetration on hogs and coyotes.

22 Nosler! That might be a winner. Hmm, I wonder if they are reasonably priced in an AR-15 upper.

Whether to run with what you've got or buy a new rifle- that's hard to say. Lol! I like additional rifles; but I'm hoarder. Lol! One option, if you're looking for a change, rebarrel your 700 in .223 AI or .22 Nosler. Just a thought.

Rebarreling my 700PSS would cost about what a NIB CZ 527 would.

I wouldn't bother with a NV scope unless you're not planning to scan. Scanning (i.e. for predators) with a rifle mounted device is a serious PITA!! Pure misery. In my experience, a handheld device is much more useful. Scan comfortably until you find a target and, then, light it up with a spotlight or rifle mounted light. AFTER you have a scanning device, THEN a scope makes sense. I'd suggest a Thermal scanner. They are INCREDIBLY useful - way more than NV - because you can literally see animals back in the brush, because of the heat signature. Watch them in the scanner until they're in position to shoot and then light 'em up. If you're only planning to shoot hogs on a feeder at night, then a NV scope is a good choice. If you're planning on any other type of hunting, not so much.

I'm running a FLIR Systems thermal now. It takes a nice handy rifle and turns it into an ungainly pig that is a real pain to lug around. Resolution is not the best but adequate if you watch for animal behavior though I still won't shoot it around cattle; fawns and piglets in the grass are a tricky discrimination at a 100 yards. My friend has PVS-7B 3rd gen goggles but, I don't like them though they work well for him (I wear glasses he doesn't). I like the idea of PVS-14's but, not the recoil ratings. I have used a PVS-4 2nd gen briefly and really liked it but, a more close-to-intermediate range 3rd gen white NVG scope is what I would like unless I win the lottery and move up to an IR Defense/Trijicon Thermal.

 

[missed]

I have been wanting a 17WSM. Been thinking hard about a Volquartson. But like said above, the Nosler 22 has crossed my mind.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I don't think there is any practical reason to venture into the sub-calibers for what you want. The .223 has the best selection of bullets and loaded ammunition. The 53grn. V-Max is good on coyotes to four hundred yards and the forty is great for squirrels and chucks. Both are highly frangible.

I shoot varmints with a couple of other old guys and they have virtually every caliber discussed mostly on CZ 527 actions. I shoot a 527 Kevlar stocked Varmint in .223 as well as a couple of other .223s and have never been at a disadvantage. The Kevlar varmints weigh about 7.5# bare and are near a near perfect combo.of portability/shootability for a walking varminter. I don't think the Kevlar Varminter is still available but they show up on the used market. The walnut stocked models have worked well for the other guys.

 

[Petrov]

Inside 300 yards ? Stick with 223 and save your money.

With that being said I am having a 20vartarg made on CZ527. But I had shoulder surgery and want easy to shoot rifle at 100 yards to practice fundamentals.

 

[steve123]

I have a CZ527 too, in 17R, with an extremely slim tapered custom barrel at 17.5". 30 grain Golds/.27BC at 3500 fps. .27 G1 is about the same BC as 55gr 22 cal FMJ's. Most yotes are DRT, though longest so far has only been 170Y. In a longer barrel you could add 200-250 fps to my velocity. The cool thing is watching the bullet strike with 17's because the recoil and muzzle flip is so small. The problem with high velocity 17's is the barrel needs to be cleaned more often.

Had a 204, other than being really loud I couldn't fault it. I just like 17 out to 300Y is all.

 

[Sendit6.5]

22 Nosler! That might be a winner. Hmm, I wonder if they are reasonably priced in an AR-15 upper.

Just build one. Then you can build it how you want inside the budget you want. The AR Stoner made 22 Nosler barrels on RainierArms.com are getting GREAT reviews for their accuracy. They're easy to build.




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[Sid Post]

After reading up some more on the various options, I was tempted by the $400 MidwayUSA Stoner upper in 22 Nosler but, I read a lot of bad reports on the barrels themselves so ruled that out. The 22 Nosler doesn't really appeal to me. I could always go with a 6.8-22 and skip the Nosler brass though I wouldn't have access to factory ammo.

Muzzle blast reports on the 204Ruger have me rethinking that one. I really don't want to wake the neighbors up on the weekend morning and evening. Thermal night shots would be too much as well.

I'm rethinking the 223/556 options. How does the 40gr V-Max work out on Coyotes inside 200 yards? Does it have enough oomph to be humane and put them down quickly?

TIA,
Sid

 

[Matt_3479]

I am currently running the 204 ruger in a Remington 700 VSSF II and a 20 tactical! I love my 20 tactical but it is also semi custom! It shoots the 39gr blitz into .2's and .3's easily!!!

Ive really wanted to try a 17 hornet for some time now and will probably one of the next small caliber cartridges I add to the safe!

 

[Quarter Horse]

After reading up some more on the various options, I was tempted by the $400 MidwayUSA Stoner upper in 22 Nosler but, I read a lot of bad reports on the barrels themselves so ruled that out. The 22 Nosler doesn't really appeal to me. I could always go with a 6.8-22 and skip the Nosler brass though I wouldn't have access to factory ammo.

Muzzle blast reports on the 204Ruger have me rethinking that one. I really don't want to wake the neighbors up on the weekend morning and evening. Thermal night shots would be too much as well.

I'm rethinking the 223/556 options. How does the 40gr V-Max work out on Coyotes inside 200 yards? Does it have enough oomph to be humane and put them down quickly?

TIA,
Sid

The 40gr VMax has worked fine for me past 200yds. The 53gr VMax has killed them out to 419yds. Up until a couple of years ago, I hunted rock chucks with a couple of other guys both of whom have .223s and .20Tacs. I don't think anyone saw any notable difference in terminal performance. I did see a difference between the 40gr. and 53gr. at 100-200yd. ranges. The 53gr. was grenading them. Over 200yds. they seemed equal.

 

[orkan]

I love shooting my 17rem. I hate loading for it. I hate loading for 204 too, just not as bad as 17.

In that mindset... I'd go with a .223AI. Incredibly versatile cartridge and 22cal is large enough to not cause problems while loading such as tumbling media packing and powder bridging. Not to mention with the .22cal you don't need a specialty tiny cleaning rod or bore guide. I really like the .223AI.

 

[xdeano]

Stay away from the 17cal for Coyotes and hogs. I'd do a 204 with a 50grn bullet for coyote and I wouldn't go below a fast heavy grain in 22cal for pigs. Something in that 75-80grn in a 22-243, or 22-6mm Better yet use a 243 for hogs and Coyotes. I earn a living doing animal control. I definitely wouldn't choose a 17 or 204 for either species. Can it be done, sure. But is it practical? Use enough gun for the critter to be cleanly killed. Before I was doing adc I tried a 17rem and a 204 when the round came out 15 or so years ago. If it tells you much I sold both of those rifles and went back to using my 22-250 for Coyotes. Pigs are tougher then coyotes, so you'll want more gun. If I'm on a pig complaint, I'll bring either a 22-243 pushing 80grn, 6slr pushing 105s, or a 6.5saum pushing 130s. I've shot a bunch with each over the years, they work.

You'll get guys who tell you that a 17 Will work great for Coyotes and pigs, they'll also be the guys telling you that they can shoot elephants with them at 700yds, offhand, backwards and upside down riding in a helo ascending to 6000feet.
That's super. They should be sent to the front with those skills.
Deano

 

[spaniel]

I love my 20 Practical, but I would top it out on coyotes and not shoot hogs with it. 223 minimum there. Rather go bigger.

 

[Hondo1]

Nothing scatters a prairie dog like a .204 but I would consider it marginal for a coyote. Perfect shot placement is not always a possibility when a yote is hauling butt through the sage brush. The big .224's or a .243 is my go to for those critters.

 

[Sendit6.5]

Stay away from the 17cal for Coyotes and hogs. I'd do a 204 with a 50grn bullet for coyote and I wouldn't go below a fast heavy grain in 22cal for pigs. Something in that 75-80grn in a 22-243, or 22-6mm Better yet use a 243 for hogs and Coyotes. I earn a living doing animal control. I definitely wouldn't choose a 17 or 204 for either species. Can it be done, sure. But is it practical? Use enough gun for the critter to be cleanly killed. Before I was doing adc I tried a 17rem and a 204 when the round came out 15 or so years ago. If it tells you much I sold both of those rifles and went back to using my 22-250 for Coyotes. Pigs are tougher then coyotes, so you'll want more gun. If I'm on a pig complaint, I'll bring either a 22-243 pushing 80grn, 6slr pushing 105s, or a 6.5saum pushing 130s. I've shot a bunch with each over the years, they work.

You'll get guys who tell you that a 17 Will work great for Coyotes and pigs, they'll also be the guys telling you that they can shoot elephants with them at 700yds, offhand, backwards and upside down riding in a helo ascending to 6000feet.
That's super. They should be sent to the front with those skills.
Deano

Really well said!! I like my .204 for cats and sometimes for coyotes but I use a variety of guns for different scenarios; and I'm rarely disappointed by taking more gun than less - except with bobcats. Where I work, we don't take a lot of really long shots on coyotes and, honestly, I kill more coyotes with a shotgun than I do with a rifle. Same with hogs - I shoot most of them from a helicopter when I'm doing control work for clients. It's just more efficient than hunting them in a traditional way. Trying to hit a running hog, or the errant coyote we jump up, with a rifle is not nearly as effective as using a shotgun.

My point is, there really isn't ONE perfect caliber. What you use depends on the type of shot you expect to take, based on the terrain you'll be hunting. These internet discussions on caliber choice are interesting but I'm not sure how helpful they are when they include guys from all over the country - the terrain we hunt is very different and even the animals are different. Coyotes here in S Texas are smaller than coyotes in Montana and the same goes for bobcats. So, our needs and our experiences are different. Just saying, it's important to keep in mind the fact that these differences exist when getting advice online. What works for me, for example, may not work as well for a guy in Arizona or Maine; and vice versa.


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[308220]

17 packs a helluva punch on chipmunks and small birds! Im waiting on the dangerous game (lol) bullets before I get one. As for the 204, everybody ive known that owned one, now doesnt. 22-250 or a 243 is your calling. Neither of those will land in the next county if you shoot a coyote with a varmint bullet. And theyll have plenty of ass to get the job done. Besides wondering. And ive also seen a lot of yotes hobble away from shoulder shots with a 223. Here in Ohio, its common to encounter a 50lb male yote. Shot many in the 40+lb range here. Bring enough gun.

 

[hollowoutadime]

22-250 with a vmax, devastating. suppressed if possible, I like the 220 swift with frangible bullets. Good reach, Hell on dimes too

 

[xdeano]

The deal with 17s and 20s is they are better suited for varmints, not larger predators. The bullets are extremely frangible. I will say that the 17s and 20s are great for small predators though, fox and cats they're excellent.
xdeano

 

[orkan]

55gr 20cal berger's are quite suitable for predators.

 

[steve123]

55gr berger's are quite suitable for predators.

and at 3830 fps - .38BC, out of a 20x47L, will helicopter the crap out of a chuck at 427Y!

 

[knockemdown]

Since ya threw hogs into the mix, I'd also suggest .223AI. With a 1:8, you could load any manner of varmint bullet for coyotes, and a 62TSX for hogs. Or just load the 62 for everything & be done with it...

If ya kept hogs out of the mix, a .17/204 w/1:9 launching 30gr @ 4100+ fps. is no slouch on coyotes. 'Hotrod' .172 cal. performance is head & shoulders above any factory offered in .17Rem, .17Fireball, .17Hornet, etc. Those smaller cases just don't have the horsepower to launch a 30 gr fast enough to make it shine...

F.w.i.w, I have a .17Predator (.17-223 Improved) & had a .20TAC. The .17Predator is every bit the coyote killer that the .20TAC was, and shoots flatter to boot...

But yeah, .223AI for what you wanna do!