2024 CMP Games 1954-1976 Vintage Sniper Rules

[anon]

The CMP has added eligible rifles for the Vintage Sniper matches, to include wood stocked M40's.

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2024-CMP-Games-Rules.pdf They are down around page 66.

 

[Random Guy]

Yep, I'll be trying that match in 2024 w/ my M40 replica...

 

[TorF]

Wonder why the Steyr SSG69 is not listed in the 54 - 76 class.

 

[enichols]

Wonder why the Steyr SSG69 is not listed in the 54 - 76 class.

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Agreed - pretty lame that it is not listed.

They do have this wording re: non-listed rifles:

"Anyone who wishes to use a sniper rifle or scope in a CMP-sanctioned Vintage
Sniper Rifle Match that is not listed in Table 8 or Table 9 and who feels it
complies with the spirit and intent of these rules may contact CMP
Competitions ([email protected], 419-635-2141, ext. 714/729) and
request a ruling on whether it is an eligible rifle or scope. Documentation
regarding the rifle or scope and its use for military sniper purposes must be
provided with every request. "

 

[camocorvette]

Agreed - pretty lame that it is not listed.

They do have this wording re: non-listed rifles:

"Anyone who wishes to use a sniper rifle or scope in a CMP-sanctioned Vintage
Sniper Rifle Match that is not listed in Table 8 or Table 9 and who feels it
complies with the spirit and intent of these rules may contact CMP
Competitions ([email protected], 419-635-2141, ext. 714/729) and
request a ruling on whether it is an eligible rifle or scope. Documentation
regarding the rifle or scope and its use for military sniper purposes must be
provided with every request. "

I think that's pretty reasonable. If you articulate your reasoning you probably have a good chance of getting accepted.

 

[RedBull6]

And only pre-1964 Win 70’s, even though the class goes through 1976?

 

[anon]

And, the M40 is wood stock only but the XM21 gets both wood and fiberglass stocks.

 

[Random Guy]

And only pre-1964 Win 70’s, even though the class goes through 1976?

Yes, as the historical record reflects that in 1965-66 (before the arrival of the M40s), the USMC snipers were using pre-64 Winchesters in Vietnam. (They never used any post-64s as sniper rifles, per the reference books). I think CMP is trying to reflect the historical record, and I have emailed them to consider adding the variable 3-9x40mm scopes, since the 3rd Marine Division bought at least a dozen of those cheap Japanese scopes on Okinawa. Hopefully they will consider that change, since it's well documented. (Source: The One-Shot War (1996) by Peter Senich.

 

[Random Guy]

And, the M40 is wood stock only but the XM21 gets both wood and fiberglass stocks.

Yes, technically speaking, all XM21s were bedded in wood stocks, per the US Amy M14 NM build guide (first released in 1968, and revised in 1970, and 71). The USGI fiberglass stock is way too flimsy and simply can't be bedded properly. Here's the XM21 on display at West Point.

All XM21/M21 rifles used either walnut or birch stocks that were routed for bedding material, as shown below.
One can not glass-bed a USGI fiberglass stock (too thin, no bedding channels), and again, they are too flimsy for accuracy work.

 

[cplnorton]

For the Marines all evidence points to only pre 64 Model 70s. But for the Army this was not the case for the Vietnam War.

Granted there was only a little over 100 total model 70 snipers serving in both branches in Vietnam, but still...

The CMP is not correct on this.

 

[enichols]

I sent them an email to ask about the SSG69 - here is the reply:
"Thank you for reaching out about the new Vintage Sniper class, we are very excited to be able to offer this option to our competitors. The SSG69 has already been brought up and we are in the process of adding it to the list of eligible rifles. I would believe that it will be on the list by the end of the week. We are still doing a little research to make sure that we give the correct guidance in regards to the proper optic for the time period of this rifle.

I would suggest taking a look at the rules next week and see if all of your questions are answered, if not feel free to reach back out to me and we will get you an answer. I also believe that you will have to use the 6 power Kahles scope, as the 10 power does not fit the correct time window."

His reply about the optic is specifically about my rifle, which has a ZF84 10x as opposed to the ZF69/ZFM 6x.
So it looks like the SSG69 will be GTG!

 

[Random Guy]

His reply about the optic is specifically about my rifle, which has a ZF84 10x as opposed to the ZF69/ZFM 6x.
So it looks like the SSG69 will be GTG!

I wrote CMP on Jan 8th re the M70s with 3-9x40mm scopes used in Vietnam, suggesting they include that option, and I also mentioned the following re the SSG-69:

"As as aside in the Foreign Rifle category, one sniper rifle I would respectfully request being included in the CMP match is the somewhat famous Steryr SSG-69 sniper rifle. The SSG-69 was introduced for the Austrian military in 1969, hence the SSG-69 nomenclature. The early rifles had the full 24" barrel. It was the first formal sniper rifle that used a fiberglass stock, and the 5-rd removable magazine was also ground-breaking back in 1969-70 for a bolt action sniper rifle.

From 1969 until the 1980s the typical scope on the SSG-69 was a 6x power Kahles. (At some point in the 1980s-1990s a couple of different fixed 10x scopes were used, but for the purpose of the 1954-1976 era for CMP, only the 6x scope was utilized. So I think a fixed 6x scope with a 1" or 26mm tube should be acceptable on that rifle. Here's some basic info, and I am happy to answer any questions you might have re this humble suggestion."

CMP's response the following day:
"Thank you for the time and effort that you put into your comments, we will surely look into all of you suggestions. We have already taken steps to add the Steyr to the list of rifles, this should show in the rules in the next day or two. The other two suggestions will be discussed as an upgrade to the current rules in the future.

Thanks again, and I look forward to seeing you clean house at the Eastern Games…."

....so they are presumably researching when the 10x scopes came into play on the SSG-69, but I have never read anything about them being used prior to 1976. To the best of my knowledge, they are 1990s era scopes. (Fwiw, I have a Kahles ZF95 10x for a future SSG-69).

 

[Ledzep]

Surprised no ZFK 55 either.