Just noticed on Midways site that these non-existent urban legend bullets are backordered until Feb.11 2011. April 01 might be a better date. Hello Berger 210's.
- Thread starter chooter
- Start date
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Im beginning to see the wisdom of having a second rig in 7mm.
Im beginning to see the wisdom of having a second rig in 7mm.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im beginning to see the wisdom of having a second rig in 7mm. </div></div>
Yeah, you NEED another project rifle to fiddle with.
I have my hands full with ONE.
Midway is historically inaccurate with their BO dates. I'll call Hornady again on Monday and see if there's been an update (read: ANOTHER schedule slip). When I talked to the a couple of weeks ago, they were saying production run end of Nov., ship to dealers middle of Dec. But they've slipped that schedule 2 months in the 2 months I've been inquiring about them.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im beginning to see the wisdom of having a second rig in 7mm. </div></div>
Yeah, you NEED another project rifle to fiddle with.
Midway is historically inaccurate with their BO dates. I'll call Hornady again on Monday and see if there's been an update (read: ANOTHER schedule slip). When I talked to the a couple of weeks ago, they were saying production run end of Nov., ship to dealers middle of Dec. But they've slipped that schedule 2 months in the 2 months I've been inquiring about them.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
That's just it, John. I don't like having rifles around that I don't spend time with. Don't really crave another one on top of what I have.
I'm thinking when it's time to rebarrel, I'll either make the 30-06 into a 280 Rem, or make the 308 into a 7-08.
That's just it, John. I don't like having rifles around that I don't spend time with. Don't really crave another one on top of what I have.
I'm thinking when it's time to rebarrel, I'll either make the 30-06 into a 280 Rem, or make the 308 into a 7-08.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm thinking when it's time to rebarrel, I'll either make the 30-06 into a 280 Rem, or make the 308 into a 7-08. </div></div>
That's funny. The original version of that post I was going to suggest turning the 06 into a 280, but I figured you liked having a fast .30... so how bout a .260 in the SA? I like that even more than the 7-08. Kinda like a 300WM W/O the pain.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm thinking when it's time to rebarrel, I'll either make the 30-06 into a 280 Rem, or make the 308 into a 7-08. </div></div>
That's funny. The original version of that post I was going to suggest turning the 06 into a 280, but I figured you liked having a fast .30... so how bout a .260 in the SA? I like that even more than the 7-08. Kinda like a 300WM W/O the pain.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
260 is good, but I kinda like the longer bbl life of the 7-08, and the bullet selection is pretty good too. Also, since 7mm seems less popular overall, bullet supply might be more consistent.
260 is good, but I kinda like the longer bbl life of the 7-08, and the bullet selection is pretty good too. Also, since 7mm seems less popular overall, bullet supply might be more consistent.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Shane,
How does the 7-08 with 180 Bergers stack up against the 308 or 30-06 with 208's? You should be able to get pretty good velocities, I'd think. Done any research on this yet?
I was very seriously thinking about going to 7WSM earlier this year. I can get DBM that would allow me to load them ridiculously long and still mag. feed. Ballistics was better than the 300WM, too. But the thought of all new brass, bullets, primers, powder, dies, yada yada plus load development for a new cartridge sorta took the wind outa my sails.
John
Shane,
How does the 7-08 with 180 Bergers stack up against the 308 or 30-06 with 208's? You should be able to get pretty good velocities, I'd think. Done any research on this yet?
I was very seriously thinking about going to 7WSM earlier this year. I can get DBM that would allow me to load them ridiculously long and still mag. feed. Ballistics was better than the 300WM, too. But the thought of all new brass, bullets, primers, powder, dies, yada yada plus load development for a new cartridge sorta took the wind outa my sails.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I've only crunched some numbers on Quickload.
A 24" 7-08 looks like it has the potential to start the 162 AMax at 2850 fps, 168 Berger/JLK 2800, 180 Berger/JLK 2700. I'm thinking moly, and RL17 for the propellant.
Those numbers would all fly very well.
I've only crunched some numbers on Quickload.
A 24" 7-08 looks like it has the potential to start the 162 AMax at 2850 fps, 168 Berger/JLK 2800, 180 Berger/JLK 2700. I'm thinking moly, and RL17 for the propellant.
Those numbers would all fly very well.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
A guy I shoot with has a 7mm08.
Not sure on the powder he loads, but with 162AMAX's he is supersonic to 1500 yards at 2700' MSL.
We were debating the 280Rem/7mm Express Rem.
He thinks you can get within 100-ish fps of a 7Mag
A guy I shoot with has a 7mm08.
Not sure on the powder he loads, but with 162AMAX's he is supersonic to 1500 yards at 2700' MSL.
We were debating the 280Rem/7mm Express Rem.
He thinks you can get within 100-ish fps of a 7Mag
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ida83704</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy I shoot with has a 7mm08.
Not sure on the powder he loads, but with 162AMAX's he is supersonic to 1500 yards at 2700' MSL.
We were debating the 280Rem/7mm Express Rem.
He thinks you can get within 100-ish fps of a 7Mag </div></div>
No idea on his MV either. Too lazy to back into it with JBM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ida83704</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy I shoot with has a 7mm08.
Not sure on the powder he loads, but with 162AMAX's he is supersonic to 1500 yards at 2700' MSL.
We were debating the 280Rem/7mm Express Rem.
He thinks you can get within 100-ish fps of a 7Mag </div></div>
No idea on his MV either. Too lazy to back into it with JBM.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ida83704</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy I shoot with has a 7mm08.
Not sure on the powder he loads, but with 162AMAX's he is supersonic to 1500 yards at 2700' MSL.
We were debating the 280Rem/7mm Express Rem.
He thinks you can get within 100-ish fps of a 7Mag </div></div>
I had a 280 for a while. Mild loads of RL22 under 180 Hybrids were still supersonic at 1740yd this summer (85F) at Thunder Valley for me. It's about 1000' ASL, the day was 29.53" Merc. The MV that I have recorded from the chrono that morning says 2800 on the nose.
I pushed the loads a little warmer with RL22 and got a touch over 2900 fps but never had the chance to test them beyond 600yd.
162 Amax's over H4831sc shot bugholes at 2975fps.
All these numbers are from a 28" tube.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ida83704</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy I shoot with has a 7mm08.
Not sure on the powder he loads, but with 162AMAX's he is supersonic to 1500 yards at 2700' MSL.
We were debating the 280Rem/7mm Express Rem.
He thinks you can get within 100-ish fps of a 7Mag </div></div>
I had a 280 for a while. Mild loads of RL22 under 180 Hybrids were still supersonic at 1740yd this summer (85F) at Thunder Valley for me. It's about 1000' ASL, the day was 29.53" Merc. The MV that I have recorded from the chrono that morning says 2800 on the nose.
I pushed the loads a little warmer with RL22 and got a touch over 2900 fps but never had the chance to test them beyond 600yd.
162 Amax's over H4831sc shot bugholes at 2975fps.
All these numbers are from a 28" tube.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
208 AMAX = urban legend. I"ll bet my call of April 01 will be more correct. Bergers are on the way.
208 AMAX = urban legend. I"ll bet my call of April 01 will be more correct. Bergers are on the way.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Since they do exist, and they do shoot well, I'll have to say they are not "urban legends". Getting a hold of some of them right now is tough, as it is everywhere.
Since Berger isn't up to their eyeballs in making bullets for the military like Hornady is (they're probably up to their eyeballs in work just not with Gov't contracts maybe) they have a window where they can finally make some extra bullets for the shooting public.
I guess it doesn't really matter if you cut them some slack or not. These will be selling big time for them again once they get a bunch more of them made.
Since they do exist, and they do shoot well, I'll have to say they are not "urban legends". Getting a hold of some of them right now is tough, as it is everywhere.
Since Berger isn't up to their eyeballs in making bullets for the military like Hornady is (they're probably up to their eyeballs in work just not with Gov't contracts maybe) they have a window where they can finally make some extra bullets for the shooting public.
I guess it doesn't really matter if you cut them some slack or not. These will be selling big time for them again once they get a bunch more of them made.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
If Berger were *REALLY* smart (Are they listening?) they would cut prices on 210 VLD's to set the hook for ex-Hornady customers. (I'm about ready to be an ex-Hornady customer) I'd buy the damn things if they weren't so expensive. JLK's are no more expensive but have a reason to be. Berger makes WAY to many bullets to charge so much. And THEN there are the 210 SMK's. What are THOSE made of?
John
If Berger were *REALLY* smart (Are they listening?) they would cut prices on 210 VLD's to set the hook for ex-Hornady customers. (I'm about ready to be an ex-Hornady customer) I'd buy the damn things if they weren't so expensive. JLK's are no more expensive but have a reason to be. Berger makes WAY to many bullets to charge so much. And THEN there are the 210 SMK's. What are THOSE made of?
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I think I'll switch over to the 220 SMK and call it good.Available and affordable.Anything they can't handle the 375CT will.
I think I'll switch over to the 220 SMK and call it good.Available and affordable.Anything they can't handle the 375CT will.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
The 220smks are only 50 to a box so I'm not so sure how affordable they really are.
The 220smks are only 50 to a box so I'm not so sure how affordable they really are.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
220 SMKs are 100 per box, or 500 per box.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1482403505
220 SMKs are 100 per box, or 500 per box.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1482403505
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 220smks are only 50 to a box so I'm not so sure how affordable they really are. </div></div>
The <span style="font-weight: bold">210 SMK's</span> are 50/box. And must be made of Unobtainium with crossdrilled titanium/magnesium support members to improve cooling to justify their price.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 220smks are only 50 to a box so I'm not so sure how affordable they really are. </div></div>
The <span style="font-weight: bold">210 SMK's</span> are 50/box. And must be made of Unobtainium with crossdrilled titanium/magnesium support members to improve cooling to justify their price.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Geebus. At the price of these bullets, you would think they'd ramp up production to meet demand!
Geebus. At the price of these bullets, you would think they'd ramp up production to meet demand!
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">220 SMKs are 100 per box, or 500 per box.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1482403505</div></div>
Unfortunately, marketing is changing with Sierra. They always used to be good with the 100 count boxes. They are now going to the 50 bullet count in many of the heavier bullets.
Here's the 210's.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2235
220's are being sold in 100 count, but that is soon to change.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2240
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">220 SMKs are 100 per box, or 500 per box.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1482403505</div></div>
Unfortunately, marketing is changing with Sierra. They always used to be good with the 100 count boxes. They are now going to the 50 bullet count in many of the heavier bullets.
Here's the 210's.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2235
220's are being sold in 100 count, but that is soon to change.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=item&stock_num=2240
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I am frankly betting that the alleged "production problems" reported by Hornady will turn out to be some kind of sunshine-up-our-asses story about why, when they finally do become available again, they will be noticeably more expensive. Some kind of crap like "we had to re-tool" or "our equipment broke down and we had to replace the blah blah blah" or "our material costs went up because of China" or some other ridiculous nonsense. Call me cynical.
As I have never been able to start using the 208 Amaxes I have started using Berger 210 VLDs, am doing load devel right now, and am very happy with the results so far. Trying them at 1,000 soon. Once I've done devel with the Bergers I will stick with them and Hornady can just miss me.
I note with interest that the 178 Amaxes appear to have...reappeared, after being unavailable for quite some time.
I am frankly betting that the alleged "production problems" reported by Hornady will turn out to be some kind of sunshine-up-our-asses story about why, when they finally do become available again, they will be noticeably more expensive. Some kind of crap like "we had to re-tool" or "our equipment broke down and we had to replace the blah blah blah" or "our material costs went up because of China" or some other ridiculous nonsense. Call me cynical.
As I have never been able to start using the 208 Amaxes I have started using Berger 210 VLDs, am doing load devel right now, and am very happy with the results so far. Trying them at 1,000 soon. Once I've done devel with the Bergers I will stick with them and Hornady can just miss me.
I note with interest that the 178 Amaxes appear to have...reappeared, after being unavailable for quite some time.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
If Hornady raises prices on the 208, they will lose my business.
I wish Nosler would get deeper into the match business. Their 77's are the least expensive and were the most consistent of the 3 major .223 heavies for me.
John
If Hornady raises prices on the 208, they will lose my business.
I wish Nosler would get deeper into the match business. Their 77's are the least expensive and were the most consistent of the 3 major .223 heavies for me.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I have 400 of the 208 A-max's I can let go, if anyone is in dire straights for them. They are all the same lot.
$32 per box, plus shipping. Please email me.
I have 400 of the 208 A-max's I can let go, if anyone is in dire straights for them. They are all the same lot.
$32 per box, plus shipping. Please email me.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Shot the Bergers at 1,000, very very pleased with the results. Miserable conditions, 36 degrees F, according to the weather people 15mph gusting to 25; conditions on the range were worse (more due to tree line and channeling); swishy. Shooting between gusts as best I could, for me the average wind differential was at least 40-45", usually left to right but sometimes right to left <span style="font-style: italic">or none</span>. First shot with a guessed (no chrono) velocity-based elevation with some holdoff left put me in the 7 ring at 4 o'clock. Shot it again with more holdoff, shot was an 8 at 6 o'clock. Came up 1.25 minutes (Temperature!), held a little high, the rest (25 more) were strung left to right but were mostly 8's or better, including 2 tens and an X. I'm still learning the wind. Yanked two shots elevation-wise. The wind was partly in our faces, and it's interesting to watch the wind condition changes downrange move towards you. The pit flag stiffens, and a few seconds later you get a blast in your face. God only knows what a bullet would be doing in its 1.5 second flight downrange.....
As the significant wind condition was wind left to right most of the time it was more effective to wait for that condition than it was to wait for the wind to fall off. This notion of watching the wind with the left eye and staying on target with the right eye is going to take a lot of practice. Overcast most of the time I was shooting, no perceptible mirage. Spent some time watching junk blow across the range. At the firing points, unattended chairs and even spotting scopes were blowing over in the wind.
I say I'm pleased with the results. Some of the guys shooting .308s had trouble staying in the scoring rings. Really really bad conditions. I can't wait to shoot this bullet in measly 10mph winds. This session also confirmed my choice to shoot a .300 vice .308.
Shot the Bergers at 1,000, very very pleased with the results. Miserable conditions, 36 degrees F, according to the weather people 15mph gusting to 25; conditions on the range were worse (more due to tree line and channeling); swishy. Shooting between gusts as best I could, for me the average wind differential was at least 40-45", usually left to right but sometimes right to left <span style="font-style: italic">or none</span>. First shot with a guessed (no chrono) velocity-based elevation with some holdoff left put me in the 7 ring at 4 o'clock. Shot it again with more holdoff, shot was an 8 at 6 o'clock. Came up 1.25 minutes (Temperature!), held a little high, the rest (25 more) were strung left to right but were mostly 8's or better, including 2 tens and an X. I'm still learning the wind. Yanked two shots elevation-wise. The wind was partly in our faces, and it's interesting to watch the wind condition changes downrange move towards you. The pit flag stiffens, and a few seconds later you get a blast in your face. God only knows what a bullet would be doing in its 1.5 second flight downrange.....
As the significant wind condition was wind left to right most of the time it was more effective to wait for that condition than it was to wait for the wind to fall off. This notion of watching the wind with the left eye and staying on target with the right eye is going to take a lot of practice. Overcast most of the time I was shooting, no perceptible mirage. Spent some time watching junk blow across the range. At the firing points, unattended chairs and even spotting scopes were blowing over in the wind.
I say I'm pleased with the results. Some of the guys shooting .308s had trouble staying in the scoring rings. Really really bad conditions. I can't wait to shoot this bullet in measly 10mph winds. This session also confirmed my choice to shoot a .300 vice .308.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am frankly betting that the alleged "production problems" reported by Hornady will turn out to be some kind of sunshine-up-our-asses story about why, when they finally do become available again, they will be noticeably more expensive. Some kind of crap like "we had to re-tool" or "our equipment broke down and we had to replace the blah blah blah" or "our material costs went up because of China" or some other ridiculous nonsense. Call me cynical.
As I have never been able to start using the 208 Amaxes I have started using Berger 210 VLDs, am doing load devel right now, and am very happy with the results so far. Trying them at 1,000 soon. Once I've done devel with the Bergers I will stick with them and Hornady can just miss me.
I note with interest that the 178 Amaxes appear to have...reappeared, after being unavailable for quite some time.</div></div>
Yes you are cynical. No secret plans or plots. Just business and production runs. That's why the 178s have reappeared. They were produced on a production line. Not mystically pulled out of thin air.
It's easy to sit behind the computer not knowing anything about how Hornady does business and come up with all these conspiracy theories but like most every conspiracy theory it is once again wrong.
I swear sometimes you guys think way too much about these things. Not everyone is out to get you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am frankly betting that the alleged "production problems" reported by Hornady will turn out to be some kind of sunshine-up-our-asses story about why, when they finally do become available again, they will be noticeably more expensive. Some kind of crap like "we had to re-tool" or "our equipment broke down and we had to replace the blah blah blah" or "our material costs went up because of China" or some other ridiculous nonsense. Call me cynical.
As I have never been able to start using the 208 Amaxes I have started using Berger 210 VLDs, am doing load devel right now, and am very happy with the results so far. Trying them at 1,000 soon. Once I've done devel with the Bergers I will stick with them and Hornady can just miss me.
I note with interest that the 178 Amaxes appear to have...reappeared, after being unavailable for quite some time.</div></div>
Yes you are cynical. No secret plans or plots. Just business and production runs. That's why the 178s have reappeared. They were produced on a production line. Not mystically pulled out of thin air.
It's easy to sit behind the computer not knowing anything about how Hornady does business and come up with all these conspiracy theories but like most every conspiracy theory it is once again wrong.
I swear sometimes you guys think way too much about these things. Not everyone is out to get you.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Rob,
You're a little naive I think. You're gonna have to work on that paranoia a bit! But remember, it's NOT paranoia if they ARE out to get you. 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say I'm pleased with the results. Some of the guys shooting .308s had trouble staying in the scoring rings. Really really bad conditions. I can't wait to shoot this bullet in measly 10mph winds. This session also confirmed my choice to shoot a .300 vice .308. </div></div>
I had the opportunity to shoot with a bunch of guys with .308's in August at a ranch out on the east side. Steel targets set up in coulees from 150-1900 yds. The wind was never under 10 and as high as 20-25 at times, switching directions in and out of side-coulees. Honestly, the 300 with 208's was almost like a laser. The poor guys with 308's could watch their trace corkscrew all over the place and consistent hits past 700 yds were really tough, whereas the 300 was almost always a first round hit and never more than 2nd.
It would have been interesting to see how much better the .308's performed if they'd been shooting 208's instead of 168's and 175's. I know velocity is a big part, but that bullet seems almost magical in the wind.
John
Rob,
You're a little naive I think.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say I'm pleased with the results. Some of the guys shooting .308s had trouble staying in the scoring rings. Really really bad conditions. I can't wait to shoot this bullet in measly 10mph winds. This session also confirmed my choice to shoot a .300 vice .308. </div></div>
I had the opportunity to shoot with a bunch of guys with .308's in August at a ranch out on the east side. Steel targets set up in coulees from 150-1900 yds. The wind was never under 10 and as high as 20-25 at times, switching directions in and out of side-coulees. Honestly, the 300 with 208's was almost like a laser. The poor guys with 308's could watch their trace corkscrew all over the place and consistent hits past 700 yds were really tough, whereas the 300 was almost always a first round hit and never more than 2nd.
It would have been interesting to see how much better the .308's performed if they'd been shooting 208's instead of 168's and 175's. I know velocity is a big part, but that bullet seems almost magical in the wind.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
In the 308, the handloaded 208s save a bunch of drift as compared to 168/175 SMK at FGMM velocities. I shot a few hundred of the 168 Noslers a few years back, they drifted a lot even handloaded to 2800 fps.
1000 yard 10 mph full value, in local atmo,
208 AMax 2900 fps, 49"
208 AMax 2600 fps, 58"
175 SMK 2600 fps, 84"
168 SMK 2650 fps, 92"
In the 308, the handloaded 208s save a bunch of drift as compared to 168/175 SMK at FGMM velocities. I shot a few hundred of the 168 Noslers a few years back, they drifted a lot even handloaded to 2800 fps.
1000 yard 10 mph full value, in local atmo,
208 AMax 2900 fps, 49"
208 AMax 2600 fps, 58"
175 SMK 2600 fps, 84"
168 SMK 2650 fps, 92"
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob,
You're a little naive I think. You're gonna have to work on that paranoia a bit! But remember, it's NOT paranoia if they ARE out to get you.
</div></div>
Yeah that's it. I'm naive LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rob,
You're a little naive I think.
</div></div>
Yeah that's it. I'm naive LOL
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
2-3X the holds would be right on for 20-25 mph f/v conditions.
2-3X the holds would be right on for 20-25 mph f/v conditions.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am frankly betting that the alleged "production problems" reported by Hornady will turn out to be some kind of sunshine-up-our-asses story about why, when they finally do become available again, they will be noticeably more expensive. Some kind of crap like "we had to re-tool" or "our equipment broke down and we had to replace the blah blah blah" or "our material costs went up because of China" or some other ridiculous nonsense. Call me cynical.
As I have never been able to start using the 208 Amaxes I have started using Berger 210 VLDs, am doing load devel right now, and am very happy with the results so far. Trying them at 1,000 soon. Once I've done devel with the Bergers I will stick with them and Hornady can just miss me.
I note with interest that the 178 Amaxes appear to have...reappeared, after being unavailable for quite some time.</div></div>
Yes you are cynical. No secret plans or plots. Just business and production runs. That's why the 178s have reappeared. They were produced on a production line. Not mystically pulled out of thin air.
It's easy to sit behind the computer not knowing anything about how Hornady does business and come up with all these conspiracy theories but like most every conspiracy theory it is once again wrong.
I swear sometimes you guys think way too much about these things. Not everyone is out to get you. </div></div>
Saving a link to this thread, when the 208s reappear and have been available for 4 months at the old price I will post a retraction: "I was wrong, Hornady didn't try to screw us on the 208 Amaxes."
That is, if you will also agree to post a retraction should those conditions not be met, to wit:
"Hornady is trying to screw you on the 208 Amaxes."
Does that work for you?
In any event, owing to Hornadys demonstrated inability to meet consumer demand in a soft economy, I've started with the Bergers and like them, so I am sticking with them.
Can you say "opportunity cost"? I knew you could.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am frankly betting that the alleged "production problems" reported by Hornady will turn out to be some kind of sunshine-up-our-asses story about why, when they finally do become available again, they will be noticeably more expensive. Some kind of crap like "we had to re-tool" or "our equipment broke down and we had to replace the blah blah blah" or "our material costs went up because of China" or some other ridiculous nonsense. Call me cynical.
As I have never been able to start using the 208 Amaxes I have started using Berger 210 VLDs, am doing load devel right now, and am very happy with the results so far. Trying them at 1,000 soon. Once I've done devel with the Bergers I will stick with them and Hornady can just miss me.
I note with interest that the 178 Amaxes appear to have...reappeared, after being unavailable for quite some time.</div></div>
Yes you are cynical. No secret plans or plots. Just business and production runs. That's why the 178s have reappeared. They were produced on a production line. Not mystically pulled out of thin air.
It's easy to sit behind the computer not knowing anything about how Hornady does business and come up with all these conspiracy theories but like most every conspiracy theory it is once again wrong.
I swear sometimes you guys think way too much about these things. Not everyone is out to get you. </div></div>
Saving a link to this thread, when the 208s reappear and have been available for 4 months at the old price I will post a retraction: "I was wrong, Hornady didn't try to screw us on the 208 Amaxes."
That is, if you will also agree to post a retraction should those conditions not be met, to wit:
"Hornady is trying to screw you on the 208 Amaxes."
Does that work for you?
In any event, owing to Hornadys demonstrated inability to meet consumer demand in a soft economy, I've started with the Bergers and like them, so I am sticking with them.
Can you say "opportunity cost"? I knew you could.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I'm not saying that prices don't go up. That's a part of life but the reason they are not available is not because they are being held back to raise the prices just to screw the public. Hornady doesn't play that way. It should be evident from their having low prices on their bullets now compared to other makers. They give the public great products at affordable prices and will continue to do so.
As for a soft economy, maybe for everything else but not for ammunition. Everything is flying off the pallets as fast as they can make it and they make it plenty fast. It just goes to show how good of a product that they have. They are continuing to upgrade and try to get them out as fast as they can.
Glad you like your Bergers. Leaves more 208s for the rest of us.
Opportunity cost? Hardly. There you go being cynical again.
I'm not saying that prices don't go up. That's a part of life but the reason they are not available is not because they are being held back to raise the prices just to screw the public. Hornady doesn't play that way. It should be evident from their having low prices on their bullets now compared to other makers. They give the public great products at affordable prices and will continue to do so.
As for a soft economy, maybe for everything else but not for ammunition. Everything is flying off the pallets as fast as they can make it and they make it plenty fast. It just goes to show how good of a product that they have. They are continuing to upgrade and try to get them out as fast as they can.
Glad you like your Bergers. Leaves more 208s for the rest of us.
Opportunity cost? Hardly. There you go being cynical again.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
I was joking with Rob earlier in the thread about conspiracies because it would seem that there is a "conspiracy" behind everything these days. But as Tony and Rob have both stated, big changes happening at Hornady. Lots of new building and new products, all of which can introduce some level of chaos and unexpected "opportunities". *Just* the rollout of the new BTHP's could have been enough to upset some people's applecart, but then there's new powders, loaded ammo...
Yes,it frustrates me when a company provides anything less than perfect service, but that's pretty much my expectation of life, and I'm disappointed a lot. To be told over and over different dates for production tells me that they're doing *something* wrong *somewhere*, but is that really a shock? How many of us have worked for perfect companies?
This will all flesh out in time and then we'll at least know what we're dealing with.
John
I was joking with Rob earlier in the thread about conspiracies because it would seem that there is a "conspiracy" behind everything these days. But as Tony and Rob have both stated, big changes happening at Hornady. Lots of new building and new products, all of which can introduce some level of chaos and unexpected "opportunities". *Just* the rollout of the new BTHP's could have been enough to upset some people's applecart, but then there's new powders, loaded ammo...
Yes,it frustrates me when a company provides anything less than perfect service, but that's pretty much my expectation of life, and I'm disappointed a lot. To be told over and over different dates for production tells me that they're doing *something* wrong *somewhere*, but is that really a shock? How many of us have worked for perfect companies?
This will all flesh out in time and then we'll at least know what we're dealing with.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Any idea what's the BC on the Hornady 208 BTHP?
I can find the bullet on their site, but no info on BC other than "Best ballistic coefficient possible."
Which should be 1.0, but I'll be really really happy with something in the 8's. ;-)
Thanks,
--Fargo007
Any idea what's the BC on the Hornady 208 BTHP?
I can find the bullet on their site, but no info on BC other than "Best ballistic coefficient possible."
Which should be 1.0, but I'll be really really happy with something in the 8's. ;-)
Thanks,
--Fargo007
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Fargo,
There are so many different threads concerning Hornady, 208's and the new BTHP's, I can't remember or find where I read it, but seems to me it was south of the 208 Amax. .630-something comes to mind.
Yeah, we were all hoping for more.
John
Fargo,
There are so many different threads concerning Hornady, 208's and the new BTHP's, I can't remember or find where I read it, but seems to me it was south of the 208 Amax. .630-something comes to mind.
Yeah, we were all hoping for more.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can find the bullet on their site, but no info on BC other than "Best ballistic coefficient possible."</div></div>
Wow. I missed that. I guess they think we're all consumer idiots that just read the marketing hype and "believe". The Amax version of the 208 is going to have a better BC, simply due to its PC tip. So was that NOT possible? Perhaps JLK or Berger will have to find the "better" BC, since it would seem that Hornady thinks they've arrived.
I'm guessing that gets removed or rewritten REAL soon.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fargo007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can find the bullet on their site, but no info on BC other than "Best ballistic coefficient possible."</div></div>
Wow. I missed that. I guess they think we're all consumer idiots that just read the marketing hype and "believe". The Amax version of the 208 is going to have a better BC, simply due to its PC tip. So was that NOT possible? Perhaps JLK or Berger will have to find the "better" BC, since it would seem that Hornady thinks they've arrived.
I'm guessing that gets removed or rewritten REAL soon.
John
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you think it will surpass the A-max by that much?
A-max 208 G-1 average is 0.633 . Thats a bug jump unless they will be factory pointed and .5 longer </div></div>
They are going to be factory pointed, however I doubt that they'll be higher than the 208 Amax.
If the 225gr 0.66 value is actually true, and assuming that the 225 adn 208 BTHP's share a shape, the weight difference shows a BC of 0.61 on the 208 BTHP.
ETA: A G1 BC of 1.0 is not the upper limit, BC's in excess of 1.0 are already in play with the heavier 50's and some of the more exotic big bore turned solids in 375, 408, 416.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you think it will surpass the A-max by that much?
A-max 208 G-1 average is 0.633 . Thats a bug jump unless they will be factory pointed and .5 longer </div></div>
They are going to be factory pointed, however I doubt that they'll be higher than the 208 Amax.
If the 225gr 0.66 value is actually true, and assuming that the 225 adn 208 BTHP's share a shape, the weight difference shows a BC of 0.61 on the 208 BTHP.
ETA: A G1 BC of 1.0 is not the upper limit, BC's in excess of 1.0 are already in play with the heavier 50's and some of the more exotic big bore turned solids in 375, 408, 416.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
went here:
http://www.hornady.com/store/Match-newbullets
clicked on the link titled "Product Availability Message from Steve Hornady"
http://www.hornady.com/in-the-news/latest-news/product-availability
"The page you are looking for does not exist
We're sorry, the page you are looking for does not exist. We've recently redesigned our website so some things have been rearranged. Here is a site map to browse in case you are looking for something else:"
And look: the new 208 BTHPs are $42.55 a box. I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
Edit: BTW, I just ordered the last two boxes of 500 Berger 210 Match VLDs that Midway had.
went here:
http://www.hornady.com/store/Match-newbullets
clicked on the link titled "Product Availability Message from Steve Hornady"
http://www.hornady.com/in-the-news/latest-news/product-availability
"The page you are looking for does not exist
We're sorry, the page you are looking for does not exist. We've recently redesigned our website so some things have been rearranged. Here is a site map to browse in case you are looking for something else:"
And look: the new 208 BTHPs are $42.55 a box. I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
Edit: BTW, I just ordered the last two boxes of 500 Berger 210 Match VLDs that Midway had.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And look: the new 208 BTHPs are $42.55 a box. I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
Edit: BTW, I just ordered the last two boxes of 500 Berger 210 Match VLDs that Midway had. </div></div>
That price Hornady is listing it the MSRP, nobody sells bullets for that much. If you look at the price of the MSRP on the 208's it is somewhere north of $40/box as well but we all know that Midway and Grafs will have them in your hands for under $30/box.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWRichmond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And look: the new 208 BTHPs are $42.55 a box. I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
Edit: BTW, I just ordered the last two boxes of 500 Berger 210 Match VLDs that Midway had. </div></div>
That price Hornady is listing it the MSRP, nobody sells bullets for that much. If you look at the price of the MSRP on the 208's it is somewhere north of $40/box as well but we all know that Midway and Grafs will have them in your hands for under $30/box.
Re: 208 AMAX= urban legend
Well, I've got bullets, and more on the way. You guys can wait on Hornady if you want to.
Well, I've got bullets, and more on the way. You guys can wait on Hornady if you want to.
