223 seating depth issues

[DynamicAccuracy]

So I got a remage prefit in 223rem with a match chamber. Criterion said this chamber was setup to be ideal for 80gr bullets which is what I was planning on shooting. Got it in and checked oal with 80.5gr bergers and it seemed REALLY short throated for a barrel intended for a bolt gun. Talked to a gunsmith friend of mine and he said he would rethroat it deeper with his reamer setup for 77gr tmk. Got it back and checked OAL again and it still seems really short. The first pic is with the bearing surface/boat tail junction seated right at the neck/shoulder junction like most cartridges are setup. The second picture is seated .020" off the lands. It measures out to be 1.820" base to ogive seated .020" off the lands. I've got PLENTY of room left in my accurate mag for more length and feel like I could get more speed if the bullet wasnt taking up so much case volume being seated so deep. Is there a reason why .223 reamers seem to be setup so short?

 

[spife7980]

How are you finding your distance to the lands?

 

[padom]

Yea that's not right. Standard 223 wylde reamer puts 80 ELD at 2.515 at lands

 

[Campguy308]

I don't have a straight 223, but this is what my 223AI looks like with 80eldm at .020 off. It's 1.858 to ogive.

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

How are you finding your distance to the lands?

Hornady OAL tool with a 223 modified cases

 

[natdscott]

So I got a remage prefit in 223rem with a match chamber. Criterion said this chamber was setup to be ideal for 80gr bullets which is what I was planning on shooting. Got it in and checked oal with 80.5gr bergers and it seemed REALLY short throated for a barrel intended for a bolt gun. Talked to a gunsmith friend of mine and he said he would rethroat it deeper with his reamer setup for 77gr tmk. Got it back and checked OAL again and it still seems really short. The first pic is with the bearing surface/boat tail junction seated right at the neck/shoulder junction like most cartridges are setup. The second picture is seated .020" off the lands. It measures out to be 1.820" base to ogive seated .020" off the lands. I've got PLENTY of room left in my accurate mag for more length and feel like I could get more speed if the bullet wasnt taking up so much case volume being seated so deep. Is there a reason why .223 reamers seem to be setup so short?

1) use your own fired casing and "modify" it.

2) Extant ".223 Remington SAAMI" and similar reamers are set up with short freebore because it is an anemic cartridge with very little ability past 300 yards, relative to it's larger-headstamp brethren. At the time those reamers were being designed, the .222 Remington was still king (often with ZERO freebore), and nobody ever planned to shoot the .223 very far, thus, nobody had made any bullets for it to do so.

In the late 80's to early 90's, that all changed with the US AMU's conversion to the M16A2 Service Rifle rather than the M14 they'd used forever (ever).

That change spurred the development of first, the 69 Sierra MatchKing, and then others. Longer bullets required a more lengthy freebore to avoid jamming, so all those reamers started getting changed. Fairly soon, people started to figure out that, with good bullets, the .223 was a remarkably capable--on paper, literally--competitor with it's big(ger) brother the .308.

I can't tell you exactly when the Sierra 80 BTHP was introduced, but it also changed the world of .223 forever. As far as I am aware, it was the first "long" bullet in .224, and the first that became widely adopted for loading well beyond the normal COALs; it was also the first to be used for longer-than-mag-length single loading of AR-15s.

** History over...

If you want a longer round, then you need to have your barrel custom setup...not a box barrel from Criterion. "Wylde" is what you're almost always gonna get for a "match" chamber nowadays.

The positive is that you can still REMOVE the metal you don't want. To go LONG, you are looking something on the order of 0.100-150" freebore, at 0.2245" diameter. Don't go tighter than that, as slight concentricity issues and/or carbon will raise hell with your ES.

My recommendation: Send the whole damn thing to John Scandale at Keystone Accuracy, tell him you want the barrel re-cut with his long range reamer, and move on with your life. I bet he turns it back to you in under two weeks, just don't plan on lengthy discussions on philosophy on the phone.

-Nate

 

[spife7980]

Hornady OAL tool with a 223 modified cases

And that’s to touch? What do you get to a hard jam?

If you want a longer round, then you need to have your barrel custom setup...not a box barrel from Criterion. "Wylde" is what you're almost always gonna get for a "match" chamber nowadays.

The positive is that you can still REMOVE the metal you don't want. To go LONG, you are looking something on the order of 0.100-150" freebore, at 0.2245" diameter. Don't go tighter than that, as slight concentricity issues and/or carbon will raise hell with your ES.

The criterion match is a .090 freebore and about .001 tighter around the entire case body vs the .062 of the wylde with looser dimensions.

 

[natdscott]

The criterion match is a .090 freebore and about .001 tighter around the entire case body vs the .062 of the wylde with looser dimensions.

Yuppers. You need about 160, from the sound of your "wants". Mine started as a 110 from Scandale, and is now about 154.

About that "tighter" part. Careful with that, and don't dick with Lapua brass unless you're turning.

 

[padom]

Too much misinformation flying around here. You dont need anything more than a 223 Wylde.

If you go pull up my Prefit vs Shouldered 223 Wylde barrel review you will find a lot of factual data and numbers. Kreiger donated a M24 blank which John @ Keystone Accuracy chambered with his 223 Wylde reamer at my request to keep the apples to apples comparison with the other barrels submitted for the review/testing. Criterion also sent me 2 barrels that were chambered in .223 Wydle. Distance to the lands was identical to Keystone's 223 Wylde chambered Kreiger with 75 ELD's. Shilen Select Match that they sent me also chambered in .223 Wylde measured exact same distance to the lands as the Criterion and the Kreiger with the same lot of 75 ELDs.... Why, because they all used a .223 Wylde reamer which is a standard spec. If they use a 223 Wylde reamer than the chamber will be a 223 Wylde chamber, same as everyone elses 223 Wylde chambers. If its not, then its not a 223 Wylde chamber. Simple as that. I ran into this problem before, even though I was told up and down it was a 223 Wylde chamber. Was hitting the lands with 75 ELD at 2.41...A good 0.102 short of the 6 other Wylde chambers I had in front of me...

Here is my go to 75 ELD-M / Varget load for my Keystone Accuracy 26" Kreiger 223 Wylde barrel from that review. This measures 1.953" Base to Ogive, 2.512" COAL and sits 0.005" off the lands. This length was determined via a seating depth test after selecting my load in this Keystone Kreiger. Tested from 1.933 up to 1.953" base to ogive in 0.005" increments. 1.953" shot the tightest five shot group with no vertical. This round fits and feeds out of a AICS 223 magazine and an Accurate .223 magazine as well as an MDT 223 mag.

I wouldnt want anymore freebore for this bullet as the boat tail / bearing surface junction is just a hair above the case neck / shoulder junction.

 

[padom]

OP

What bullet do you have in your pic? 77smk or 80smk??

 

[cornhusker86]

OP

What bullet do you have in your pic? 77smk or 80smk??

I think both pics are 80's. Two different seating depths.

 

[natdscott]

Too much misinformation flying around here. You dont need anything more than a 223 Wylde.


I wouldnt want anymore freebore for this bullet as the boat tail / bearing surface junction is just a hair above the case neck / shoulder junction.

1) From the sound of this guy's comments, he has a 90 freebore, and is unhappy with it. I therefore went off my own experience with longer chambers, and made my recommendations.

I'm not spewing forth bullshit:
--Kiff ISSF Reamer - 0.2242 Freebore @ 141
---Scandale LR Reamer - 0.2245 Freebore @ 108-110 (my exhaustive measurements with 9 bullets)
----Holliger .223 90 chamber - 0.2245 Freebore @ 106
-----And the Long Range guys are in the 140-160 range as well.


2) Perhaps you don't. He might though.

Sure, by going with a longer chamber, I have to sacrifice either a) some barrel life, or (b) some of my ability to chase the lands (trigger warning: ya don't always have to! My 77 SMK mag load is jumping nearly a 1/4", and hammers in the 1/2 Minute area.)

But as anemic as .223 is, if you want it to be a big little gun, you have to get a little more creative than Bill's chamber at times. A bolt gun is the perfect example of that.

Hell, if I'm doing it to an AR, what could you do with more barrel?!

I can tell you.

Look at Bob Gill. I've shot with him, and he is not spreading 'misinformation' very far outside the 1 MOA X ring at 1,000 yards...

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...a-fullbore-championship-with-223-palma-rifle/

I spoke with him in the vans on the way back downrange after he fired a 200-11x in the first "Remington" match of the Atterbury NRA 1,000 yard Nationals last year, to get his take on what I was doing. His is some of the advice I am heeding on NOT sticking with .223 Service Rifle.



But most performance gains can only be gotten via the same methods, regardless of who/where/what targets.

 

[padom]

1) From the sound of this guy's comments, he has a 90 freebore, and is unhappy with it. I therefore went off my own experience with longer chambers, and made my recommendations.

I'm not spewing forth bullshit:
--Kiff ISSF Reamer - 0.2242 Freebore @ 141
---Scandale LR Reamer - 0.2245 Freebore @ 108-110 (my exhaustive measurements with 9 bullets)
----Holliger .223 90 chamber - 0.2245 Freebore @ 106
-----And the Long Range guys are in the 140-160 range as well.


2) Perhaps you don't. He might though.

Sure, by going with a longer chamber, I have to sacrifice either a) some barrel life, or (b) some of my ability to chase the lands (trigger warning: ya don't always have to! My 77 SMK mag load is jumping nearly a 1/4", and hammers in the 1/2 Minute area.)

But as anemic as .223 is, if you want it to be a big little gun, you have to get a little more creative than Bill's chamber at times. A bolt gun is the perfect example of that.

Hell, if I'm doing it to an AR, what could you do with more barrel?!

I can tell you.

Look at Bob Gill. I've shot with him, and he is not spreading 'misinformation' very far outside the 1 MOA X ring at 1,000 yards...

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...a-fullbore-championship-with-223-palma-rifle/

I spoke with him in the vans on the way back downrange after he fired a 200-11x in the first "Remington" match of the Atterbury NRA 1,000 yard Nationals last year, to get his take on what I was doing. His is some of the advice I am heeding on NOT sticking with .223 Service Rifle.



But most performance gains can only be gotten via the same methods, regardless of who/where/what targets.

Your missing the entire point of my post and you took my post as a personal attack on you. You took it that way, doesnt mean it was aimed at you...Did I mention you? Did I quote you? Take a breath and remember that before firing off a reply with a roll sheet of who you know and why you know all the right answers.

Second, who you talk to, what match you shot at, what van ride you took, what score you, your brother or Trump or anyone else shot means NOTHING to me. I feel no need to sit here and list all the people I associate with or talk to or bounce ideas off of. Why? Because I dont care what you think of the factual data I provide I speak in real world data only. No, I dont shoot matches, no I dont shoot highpower, no I dont shoot NRA 1000. But what I do do is test a LOT of products each year from many different companies, gunsmiths, etc and provide factual data to the members here.

Im not telling this guy what HE needs or wants. Im telling him that if he has a .223 Wylde chamber (0.0619" fb) or as you state, 90 freebore, which even validates my above post and point Im makin even more is that SOMETHING IS WRONG. If that is a 80smk (which he does not state the bullet type in his OP) then there is NO WAY its jammed down in the case that far with a 223 Wylde or more so a 90 freebore chamber.

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

OP

What bullet do you have in your pic? 77smk or 80smk??

80.5gr berger fullbore

 

[natdscott]

Alright, fair points. I don't think I know all the right answers, but I am trying to interpret what this guy wants to do, same as you. Ego gets in the way of communication all the time.

In the land of drag racing analogies, I think you and I are in disagreement on just how fast this guy wants to go, so perhaps he'll be along shortly to clarify.

I wasn't name dropping as a name drop, I was demonstrating the capability (with a searchable title of the shooter) of the .223 round in a long-chambered bolt gun, if a guy is willing to get outside the box a little (more than Bill Wylde).

Now then, I see your points about his loaded rounds, and perhaps something IS wrong in his measurements (I, for one, do NOT like the Hornady tool. I use a Sinclair rod.)

That being said, when you say THIS:

Too much misinformation flying around here. You dont need anything more than a 223 Wylde.

...and you MEAN this:

.. SOMETHING IS WRONG. ...there is NO WAY its jammed down in the case that far with a 223 Wylde or more so a 90 freebore chamber.

...maybe you can see where I didn't read your intent correctly?

 

[padom]

That being said, when you say THIS:



...and you MEAN this:



...maybe you can see where I didn't read your intent correctly?

To you, yes I get it but to the general pop I stand by my post. And again, my post was not directed at you, it was a general statement to all.

The OP has delivered himself as not having a ton of knowledge on the subject. He thought he was getting one thing and appears hes trying to:

a) confirm he got what he's supposed to have or
b) confirm there is an issue and how to resolve it


Im telling him there is something wrong and provided data on why there is something wrong.

 

[natdscott]

Roger that. My apologies.

 

[_Raining]

I have a Criterion Prefit with .223 Rem Match chamber with a .090 fb and .254nk with .2245 throat on my Tikka T3. I'll take some measurements (Berger 80 grain VLDs) when I get home tonight but that to touch seems off. Is the barrel unshot? Carbon in the throat can mess up your testing.

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

I have a Criterion Prefit with .223 Rem Match chamber with a .090 fb and .254nk with .2245 throat on my Tikka T3. I'll take some measurements (Berger 80 grain VLDs) when I get home tonight but that to touch seems off. Is the barrel unshot? Carbon in the throat can mess up your testing.

Yes. Brand new barrel. Not a single round down it

 

[spife7980]

I’d like you to size a once fired piece and see if it goes away. That would point to the virgin brass being crooked. Just a hunch