1903 sniper?

[medbill]

Hey guys, friend of mine broke this out today and my damn memory card was full and I was in a rush but here are a few pics. I remember the barrel at the muzzle being stamped SA, 1-24, A all under one another. One really weird thing was it had a front sight on it. I know next to nothing about these rifles. The scope mounts say Unertl only marking on scope was "6" near the rear of the scope. Only spotted one cartouche see pic. Thanks for any input and let me know what other pics would be helpful. Someone added a damn rear peep sight. How much does that kill the value?

 

[medbill]

Re: 1903 sniper?

My gut is saying its a fake built around a sniper receiver but like I said I don't know a lot about it.

 

[wilshire1412]

Re: 1903 sniper?

Looks like a mixmaster parts gun to me, WW1 Mark 1 receiver with a WWII scant stock and a post WWII Lyman 48 rear sight added on. Might make a nice shooter, not a rare collectable.

 

[medbill]

Re: 1903 sniper?

Thanks will get more pics up when and if he sends them over to me.

 

[Don't try to run]

Re: 1903 sniper?

Obviously and positively not a Military or Arsenal built Sniper Rifle.

The action is a 03 Mk I receiver with the second version magazine cutoff. It was made to accept the pederson device to shoot .30 cal pistol ammo for training at lower cost, and in smaller safety zone ranges (like indoors). Good luck ever finding a Pederson device.
The Stock is a Raritan Arsenal (Edison NJ, 1917-1963) rebuild stock.
Marine Sniper and Match 03's, equipped with a Unertl 8X would have had a front sight, most likely the wide USMC Match version, and a larger front sight hood, not those low, stamped and pressed ones on most WW II ones like the Remington manufactured ones, or the Smiths Coronas.
Unertl rings were readily available. Not enough info on the scope. looks to be of lete 20's/30's vintage. I know what it isn't, but not what it is.
The receiver sight is likely a Lyman, and it must be pretty ineresting trying to use it with the scope, or vice versa.
Somebody may have bought a surplus rifle in the late 20's or 30's, cheap, since it's a Mk I, and put on the Lyman sight. Then added the scope later to the same rifle without removing the Lyman. Pulling the slide up and out would allow the scope to be used, but you can't use the Lyman with the scope on. A ral WTF was he thinking. I see he left the factory ladder on, making it a very tight fit for the scope. That should have been removed with either of those sight addons.
Seems to me maybe somebody wanted to shoot some NRA shoots back in the 30's, and tried to upgrade instead of buying a new rifle from DCM. It might be something from Sedgley also, and had work done later. I doubt it is a Bannerman buy.
Post some pictures of te front sight, the front end of the stock, and full of the scope.
I expect all parts are milled.
I hope he didn't pay too much for it, and that the scope is servicable.

 

[medbill]

Re: 1903 sniper?

I think he paid over a grand for it...when he bought it a couple of years ago I told him to be really careful especially at the price he told me he paid back then. We just happened to be talking guns and CMP stuff and he mentioned this rifle and I said bring and lets go over it. I knew that cut out was familiar, thanks for all the detailed info. Will post some pics when he sends them or if I get a chance to take some. Thanks! I dread telling him but its gotta be done and he wanted to me to ask around about it.

 

[marshallwk]

Re: 1903 sniper?

I think your tracking already, but itll help if you post pictures of all the numbers. Theres a few sites on the web that have listings of all the range numbers so you can see were the parts come from. If its not from the factory it won't even be on there of course.

 

[handym3000]

Re: 1903 sniper?

that thing is a mixmaster of parts and not a ww2 sniper in anyway.

the lymans are a dead giveaway,

the scope is not correct
the rings are not correct.
the ww2 ones from usmc are black

they did not have a front sight.

get a poyer book on the 1903 to get a batter undertanding

 

[GunKnowledge]

Re: 1903 sniper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: handym3000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that thing is a mixmaster of parts and not a ww2 sniper in anyway.

the lymans are a dead giveaway,

the scope is not correct
the rings are not correct.
the ww2 ones from usmc are black

they did not have a front sight.

get a poyer book on the 1903 to get a batter undertanding </div></div>

"Don't try to run" completely beat ya to it, with grammar & spelling.

The only thing I thought about was the cutout, but not my subject area...

Hope she at least shoots worth a dern.

 

[Don't try to run]

Re: 1903 sniper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: handym3000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that thing is a mixmaster of parts and not a ww2 sniper in anyway.

the lymans are a dead giveaway,

the scope is not correct
the rings are not correct.
the ww2 ones from usmc are black

they did not have a front sight.

get a poyer book on the 1903 to get a batter undertanding</div></div>

1903A4s, all made from stock Remingtons, had no front sight and a variety of different scope models.

Marine Sniper rifles were all made from 1903A1 match rifles in stock at Philadelphia (where they were assembled and maintained) or from selected rifles obtained and modified from other armories.
They all had the Marine Match style front sight blade and hood retained.
All had a "C" stock.
All the scopes, 2000 of them, were 8x Unertl, and marked with USMC. Some serial numbers did go above 2000 though. I guess some produced were rejected, and the contract was for 2000 delivered, so I am sure Unertl made more and additional parts.
Unertl Scopes not marked USMC were already in stock for Match rifles, and were also used, so there is a possibility that some early genuine USMC Sniper Rifles didn't have that marked scope, but I doubt they survived.
After any battles, when a unit was removed from the line, all weapons were turned in, inspected, repaired, and often replaced with entirely new or rebuilt ones. It didn't take long in those battles to damage a weapon. They took a hell of a beating, just like the users. The delicate Sniper Rifles were at least as prone to damage from combat use and enviromentals.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: 1903 sniper?

"The action is a 03 Mk I receiver with the second version magazine cutoff. It was made to accept the pederson device to shoot .30 cal pistol ammo for training at lower cost, and in smaller safety zone ranges (like indoors). Good luck ever finding a Pederson device..."

There were designed for Trench Warfare. Large stick magazine using .32 ACP. Don't remember if 20 or 30 rounds. Were found to be unacceptable and were (mostly) all destroyed. The Paderson devise replaces the bolt and includes a magazine. I have only seen one in the past +-40 years.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[Don't try to run]

Re: 1903 sniper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerry M</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

There were designed for Trench Warfare. Large stick magazine using .32 ACP. Don't remember if 20 or 30 rounds. Were found to be unacceptable and were (mostly) all destroyed. The Paderson devise replaces the bolt and includes a magazine. I have only seen one in the past +-40 years.

Good luck

Jerry</div></div>

Correct. I should have looked in Brophy's book instead of posting off the top of my head. He only has 19 pages on the Device, including a picture of the bandolier and boxes of " Cal. .30 auto pistol ball cartridges, model of 1918".

Seems, although over 101,000 rifles were made and modified for them, nobody wanted them. They were offered to Army commands for Riot and subcaliber use in 1919, but were rejected.
In March 1931 they were offered to the Navy and Marine Corps. Rejected.
In April 1931 64,873 devices and 60 million rounds of ammunition were destroyed.
In 1938-1939 all the Mk I rifles had their special parts removed and were reclassified as M1903 rifles.

Now the history of the rifle that is the basis of this thread gets cloudy to me. the weapon was classified until 1931, and the stocks (which seems to be total manufactured) in storage not reclassified as M1903 until 38-39.
So the rifle in question might very well have been obtained and modified all post WW II, by somebody who obviously wanted to shoot with some degree of precision, considering the scope and sight he mounted on it.

 

[Jerry m]

Re: 1903 sniper?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....by somebody who obviously wanted to shoot with some degree of precision, considering the scope and sight he mounted on it. </div></div>

Remember that tons of there rifles were released cheaply to the public after both wars. There were popular with target shooters as a result.

Good luck

Jerry