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223 Bolt Gun w/ 88 ELD-M Help

Habituallinestepper

Habituallinestepper

A dude, playing a dude, disguised as another dude
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Minuteman
Mar 6, 2018
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Looking for some feedback on issues with my first load, and to see if anyone else is running this bullet in mag fed bolt gun.

Gun:
- ARC Nucleus Gen 1
- 24" barrel, 223 (not AI), throated for 88s (second hand, so I'm not sure of the freebore), Sig 762TI-QD suppressor.
- MDT 223 polymer mag

Load:
- Virgin Lapua 223 brass, chamfer/deburred
- Fed GM 205M primers
- 88 ELD-M
- 1.943 CBTO (barely fits in the mag)
- H4895 (23.5, 23.7, 23.9, 24.1, 24.3), all were a little crunchy when seating

Took it out this morning (53 degrees) to see what the speeds looked like. Got 2804, 2843, 2858, 2867, 2874. 6-7 SD, 15-18 ES.

I'm good with the speed, and the accuracy was good enough for what I was trying to accomplish with the Magnetospeed hanging off. Just concerned with primers after firing. I've loaded for a little while, but this is my first foray into something that's not found in a Hornady or Hodgdon manual. Hence the ask for some feedback. Pictures here - Lapua on the left and some Winchester bulk 62g on the right that I sent downrange for comparison.

Safe to say it's a hot round and back off?

Anyone with a recipe to share with a similar setup?

Appreciate the help.
 

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That is movin for a 223 with 88’s. I would back down, especially if you ever plan on shooting when it rains.
 
I found that 23.7gr-23.9grs is where I found the best accuracy with 88s and h4895 from 22" and 26" barrels(2830 to 2850fps). It is a hot load and your primer pockets will not last long and if you pop a primer with a sako extractor it will probably end your day of shooting. So backing off would be smart but I didn't lol.

I currently run 88s with 25.8grs of varget from a 28" barrel right around 2900fps. It has a very long throat though.
 
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Appreciate the feedback guys, exactly what I was looking for.

Surprised there wasn't anything else going on like bolt lift. But yeah, I'm sure temp and low humidity help.
 
jzerfoss said:
I found that 23.7gr-23.9grs is where I found the best accuracy with 88s and h4895 from 22" and 26" barrels(2830 to 2850fps). It is a hot load and your primer pockets will not last long and if you pop a primer with a sako extractor it will probably end your day of shooting. So backing off would be smart but I didn't lol.

I currently run 88s with 25.8grs of varget from a 28" barrel right around 2900fps. It has a very long throat though.
Click to expand...

No its not hot its way overpressure.
 
I am running Accurate 2520 out of my AR15 12.5" with 73gr ELD-M @ 2680 fps because I was in search of higher velocity.
I am getting what I consider pretty fast speeds with zero pressure signs in this setup (CCI 450's). I tested at 50 F and at 87F for pressure, and didn't have any pressure signs.

In my bolt gun , I run 80gr AMAX at 2875 in a 26" barrel with Varget at 23 or 24gr I would have to look it up. However I couldnt get Varget to give me the speeds in the shorty barrel with the 77s (since I needed to make mag length).

I guess what I am saying is you may want to try the 2520 since it seems so much faster and see if it lets you get some higher velocity but without the pressure signs. As an aside, I tried XBR 8208 as well but got pressure signs way earlier in the speed so didn't do any more workup on that powder.
 
Habituallinestepper said:
Appreciate the feedback guys, exactly what I was looking for.

Surprised there wasn't anything else going on like bolt lift. But yeah, I'm sure temp and low humidity help.
Click to expand...
Well I’m about to pull the Creedmoor barrel from my ARC Nuke & screw on a 26” .223 from Short Action Customs. Just got the Accurate mags for it this week.

Do as I have & file this under the important things to remember section.

ARC actions hide pressure!! There will be no ejector stamps with the narrow Springfield style blade ejector. The firing pin is small & a very close fit in the bolt. If you get primer cratering (like you did), it’s way hot. I have had some hot loads in my ARC Nuc 1.2 & never got stiff bolt lift. If you pay close attention you can feel a “little” extra drag as you rotate, but it does not get stiff or stuck at the end of rotation. Maybe the primary extraction cam is a little different to give more leverage? I haven’t dug into that aspect, but Ted likely improved it.

You will see bright circular rub marks indicating there was drag as you rotated the bolt.
ABE3A7B7-C407-4CED-9B81-235EC610A62A.jpeg


I suspected these ARC’s hid pressure. Recently did an unscientific test to satisfy my curiosity. Took the Frank & Mark class in PA last month using my hand loads. They were on the warm side, but everything jived with GRT predictions & there were zero pressure signs. I ran 250 rounds over 4 days. This load is money from my 24” 6.5 Creedmoor. It was worked up from book max. 130 Berger Hybrid, .055 jump, RL 15.5 = 2961 SD 5.8. Per GRT it is near but not over max pressure.
Below the 2 rounds on the left were shot from my ARC nuke 1.2. Unfortunately I’ve already deprimed them, but there was zero cratering.
The 2 rounds on the right (same load) shot from another fantastic action (Terminus Zeus). There was no heavy bolt lift with the Zeus, but it does have a traditional ejector & showed some pressure on the Lapua brass. It shot equally as well from the Zeus BTW.
47414CEB-8929-4D83-85EF-98398893853C.jpeg
 
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It’s extremely difficult to understand why people feel the need to hot rod heavy bullets in standard 223. Not aimed directly at you OP but you’re far from the first person to do this/have issues and certainly won’t be the last.

If you’re deadset on shooting heavy bullets 2800+ out of a 223 bolt face, do an AI.

Better yet, do something like a 22BR. 223 is difficult enough to get consistent speeds out of as it is, and shoehorning powder/bullets into a case that really have no business being there only makes it more difficult.

My recommendation would be to stick to 75-80gr bullets. Hell, with your freebore, you can probably get those close to 3k with less pressure than your current load. Not to mention, 75s @ 2900 vs 88s @ 2800 is MAYBE a tenth or two difference out to 1k.
 
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No worries, I'm a big boy. That's why I posted - so people can tell me where I'm screwing up. I tried 88s because it was intriguing and used the best info I could find. Also because I got a great deal on the rifle and it was already set up that way. Rifle was cloverleafing with 75gr Hornady Black factory, so I can fall back on lighter bullets too.
 
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your math is a little off
"Got 2804, 2843, 2858, 2867, 2874. 6-7 SD, 15-18 ES".
Never mind- See you used several different charges.

75@2900 vs 88@2800 is half mil in 10 mph wind.
I shoot 88s out of a 22N @3000 pretty easy. Does better @ 2950.
 
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Rocketvapor said:
your math is a little off
"Got 2804, 2843, 2858, 2867, 2874. 6-7 SD, 15-18 ES".
Never mind- See you used several different charges.

75@2900 vs 88@2800 is half mil in 10 mph wind.
I shoot 88s out of a 22N @3000 pretty easy. Does better @ 2950.
Click to expand...

Def not a half mil. Maybe .2 on a bad day. Not positive what ballistic calculator says but I’ve tried both side by side multiple times in multiple conditions… could have used the same holds each time and hit all the same.
 
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just browsing said:
It’s extremely difficult to understand why people feel the need to hot rod heavy bullets in standard 223. Not aimed directly at you OP but you’re far from the first person to do this/have issues and certainly won’t be the last.

If you’re deadset on shooting heavy bullets 2800+ out of a 223 bolt face, do an AI.

Better yet, do something like a 22BR. 223 is difficult enough to get consistent speeds out of as it is, and shoehorning powder/bullets into a case that really have no business being there only makes it more difficult.

My recommendation would be to stick to 75-80gr bullets. Hell, with your freebore, you can probably get those close to 3k with less pressure than your current load. Not to mention, 75s @ 2900 vs 88s @ 2800 is MAYBE a tenth or two difference out to 1k.
Click to expand...
It's not difficult or unsafe to break 2800fps with 88/85.5s in a standard 223 with the right setup. An AI just isn't worth it to some of us for the maybe 25fps(ish) bump. 223 is far more capable than it's given credit for and in my experience it's the most consistent when it's pushed hard. Not saying anyone should be recklessly unsafe but on the other hand I don't know anyone that doesn't shoot over handloading book maxes in their competition rifles.
 
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jzerfoss said:
It's not difficult or unsafe to break 2800fps with 88/85.5s in a standard 223 with the right setup. An AI just isn't worth it to some of us for the maybe 25fps(ish) bump. 223 is far more capable than it's given credit for and in my experience it's the most consistent when it's pushed hard. Not saying anyone should be recklessly unsafe but on the other hand I don't know anyone that doesn't shoot over handloading book maxes in their competition rifles.
Click to expand...

My experience has been entirely different.

I’ve gone through like 3 barrels with standard .223, all with .125+ FBs (24 - 26”), various powders, seating depths, etc. and none of them broke 2800 “easily.”

Also the main point was that 75s are every bit as capable as the heavier bullets and are MUCH easier to push hard. If you’re saying you can get 2800 with 88s easily, you can get 75s to 2950-3000 “easily.”

Don’t disagree the AI is not worth the squeeze, but there are better ways to get good 223 performance than 85gr+ bullets and/or using insanely overpressure loads.
 
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That’s the load I run in my AI (24.2 H4895). Just run the bullet easy and enjoy the BC. You are gaining nothing by running them that hot.
 
Oops, sorry.
Half a mil @ 1000, 10mph.
Nobody misses a wind call by 10mph though.
But @ 600 that 0.2 mil (a little over 4") is a 9 from a center shot.
 
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just browsing said:
My experience has been entirely different.

I’ve gone through like 3 barrels with standard .223, all with .125+ FBs (24 - 26”), various powders, seating depths, etc. and none of them broke 2800 “easily.”

Also the main point was that 75s are every bit as capable as the heavier bullets and are MUCH easier to push hard. If you’re saying you can get 2800 with 88s easily, you can get 75s to 2950-3000 “easily.”

Don’t disagree the AI is not worth the squeeze, but there are better ways to get good 223 performance than 85gr+ bullets and/or using insanely overpressure loads.
Click to expand...
Did you try Lever?

I'm working up ladders for 85.5's with Lever now. 26" stick. Expecting 2850. Also hoping this barrel likes 77 RDF's @ 2950ish. I'll try 2520, TAC, & N135 with the RDF's. 77RDF's will be for tac class.
 
357Max said:
Did you try Lever?

I'm working up ladders for 85.5's with Lever now. 26" stick. Expecting 2850. Also hoping this barrel likes 77 RDF's @ 2950ish. I'll try 2520, TAC, & N135 with the RDF's. 77RDF's will be for tac class.
Click to expand...

Sure did, it’s temp sensitive as fuck. The extra speed is just not worth the hassle.

TAC, 4895, 8208, and Varget were all definitely overpressure with the 88s to get those speeds. They got there, but no way I would call it easy.
 
just browsing said:
Sure did, it’s temp sensitive as fuck. The extra speed is just not worth the hassle.

TAC, 4895, 8208, and Varget were all definitely overpressure with the 88s to get those speeds. They got there, but no way I would call it easy.
Click to expand...
What pressure signs were you seeing or were you going off estimates of over pressure? If you saw pressure did you stop as soon as you saw a light pressure sign, heavy pressure sign, or multiple signs? I've had 3 bolt action 223 barrels( 2-223 Wyldes, 1-223 long throat) and all hit 2800fps with 88s and no pressure signs.
 
jzerfoss said:
What pressure signs were you seeing or were you going off estimates of over pressure? If you saw pressure did you stop as soon as you saw a light pressure sign, heavy pressure sign, or multiple signs? I've had 3 bolt action 223 barrels( 2-223 Wyldes, 1-223 long throat) and all hit 2800fps with 88s and no pressure signs.
Click to expand...

Cratered primers, ejector marks, and in severe cases, torched brass in 2-3 firings (Lapua & Starline). To be clear, I’m not that averse to pressure… I could get to 2800, but it was right on the edge of what I felt was logical.

I don’t consider logical having to worry about temperature, rain, or anything else that could
otherwise change what I expect the gun to do. 75s, no problem going 2900+ consistently with room to spare.

Guess it could boil down to twist rate or bore size but this was 2 different actions and 2 different barrel makes as well. Certainly wasn’t for lack of trying.

Either way, my original point stands… hot rodding these things just don’t gain you much beyond a headache.
 
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just browsing said:
Cratered primers, ejector marks, and in severe cases, torched brass in 2-3 firings (Lapua & Starline). To be clear, I’m not that averse to pressure… I could get to 2800, but it was right on the edge of what I felt was logical.

I don’t consider logical having to worry about temperature, rain, or anything else that could
otherwise change what I expect the gun to do. 75s, no problem going 2900+ consistently with room to spare.

Guess it could boil down to twist rate or bore size but this was 2 different actions and 2 different barrel makes as well. Certainly wasn’t for lack of trying.

Either way, my original point stands… hot rodding these things just don’t gain you much beyond a headache.
Click to expand...
I could definitely see myself agreeing with you if I had a similar experience. I have had similar experiences with other cartridges and went away from those because that. I think most people will agree with you on the 223 and I'm definitely ok with that because it makes components easier to find and more affordable for me!
 
357Max said:
the important things to remember section....

ARC actions hide pressure!! If you get primer cratering (like you did), it’s way hot....

I suspected these ARC’s hid pressure. Recently did an unscientific test ......but there was zero cratering....
Click to expand...

the most important thing to remember is that cratering is NOT a pressure sign if you dont know what you are looking at. and you clearly dont know.

also primer piercing in NOT a pressure sign if you dont know what you are looking at. and you clearly dont know.
 
Habituallinestepper said:
Looking for some feedback on issues with my first load, and to see if anyone else is running this bullet in mag fed bolt gun.

Gun:
- ARC Nucleus Gen 1
- 24" barrel, 223 (not AI), throated for 88s (second hand, so I'm not sure of the freebore), Sig 762TI-QD suppressor.
- MDT 223 polymer mag

Load:
- Virgin Lapua 223 brass, chamfer/deburred
- Fed GM 205M primers
- 88 ELD-M
- 1.943 CBTO (barely fits in the mag)
- H4895 (23.5, 23.7, 23.9, 24.1, 24.3), all were a little crunchy when seating

Took it out this morning (53 degrees) to see what the speeds looked like. Got 2804, 2843, 2858, 2867, 2874. 6-7 SD, 15-18 ES.

I'm good with the speed, and the accuracy was good enough for what I was trying to accomplish with the Magnetospeed hanging off. Just concerned with primers after firing. I've loaded for a little while, but this is my first foray into something that's not found in a Hornady or Hodgdon manual. Hence the ask for some feedback. Pictures here - Lapua on the left and some Winchester bulk 62g on the right that I sent downrange for comparison.

Safe to say it's a hot round and back off?

Anyone with a recipe to share with a similar setup?

Appreciate the help.
Click to expand...
Just looking the pictures you posted, it appears that a couple different brands of brass was used, that in itself will give you different pressures, velocity’s, points of impact. Stick with just one brand of brass .
 
Mr Tibbs said:
Just looking the pictures you posted, it appears that a couple different brands of brass was used, that in itself will give you different pressures, velocity’s, points of impact. Stick with just one brand of brass .
Click to expand...
All of the handloads with the primer craters were Lapua. The two on the right were factory just to provide a control.
 
I have a 223AI shooting the 88s between 2800-2900 with my nucleus. Above 2850, most of my loads only are shootable with Lapua brass. I will blow primers right out with LC or FC brass. Lapua can take a lot more before showing pressure ime so be careful.
 
I ran into pressure much sooner with Lapua than with LC or Winchester using other bullets than the 88. I assume that is because Lapua has lesser case capacity.
Here is my data on 88s with Varget and Leverevolution, LC brass, CCI 41s. 26" straight 223 Bartlien. No pressure signs on any of these loads.
 

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jLorenzo said:
I ran into pressure much sooner with Lapua than with LC or Winchester using other bullets than the 88. I assume that is because Lapua has lesser case capacity.
Here is my data on 88s with Varget and Leverevolution, LC brass, CCI 41s. 26" straight 223 Bartlien. No pressure signs on any of these loads.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that Lever info. I also have a 223R 26” Bartlain. I’ll be using Starline 5.56 Brass.
Did you see SD’s drop with the Lever as you pushed the charge weight higher? That’s a trend I’ve seen with Lever in 224 Valk & 6ARC.

I need to measure H2o capacity for various 223 cases.
 
jLorenzo said:
I ran into pressure much sooner with Lapua than with LC or Winchester using other bullets than the 88. I assume that is because Lapua has lesser case capacity.
Here is my data on 88s with Varget and Leverevolution, LC brass, CCI 41s. 26" straight 223 Bartlien. No pressure signs on any of these loads.
Click to expand...
Over 3000 with 88s is smoking fast in a 223, gotta love that lever speed. Have you tested that load at different temps?
 
357Max said:
Thanks for that Lever info. I also have a 223R 26” Bartlain. I’ll be using Starline 5.56 Brass.
Did you see SD’s drop with the Lever as you pushed the charge weight higher? That’s a trend I’ve seen with Lever in 224 Valk & 6ARC.

I need to measure H2o capacity for various 223 cases.
Click to expand...
I have heard that as well. These were just single charges, just working up to get an idea of where the brass starts to show pressure. I have not had time to do anymore.
 
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nrspence said:
Over 3000 with 88s is smoking fast in a 223, gotta love that lever speed. Have you tested that load at different temps?
Click to expand...
I have not. Still need to figure that all out. I have also heard PowerPro 2000MR might be something to check out.
 
I also have 2 pounds of Reloader TS 15.5 that I am going to test out with 88s. GRT shows some promise and its right in there burn rate wise I think.
 
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jLorenzo said:
I also have 2 pounds of Reloader TS 15.5 that I am going to test out with 88s. GRT shows some promise and its right in there burn rate wise I think.
Click to expand...
I have some 15.5 I want to try out as well. Looks be in the right burn rate for the heavies.
 
jLorenzo said:
I also have 2 pounds of Reloader TS 15.5 that I am going to test out with 88s. GRT shows some promise and its right in there burn rate wise I think.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't get your hopes up for the 15.5. It's bulky like RL16 so I couldn't get enough in the 223 case at AR length to find pressure. I gave up on it.

Tried it recently in a 18" 223 AR 25.0gr was compressed with a 77SMK loaded 2.250 and gave 2657 in Win Brass. No pressure & SD's were good, but speed sucked.
23.3 XBR in same brass @ same length with 77SMK went 2740.

I've got 2520, N135, & TAC on hand to try next.

Tried 15.5 in a 18" RL +1" AR Valk with 85 RDF's and tore the hell out of some brass. It went from no pressure - to holly crap real fast & speed still lacked.
224V 15.5 25.9gr 85 RDF .020 jump = 2677 SD 8.6 & showed some pressure. 26.2 = 2705 SD 12.3 & wrecked the brass.
224V Lever 26.5 85 RDF .020 jump = 2810 SD 1.0 (6shots) & no pressure.

I think 6GT or BR variants is were 15.5 starts to shine. I also had great results with 15.5 in 6.5 Creedmoor and 130 gr

I doubt anything will beat Lever for speed with heavies in small cases.

As for temp sensitivity I haven't seen the big swings everyone gripes about with Lever. Might be a lot worse in a larger case like a 30-30.
There is a lot to be said for combustion efficiency these small cases have.
It's an anecdotal claim as I didn't take the best notes this year but I did check a few loads at different temps for reference.
Below are the best comparisons I have using same brass, load length, & close as possible charges.
A fairly hot 77RDF Valk load worked up at 52 degrees shot phenomenal @ 27.4 = 2922 SD 13
I bumped the load to 27.6 and shot it in the low 80's for temp =2950 SD 8.4 (9 shots), then shot that same load as verification in mid 90's temp = 2947 SD 11.6 (5 shots).

6ARC was similar I worked up a Berger 109 load with 29.5 Lever in low 50's = 2687 SD 7.7 (15 shots), Bumped the load .3 late spring & then shot it the same day as Valk in the mid 90's 29.8 = 2732 SD 6.7 (8 shots).
 
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357Max said:
I wouldn't get your hopes up for the 15.5. It's bulky like RL16 so I couldn't get enough in the 223 case at AR length to find pressure. I gave up on it.

Tried it recently in a 18" 223 AR 25.0gr was compressed with a 77SMK loaded 2.250 and gave 2657 in Win Brass. No pressure & SD's were good, but speed sucked.
23.3 XBR in same brass @ same length with 77SMK went 2740.

I've got 2520, N135, & TAC on hand to try next.

Tried 15.5 in a 18" RL +1" AR Valk with 85 RDF's and tore the hell out of some brass. It went from no pressure - to holly crap real fast & speed still lacked.
224V 15.5 25.9gr 85 RDF .020 jump = 2677 SD 8.6 & showed some pressure. 26.2 = 2705 SD 12.3 & wrecked the brass.
224V Lever 26.5 85 RDF .020 jump = 2810 SD 1.0 (6shots) & no pressure.

I think 6GT or BR variants is were 15.5 starts to shine. I also had great results with 15.5 in 6.5 Creedmoor and 130 gr

I doubt anything will beat Lever for speed with heavies in small cases.

As for temp sensitivity I haven't seen the big swings everyone gripes about with Lever. Might be a lot worse in a larger case like a 30-30.
There is a lot to be said for combustion efficiency these small cases have.
It's an anecdotal claim as I didn't take the best notes this year but I did check a few loads at different temps for reference.
Below are the best comparisons I have using same brass, load length, & close as possible charges.
A fairly hot 77RDF Valk load worked up at 52 degrees shot phenomenal @ 27.4 = 2922 SD 13
I bumped the load to 27.6 and shot it in the low 80's for temp =2950 SD 8.4 (9 shots), then shot that same load as verification in mid 90's temp = 2947 SD 11.6 (5 shots).

6ARC was similar I worked up a Berger 109 load with 29.5 Lever in low 50's = 2687 SD 7.7 (15 shots), Bumped the load .3 late spring & then shot it the same day as Valk in the mid 90's 29.8 = 2732 SD 6.7 (8 shots).
Click to expand...
Good info, thanks for sharing.
 
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Boys, boys, we're in an 88 thread. We're all bros lol. Lets keep it comfy.
 
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357Max said:
I wouldn't get your hopes up for the 15.5. It's bulky like RL16 so I couldn't get enough in the 223 case at AR length to find pressure. I gave up on it.

Tried it recently in a 18" 223 AR 25.0gr was compressed with a 77SMK loaded 2.250 and gave 2657 in Win Brass. No pressure & SD's were good, but speed sucked.
23.3 XBR in same brass @ same length with 77SMK went 2740.

I've got 2520, N135, & TAC on hand to try next.

Tried 15.5 in a 18" RL +1" AR Valk with 85 RDF's and tore the hell out of some brass. It went from no pressure - to holly crap real fast & speed still lacked.
224V 15.5 25.9gr 85 RDF .020 jump = 2677 SD 8.6 & showed some pressure. 26.2 = 2705 SD 12.3 & wrecked the brass.
224V Lever 26.5 85 RDF .020 jump = 2810 SD 1.0 (6shots) & no pressure.

I think 6GT or BR variants is were 15.5 starts to shine. I also had great results with 15.5 in 6.5 Creedmoor and 130 gr

I doubt anything will beat Lever for speed with heavies in small cases.

As for temp sensitivity I haven't seen the big swings everyone gripes about with Lever. Might be a lot worse in a larger case like a 30-30.
There is a lot to be said for combustion efficiency these small cases have.
It's an anecdotal claim as I didn't take the best notes this year but I did check a few loads at different temps for reference.
Below are the best comparisons I have using same brass, load length, & close as possible charges.
A fairly hot 77RDF Valk load worked up at 52 degrees shot phenomenal @ 27.4 = 2922 SD 13
I bumped the load to 27.6 and shot it in the low 80's for temp =2950 SD 8.4 (9 shots), then shot that same load as verification in mid 90's temp = 2947 SD 11.6 (5 shots).

6ARC was similar I worked up a Berger 109 load with 29.5 Lever in low 50's = 2687 SD 7.7 (15 shots), Bumped the load .3 late spring & then shot it the same day as Valk in the mid 90's 29.8 = 2732 SD 6.7 (8 shots).
Click to expand...
XBR is becoming on of my favorites. 3050 fps with 75gr ELDs out of the bolt gun is nice, also works great with the 77s in the gas gun.
 
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I run Varget with the 88 eld out of a 24” barrel velocity is 2700 fps. That’s with a cci 450 primer and LC brass. Accuracy is very good and I feel I am at a comfortable pressure.
 
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