If I wanted to shoot 2000 yards just for giggles, which round would be better, a 7mm rem mag or 300wm or 7wsm
Has anybody even tried something like this?
Has anybody even tried something like this?
- Thread starter KnightOfNee
- Start date
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
2000 yards is a long poke... I would forget the 7's and 300 win.... I'd step up to a 338 lapua or edge
2000 yards is a long poke... I would forget the 7's and 300 win.... I'd step up to a 338 lapua or edge
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
The 7RM, 7WSM and 300 WM will all make it there, it's been done.
Whether you arrive supersonic is another question and altitude/temp/pressure is going to be a big factor in that.
If you have to shoot through the sound barrier the 300 WM with a 208 Amax in it may actually behave better than the higher BC 7mm's because of transonic stability. It's been shown by several members that the 208 will go through the sound barrier well, I didn't have as much luck with the 180gr 7mm's. I have heard, but not seen good data to support the claim, that a 7mm 175 SMK will do the job too.
There's several rounds that will go 2000 yards in 30 cal you can look at the 300 WM, 300 RUM, 30-375 Ruger, 300 Hulk, 30-338 LM, to arrive at 2k or more. 300 WM is probably the lightest of them that I'd try it with, but we know it can get there under the right conditions.
Dave Tooley and Tom Sarver have done testing with the 30-375 Ruger (Dave) and the 300 Hulk (Tom) out past 2000 with proven, repeatable results.
The 7RM, 7WSM and 300 WM will all make it there, it's been done.
Whether you arrive supersonic is another question and altitude/temp/pressure is going to be a big factor in that.
If you have to shoot through the sound barrier the 300 WM with a 208 Amax in it may actually behave better than the higher BC 7mm's because of transonic stability. It's been shown by several members that the 208 will go through the sound barrier well, I didn't have as much luck with the 180gr 7mm's. I have heard, but not seen good data to support the claim, that a 7mm 175 SMK will do the job too.
There's several rounds that will go 2000 yards in 30 cal you can look at the 300 WM, 300 RUM, 30-375 Ruger, 300 Hulk, 30-338 LM, to arrive at 2k or more. 300 WM is probably the lightest of them that I'd try it with, but we know it can get there under the right conditions.
Dave Tooley and Tom Sarver have done testing with the 30-375 Ruger (Dave) and the 300 Hulk (Tom) out past 2000 with proven, repeatable results.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I am trying to get my 7mmSTW to reach 2000 yards. THEORETICALLY, it is possible with the JLK/Swampworks 180gr bullets. They have a very high BC. I have a 8 1/2 twist barrel long necked for the JLK 180 and on paper they are supersonic at 2000 yards. My muzzle velocity is ~ 3020 fps which gives a velocity of 1120fps at 2000 yards. I don't have accuracy results at 2000 yards, I still need to get out on out the new long range Kentucky shooting area as soon as it is operational.
I am trying to get my 7mmSTW to reach 2000 yards. THEORETICALLY, it is possible with the JLK/Swampworks 180gr bullets. They have a very high BC. I have a 8 1/2 twist barrel long necked for the JLK 180 and on paper they are supersonic at 2000 yards. My muzzle velocity is ~ 3020 fps which gives a velocity of 1120fps at 2000 yards. I don't have accuracy results at 2000 yards, I still need to get out on out the new long range Kentucky shooting area as soon as it is operational.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
The 7mm JLK BC is nowhere near the theoretical value on the website over the speed range you are shooting. It is really closer to the Berger at appx 0.66 G1 Bryan Litz tested it and got values in that range. I dont remember it offhand to say exactly what it is.
The 7mm JLK BC is nowhere near the theoretical value on the website over the speed range you are shooting. It is really closer to the Berger at appx 0.66 G1 Bryan Litz tested it and got values in that range. I dont remember it offhand to say exactly what it is.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 7mm JLK BC is nowhere near the theoretical value on the website over the speed range you are shooting. It is really closer to the Berger at appx 0.66 G1 Bryan Litz tested it and got values in that range. I dont remember it offhand to say exactly what it is. </div></div>
0.64 something I think Bohem.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 7mm JLK BC is nowhere near the theoretical value on the website over the speed range you are shooting. It is really closer to the Berger at appx 0.66 G1 Bryan Litz tested it and got values in that range. I dont remember it offhand to say exactly what it is. </div></div>
0.64 something I think Bohem.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I've not shot any of the other rifles, so I can't comment. I've been playing with the outer reaches of the 300WM and am continuing to be surprised by how well this cartridge performs at ELR.
I used to believe comments like dpreston's and just assumed that I'd need something bigger to get to a mile or more. Then I did something novel. I tried it.
My 22" 300WM shooting 208 Amax's has reached just under 2300 yds with a 4 round group that was just at or under MOA (under 1/4 mil according to my spotter, that would be 20"). They go transonic somewhere around 1800-1900 depending on atmospherics. My data at these ranges is limited. 3 rounds at 1900 yards in a sub-moa group and 4 rounds at 2300. I have several cold bore hits at 1500. But their behavior is extremely stable and they react to wind holds and elev changes just like at short distances.
If I can get the elevation from my base/scope, I intend to try 2500 soon.
John
<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA</span>: In the ELR world, I can't think of a lower $/rd. player than the 300WM
I've not shot any of the other rifles, so I can't comment. I've been playing with the outer reaches of the 300WM and am continuing to be surprised by how well this cartridge performs at ELR.
I used to believe comments like dpreston's and just assumed that I'd need something bigger to get to a mile or more. Then I did something novel. I tried it.
My 22" 300WM shooting 208 Amax's has reached just under 2300 yds with a 4 round group that was just at or under MOA (under 1/4 mil according to my spotter, that would be 20"). They go transonic somewhere around 1800-1900 depending on atmospherics. My data at these ranges is limited. 3 rounds at 1900 yards in a sub-moa group and 4 rounds at 2300. I have several cold bore hits at 1500. But their behavior is extremely stable and they react to wind holds and elev changes just like at short distances.
If I can get the elevation from my base/scope, I intend to try 2500 soon.
John
<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA</span>: In the ELR world, I can't think of a lower $/rd. player than the 300WM
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
One thing to keep in mind when shooting ELR, into and thru transonic is the effect of altitude on transonic stability.
The long 7mm's that might tumble at transonic speeds at sea level may sail right thru at high altitude.
Just like when reporting what barrel twist is necessary to stabilize a bullet from the muzzle, we have to report our altitude to prevent the results from being misunderstood and misapplied. I recall an argument where someone was shooting 6mm 105's from a 1:10" twist and someone else was telling them it wasn't possible. Turns out the 1:10" guy was at like 8,000 feet asl. That settled that.
Last month I shot 2400 yards in Wyoming with a 338 Lapua Mag and Berger's 300 grain hybrids. The bullets remained accurate and their predicted drop was precisely as predicted by it's G7 BC even though the impact velocity was subsonic (~1000 fps IIRC). I got this result at 6,500 feet, but I have no idea if the same bullets would be stable thru transonic speeds at sea level (more than likely they're not).
All I'm saying is that a bullet has a much easier time negotiating the adverse transonic effects if it's flying thru less dense air that accompanies the higher altitudes.
Let us know how it goes.
-Bryan
One thing to keep in mind when shooting ELR, into and thru transonic is the effect of altitude on transonic stability.
The long 7mm's that might tumble at transonic speeds at sea level may sail right thru at high altitude.
Just like when reporting what barrel twist is necessary to stabilize a bullet from the muzzle, we have to report our altitude to prevent the results from being misunderstood and misapplied. I recall an argument where someone was shooting 6mm 105's from a 1:10" twist and someone else was telling them it wasn't possible. Turns out the 1:10" guy was at like 8,000 feet asl. That settled that.
Last month I shot 2400 yards in Wyoming with a 338 Lapua Mag and Berger's 300 grain hybrids. The bullets remained accurate and their predicted drop was precisely as predicted by it's G7 BC even though the impact velocity was subsonic (~1000 fps IIRC). I got this result at 6,500 feet, but I have no idea if the same bullets would be stable thru transonic speeds at sea level (more than likely they're not).
All I'm saying is that a bullet has a much easier time negotiating the adverse transonic effects if it's flying thru less dense air that accompanies the higher altitudes.
Let us know how it goes.
-Bryan
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I was shooting/spotting with jrob300 the day he recorded his consistent shots at 2300 yards(2296yds) with the 300WM/208AMax. Our firing point was at 4500', and the target was probably 5500'.
I was shooting/spotting with jrob300 the day he recorded his consistent shots at 2300 yards(2296yds) with the 300WM/208AMax. Our firing point was at 4500', and the target was probably 5500'.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing to keep in mind when shooting ELR, into and thru transonic is the effect of altitude on transonic stability.</div></div>
I did not know this. I keep learning stuff! Thanks for making that clear Bryan. MM already stated our altitude. Thanks.
DesertHK,
It was a point target. I don't remember how big it was. I just picked a small rock in an area where we thought we could spot our misses. I honestly never expected to get anywhere close, so when the first correctly aimed round fell just in front of the rock, I decided to go for group size rather than a hit. Had we stayed at that spot, I'm confident that hits would not have been that difficult.
Maybe MM remembers how big it was. The spotter is always the smarter guy! I was just the trigger puller.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryan Litz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing to keep in mind when shooting ELR, into and thru transonic is the effect of altitude on transonic stability.</div></div>
I did not know this. I keep learning stuff! Thanks for making that clear Bryan. MM already stated our altitude. Thanks.
DesertHK,
It was a point target. I don't remember how big it was. I just picked a small rock in an area where we thought we could spot our misses. I honestly never expected to get anywhere close, so when the first correctly aimed round fell just in front of the rock, I decided to go for group size rather than a hit. Had we stayed at that spot, I'm confident that hits would not have been that difficult.
Maybe MM remembers how big it was. The spotter is always the smarter guy! I was just the trigger puller.
John
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 7mm JLK BC is nowhere near the theoretical value on the website over the speed range you are shooting. It is really closer to the Berger at appx 0.66 G1 Bryan Litz tested it and got values in that range. I dont remember it offhand to say exactly what it is. </div></div>
Wow, thanks for pointing that out. I just picked up my copy of "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting" and found the BC you were referring to. Quite a difference over what JLK is publishing. I guess I would have figured out the true BC after my scope data showed a lower BC at range.
bummer....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 7mm JLK BC is nowhere near the theoretical value on the website over the speed range you are shooting. It is really closer to the Berger at appx 0.66 G1 Bryan Litz tested it and got values in that range. I dont remember it offhand to say exactly what it is. </div></div>
Wow, thanks for pointing that out. I just picked up my copy of "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting" and found the BC you were referring to. Quite a difference over what JLK is publishing. I guess I would have figured out the true BC after my scope data showed a lower BC at range.
bummer....
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
It is very doable, both should work fine. On a recent outing we put a Four foot square plywood up at a mile(1760 yds) and proceeded to shoot at it the drop results are below.
308 100moa
300win 59moa
408ct 48moa
(we also shot a 6.5 284 and it did very well, but I do not remember the drop)
I was blown away by how many holes were in the plywood. In my opinion the 300 win mag had plenty more distance left in it.We have a guy with a 7mm mag and will take it out in october and try it. The coolest part was we were shooting onto a wet sandy hill and our bullets were easy to find on the ground all around the target(I have some nice 408 souveneirs!)
It is very doable, both should work fine. On a recent outing we put a Four foot square plywood up at a mile(1760 yds) and proceeded to shoot at it the drop results are below.
308 100moa
300win 59moa
408ct 48moa
(we also shot a 6.5 284 and it did very well, but I do not remember the drop)
I was blown away by how many holes were in the plywood. In my opinion the 300 win mag had plenty more distance left in it.We have a guy with a 7mm mag and will take it out in october and try it. The coolest part was we were shooting onto a wet sandy hill and our bullets were easy to find on the ground all around the target(I have some nice 408 souveneirs!)
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I have shot my 300Wm @ 2K yds a couple times with good results. My 208 A-Max @ 2950 went transonic @ about 1500 yds, & held a 13" group. Elevation was 2000'ASL. May try the 210 berger next, to see if it remains stable.
I have shot my 300Wm @ 2K yds a couple times with good results. My 208 A-Max @ 2950 went transonic @ about 1500 yds, & held a 13" group. Elevation was 2000'ASL. May try the 210 berger next, to see if it remains stable.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandbogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">300win 59moa
</div></div>
What was the bullet and velocity on this?
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandbogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">300win 59moa
</div></div>
What was the bullet and velocity on this?
John
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Not sure on velocity but the bullet was a smk 190 gn.
Altitude density was around 6000 if I remember correctly. The 300 was very impressive. It is a big bang for your buck in my opinion. I really like the 7mm mag and look forward to seeing what it does compared to the 300( I bet they are pretty close at a mile)
Rifle was a stock pss 300 win mag with Leupold 16x mk4.
Not sure on velocity but the bullet was a smk 190 gn.
Altitude density was around 6000 if I remember correctly. The 300 was very impressive. It is a big bang for your buck in my opinion. I really like the 7mm mag and look forward to seeing what it does compared to the 300( I bet they are pretty close at a mile)
Rifle was a stock pss 300 win mag with Leupold 16x mk4.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Hi i am shooting a lot of 175gr MatchKings they go transonic well we downloaded some and fired them to see the results at 1200 yards as they were going slow to start with and they stabalised well.
I usualy run them at over 3100fps in a 30" barreled 7mm Rem SAUM with a long throat and 66.5 to 67.5gr Retumbo and CCI mag primers the Norma brass is heavier and has requires a grain less powder to duplicate the results with the Rem Cases it is amasing the velocity that can be obtained with retumbo and the 175gr MatchKings the thing is they are much better than the 180gr Bergers if you want to shoot them through the transonic zone the 180gr Bergers are awsome as long as you keep them above 1200fps impact velocity.
If you are just shooting paper or steel the 7mm actualy has an advantage over the 30 cals try retumbo and the 175 MatchKings they will get you to 2000 no problems.
If you want to streach it much past there skip the 30 cal and start to launch some 30gr 338's from an edge or similar.
Hi i am shooting a lot of 175gr MatchKings they go transonic well we downloaded some and fired them to see the results at 1200 yards as they were going slow to start with and they stabalised well.
I usualy run them at over 3100fps in a 30" barreled 7mm Rem SAUM with a long throat and 66.5 to 67.5gr Retumbo and CCI mag primers the Norma brass is heavier and has requires a grain less powder to duplicate the results with the Rem Cases it is amasing the velocity that can be obtained with retumbo and the 175gr MatchKings the thing is they are much better than the 180gr Bergers if you want to shoot them through the transonic zone the 180gr Bergers are awsome as long as you keep them above 1200fps impact velocity.
If you are just shooting paper or steel the 7mm actualy has an advantage over the 30 cals try retumbo and the 175 MatchKings they will get you to 2000 no problems.
If you want to streach it much past there skip the 30 cal and start to launch some 30gr 338's from an edge or similar.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MM, how big was his target? </div></div>
Jrob, correct me if this doesn't sound right, but we were shooting at a small rock that we referenced from a larger rockpile below it. It was a rock about 1/4 mil in subtention. So at 2300 yards that should come out to around 10" or so.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MM, how big was his target? </div></div>
Jrob, correct me if this doesn't sound right, but we were shooting at a small rock that we referenced from a larger rockpile below it. It was a rock about 1/4 mil in subtention. So at 2300 yards that should come out to around 10" or so.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
The thing that really made the attempt even possible was Broz's rangefinder. That PLRF-10 ranges past 2500 yards. Pretty cool.
The thing that really made the attempt even possible was Broz's rangefinder. That PLRF-10 ranges past 2500 yards. Pretty cool.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing that really made the attempt even possible was Broz's rangefinder. That PLRF-10 ranges past 2500 yards. Pretty cool. </div></div>
MM & jrob300, That day prompted me to remove my 8~32 NXS and replace it with a 5.5~22 NXS for the added 40 moa. the 5.5 has. The scope has been changed. I plan to go send a few 300 Bergers at that rock. Who wants to come?
Jeff
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing that really made the attempt even possible was Broz's rangefinder. That PLRF-10 ranges past 2500 yards. Pretty cool. </div></div>
MM & jrob300, That day prompted me to remove my 8~32 NXS and replace it with a 5.5~22 NXS for the added 40 moa. the 5.5 has. The scope has been changed. I plan to go send a few 300 Bergers at that rock. Who wants to come?
Jeff
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I am so in! That rock doesn't stand a chance now. I think if we'd stuck around a bit, all three of us would've hit it. I want to see that 22" '06 go 2300! Now I have to schedule a visit to Bozeman before hunting season.
I wish I'd planned better... I'm in Helena today.
MM, IIRC .25 mil at 2300 yds would be 36 x 2.3 x .25 = 20.7". Correct?
John
I am so in! That rock doesn't stand a chance now. I think if we'd stuck around a bit, all three of us would've hit it. I want to see that 22" '06 go 2300! Now I have to schedule a visit to Bozeman before hunting season.
I wish I'd planned better... I'm in Helena today.
MM, IIRC .25 mil at 2300 yds would be 36 x 2.3 x .25 = 20.7". Correct?
John
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Jeff, I'm definitely in.
John, Your math looks better than mine. I think you got it, around 20".
Jeff, I'm definitely in.
John, Your math looks better than mine. I think you got it, around 20".
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
If we have the time, it would be cool to see if we can get some sort of handle on the maximum range of each round. How we define this is a good question... and in my case, it may be beyond the ability of my current unmodified sighting system. I think I can only get 35 mil as it stands.
John
If we have the time, it would be cool to see if we can get some sort of handle on the maximum range of each round. How we define this is a good question... and in my case, it may be beyond the ability of my current unmodified sighting system. I think I can only get 35 mil as it stands.
John
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Well, there's maximum range, and there's maximum effective range. Two rather different things.
Trying to define 'maximum effective range' is probably a good long topic in itself. I think it's a moving target, depending on atmo, conditions, target size, objective, etc, etc.
Effective range for harassing fire, vs destructive fire for example, will be different.
Well, there's maximum range, and there's maximum effective range. Two rather different things.
Trying to define 'maximum effective range' is probably a good long topic in itself. I think it's a moving target, depending on atmo, conditions, target size, objective, etc, etc.
Effective range for harassing fire, vs destructive fire for example, will be different.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I believe the 2300 yards may be a bit past where my 30-06 load can go. But, I'm going to give it another try.
I believe the 2300 yards may be a bit past where my 30-06 load can go. But, I'm going to give it another try.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the 2300 yards may be a bit past where my 30-06 load can go. But, I'm going to give it another try. </div></div>
Now that's what I call a guy who's willing to challenge the accepted. Good on 'ya, Shane. I hope I can be there to see it.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the 2300 yards may be a bit past where my 30-06 load can go. But, I'm going to give it another try. </div></div>
Now that's what I call a guy who's willing to challenge the accepted. Good on 'ya, Shane. I hope I can be there to see it.
John
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Well, when you are headed this way, let us know. I'd enjoy getting out there with you again.
Well, when you are headed this way, let us know. I'd enjoy getting out there with you again.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I have taken my 7WSM to 1,780 yards as did my brother useing his .284 winchester on teh same day. I'm a bit skeptical that the 7WSM has the jucie to reach 2K and remain supersonic, at least at my 2,100 foot desert range, but I guess its more a question of how fast you are running them. at 2,950fps, I think the answer is a farily solid no. Starting them at 3,100 I'm not nearly as skeptical. So the question becomse one the veliocity you want to start at. I've not tried to see 3,100 in my 7WSM and the berger 180s, but that is a bit spicey. It may be doable to the 7 REm Mag.
I agree with Bryon L. I'm no sure how the heavy VLD 7mms trasnition to subsonic.
JeffVN
I have taken my 7WSM to 1,780 yards as did my brother useing his .284 winchester on teh same day. I'm a bit skeptical that the 7WSM has the jucie to reach 2K and remain supersonic, at least at my 2,100 foot desert range, but I guess its more a question of how fast you are running them. at 2,950fps, I think the answer is a farily solid no. Starting them at 3,100 I'm not nearly as skeptical. So the question becomse one the veliocity you want to start at. I've not tried to see 3,100 in my 7WSM and the berger 180s, but that is a bit spicey. It may be doable to the 7 REm Mag.
I agree with Bryon L. I'm no sure how the heavy VLD 7mms trasnition to subsonic.
JeffVN
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandbogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is very doable, both should work fine. On a recent outing we put a Four foot square plywood up at a mile(1760 yds) and proceeded to shoot at it the drop results are below.
308 100moa
300win 59moa
408ct 48moa
</div></div>
So did the 308 make it to a mile stable? What bullet at what alt?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandbogg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is very doable, both should work fine. On a recent outing we put a Four foot square plywood up at a mile(1760 yds) and proceeded to shoot at it the drop results are below.
308 100moa
300win 59moa
408ct 48moa
</div></div>
So did the 308 make it to a mile stable? What bullet at what alt?
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
175 grain smk, altitude was 4500(altitude density was about 6000). Several of us with different 308 rifles and loads obtained consistent hits at 1760.
As stated moa was 100
Granted all rounds did not hit the target but you would not want to be standing downrange !!
As for stable, probably not very stable but good enough to get there.( there were plenty of sideways holes in the target!!
175 grain smk, altitude was 4500(altitude density was about 6000). Several of us with different 308 rifles and loads obtained consistent hits at 1760.
As stated moa was 100
Granted all rounds did not hit the target but you would not want to be standing downrange !!
As for stable, probably not very stable but good enough to get there.( there were plenty of sideways holes in the target!!
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
At that range, the 308 would very much be subsonic. Assuming that the bullet passed through transonic stable, that much past would be difficult to accuratly hit something repeatably. Of course, it depends on how you define accurate but hitting a 1.5 MOA target at 1760 with a 308 would be the exception, not the norm.
At that range, the 308 would very much be subsonic. Assuming that the bullet passed through transonic stable, that much past would be difficult to accuratly hit something repeatably. Of course, it depends on how you define accurate but hitting a 1.5 MOA target at 1760 with a 308 would be the exception, not the norm.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I'm tossing 208s out of my 308 at 2600 fps. In local atmo (4500'), they are calc'ing about 1115 fps at 1760 yards. Definitely in the transonic region, but still supersonic. Hitting a 1.5 moa target is not too difficult in good conditions.
I'm only gunning a 20.5" bbl. A 26" bbl can make 2700 fps if loaded properly.
I'm not suggesting the 308 as a deliberate 1-mile round, but since I have ready access to some distances, I do play with it at extended ranges.
I'm tossing 208s out of my 308 at 2600 fps. In local atmo (4500'), they are calc'ing about 1115 fps at 1760 yards. Definitely in the transonic region, but still supersonic. Hitting a 1.5 moa target is not too difficult in good conditions.
I'm only gunning a 20.5" bbl. A 26" bbl can make 2700 fps if loaded properly.
I'm not suggesting the 308 as a deliberate 1-mile round, but since I have ready access to some distances, I do play with it at extended ranges.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I understand the the practical limits of the 308. what I am trying to get a handle on what .308 cal bullets (or any cal.) can make that transition to subsonic. The 308 win. by virtue of its lower starting velocity is the easiest to use to gather that data because you can shoot it subsonic at distances that can be measured my most off the shelf range finders.
I am aware of witnessed accounts of 75 and 80 AMax (.224), and 208 amax's hitting point first and repeatedly at subsonic speeds at distance and I am interested in any other reports Hiders can offer.
There is no "epic goal" in any of this, its just fun to know your limits and exceed them often as the saying goes. Its all just ELR "plinking", buts its a lot fun on a nice calm day.
Sioux
I understand the the practical limits of the 308. what I am trying to get a handle on what .308 cal bullets (or any cal.) can make that transition to subsonic. The 308 win. by virtue of its lower starting velocity is the easiest to use to gather that data because you can shoot it subsonic at distances that can be measured my most off the shelf range finders.
I am aware of witnessed accounts of 75 and 80 AMax (.224), and 208 amax's hitting point first and repeatedly at subsonic speeds at distance and I am interested in any other reports Hiders can offer.
There is no "epic goal" in any of this, its just fun to know your limits and exceed them often as the saying goes. Its all just ELR "plinking", buts its a lot fun on a nice calm day.
Sioux
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
From what I hear, on average, the Sierra Matchking design (tangent ogive, generous boat-tail) crosses the transonic region fairly well, typically better than the VLD designs. But that's just from reading, not firsthand knowledge.
I have a box of Sierra 220gr SMKs I've been meaning to play with.
From what I hear, on average, the Sierra Matchking design (tangent ogive, generous boat-tail) crosses the transonic region fairly well, typically better than the VLD designs. But that's just from reading, not firsthand knowledge.
I have a box of Sierra 220gr SMKs I've been meaning to play with.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I would venture to guess that this time of year, your DA would be a couply thousand feet higher than actual altitude under SAC. Running the 208's with a MV of 2600 fps, you would be pushing the BC of the bullet to be running 1115 fps at 1760. I would guess that you are most likely shooting on a slant range where the true distance is not 1760.
Please don't take this wrong as I am not trying to call you out on this. I just think that while you may be able to hit a target at that range, consecutive hits on a 1.5 MOA target would require very good conditions and luck to achieve. I don't think new shooters should build a rifle thinking that their 308 can shoot consistently at a mile.
I would venture to guess that this time of year, your DA would be a couply thousand feet higher than actual altitude under SAC. Running the 208's with a MV of 2600 fps, you would be pushing the BC of the bullet to be running 1115 fps at 1760. I would guess that you are most likely shooting on a slant range where the true distance is not 1760.
Please don't take this wrong as I am not trying to call you out on this. I just think that while you may be able to hit a target at that range, consecutive hits on a 1.5 MOA target would require very good conditions and luck to achieve. I don't think new shooters should build a rifle thinking that their 308 can shoot consistently at a mile.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Typical conditions are 25.5 Hg, 25% humidity, 70F.
The mile shot I typically shoot is a slight uphill shot, but nothing severe.
A novice shooting 175s or 168s near sea level, and expecting to make a mile, will certainly yield dismal returns.
Typical conditions are 25.5 Hg, 25% humidity, 70F.
The mile shot I typically shoot is a slight uphill shot, but nothing severe.
A novice shooting 175s or 168s near sea level, and expecting to make a mile, will certainly yield dismal returns.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
My mile-shot looks like this,
My mile-shot looks like this,
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
My range is fairly flat the da as stated before was 6000, I am not claiming we hit the target every time. (I Think the term ELR plinking is appropriate). I would be more than happy to take anyone out and repeat what we did. Keep an open mind until you have tried it.
My buddy is headed out today to shoot the 7mm mag(168 berger 2900 fps 75 moa drop on exbal) at 1760 yards at the same spot, I will give you a report on his results in a couple days.
I will not even tell you how far we shot our handguns to!( we were on a knoll overlooking a huge salt flat which allowed seeing hits and often several bounces!) The thing we learned is that there is no appreciable difference between 40, 45, and 9mm at extreme distance and 35 degrees is about the point of diminishing returns.
Enough talk, lets go shoot!
My range is fairly flat the da as stated before was 6000, I am not claiming we hit the target every time. (I Think the term ELR plinking is appropriate). I would be more than happy to take anyone out and repeat what we did. Keep an open mind until you have tried it.
My buddy is headed out today to shoot the 7mm mag(168 berger 2900 fps 75 moa drop on exbal) at 1760 yards at the same spot, I will give you a report on his results in a couple days.
I will not even tell you how far we shot our handguns to!( we were on a knoll overlooking a huge salt flat which allowed seeing hits and often several bounces!) The thing we learned is that there is no appreciable difference between 40, 45, and 9mm at extreme distance and 35 degrees is about the point of diminishing returns.
Enough talk, lets go shoot!
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
As to which is the best, to me the 300 win mag because of the its performance,availability of components and the affordable brass, it is hands down what I would pick.
I bet you could pick up a 300winmag pss, 16x leuopold,40moa base rings, bipod and some ammo for around $2000.( that was one of the 300 win mag rigs we had , the other was a very capable homemade mauser)
As to which is the best, to me the 300 win mag because of the its performance,availability of components and the affordable brass, it is hands down what I would pick.
I bet you could pick up a 300winmag pss, 16x leuopold,40moa base rings, bipod and some ammo for around $2000.( that was one of the 300 win mag rigs we had , the other was a very capable homemade mauser)
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Shane,
Our brief rabbit trail about Maximum Range and Maximum Effective range got me to thinking (dangerous, I know. ) BTW, I *really* like the term ELR plinking. Let's people know that we don't take ourselves too seriously.
Just to put things in perspective, My 208 Amax at 2300 yards (at 25.6 in Hg) has roughly the same velocity and energy that a 9mm handgun, the sidearm for most of the world's military forces, does at muzzle. Actually, it's even more than my 40 S&W. I'm advocating nothing here, so PLEASE, nobody take this for anything other than what it is... But it does make one think.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">I</span></span></span> wouldn't want to be standing out there with those dropping out of the sky!
John
Shane,
Our brief rabbit trail about Maximum Range and Maximum Effective range got me to thinking (dangerous, I know.
Just to put things in perspective, My 208 Amax at 2300 yards (at 25.6 in Hg) has roughly the same velocity and energy that a 9mm handgun, the sidearm for most of the world's military forces, does at muzzle. Actually, it's even more than my 40 S&W. I'm advocating nothing here, so PLEASE, nobody take this for anything other than what it is... But it does make one think.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">I</span></span></span> wouldn't want to be standing out there with those dropping out of the sky!
John
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
I'll second that. One of my misses @ 2000 yds went right through a downed log that was about 10" round.
I'll second that. One of my misses @ 2000 yds went right through a downed log that was about 10" round.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
MM, Keep us posted on the 220's. Maybe this winter I will buy some trail boss and load up various bullet types to about 1200fps and see what stays stable, but with hunting season around the corner and elk feeding in my sight in pasture it will have to wait until then.
On another note entirely, I explained the the ELR plinking concept to the little woman and told her I was putting off the custom .338. My sex life instantly improved! Who would have thought the 208 amax could do so much for so many? I will stick to that story until she gets something else stuck in stuck in her craw - choose your battles carefully gentlemen.
Sioux
MM, Keep us posted on the 220's. Maybe this winter I will buy some trail boss and load up various bullet types to about 1200fps and see what stays stable, but with hunting season around the corner and elk feeding in my sight in pasture it will have to wait until then.
On another note entirely, I explained the the ELR plinking concept to the little woman and told her I was putting off the custom .338. My sex life instantly improved! Who would have thought the 208 amax could do so much for so many? I will stick to that story until she gets something else stuck in stuck in her craw - choose your battles carefully gentlemen.
Sioux
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
When I get around to playing with the 220s, I'll post results here first.
When I get around to playing with the 220s, I'll post results here first.
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I explained the the ELR plinking concept to the little woman and told her I was putting off the custom .338. My sex life instantly improved! Who would have thought the 208 amax could do so much for so many? </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I explained the the ELR plinking concept to the little woman and told her I was putting off the custom .338. My sex life instantly improved! Who would have thought the 208 amax could do so much for so many? </div></div>
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
Well, the 7mm mag did well at a mile, but the data isnt all that great. He used a 12-42NXS nightforce and ran out of moa at 40 moa. At 12 x and with a 3mil hold over (sfp and ranges at 22 power) and 40 moa witnesses said they thoght he hit a t post at a mile( not every time , but accuracy was very good.)
Sorry, that is all I have. It does sound promising. More to follow....
Also had two complete revs into the wind.(no wind data but guess was around 8mph)Load was 168 gn berger at around 2900
Any guesses at how many moa holdover a 12-42 set at12x would be at a mile?
Well, the 7mm mag did well at a mile, but the data isnt all that great. He used a 12-42NXS nightforce and ran out of moa at 40 moa. At 12 x and with a 3mil hold over (sfp and ranges at 22 power) and 40 moa witnesses said they thoght he hit a t post at a mile( not every time , but accuracy was very good.)
Sorry, that is all I have. It does sound promising. More to follow....
Also had two complete revs into the wind.(no wind data but guess was around 8mph)Load was 168 gn berger at around 2900
Any guesses at how many moa holdover a 12-42 set at12x would be at a mile?
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
3 mils at 12X with a ranging power of 20 would have an actual value of 5.4 mils or 19.44 moa. Is this a nightforce?
3 mils at 12X with a ranging power of 20 would have an actual value of 5.4 mils or 19.44 moa. Is this a nightforce?
Re: 2000 yards 7mm rem mag vs 300wm
i've shot a 7mag toa mile with no keyholes, 168 vlds, out of a 23 inch barrel, but not to 2000. seems like a long way. I'd stick with 7's but step up to wsm to get more velocity.
i've shot a 7mag toa mile with no keyholes, 168 vlds, out of a 23 inch barrel, but not to 2000. seems like a long way. I'd stick with 7's but step up to wsm to get more velocity.
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