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Rifle Scopes 2018 - Year of the Ultra Shorts

Glassaholic

Optical theorist and conjecturer
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Nov 30, 2012
    8,109
    9,346
    Panhandle, FL
    Not too long ago if you wanted a higher magnification scope in a short package there were very few options, but with the introduction of 4 new scopes to this niche field of sport optics in 2018 the game has changed considerably. Ever since I got my first Bushnell ET DMR and mounted it to my LMT MWS rig I quickly realized the benefits and aesthetics of "short" scopes and now that covert style rigs are popping up all over the need continues to grow. For a full spec list of both old and new, see the bottom of this post.

    I'm going to classify an "Ultra Short" scope as one being under 14" in length while offering 18x or higher magnification. Of newer scope designs I believe March was the first to market with their 3-24x42 which was followed by Bushnell DMR 3.5-21x50 and Leupold with their Mark 6 3-18x44 and then Schmidt & Bender entered the foray with their "Ultra Short" series which started with the 5-20 and a 3-20 quickly followed. I may have my order wrong but I think this is fairly accurate. Regardless, for the last several years these have been the only options. But over the past month or so something drastic has happened with the introduction of 4 brand new scope designs, two of which are coming from manufacturers who've never offered any scopes in this range:
    • EOTech Super Short Vudu 5-25x50 (11.2" and 29.5oz according to Facebook info)
    • Leupold Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44 (12.06" and 26oz)
    • Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 (12.32" and 32.59oz)
    • ZCO ZC420 4-20x50 (12.8" and 34.8oz)
    And last year Sig introduced their own Ultra Short versions with:
    • Sig Tango 6 3-18x44 (37.6oz and 12.4")
    • Sig Tango 6 4-24x50 (40oz and 13.6")
    One of my biggest gripes with Schmidt has been their lack of .2 mil hash reticles and that has changed with the announcement of the LRR-Mil (announced last year but finally making its way to market in 2018) and the newly announced MSR2 reticle from FinnAccuraccy (which should also be available in 2018). I have a similar gripe with March, while the FML-1 and FML-T1 reticles are more to my liking than what Schmidt offers these reticles are too thick for my preference above 20x, again it's purely personal preference but also the reason why I sold my March 3-24x52 which was an amazing scope in almost all other areas.

    The big unknowns is how will all these scopes perform and while looking through them at SHOT will give an idea, they really need to get into some competent shooters hands for a real world review as looking at the exit sign across the hall and spinning the turrets a few times can only tell you so much.

    Leupold has hopefully fixed some of the woes of their Mark 6 3-18x44 with their new Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44; however, with it's 35mm tube it is a bit of an odd duck, but if the specs prove true they could finally have a winner with this one.

    EOTech is brand new to high magnification optics having introduced their Vudu series last year, but none of those came close to being "short" so the announcement of their super short 5-25x50 comes as a huge surprise and with the lowest MSRP of the bunch could be a game changer if they got the optics and mechanics right. No specs have been provided as yet so looking forward to that, but a facebook post apparently by an EOTech rep said the weight of this scope will be only 29.5oz. It was rumored last year that the EOTech Vudu line were made by LOW in Japan and if that is the case for the new 5-25x50 then this may become the bargain of the century.

    Kahles is a very well known brand in the long range community; however, their 4x erectors have been a limiting factor and offering only a 3-12 and 6-24 has had its own limitations, but the recently announced K318i 3.5-18x50 being an ultra short design will definitely turn some heads especially if the price is right, I really wished this scope would have been 3.5-18x56 to supplant the Hensoldt 4-16x56 as the short design low light king.

    The final entry is a brand new company called ZCO (Zero Compromise Optic) but has Jeff Huber involved (Nightforce and Kahles) which is a big name to have for a brand new optics company so I have high hopes for their two new offerings but am most excited about their ZC420 4-20x50 design which is an ultra short design. A quick read on their website shows that a lot of R&D went into their scopes and very little compromise was made. This could also mean that their prices will be in the stratosphere similar to Tangent Theta, but here's to hoping they are not. The one detriment to their designs is utilizing a 36mm tube, but if their optics prove to be second to none I think a lot will overlook this.

    Even though Sig has been out for at least a year with their new ultra short designs I'll mention them here as well because I think a lot of folks don't know they have these designs; however, they are the heaviest scopes of the bunch which may deter some shooters as one of the benefits traditionally for the ultra short design was some weight savings.

    Bushnell also introduced their updated DMR IIi 3.5-21x50 at the end of 2016, it represents the cheapest scope of the bunch and while its optics are an improvement over the old DMR it still struggles as is definitely a tier below the other scopes in this lineup.

    While Schmidt & Bender did not invent the Ultra Short their own Ultra Short series basically represents the pinnacle of this design and is what all the other scopes will be measured by, of course, the price also reflects this being the most expensive of the bunch (pricing is TBD on the Kahles and ZCO). And while S&B has numerous reticle designs they haven't had any with .2 mil hash except for their H2CMR which some are not fond of. In 2018 two new reticles should appear in the US 3-20x50 scope with Schmidt's own LRR-Mil and FinnAccuracy's new MSR2 which will definitely be hot sellers. Schmidt is known for having excellent parallax and eyebox and the clarity and contrast of the image is one of the best in the industry. The 3-20x50 with MSR2 reticle may become one of my next scopes; however, I am going to wait for more info on pricing for the Kahles and ZCO before making that decision.

    March may have been one of the first to market with their 3-24x42 but have not done much since. Offering their 3-24x52 was a definite plus as many felt the 42mm was limited in low light and had a pretty finicky eyebox. That being said, March has sat on the same reticle designs for a number of years now and only offering the FML-T1 as a new design but not thinning up the reticle has kept this scope from having a home on one of my rifles. A newer/thinner reticle design from them with .2 mil hash marks would definitely put them back on my list, in fact, it may still be my favorite Ultra Short design simply because I love lighter weight scopes and the fact that it goes out to 24x is another plus. Sure it has its issues being an 8x design, but the simple fact it is an 8x design at just over 24oz makes it one of my favorites.

    Here is a full spec sheet for all the latest Ultra Short scopes available in 2018, keeping in mind that I am defining an "Ultra Short" design as a scope that has a minimum top magnification of 18x and the scope itself is under 14" in length:

    UltraShort_Comparison.jpg
     
    Not too long ago if you wanted a higher magnification scope in a short package there were very few options, but with the introduction of 4 new scopes to this niche field of sport optics in 2018 the game has changed considerably. Ever since I got my first Bushnell ET DMR and mounted it to my LMT MWS rig I quickly realized the benefits and aesthetics of "short" scopes and now that covert style rigs are popping up all over the need continues to grow. For a full spec list of both old and new, see the bottom of this post.

    I'm going to classify an "Ultra Short" scope as one being under 14" in length while offering 18x or higher magnification. Of newer scope designs I believe March was the first to market with their 3-24x42 which was followed by Bushnell DMR 3.5-21x50 and Leupold with their Mark 6 3-18x44 and then Schmidt & Bender entered the foray with their "Ultra Short" series which started with the 5-20 and a 3-20 quickly followed. I may have my order wrong but I think this is fairly accurate. Regardless, for the last several years these have been the only options. But over the past month or so something drastic has happened with the introduction of 4 brand new scope designs, two of which are coming from manufacturers who've never offered any scopes in this range:
    • EOTech Super Short Vudu 5-25x50 (11.2" and 29.5oz according to Facebook info)
    • Leupold Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44 (12.06" and 26oz)
    • Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 (12.32" and 32.59oz)
    • ZCO ZC420 4-20x50 (12.8" and 34.8oz)
    And last year Sig introduced their own Ultra Short versions with:
    • Sig Tango 6 3-18x44 (37.6oz and 12.4")
    • Sig Tango 6 4-24x50 (40oz and 13.6")
    One of my biggest gripes with Schmidt has been their lack of .2 mil hash reticles and that has changed with the announcement of the LRR-Mil (announced last year but finally making its way to market in 2018) and the newly announced MSR2 reticle from FinnAccuraccy (which should also be available in 2018). I have a similar gripe with March, while the FML-1 and FML-T1 reticles are more to my liking than what Schmidt offers these reticles are too thick for my preference above 20x, again it's purely personal preference but also the reason why I sold my March 3-24x52 which was an amazing scope in almost all other areas.

    The big unknowns is how will all these scopes perform and while looking through them at SHOT will give an idea, they really need to get into some competent shooters hands for a real world review as looking at the exit sign across the hall and spinning the turrets a few times can only tell you so much.

    Leupold has hopefully fixed some of the woes of their Mark 6 3-18x44 with their new Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44; however, with it's 35mm tube it is a bit of an odd duck, but if the specs prove true they could finally have a winner with this one.

    EOTech is brand new to high magnification optics having introduced their Vudu series last year, but none of those came close to being "short" so the announcement of their super short 5-25x50 comes as a huge surprise and with the lowest MSRP of the bunch could be a game changer if they got the optics and mechanics right. No specs have been provided as yet so looking forward to that, but a facebook post apparently by an EOTech rep said the weight of this scope will be only 29.5oz. It was rumored last year that the EOTech Vudu line were made by LOW in Japan and if that is the case for the new 5-25x50 then this may become the bargain of the century.

    Kahles is a very well known brand in the long range community; however, their 4x erectors have been a limiting factor and offering only a 3-12 and 6-24 has had its own limitations, but the recently announced K318i 3.5-18x50 being an ultra short design will definitely turn some heads especially if the price is right, I really wished this scope would have been 3.5-18x56 to supplant the Hensoldt 4-16x56 as the short design low light king.

    The final entry is a brand new company called ZCO (Zero Compromise Optic) but has Jeff Huber involved (Nightforce and Kahles) which is a big name to have for a brand new optics company so I have high hopes for their two new offerings but am most excited about their ZC420 4-20x50 design which is an ultra short design. A quick read on their website shows that a lot of R&D went into their scopes and very little compromise was made. This could also mean that their prices will be in the stratosphere similar to Tangent Theta, but here's to hoping they are not. The one detriment to their designs is utilizing a 36mm tube, but if their optics prove to be second to none I think a lot will overlook this.

    Even though Sig has been out for at least a year with their new ultra short designs I'll mention them here as well because I think a lot of folks don't know they have these designs; however, they are the heaviest scopes of the bunch which may deter some shooters as one of the benefits traditionally for the ultra short design was some weight savings.

    Bushnell also introduced their updated DMR IIi 3.5-21x50 at the end of 2016, it represents the cheapest scope of the bunch and while its optics are an improvement over the old DMR it still struggles as is definitely a tier below the other scopes in this lineup.

    While Schmidt & Bender did not invent the Ultra Short their own Ultra Short series basically represents the pinnacle of this design and is what all the other scopes will be measured by, of course, the price also reflects this being the most expensive of the bunch (pricing is TBD on the Kahles and ZCO). And while S&B has numerous reticle designs they haven't had any with .2 mil hash except for their H2CMR which some are not fond of. In 2018 two new reticles should appear in the US 3-20x50 scope with Schmidt's own LRR-Mil and FinnAccuracy's new MSR2 which will definitely be hot sellers. Schmidt is known for having excellent parallax and eyebox and the clarity and contrast of the image is one of the best in the industry. The 3-20x50 with MSR2 reticle may become one of my next scopes; however, I am going to wait for more info on pricing for the Kahles and ZCO before making that decision.

    March may have been one of the first to market with their 3-24x42 but have not done much since. Offering their 3-24x52 was a definite plus as many felt the 42mm was limited in low light and had a pretty finicky eyebox. That being said, March has sat on the same reticle designs for a number of years now and only offering the FML-T1 as a new design but not thinning up the reticle has kept this scope from having a home on one of my rifles. A newer/thinner reticle design from them with .2 mil hash marks would definitely put them back on my list, in fact, it may still be my favorite Ultra Short design simply because I love lighter weight scopes and the fact that it goes out to 24x is another plus. Sure it has its issues being an 8x design, but the simple fact it is an 8x design at just over 24oz makes it one of my favorites.

    Here is a full spec sheet for all the latest Ultra Short scopes available in 2018, keeping in mind that I am defining an "Ultra Short" design as a scope that has a minimum top magnification of 18x and the scope itself is under 14" in length:

    View attachment 6868983
    Have a look at the Vista Outdoor website - under press releases you’ll find the DMR from Bushnell is getting a glass upgrade for 2018 - calling it the Pro version of the DMR - thanks for the excellent info as always - - appreciate your efforts greatly -
     
    Have a look at the Vista Outdoor website - under press releases you’ll find the DMR from Bushnell is getting a glass upgrade for 2018 - calling it the Pro version of the DMR - thanks for the excellent info as always - - appreciate your efforts greatly -

    Thank you outwest, I had hoped Bushnell might introduce a new ERS with upgraded glass, but a DMR II Pro is just what the doctor ordered with an upgrade to the glass, I wonder if it will come with improved low end parallax below 75 yards. The way the News Release is written it sounds like Bushnell will have a DMR II Pro at SHOT, definitely another one to look out for.

    Vista Outdoor News Release said:
    Bushnell’s DMR line of riflescopes are trusted by military, law enforcement and PRS champions – shooters who know every shot counts. The new DMR II Pro Riflescope combines that performance with ED Prime Glass. The best glass Bushnell offers, ED Prime Glass brings out rich color and the finest details, even (and especially) in low light. The DMR II Pro has all the other great features of its predecessor, and remains the only choice when precision is a requirement.

    http://news.vistaoutdoor.com/2018-19-01-Bushnell-Announces-Dozens-of-New-Optics-at-SHOT-Show-2018
     
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    All of the Horus reticles (H59, Tremor 2, Tremor 3 currently offered) have .2mil hash marks.
    Sorry, not a Horus fan so I often forget about that, even most Christmas tree reticles I find too cluttered, personal preference really.
     
    See what Steiner come up with also, they have some models yet to be seen...
    At SHOT or sometime later this year? If they come out with an ultra short design as well that would be pretty amazing. I think after the T5Xi fiasco they have learned their lesson and would not make those same mistakes so I am very curious to see what they are coming out with.
     
    First reports of the ZCO ZC420 are very promising, Frank says "These are amazing". Doug from CameraLandNY visited Leupold and Kahles today and says the new Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44 is "first rate all the way" and "priced better than some that are not giving as much". And about the Kahles K318i Doug says "The Kahles may be THE scope of the show... This is a total home run."
     
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    Heres a video of EOTech talking about their new Vudu 5-25x50 which you can see the tiny thing mounted to a rifle in the background with ARC rings
     
    Anxiously awaiting videos for the Kahles K318i and the Leupy Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44 and would love to hear someones thoughts on the Schmidt & Bender booth with the example they have of the MSR2 and LRR-Mil reticles.
     
    Hope either the ZCO 4-20x50 or Kahles 318i ends up being available to the public below the $3k mark, assuming field reports suggest they make the top tier along with S&B US 3-20. Love more scopes with a 3 or 4 bottom end for hunting applications with wide field of view. Praying someone steps in to try and capture a good chunk of the market by offering some sort of discount or promotion.
     
    Hope either the ZCO 4-20x50 or Kahles 318i ends up being available to the public below the $3k mark, assuming field reports suggest they make the top tier along with S&B US 3-20. Love more scopes with a 3 or 4 bottom end for hunting applications with wide field of view. Praying someone steps in to try and capture a good chunk of the market by offering some sort of discount or promotion.
    Street price this may very well be the case, but nothing has been set in stone yet for either. I too am hoping both these Ultra Shorts come in under $3k from some of the good Hide dealers. Someone had mentioned before that a Group Buy here on the Hide would be nice, can't see Kahles doing that but possibly ZCO... depends on how much Frank can schmooze them this week :)
     
    Still no specs on the EOTech and no indication that anyone even got to look through it at SHOT, I wonder if they are still too early in development.

    Sounds like ZCO had a load of interest at SHOT and the Kahles K318i and Leupold Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44 were also getting their praises. Last year I asked Schmidt to bring out an Ultra Short Ultra Bright (nicknamed the Ultra Ultra) that was a 5-20x56 (what can I say, I'm a low light fiend, I'd take a larger objective over a smaller most days).

    Specs wise all these scopes look great, the big questions will be how well they deliver on optical quality and mechanical reliability, but it sure looks like Schmidt has some serious competition on their hands now.
     
    If there is a group buy of the ZCO for under 3K i'm probably 100% on board. Though friend of mine said he heard 3700$ but considering Nick said they haven't announced a price i'm going to take it with a grain of salt.. I'm assuming MSRP which would put it right there with AMG depending i guess. Idk how MSRP translates to retail. I have a feeling all said and done they're going to be 3K+
     
    Maybe CS Tactical can work a deal with ZCO for a Snipers Hide group buy, would love to see that for sure and would definitely get the scope in the hands of some guys who can spread the good word (assuming the word is good) because the bad word spreads freely around here too ;)
     
    So LRSU says 3400$ Frank said estimates around 3K in the latest podcast. Glass is TT esque. The way he describes it...i still want one even if it's 3K

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    ELR Researcher over at LRH posted this about the mysterious DMR II Pro

    Bushnell - announced the "DMR II Pro 3.5-21x50" scope (10 mil/rev, zero stop, throw lever, and "ED Prime" glass), expected to be available in June.

    First time I've seen any specs so I wonder if Bushnell had one at SHOT? Also, June time-frame, that's not too far away. I wonder why they didn't resurrect the ERS scope, isn't that basically what this is, didn't the ERS have better glass than the original DMR?
     
    Dang, this thread is perfect timing! Was about to buy a S&B Ultra Short for the Remington CSR I just bought, but now it looks like there's some other great choices about to hit the market! I really hope ZCO lives up to the hype!
     
    So information is starting to come in on the Leupold Mark 5 scopes and so far seems to be pretty positive, waiting to hear more on tracking and will obviously be a while before we know more about reliability. Still no new information on the EOTech and no updated specs on their site either. The Kahles K318i is still waiting to ship with no known ETA and the same goes for the ZCO but hopefully those two will be seen by summer time.
     
    Looks like EOTech finally put up some more info on the 5-25, unfortunately no specs but in their image lineup they now have the MD3 reticle displayed and it matches what the leaked photo showed as well. Still waiting on those specs EOTech and also an ETA...

    eotech_vudu_scope_5-25ffp_reticle_1.png
     
    So information is starting to come in on the Leupold Mark 5 scopes and so far seems to be pretty positive, waiting to hear more on tracking and will obviously be a while before we know more about reliability. Still no new information on the EOTech and no updated specs on their site either. The Kahles K318i is still waiting to ship with no known ETA and the same goes for the ZCO but hopefully those two will be seen by summer time.

    The K318i's are looking to ship around May :)
     
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    Looks like EOTech finally put up some more info on the 5-25, unfortunately no specs but in their image lineup they now have the MD3 reticle displayed and it matches what the leaked photo showed as well. Still waiting on those specs EOTech and also an ETA...
    [reticles here]
    Missed a real opportunity to have something between the MD3 and H59 options. MD3 seems better than Leupold's TMR, but both have H59 though the Vudu will be illuminated and cheaper.
     
    If the Kahles K318i weighed in the 26-28oz range, I would have gladly given up the additional top 6x of the March F1 3-24×52 and ordered one for my new lighter weight 6CM build I just finished collecting parts for. As it stands, I opted for the March after years of considering one.
    The Kahles, S&B US 3-20 & 5-20, and the Tangent TT315M were all on the short list. I will be getting a Tangent for my mountain rifle.later this year when the new Gen2 XR comes out however. The March will either stay on the new rifle or go to the mountain rifle when that purchase happens. Then, finally, all of my rifles will have scopes on them, as my Premier Heritage Light Tactical can go back on my varmint rig that my mountain rifle stole it from last elk season.
     
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    What “woes” are you referring to with the Mark6?
     
    I started looking at the Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44 and so far I am really liking this scope. The version I am looking at is the non-illuminated design with H59.

    I did not like H59 very much the first time I saw it and I do not like it now. I think Leupold, just like EOTech is missing out on a good portion of the market that would appreciate a Christmas tree style reticle that does not look like it was designed by a retired mosquito net pioneer.

    I do like the rest of this scope quite a lot though and barring something unanticipated, I think Leupold will sell a ton of these to people who like Horus reticle designs.

    ILya
     
    Had a chance to fondle a Mark5 and was super impressed by the turrets, absolutely positive and good glass too. Might go back and see what it looks like out in real light vs artificial. Looks like Leupold cleaned up the mess the Mark 6 was. This has my interest, but then so does the DMR II Pro lol!
     
    Had a chance to fondle a Mark5 and was super impressed by the turrets, absolutely positive and good glass too. Might go back and see what it looks like out in real light vs artificial. Looks like Leupold cleaned up the mess the Mark 6 was. This has my interest, but then so does the DMR II Pro lol!

    I think a lot of lessons learned on the Mark 6 went into this on. I really like what I am seeing so far.

    ILya
     
    What length is consider as ultra shorts? ..i like my scope 14" or shorter anything over 15" is loooong
     
    What length is consider as ultra shorts? ..i like my scope 14" or shorter anything over 15" is loooong
    I don't think there is an official definition anywhere. Since Schmidt & Bender has coined the term "Ultra Short" and both their designs are 20x and under 14" I have come to define an ultra short scope as any scope with 18x or greater at the top end and under 14" in length. Not sure that answers your question appropriately but it is what I have deduced from the scopes that would fit this category.
     
    If the Kahles K318i weighed in the 26-28oz range, I would have gladly given up the additional top 6x of the March F1 3-24×52 and ordered one for my new lighter weight 6CM build I just finished collecting parts for. As it stands, I opted for the March after years of considering one.
    The Kahles, S&B US 3-20 & 5-20, and the Tangent TT315M were all on the short list. I will be getting a Tangent for my mountain rifle.later this year when the new Gen2 XR comes out however. The March will either stay on the new rifle or go to the mountain rifle when that purchase happens. Then, finally, all of my rifles will have scopes on them, as my Premier Heritage Light Tactical can go back on my varmint rig that my mountain rifle stole it from last elk season.
    I hear you Lance. Still love the 3-24x52 for what it is, just hoping for a better reticle at some point before I invest in another one. I wish the new Kahles and ZCO were lighter, even closer to the S&B US but so far the only one that comes close is the Leupold Mark 5 3.6-18x44 at 26oz. The TMR doesn't excite me and the Horus' are too busy, really hoping they come out with a TMR2 or a simplified Christmas tree reticle like the MR4/SKMR 3
     
    Now that's funny right there! :D

    On a serious note, I think a lot of modern reticle designs are trying to either take it a step too far, or not far enough. That is one of the reasons I like the Gen 2 XR: it does not give me everything I need, but almost everything it gives me, I need, if that makes sense.

    I talked to a bunch of companies about reticle designs and there is ahuge amount of "me too" happening and for a good reason.

    People wants reticles that give them everything, without giving any thought on whether they need everything or if that is everything they need. These are all different concepts.

    Perhaps, I will draw up what I want, write an article around it and see if I can get anyone to bite. With the market being as saturated as it is, perhaps there is a niche there.

    ILya
     
    On a serious note, I think a lot of modern reticle designs are trying to either take it a step too far, or not far enough. That is one of the reasons I like the Gen 2 XR: it does not give me everything I need, but almost everything it gives me, I need, if that makes sense.

    I talked to a bunch of companies about reticle designs and there is ahuge amount of "me too" happening and for a good reason.

    People wants reticles that give them everything, without giving any thought on whether they need everything or if that is everything they need. These are all different concepts.

    Perhaps, I will draw up what I want, write an article around it and see if I can get anyone to bite. With the market being as saturated as it is, perhaps there is a niche there.

    ILya
    That does make sense ILya, I never felt handicapped with the Gen II XR, but then I got the SKMR and really liked what I saw, now I have the MR4 which is one of my favorite Christmas tree designs because its unobtrusive and the EBR7 has really grown on me as well. I'm not sure who pioneered the center dot design, but I do like that so many are coming out now with this feature. For me the first was March with their FMA-1 and then the FML-1 (actually now that I think about it the first was the IOR Valdada 3.5-18x50 with Xtreme reticle but I did not have that scope for long), then it was the SKMR and now the MR4. I have one of the original AMG's but I like that the new reticle (EBR-7B) has a center dot.

    If you'd like, sketch up what you're thinking and I can put it in CAD unless you have a design tool for that. I designed my own reticle a couple years ago and still think it would be a great design especially for high magnification scopes.
     
    I am not sure exactly who it was, but the first I saw a mrad based reticle with a center dot for aiming was probably John Boyette's design for the 3-18x42 IOR. I think it was called the A5 version of MP-8 or something along those lines.

    I would not be surprised if there were others though.

    ILya
     
    Thanks so much for that chart!

    Anyone have experience with the Vudu?

    Net net, it seems like SB had the best weight/performance factor.
     
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    I've been highly impressed with the 3-20 US I recently picked up. The glass is typically Schmidt and the controls have a distinctly 'German' feel to them. Ran it side by side with my ATACR - neither leave me wanting.

    77331A93-024E-4862-8D55-1561DA8709C7.jpeg



    22BB8B00-0C07-4BB2-B801-FC6DF5BC55BD.jpeg
     
    So I see you are selling Leupold MK5 3x18s and S&B USs in the classifieds. Does that indicate your assessment of them?

    I just bought a SB 5x20 US and am pleasantly surprised by its clarity. I had it side by side with a SB PMII 5x25 this morning and I was surprised how close it was to it's big brother. which has always been the gold standard that I judge other scopes against. When I saw the 5x20 US at SHOT years ago I immediately dismissed bc at the time US's gave up a lot of optical quality. As a Schmidt there was no way I would think their hefty price tag would be justified with compromised optics. I have to say now I feel like the money I spent was well justified. I like the low profile single turn locking elevation turret, the clarity, and I was surprised the eye box is as good as it is. The offset parallax and windage marks are just icing on the cake.

    You can read my review of the Mark 5 on ILya's site - http://opticsthoughts.com/?p=2296

    I have not done a full review of the US 3-20, but will include my thoughts when I do the review of the Kahles K318i vs ZCO ZC420; however, I will say this, having had both the US 5-20 and the US 3-20 I like the 5-20 better, I would say it edges out the 3-20 a wee bit optically and I like the smaller package, the US 3-20 is almost getting into full size scope length and that detracts a bit for me. That being said, the 3-20 has the widest magnification range of any ultra short design so the fact that they packed such performance into that package is pretty stunning, it's just not the scope for me. The other "short" design that really surprised me was the Tract Toric 4-20x50, my full review of this scope is about to go up on opticsthoughts.com if I can catch a breath from my "regular" job.

    Here is the bunch I had together a short while ago... Left to right, S&B Ultra Short 3-20x50, Tract Toric 4-20x50, Kahles K318i and Leupold Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44

    Ultra_Shorts_002.jpg
     
    Americans, by nature, demand bigger.

    Bigger cars.
    Bigger guns.
    Bigger barrels.
    Bigger breasts.
    Much bigger breasts. Qualifiying that, much bigger breasts on our women.

    And yes, bigger scopes.
     
    Great looking setup! Is there a reason you went 3-20us vs 5-20us?

    I didn't need anything super short for this rifle so I took the extra FOV and mounting flexibility of the 3-20. I could also get both at the same price so opted for the slightly better specs of the 3-20
     
    I didn't need anything super short for this rifle so I took the extra FOV and mounting flexibility of the 3-20. I could also get both at the same price so opted for the slightly better specs of the 3-20

    Yeah.
    In Australia at the moment the 3-20 US is a really good deal while the 5-20 is limited to the 16mil/p4f combo version and costs more.
    Shame because I think no matter which way you look at it the 3-20 US is ugly :p
    uglyness considered I still purchased one.
     
    This is a timely thread for me. I'll be looking around at "compact" scopes in the next month or so as I weigh my decision.

    I had a 3-20 US with MSR on my SR-25 APR (20" .308).

    I really liked the turrets and the zero stop was easy to set. I found the eyebox a bit picky at 20x, but I think that is unavoidable on any scope unless it had a 100mm objective once you get 18+.

    However, I found the reticle to just be "meh". I've been eyeballing these open center, small dot with .2 mil horizontal reticles for some time. My local range only goes out to 500. I like to dial elevation and then hold for wind, and it gets windy out here frequently.

    When the MSR2 was announced I was intrigued and then saw that reticle swaps would cost 700+. I decided to sell my existing scope (which I did, here on the PX) because it would possibly be more economical to do that and buy the new version then to pay for the swap.

    I haven't had much time for shooting so being scopeless on this gun hasn't been an issue and I'm probably still going to wait and see if the MSR2 3-20s show up and I can see some 20x through scope pics. The problem is, I see the Mil-C available on the 4-16 ATACR now. It is a little more compact and is exactly the kind of reticle I've always wanted to try. However, I don't like the rotating eyepiece and of course the glass would be a huge downgrade to what I had previously though that would not matter in real use.

    I'll admit, you've got me taking a look at the Mark 5 and k318i now. I don't like that the Mark 5 has a 35mm tube (I already have a Spuhr 34mm mount on this gun) and with the Mark 6 getting rave reviews initially before the issues become more widely known I think I'll take a wait and see approach. Same for Kahles---I once bought a k312i and sent it to KSE for a spin on the humbler and this was the result:



    He told me every Kahles he ever ran through there had that parallax issue. That leads me to believe there is a design flaw with that style of parallax adjustment. In all fairness it may have been addressed in the new line of scopes (k318 k525) but since they retained the top parallax adjustment I know I won't feel comfortable pulling the trigger on one until some are tested by a respected member of the community who isn't selling scopes or sponsored by Kahles--someone truly independent. If the k318 is issue free man would that be the ticket, the size, mag range, and the non-tree SKMR all intrigue me greatly. My brief stint with that k312 I felt the glass was every bit the equal of my S&B but I don't have an eye for CA like some of you guys do.

    I've even been looking at the S&B "ultra brights". Only the 3-12x54 is what I'd call compact though with the 4-16 being on the large size. The MSR2 (which I've still yet to see a detailed diagram of to determine what the horizontal has arrangement is) doesn't appear to be on the horizon for either of those either. I'll be keeping an eye on these 13" or less 10-20x max mag range scopes with interest, that's for sure.

    I was really surprised to see you say you thought the 5-20 US edged out the 3-20 optically. I had always read opposite impressions. I've never looked through the 5-20 and it did have an intriguing size but also presented mounting issues.