22 ammo lubrication

[TOP PREDATOR]

i did a little test the other day. ran some cheap 22 rem subsonics ( at 100 yards (which i get an erratic group). then i put some case lube on 10, put some carnuba wax on 10 then shot them. seems that the lube does make the groups better.

question is, does anyone know what the actual lube is? alox bullet lube maybe?

p.s. i weighed the subsonics and put them into lots which helped the groups first off, then the lube improved it more....

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

I got this from the UK Eley site;

Lubricant: Paraffin Wax (Eley Sport)

What it's broke down with I don't know? I expect that's one of those guarded secrets...

 

[mavrick10_2000]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Wolf's Target lube is some seriously slippery stuff. I have to wipe my fingers after loading a 5rd mag.

 

[edgerat]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

it is largely a waste of time to mess with rimfire lube. Eley, Lapua and others have spent millions of dollars perfecting their lubes. heheheheh lube.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

after a little more looking and asking around, i found a whole bunch of lubrication recipes, with none of the manufactures giving up secrets. seems Alox bullet lube is mentioned in almost all of them, with beeswax and even crayons being used. my last experiment led me to believe there is something to it, so doing a little experiment this friday (weather permitting):

1. will use remington subsonics, good at 50, erratic groups through my set up at 100. plus they are cheap and readily available in my area. any improvement that the lube makes will show up quickly.

2. have weighed out and batched to elimanate that factor. at 100 yards will fire 15 unlubed at rounds (as a control), 15 with bowstring wax, 15 with crayon, 15 with alox, and 15 with carnuba wax.

3. object is to see if the cheap stuff can be enhanced to perform better for an economical practice round $3.25 a box rather than $7.00+ a box. i'm not expecting match grade ammo results just an alternative to eating up the good stuff.

4. will measure group size, any difference in bullet drop, possibly fps, and any notable flyers.

 

[TNT]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

If you really want this test to give you any reasonable results, you will need:
1. excellent shooter
2. consistent conditions
3. clean bore, at the very least between each set of different lubes (or you could create a randomized test pattern - key is to eliminate time order effects)
4. a statistician to tell you that you will probably need a lot more than 15 rounds to get statistically significant results

Best of luck though. Let us know what you come up with.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

How about Moly???

Or is the consistency not thick enough?

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

OK guys- You asked, I'll tell my story. I did a lot of work on lubricants while at the AMU. Got a good lead from a cast bullet NRA publication, back in the 70's. Turns out that white lithium grease is virtually impervious to temperature and pressure and works as a really good bullet lubricant. Problem is, it's messy, and the production guys can't figure a way to put it on bullets without it coming off. Less of a problem if you're set up in a back yard shop. I tried it on .375 H&H. Worked. Tried it on .38 spl. Worked. Tried it on .22 LR. REALLY worked.

My application method: Get an Eley box, complete with bullet tray. Take the box top and make some cut-outs so that the top can be used as a "sqeegee", placing just the right amount of white lithium in the bottom of the tray, and therefore on the tips of the bullets, when loaded in the tray. You'll have to experiment to get the right level, but basically to my recollection, it looked like a dab the volume of a BB. I both chrono'd the ammo and ran test groups. Holy cow, did that stuff make a difference. Went from a 10 SD to less than 5. Groups were the tightest I'd ever shot.

I've recently been looking for tubs of white lithium, but can't find any. Maybe the Obama administration banned it or something, knowing I wanted it for bullet making...

 

[sled_mack]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

white lithium grease like you buy in an automotive store?

Seems like this would make a REAL mess out of magazines, no? I can see it working better in a single shot bolt, but the mess factor in my 10/22 is probably real high.

As far as statistical numbers, I think the 15 shot groups will be a decent indicator. If it looks good, more testing is in order. If no difference is noticable, then no point in testing more. My opinion only (been a long time since I've done any statistical work).

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

The same white lithium grease you buy in a parts store. Let me know if you can find "white lithium soap". That would be the ticket.

 

[grunt soldier]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

i would like to see the results of a test like mentioned above

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

i've tried moly with much success on centerfire rounds and everything i handload is molyied. if those other things don't work i'll give the moly a try, however for how much the moly costs and the time to apply it to the cheap rimfire stuff, i'd probably be better off just buying and using the more expensive stuff.

plus the thicker waxy stuff, (according to others) supposed to make a better seal between the lead bullet and the bore to compensate for deformations in the bullet, chamber, whatever else, and reduces leading.

of course there is moly grease, but i'm trying to stay away from greasey residue over everything, the waxy stuff appears to be more managable.

i forgot to add to my last post that i will be cleaning the barrel between different lubes in order to give each one a fair shake.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: grunt soldier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i would like to see the results of a test like mentioned above </div></div>

Sorry dude, I did that test about 10 years ago. I may, just may, still have those groups out in the shop. With wife and kids, I've got more important things to do right now than look for some paper. However, if you want to mess with rimfire, I'd definately suggest trying the white lithium...

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

.....weather isn't cooperating for an objective opinion. will do when the wind and rain stops.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

had a bug up my butt to use less expensive ammo instead of the match stuff for casual shooting, while getting a somewhat comparable point of impact to the match. i used the remington subsonics as they are quite affordable and available in my area plus at 50 yards they have the same point of impact to the wolf and sk match. however at 100 had such erratic groups, couldnt even sight in, which was frustrating. i weighed out the ammo seperated into 2 major lots 51.0 to 51.4 grains and 51.5 to 51.9 grains. (varied between 48.8 grains and 53 grains which can explain the original erratic groups) i used the 51.0 to 51.4 grain lot. this seemed to help develop a group of 4.5" (including noticable flyers). yes a bad group, but much improved over no group at all.

then i added the lube. i used carnuba wax, alox bullet lube, crayon, and bowstring beeswax.

finally got out to test it. shooting conditions: 72 deg. low humidity, occasional less than 3mph breeze from 6:00. sunny. PERFECT! mark II bull barrel, harris bipod, rear bag, 1.5" bullseye at 100 yards. i cleaned the barrel after a lube change, and waited 30 seconds between shots. i also used a chrony to make sure that the flyers where just that and not me pulling a shot. vertical tracking came into play and made a noticable difference.

i'm convinced that i will be lubing the bullets on cheap 22 ammo as the results seem to show an improvement:

UNLUBED(base / control data) 979 fps - excluding 3 noticable flyers it gave me a major group of 3". including 1 of the closer flyers gave an extended group of just under 3.25". all 15 shots were in a 4.5" group. the most dense part of the group measured 2.75"h x 2.5"w comment: (in my mind and paper, the weighing is worth it!) 6 shots within 1.5" bullet drop was averaged between 8" to 10"

CARNUBA WAX - 998 avg fps - excluding 3 noticable flyers it gave me a major group under 2.5". including 1 of the closer flyers gave an extended group of 2.75". all 15 shots, under a 4" group. the most dense part of the group measured 2.5"h x 2.5"w comment: left a drier coating than the rest 7 shots within 1.5"

ALOX BULLET LUBE - 989 avg fps - excluding 3 noticable flyers it gave me a major group under 2.25". including 1 of the closest flyers gave an extended group of just over 2.25". 15 shots were just over 3.75" group.
the most dense part of the group measured under 2"h x 1.5"w comments: seemed to make barrel easier to clean, good stable texture, easy to apply. 10 shots in 1.5"

CRAYON - 1006 avg fps - excluding 4 noticable flyers it gave me a major group of 2.25". including 1 of the closest flyers gave an extended group of 3". 15 shots were just less than 4.25". most dense part of the group measured 2.25"h x 1.75"w. comments: tended to flake off, hard to control application compared to the others, seemed to cause a feeding problem. 7 shots in 1.5"

BOWSTRING BEESWAX - 991 avg fps - excluding 4 flyers it gave me a major group of 2". including 1 of the closest flyers gave an extended group of under 2.25". 15 shots were less than 4". most dense part of the group measured under 2"h x 1.5" w. comments: good stable texture to apply. 9 shots in 1.5"

CONCLUSION: there is something to adding the lube. it did have a noticable effect on group size and increased the fps. if having to rate the lubes applied as far as most predictable, ease of application, and highest % of hits on a 1.5" bull at 100 yards, it's practically a tie between the alox and beeswax, with the alox just nudging out the beeswax.

unlubed bullet drop was averaged between 8" to 10.25" / lubed between 8.25" and 9.75"

by far weighing and lubing the cheaper stuff is not going to take the place of match ammo. but as far as using a lower priced substitute and taking a little time to tweek it seems to be worth spending an hour or so to do a couple hundred. may try some other lubes in the future (parrafin, moly, rooster jacket, apache blue, tallow wax, etc.)

i also concluded i have way too much time on my hands......

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Interesting work. I've got some white lithium for greasing my garand will have to try it on 22a as well as start sorting by wt.

Have used boron nitride both by hand shaking it in a sealed tupperware container for a few mins. with 22s and mixing it in alcohol and spraying on 22s. Had to shoot over 100 before noticed smaller groups.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

i also want to try crossbow rail lube. i've tried pam high temp spray, not too good of results.

i'm a big believer in weight sorting, seems to get rid of most of the flyers, and when shot through a chrony, you can see how the different weights mixed give different fps compared to the weight sorted (more consistant fps) and better groups.

try weight sorting first, then add the lube after the "lots" are established. you'll also notice certain weight sorted lots are more accurate than others

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Used Lithium for couple trips to the range. Easy to get too much and bullets fly unpredictably. Can tell it does work but is no replacement for sorting by wt. HbN works as well but again doesn't replace sorting. Will be interesting to see which have the best results.

 

[softcock]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

asking about moly. I use a mix of 1/4 part Brownells moly slide lube & 3/4 bees wax. Works good for my choice of ammo & barrel. gets my CB shot better also. BUT I also hear that stait Crisco works good too.
.

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i also concluded i have way too much time on my hands...... </div></div>

TOP PREDATOR, 1+. If you didn't do it who would. Who knows you might be onto a better mouse trap.

Using lithium greased bullets and HbN treated bullets somewhere along the way my win 75 now shoots untreated Rem. subs. I previously tried them and left them. Now at 50y the groups are about 1/2 the size. The same happened in my 10/22 after firing over 100 HbN coated bullets. Even uncoated bullets groups better.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

[/quote] Even uncoated bullets groups better.[/quote]

that's probably a residual effect of lube remaining in the barrel.

i wan'ted to go with moly spray on, i tried it in a .22 mag once, but it didn't really show the results i expected.

but the 22lr is another animal. the problem is the extra amount of time and $ spent on moly versus just using match ammo.

i like the idea of mixing dry moly ( like you use for tumbling bullets) with beeswax.

if weather is ok tomorrow, i planned on doing a high velocity ammo test. perhaps i'll bring some wax and moly and see what happens with the rem subsonics

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Either lube left in the barrel although do run a snake through between groups when shooting for best group. Or there is something to David Tubb claim with 22lr running a 100 coated bullets polishes the barrel. I really don't know but glad rem. subs are grouping tighter enough to consider using for all around use.

Picked up some bow wax today to try.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

tried a few more lubes today. as in the original post, i used remington subsonics which group (or lack of one) horribly out of my mkii at 100, decent at 50 though.

after weight sorting and shooting dry got around a 4.5" group just as in the original test.

then applied the lubes:

gun stock wax - by birchwood i believe, was expecting alot as the ingredients said it contains carnuba, silicone, and beeswax.
let down though, seemed to make groups WORSE.

crossbow rail lube - showed an improvement to around 3.25" with 10 shots being within 2"

moly (spray on hoppes no.9) i wanted to do the moly powder used for tumbling my centerfire bullets and mix with bees wax as in a previous suggestion. on the way to the range i stopped at the local gunstore, there was the moly staring me in the face, so i took it as a sign and bought it. glad i did as it came very close to, or surpassing, on what the alox bullet lube application did to the ammo. brought the major group to 1.75" (12 rounds) with three flyers that opened it up to 2.5".

don't forget this is out of ammo that was so erratic that i couldn't get a measurable grouping straight from the box! yes the weight sorting brought it in closer, but the lubes generally did the trick.

as far as ease of application, standing up to handling the ammo, and groups so far i would have to rank what i've tried up to date as:

1. alox bullet lube - easy to apply, not much residue to interfere with magazines, etc. stays on bullets well. not as good groups as the bowstring wax, but the bowstring wax seemed to "clog up the works" less.

2. bowstring wax - seemed to give the best groups but gummed up the bolt abit as it stripped of the next round.

3. the moly spray - seemed to add the most consistancy, and ease to clean the barrel. easy to apply, but messy. no opinion on the adhesion to bullet as i didn't have time to prep (wipe clean) the bullet with acetone or alcohol. obviously the price is going to be a factor, which if i assume a spray can at 10.00 will last 500 rounds (overspray is eating it up)you can tack on another .02 a shot. depending on what your adding it to, it may exceed any savings on the cheaper ammo and you may as well "just get the match ammo"

4. crossbow rail lube - helped keep groups to about 3"

5. crayon - yes crayon, worked well but keeping it from flaking off was a problem

6. also tried silicone spray, pam high temp cooking spray, reloading case lube, gun stock wax, militec, none of which made any substaintial difference and in some cases made groups worse. plus the lubes tended to stay "wet"


best results as far as groups, 1. moly, 2. bowstring wax (beeswax), 3. alox

carnuba wax and crayon seemed about tied

i'm hoping to try parrafin wax, white lithium, or god knows what else. with hunting season upon me, range time will be reduced greatly.

thanks for the suggestions and just for reading my little experiment, hope it helps someone.

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Report from the range today looking up having better groups with white lithium on rem subsonics. Now just using very small amount. I tip my finger with it then rub around the bullet leaving the thinnest possible amount.

Have been testing a bunch of cheap 22s have on hand with the rem subs. Next time at the range will shoot for recorded groups.

 

[Inline6]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

I have heard (read) that Dillon case lube works well. It would also be easy to apply. Never had a chance to try it, SK works to well in my 10/22 to try anything else. At $5.75 a box I don't mind burning it up.

 

[TheArtist]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Just have a gunsmith lap your barrels, get all the rough factory burrs out from the button rifling and then you won't have to wax all your bullets.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Regarding the White lithium, I posted earlier that my best results were using the volume of a BB. Bad info. Let's say it was more along the lines of a half BB. Good to see that others are seeing the same results as I did. Now if we could only figure a way to consistently apply it! Maybe I'll work on that design. I've got an idea...

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inline 6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard (read) that Dillon case lube works well. It would also be easy to apply. Never had a chance to try it, SK works to well in my 10/22 to try anything else. At $5.75 a box I don't mind burning it up.</div></div>

i tried rcbs case lube, didn't show much improvement in my set up. i like the sk, just finding a way to make even cheaper ammo a bit better, within justification of doing it between time and $ spent to make cheap stuff better.

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication


Got a hold of one of Waltz'a resizing dies and quick to turn out a batch of resized wadcutters and resized max hollow points. Shot 25yds in back yard on card table with bipod. Target is a 50ft small bore. Not benchrest work but good groups for me. No doubt made cheap Rem subs shoot better.

The line up is Wolf MT then Wolf resized wadcutter. Rem sub then resized Rem sub wadcutter and a Rem sub resized with max hollow point.

All bullets sorted by wt. and resized with Neal Waltz die to .225. HbN coated to all Rem subs and Wolf MT's one group with HbN and other without any extra lube added. Snake run through barrel once before each group with custom Win.75 (barrel cut to 21 3/4 with target crown).

Rem subs max hp. One of the smallest groups I've every shot with them. Biggest HP I've every seen. Should be deadly.

Rem subs resized .225 wadcutter.

Wolf MT resized .225 wadcutter. HbN coated. Just applied with fingers rolling about after resizing.

resized .225 wadcutter

 

[UNCIVILIZED]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Has anyone thought to try Boseshield T-9? It's a liquid, but drys to a thin waxy film unless you wipe it off while it's still in the liquid phase.
And I can't help but wonder if one were to coat the bore with some if that might help for a short session.

Aside from the above, it's a great corrosion inhibitor. Not even brake cleaner removes all of it after it's applied in 2 coats.

Any thoughts on using .223 match grade slugs in .22LR cases? Obviously they'd be hand feed only, but I've always wondered about trying it. I'm guessing that they'd be more stable in flight assuming the twist rate of the barrel is fast enough to stabilize them. Likely the tricky part would be seating depth/crimp. Thoughts? As this is just a wild daydream on my part.

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

Shot over 100 HbN coated bullets in a old pre warning 10/22 barrel. Afterwards, it shot groups 1/2 the size as before. And shoots one hole groups with stuff like win hv.

David Tubb offers coated bullets to polish barrels. In 22 he advises shooting 100 coated bullets. He doesn't say what they are coated with but he does sell HbN coated bullets and offers to coat yours if you send them.

HbN is man made and doesn't occur in nature and resists high heat. Combustion of boron powder in nitrogen plasma at 5500 C yields ultrafine boron nitride used for industrial lubricants.

No worry about using to coat bullets. There is a risk coating bullets with substances that don't with stand heat in barrels. Some organic material among others can melt and bond with the metal.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

looked at some searches, will be trying some Boeshield T-9, as it seems affordable. looks like sears has it.

did some more searching on the hbn, i would like to try it as it seems your results look good. seems kinda pricey, do you know anyone that sells it in smaller quantity than a pound?

 

[1917]

Re: 22 ammo lubrication

The smallest particle grade of HbN is 70nm which doesn't mean much having bought same from a retailer. HbN sucks water out of the air and who wants to pay for watered down anything. I buy now from a manufacturer and it's pure. Here's my sales thread.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...233#Post1388233