I looking to load 77gr smk's over varget in Hornady 223 cases. I'm not really finding anything but ar-15 loads which are pretty slow. Any info would be appreciated as far as starting and Max loads. Thanks Brent
- Thread starter brentwinkey
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25.6g of Varget is real nice out of my 26 inch bolt gun. 2970 FPS and shoot .3-.4 with 77 TMK or 75 ELD.. it's on the warm side so work up.
Ok thanks I appreciate the starting point. What are you using for a C.O.A.L if you don't mind saying. Thanks Brent
.2.495 with the ELD. I had to grove out the front lip on and accurate mag to run that. Can't remember my OAL with 77TMK off the top of my head.
Uh 25.6g is a very hot load with a 75 ELDM. I've done 75 ELDM/ Varget load development testing foe a 26" .223 barrel review with 4 barrels. Started see pressure at 25g with all the barrels and was over 3070...All 26" barrels from Criterion, Shilen, MW.
I ran up to 26 grains on my 26 inch Hawk hill with only flat primers, no extractor swipe and bolt lift was fine. Like I said you should work up.
Yeah I was thinking that 23.5 to 24gr would be a good starting point.
I have loaded and fired about 5,000 75 A-Max using 25.6 grains of Varget and in Lapua brass. The difference is the factory chamber on my Remington barrel is cut pretty loose and the freebore is loooooong. I agree with you that in most .223 chambers this would be an unsafe load. I believe that 23.5 grains of Varget is a safe starting load with the 75/77 grain bullets.
I ran the 75 a-max in a 223 wylde chamber 25.2 of varget. I think I am about .02 off at 2.5. I think as in I don't remember exactly off the top my head. Its a 28" 1 in 8 and velocity was 3015. Barrel only had about 100 rounds down it when i chronoed to confirm SD. Then the bolt handle broke off, and I put a different bolt in it and screwed on a 22-250 barrel. The other barrel is still waiting for my factory remington to give up the ghost. The factory remington barrel does not have a long freebore, and I bet that load would blow primers in it. It was one of the XCR tactical models. Shoots SMKs great at AR mag length. I shoot 23.6 of varget and RL15 with the 77smk in it.
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73 ELD with 23.6 8208 at 2.260” is a very nice load. .5 moa and 2900 FPS from my 24” Tikka and single digit SD. And they run in an AR. I think overall it is THE load for the 223 given the cost vs benefit.
Then you have 75 ELD and 80 SMK and Varget and H4895. Of those the SMK and H4895 is the best combo. I’m getting 2900 FPS .010” Off the lands with 24.1grs and single digit SD.
The 75 ELD is a pain in the ass. The nose is too skinny and the seater stem mangles it during seating unless I make the necks super soft. I get 30 more FPS out of them but it’s not worth it. They’re too long for the 1-8” twist anyway so in the end they don’t have any advantage other than in price.
Then you have 75 ELD and 80 SMK and Varget and H4895. Of those the SMK and H4895 is the best combo. I’m getting 2900 FPS .010” Off the lands with 24.1grs and single digit SD.
The 75 ELD is a pain in the ass. The nose is too skinny and the seater stem mangles it during seating unless I make the necks super soft. I get 30 more FPS out of them but it’s not worth it. They’re too long for the 1-8” twist anyway so in the end they don’t have any advantage other than in price.
There is nothing wrong with the 75 ELD. You simply don't have the proper seating stem for them. They also will stabilize fine in a 1:8" twist. They shoot great, have an awesome B.C., expand well on varmints, and are cheap.
75 ELDs have shoot great for me.
I do have a proper seating stem. It works for every other bullet properly. The ELD is too long for 1-8” twist. If you try Berger’s Bullet Stability Calculator you’ll see that it’s awesome BC is not so awesome when fired out of a 1-8”. While I get excellent accuracy from them, the benefit is not worth the effort.
This is nuts. There are zero stability issues with the 75 ELD-M's which are highly accurate to 1000yds out of a Mullerworks 26" 1:8 at 3013 fps seated .02 off at 2.49" and I have seated over 1000 of them for my 223 barrel review with a Forster Ultra Micrometer seating die without a single issue.
Your assessment is over the top. The BC is reduced from .460 to .420 in a 1-8” barrel.
Berger's calculator grossly over estimates the B.C. loss from a slower twist barrel. I shoot lots of 75's from my 1:9" twist Remington barrel. They stabilize all the way past 1,000 yards and the B.C. I use is exactly what Hornady lists. You need to listen to those of us that have real world experience. The Berger calculator is not gospel. Real world data is. 1:8" twist works great for even the 80 grain ELD bullets.
I shoot these bullets out of standard length barrels at reasonable pressures and velocities at sea level. I get 2800-2900 FPS not 3100 out of some 32” space gun. If you call Hornady they will confirm that their listed BC is based on optimum twist. But you know better.
I guess I should tell my Kestrel you said the bc is off. The data it has been giving me running the ELD with .460 BC has lined up out to 940
I do know better. Because I actually shoot these bullets on a regular basis out to long distances. I am guessing you don't shoot them at long distance or you would know that the 75 and 80 ELD are some of the best long range .224 projectiles on the market. You can sit at a computer and type numbers into online calculators all day. You can call manufacturers and ask them any question you want. Won't make you right when it comes to real world results.
We arent talking about 32" space guns, were talking about 26" 1:8 "Standard length" barrels. I also dont care what numbers you come up with or who told who what. Real world data trumps all.
We arent talking about 32" space guns, were talking about 26" 1:8 "Standard length" barrels. I also dont care what numbers you come up with or who told who what. Real world data trumps all.
PADOM surely knows what he’s talking about. He always has 223 loads to absolutely hammer.
I’ve found that the 75ELDM is one of the most accurate bullets that I’ve tried out of my Stuteville 223 trainer. 23.7 grains of 8208 XBR shoot 1/2 MOA at 520 yards, and I load them with a Forster FL die.
I had great luck with my Tikka 223 Varmint with CFE223, but I never could find another powder that it consistently shot .5" groups with. It did ok with Varget and bad with Lovex. Never tried most of the others you guys are working with.
Of course CFE223 is very temp sensitive, and unfortunately my node on that gun was about 2,680 fps, so I could only get out to right at 700 yards before it went unstable. 1,000 yards was just a dream.
I was getting ES numbers in the 100+ FPS on hotter loads.
I had been shooting 24.4gr of Varget with the HDY 75gr HPBT-Match without having done any load development during a time crunch prior to the Berger LR Nationals last February,
While accurate enough for 9's and 10's at 600yd in F T/R, I finally got a chance to accuracy test the load., and found it to be less than ideal (>1MOA at 100yd). The load was being used as a generic load for both the Stag Model 6 Super Varminter (24" 1:8"), and the Savage 11VT (24" 1:9", hence the HBPT-M instead of the A-Max). I am set up to do load development testing with 6 increments ranging from 24.0gr to 25.0gr of Varget and the 75gr HPBT-M on my next range session, in the Stag Model 6. Once a preference is found it will be further accuracy tested in the other Stag Model 6 and the Savage 11VT, with reportable results expected soon thereafter.
The 24.4gr load showed no undue pressure signs.
Greg
While accurate enough for 9's and 10's at 600yd in F T/R, I finally got a chance to accuracy test the load., and found it to be less than ideal (>1MOA at 100yd). The load was being used as a generic load for both the Stag Model 6 Super Varminter (24" 1:8"), and the Savage 11VT (24" 1:9", hence the HBPT-M instead of the A-Max). I am set up to do load development testing with 6 increments ranging from 24.0gr to 25.0gr of Varget and the 75gr HPBT-M on my next range session, in the Stag Model 6. Once a preference is found it will be further accuracy tested in the other Stag Model 6 and the Savage 11VT, with reportable results expected soon thereafter.
The 24.4gr load showed no undue pressure signs.
Greg
I did load development with the 75eld and working up as you plan on doing and found 24.4gr of varget was my most accurate node at 100 yards. Even though it was a node and grouped the best at 100 yards it still grouped like shit at 100 yards. I was about to abandon the 75gr ELD until I took it out to 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 and 1000 yards. It was dependable and amazingly consistent at the long ranges.
Got out yesterday to Douglas Municipal Shooting Park, AZ, just on the Mex border. Two rifles; the Savage 11VT .223 (24" 1:9"), and the Stag Model 6 Super Varminter (kit) (24" 1:8"). Tested Varget and 75gr HDY HPBT-Match load in .2gr increments from 23.4gr to 24.4gr at 100yd; finding better grouping at 23.4gr and 23.8gr of Varget.
Winds were under 5mph, and temps were in the 70-ish range.
Also tested 50gr Nos BT/Varget load of 26.6gr, with very good accuracy from the Stag, and nothing really outstanding from the Savage with this load.
Greg
Winds were under 5mph, and temps were in the 70-ish range.
Also tested 50gr Nos BT/Varget load of 26.6gr, with very good accuracy from the Stag, and nothing really outstanding from the Savage with this load.
Greg
Got a quick batch of 10rds with 23.6 grains of varget loaded with 77gr smk's loaded to 1.910-1.912 base to ogive. They shot a whole hell of alot better then any 223 factory load I had laying around. .6 to .7ish vs 1.5 to 2in groups with factory. Now that I got at good starting point I just gotta do a .2gr incrementally load development. Thanks for all your input gentleman. Brent
Looking at this and factoring in my last range outing with Varget and HDY 75gr HPBT-Match in 24" bolt and AR rifles, I believe I'm seeing good performance at 23.7 gr for the bolt gun, and 24.0gr for the AR. That was Jan 2.
Unfortunately, my shooting buddy had a fairly bad motorcycle accident on Saturday, Jan 6; and is expected to be combat ineffective for at least 3 months. I may be short on shooting opportunities between now and then.
From now on, I'm taking the advice of others here and moving the target back to 200yd, and maybe also 300yd with the 75 HPBT-M. I am also still having trouble with my marksmanship basics, but am showing marked improvement since the new eyeglasses have arrived. I'll be sticking to the rest instead of the bipod from now on, except for instances where the bipod is required for scoring purposes.
Greg
Unfortunately, my shooting buddy had a fairly bad motorcycle accident on Saturday, Jan 6; and is expected to be combat ineffective for at least 3 months. I may be short on shooting opportunities between now and then.
From now on, I'm taking the advice of others here and moving the target back to 200yd, and maybe also 300yd with the 75 HPBT-M. I am also still having trouble with my marksmanship basics, but am showing marked improvement since the new eyeglasses have arrived. I'll be sticking to the rest instead of the bipod from now on, except for instances where the bipod is required for scoring purposes.
Greg
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Any thoughts or experience on the 75 eld out of a factory 700 1-9 20"?
I would say shoot some and see. I had a .223 5R that shot the 75gr HPBT surprisingly well. IME, 75gr from a 1-9 are hit or miss.
Thanks.
I was having nasty SD and ES issues with 24 Varget and 77 SMKs. I tried today with 24.3, 24.6. And 25 grains (all above max).
The 24.6 had a standard deviation of 11.2. And the 25 grain SD was 10.6. One round caused a difficult bolt extraction. Too hot. The five shot groups for the two warmest loads were under .4". All in all I'm concerned about loading that high over Hogdon and Hornady handbook. Lyman's lists loads up to 25 C maximum. Think I'll quit at 24.8 grains.
Bolt gun , Savage Axis II Precision.
