PRS Talk 22br for PRS

[Baron85]

I’m currently shooting a 6br with 108 eldms but looking ahead to the next barrel. The matches I shoot usually go out to around 1000-1100 with 1 match going out too 1475. I have been running ballistics on 88eldms running 3050 which from what I have read is about normal for a 22br and it beats my 6br and is almost identical to my 6.5x47 running 140eldms out to around 1200.

Is there a reason you don’t see people running the 22br? Bullets are cheaper, I imagine barrel life is slightly reduced from the 6br but still pretty good. I thought about energy on target to spot impacts in comps but the calculator said at 1200 yards the 22br is only about 50# energy less than the 6br and most targets past 800 yards have flashers where I shoot.

Anyone have some reason why or why not to change from 6br to 22br? I’m about to restock on bullets and don’t want to over buy if im going to swap to 22br.

 

[Mormegil87]

The trend is moving towards slow 6mm for PRS mainly for seeing trace and impacts. The small ballistic benefits, mainly less wind deflection, of the fast 22s and 6mms is overshadowed by the loss of seeing trace

 

[Reload10]

I shoot 22 cal, 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, and 30 cal at distance. The biggest difference I see is ability to make a correction on misses. I'm not practiced enough to see trace >50%, so that's a mute point for me. With any matches, being able to see splash and make the 2nd round impact is more important than a slight edge on wind deflection. That said I shoot 6 dasher mostly and find its a sweet spot.

 

[Baron85]

I didn’t know the trace would be different. That’s a pretty big deal.

 

[Mormegil87]

I didn’t know the trace would be different. That’s a pretty big deal.

Not that it's different. It's more a factor of speed and distance. A good portion of stages are under 600yds, almost all but few are under 1000. The bullet just gets out there faster so there's less time to pic up trace

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Ive thought about doing a 22dasher with the 88s and 90 SMKs. Haven't decided though.

 

[b6graham]

i'd rock the 85.5 LRHT (or 90/95 SMK) but that's just me

slow for trace is very much dependent on environments and where you shoot too and i think overstated when discussing the BR family

it's something different to play with. you may like it but maybe not

i shot a 22LRV for most of a season (6XC parent) and 95SMKs at 3150 is damn comical to watch trace wise

 

[Sheldon N]

I have been running ballistics on 88eldms running 3050 which from what I have read is about normal for a 22br

Quickload says that 88 ELD-M's at 3050 is a spicy load for 22BR, even with a 28" barrel you'll be at or above 65kpsi.

I think there's a consistency advantage to running a cartridge with better barrel life. Slower throat erosion, less likely that the load needs tweaking for velocity or groups, less time/effort spent in worrying and checking gun performance over the life of the barrel.

If you're chasing cheaper bullets, consider the cost of barrel life in the evaluation. Depending on what you assume the barrel life of a 6BR vs a 22BR is, that's probably around $0.08 per shot in barrel life cost difference. Add in a couple more range trips with the 22BR to double check the load and it may not be any cheaper at all.

 

[KnowNothing256]

@Birddog6424

 

[Birddog6424]

I'm on my fifth barrel on the 22BR. I've played with a lot of loads, freebores, etc. Got a pretty good feel for it these days.

As Sheldon points out, 3050fps is pretty spicy for 88s. The 85.5 Berger LRHT gets a little closer to that with its shorter bearing surface. But that's still upper edge for the BR. Myself and several others have found the sweet spot with the 88s to be right around 3000fps. My last couple barrels have been 29grs Varget, .040 jump, .130 freebore. I run that for the life of the barrel which is about 2500 to 3000 rounds. I'm not sure what barrel life will be with the little extra pop you're running it at, but I know the load stays consistent when you slow it down a little.

Spotting trace is situational. As in very situational. You can talk to the top PRS shooters in the nation, some say it works, some say it doesn't. In my personal experience, trace doesn't give me enough information to bother with it. When I do see it, it rarely tells if I'm high, low, left, right. I spent a lot of time working specifically on spotting trace from multitudes of positions using 115gr RDFs from a 6GT. Its very situational depending on environmentals, back drop, etc. I get feedback from the target exponentially more often. But try it, see if it works for you.

I just posted on this splash thing yesterday. Apples to apples, a lot of .224 rounds carry as much energy into the target as a lot of 6mm rounds. It depends on bullet selection and velocity. Having shot probably 15k worth of .224 rounds in PRS and practice in the last 3 years, I can honestly say I see little difference in impact or miss feedback.

 

[Baron85]

@Birddog6424

Thanks for the reply. My goal is cheaper ammo and better ballistics. Im not running a 22br but considering it for the next barrel. I started years ago with 308, then 6.5x47, and just recently started shooting PRS matches and built a 6br.

Why are you shooting the 22br over 6br or any other cartridge?

Positives?

Negatives?

I just picked up a tikka action off the PX and wanting to order a barrel as well as I’m about to restock on bullets and need to decide if I should order more 6mm or just enough to burn out my current 6br.

Thanks for all the input so far from everyone. Some good points to consider.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Fuck it. Do a 22br. Or 22dasher. It's just 1 barrel. U may love it. Try it.

 

[Birddog6424]

@Birddog6424

Thanks for the reply. My goal is cheaper ammo and better ballistics. Im not running a 22br but considering it for the next barrel. I started years ago with 308, then 6.5x47, and just recently started shooting PRS matches and built a 6br.

Why are you shooting the 22br over 6br or any other cartridge?

Positives?

Negatives?

I just picked up a tikka action off the PX and wanting to order a barrel as well as I’m about to restock on bullets and need to decide if I should order more 6mm or just enough to burn out my current 6br.

Thanks for all the input so far from everyone. Some good points to consider.

The 22BR is easy mode, just like a 6BR. One of the reasons I enjoy it. And it's inexpensive, which is another. It only takes 28 to 29grs of a good powder, 88gr ELDM at $130 for 500, and Lapua BR brass, which pretty much lasts forever. I've lost quite a few, but I've yet to wear a piece out.

An 88gr at 2990fps or 85.5gr at 3020fps is incredibly similar to a 6 Dasher in energy on target, wind deflection, barrel life, ease of load development, etc. You honestly wouldn't be able to see a performance difference shooting one versus the other.

 

[Baron85]

Thanks birddog. What freebore, twist and barrel length have you found to be optimal?

 

[Birddog6424]

Thanks birddog. What freebore, twist and barrel length have you found to be optimal?

I havent played with a lot of barrel lengths. My second barrel was 22" and I ran a can. I ran that barrel at .100 freebore with 28.5grs of Varget and it was great. Starting velocity was 2990fps and I ran that barrel right up to about 3000 rounds. It had dropped to 2920 fps or something in that neighborhood. I could have reworked the load to get my velocity back, but that barrel shot one hole throughout its lifespan, so I didnt touch it.

Every other barrel has been 26". And I've kind of landed on .130 freebore after trying several others. That gets me out into the neck and out of the case while allowing me to jump it a little. But I think anything from .105 to .130 is a good freebore.

I've run mostly 7" twist, but have a 7.5" on there now. No perceivable difference.

This video here is the last match I shot with that 3000 round barrel (pretty sure I "retired" that magazine after this match too). I shoot 5 shots at a TYL at 250 yards, then 5 shots at a TYL at 500 yards. The last target is 2" wide at 500 yards.

 

[samb300]

Some local guys shot 22 creed and 22 dasher a couple seasons ago. The 22 creed blew up bullets, and was so damn fast you’d pull the trigger and couldn’t make corrections, hit or miss.

Like stated above, not being able to spot your own trace and inconsistent impact calls from ROs will be a killer if you want to be competitive. Not to be a “follower” but if you go to a match and see what the top 20 people are shooting, chances are the majority will be shooting a slow-ish 6mm. It’s for a reason.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

A 109 Berger running 2800 and 2950 time of flight @ 600yds:

.73 and .77 seconds


Time if flight is highly unlikely to be the reason people see trace better. It’s an erroneous observation.

There’s definitely a trend (I run at 2800 as well) and reasons for slowing down. But time of flight is negligible.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

The human eye needs an *image* to be visible for 13 milliseconds which is .013

So, a difference of .04= 5% when .77.

At first glance that’s more than the .013 required. However that’s when shown an image and the brain has time to continue to process what they saw. As well as for those studies the subjects were shown progressively faster images so the eye/brain was “practicing.” Prior studies showed around 100 milliseconds needed. 13 milliseconds greatly reduces performance to a bit above chance.

So, that basically means you’re asking your eye and brain to process something moving 40 milliseconds slower on an image your brain is seeing for the first time, every time.

That’s a tall order. It’s possible some may be able to process it, but it won’t be widespread.

 

[ZY100]

I have zero need for a 22 BR but this thread has cost me $$. Looks like I am ordering a 1:7 blank and a SAC bushing.

One question—22BR (.255 nk, .100 or .120 fb, 24”) or 22BRA (same spec)? I shoot 6BRA (love it) and leaning towards the 22 BR/88 ELDM. I think the 22 BR does all I am looking for ~ 3000 fps (bang steel, practice, club matches). Any compelling reason to go 22 BRA? I do not see one.

Interested in any thoughts.

ZY

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Zev,

If i went this route, i'd go 22 Dasher and get those 88's around 3150fps. We get 3140-3160 out of the 95 SMK .243's with ease in the dasher

 

[samb300]

There's definitely something about slower bullets that might not be captured simply in milliseconds vs milliseconds. A 95 SMK going 3200 fps out of a 22 Creed takes 0.61 sec to go 600 yards. At closer distances especially, those things seem like they are impacting steel before you hear the bang.

I would theorize that the smaller dia of 22 vs 6mm, in addition to going faster, as well as a flatter flight path versus a taller arc, all add up to making it more difficult to spot your own shots.

Then you've always got the issue of the skill level of the spotter, the quality of glass the spotter is using, current atmospherics, and whether or not the steel has hit indicators.

Again, everyone can do their own thing, experiment, see what works, and have fun! But if 22 BR/Dasher/Creed actually increased impacts at PRS matches, top shooters would be using them. They're not.

Some good local shooters have actually gone the opposite direction. They went from 6 Dasher to 22 Dasher, and have since gone to 25 Dasher. 131s going 2600 fps are fatter, slower, still have a great BC, and result in more hits on steel due to easier self spotting even though it's more recoil than a 6 Dasher at 2800 fps.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

There's definitely something about slower bullets that might not be captured simply in milliseconds vs milliseconds. A 95 SMK going 3200 fps out of a 22 Creed takes 0.61 sec to go 600 yards. At closer distances especially, those things seem like they are impacting steel before you hear the bang.

I would theorize that the smaller dia of 22 vs 6mm, in addition to going faster, as well as a flatter flight path versus a taller arc, all add up to making it more difficult to spot your own shots.

Then you've always got the issue of the skill level of the spotter, the quality of glass the spotter is using, current atmospherics, and whether or not the steel has hit indicators.

Again, everyone can do their own thing, experiment, see what works, and have fun! But if 22 BR/Dasher/Creed actually increased impacts at PRS matches, top shooters would be using them. They're not.

Some good local shooters have actually gone the opposite direction. They went from 6 Dasher to 22 Dasher, and have since gone to 25 Dasher. 131s going 2600 fps are fatter, slower, still have a great BC, and result in more hits on steel due to easier self spotting even though it's more recoil than a 6 Dasher at 2800 fps.

Agreed. There’s also sectional density and other such things that go into it.

Ft/lbs energy isn’t the whole story. It’s a good part of it, but not the whole things.

But I also don’t buy the reason to go from say 2950fps to 2800fps on a 6mm is the time of flight to allow to see your trace better. I believe it’s a combination of things that some are trying to attribute to just a 5% change in velocity.

 

[samb300]

You heard it here first. 5 years from now PRS will have evolved back to its foundation: God’s cartridge, the 6.5x47L.

 

[samb300]

Agreed. There’s also sectional density and other such things that go into it.

Ft/lbs energy isn’t the whole story. It’s a good part of it, but not the whole things.

But I also don’t buy the reason to go from say 2950fps to 2800fps on a 6mm is the time of flight to allow to see your trace better. I believe it’s a combination of things that some are trying to attribute to just a 5% change in velocity.

Does a faster bullet generate more or less “trace” than the same bullet going slower?

If it’s not a time of flight thing, then what is it? Is it bullet flight arc being taller on the slow bullet, giving more vertical space in the scope to see it?

As for the time thing, there has to be more to it. Like for hitting a baseball. A lot of pros might struggle with a 100mph pitch, which (rough math) arrives at the plate in 0.409 sec. A 90 mph pitch is likely much easier for a pro to hit, and arrives at the plate in 0.455 sec.

That 46 millisecond difference just so happens to be about the same time difference in your example of 2950 vs 2800 fps at 600 yds.

 

[MDof2]

I just posted on this splash thing yesterday. Apples to apples, a lot of .224 rounds carry as much energy into the target as a lot of 6mm rounds. It depends on bullet selection and velocity. Having shot probably 15k worth of .224 rounds in PRS and practice in the last 3 years, I can honestly say I see little difference in impact or miss feedback.

This is of great interest to me as I've been fondling the idea of a 22GT after shooting 6GT in PRS for a bit now.
Wanted something to tinker with comparatively with 22-250 which I hunt with and shoot a fair amount of, but never considered competing with it obviously due to the velocity of 22-250. 22GT fits in that window and checks the boxes for [x] fun project [x] velocity, [x] domain knowledge [x] because why not. So reading your thread caught my eye.

My debate in using the 224 projectile in comps was splash / shot spotting at 1000+ yards and in particular steel that doesn't have shot indicators on them and being able to spot hits or misses with some level of certainty.

So you're seeing 88's trace/splash much like your 105's (or similar) out of your Dasher?

 

[Birddog6424]

Here's my speculation, at the risk of being flamed.

Spotting trace rarely does anything for anyone. Top shooter, bottom shooter, you name it. It's simply something that has become cool to discuss and claim as beneficial.

I think moving to slower, easy accuracy, easy to tune, low recoil 6mms down from the 6.5s we used to run made every shooter a little better, a little more consistent. Along with that came lower recoil, and suddenly guys were seeing trace. The likelihood of spotting trace on a slow 2800fps round is no greater than seeing trace on a 2920fps round. But guys started seeing it, thought it was cool, started claiming you need to shoot a slow round to see it and make corrections, and suddenly it's all the rage.

I'll stick out my neck and say that spotting trace for a millisecond at apogee as it travels through the center one third of its flight path tells me nothing about where it's going. Unless by that distance its clearly off by a country mile. Add to that the difficult to even spot trace based on so many variables, and we now have something that is attributed as being far more valuable than it truly is.

I had this conversation with a shooter who has finished top 5 in the PRS the last two years in a row. He was actually far more disparaging of the spot trace theory than I have been here. So I know I share this opinion with at least one other person

 

[MDof2]

Agreed on all points.
I probably should have dropped trace, and just left splash in there.
At the end of the day, the RO calls impacts on splash and target movement, not trace.

 

[samb300]

I think trace is all you’ve got when you miss and have no way to see splash due to tall grass, skylined targets, or whatever else. You end up guessing “more or less wind?”

Not every range/match is a square range with dirt berms directly behind the target.

I don’t see trace very often, it’s definitely a skill and I do believe optic choice plays some part of it. I shoot suppressed, so the additional rifle movement compared to a brake makes things even more difficult, but I’d rather not go deaf so it’s the choice I make haha

 

[Birddog6424]

This is of great interest to me as I've been fondling the idea of a 22GT after shooting 6GT in PRS for a bit now.
Wanted something to tinker with comparatively with 22-250 which I hunt with and shoot a fair amount of, but never considered competing with it obviously due to the velocity of 22-250. 22GT fits in that window and checks the boxes for [x] fun project [x] velocity, [x] domain knowledge [x] because why not. So reading your thread caught my eye.

My debate in using the 224 projectile in comps was splash / shot spotting at 1000+ yards and in particular steel that doesn't have shot indicators on them and being able to spot hits or misses with some level of certainty.

So you're seeing 88's trace/splash much like your 105's (or similar) out of your Dasher?

Yes, I see little difference. Energy downrange is super close with many .224s and .243s.

Bear in mind, a lot of what happens in PRS is a case of monkey see, monkey say, monkey do. Even in this thread someone has pointed out that the top shooters all shoot slow moving 6mms, there must be a reason for that. Or another person says there must be a reason top shooters aren't shooting 22 calibers. So newer and experienced shooters alike leave this thread thinking here's what top shooters are doing, there's a reason for that. They may even post a week later on a similar thread and repeat what they read, until everyone is saying it.

The reality is Austin, Morgun, Jake, Jon, etc, are going to win with any competitive rifle. The reasons being they practice, they have great fundamentals, they are experienced, they are skilled. Dan Bertochinni kicked the crap out of us at the Hornady PRC a few years ago running a .284.

You slap a 22 Dasher running a .305 G7 BC 90gr Atip at 3080fps in any of those guys hands, and they will continue to dominate. That cartridge outperforms the 6 BR/Dasher/GT. It carries as much energy downrange as any of those 6s. It shoots flatter and carries further. And it has 2k plus barrel life.

So be open minded to the fact that there are a lot of good high performing cartridges. What the top shooter is shooting doesn't mean it's exclusively the only cartridge that can perform at that level. They're at the top for other reasons as well.

 

[MDof2]

Completely agree. If a guy showed up and started stacking stages with a quarter hole gun, there'd be a run on 25 cal barrels and it would be all the rage. 6mm would be a lost memory before the next match was on the schedule.

My question and curiosity earlier and what caught me eye was simply from the ballistics side, nothing to do with shooter, environment, skillset, etc.

Appreciate the info, feedback and such from your experience on the 22BR.

 

[samb300]

Yes, I see little difference. Energy downrange is super close with many .224s and .243s.

Bear in mind, a lot of what happens in PRS is a case of monkey see, monkey say, monkey do. Even in this thread someone has pointed out that the top shooters all shoot slow moving 6mms, there must be a reason for that. Or another person says there must be a reason top shooters aren't shooting 22 calibers. So newer and experienced shooters alike leave this thread thinking here's what top shooters are doing, there's a reason for that. They may even post a week later on a similar thread and repeat what they read, until everyone is saying it.

The reality is Austin, Morgun, Jake, Jon, etc, are going to win with any competitive rifle. The reasons being they practice, they have great fundamentals, they are experienced, they are skilled. Dan Bertochinni kicked the crap out of us at the Hornady PRC a few years ago running a .284.

You slap a 22 Dasher running a .305 G7 BC 90gr Atip at 3080fps in any of those guys hands, and they will continue to dominate. That cartridge outperforms the 6 BR/Dasher/GT. It carries as much energy downrange as any of those 6s. It shoots flatter and carries further. And it has 2k plus barrel life.

So be open minded to the fact that there are a lot of good high performing cartridges. What the top shooter is shooting doesn't mean it's exclusively the only cartridge that can perform at that level. They're at the top for other reasons as well.

Then why don't any of those guys shoot 22 Dasher?

Why do many of them continually talk about watching every shot, how important trace is, shoot heavy braked rifles, etc?

I'm just playing devil's advocate, as I'm nowhere near being a top shooter. While I agree completely that there is a herd mentality in PRS, I don't think all of it is without reason. Jake Vibbert has been talking about slow 6mm's for seeing trace for years, I don't think he'd be doing it himself without a tested and validated reason.

Pros in any sport can beat weekend warriors with relative ease regardless of equipment. But when pros go against other pros, they use the equipment that they feel will keep them on level playing field or give them a slight edge.

 

[Sheldon N]

Completely agree. If a guy showed up and started stacking stages with a quarter hole gun, there'd be a run on 25 cal barrels and it would be all the rage. 6mm would be a lost memory before the next match was on the schedule.

For sure popularity swings based on what the winning PRS shooters are using, there is a ton of that in this sport. However, I think there's an underlying reason why we've gravitated towards the 6mm Dasher or 6BRA. Those cartridges have a very long history in benchrest shooting of being able to shoot the smallest groups at 1k yards and being generally easy to do load development for. The benchrest community has experimented a ton with all sort of calibers and wildcats, and if they could make a 22 Dasher shoot smaller than a 6BRA at 1k you bet they'd be all over it.

I know I went 6BRA because of the results they were getting with it, before it had caught on in the PRS side of things.

 

[KnowNothing256]

For sure popularity swings based on what the winning PRS shooters are using, there is a ton of that in this sport. However, I think there's an underlying reason why we've gravitated towards the 6mm Dasher or 6BRA. Those cartridges have a very long history in benchrest shooting of being able to shoot the smallest groups at 1k yards and being generally easy to do load development for. The benchrest community has experimented a ton with all sort of calibers and wildcats, and if they could make a 22 Dasher shoot smaller than a 6BRA at 1k you bet they'd be all over it.

I know I went 6BRA because of the results they were getting with it, before it had caught on in the PRS side of things.

Is there any chance the 22-cal bullets that could perform/compete at those ranges weren’t developed until much more recently, long after the 6BR family established its reputation?

I honestly don’t know when the 88gr ELDM or 85.5 LRHT hit the scene, but I think it’s been fairly recent?

 

[b6graham]

Is there any chance the 22-cal bullets that could perform/compete at those ranges weren’t developed until much more recently, long after the 6BR family established its reputation?

I honestly don’t know when the 88gr ELDM or 85.5 LRHT hit the scene, but I think it’s been fairly recent?

not that recent for the 88. the LRHT is relatively more recent

the 90/95 sierra/berger have been around for a long time

 

[AIKNOWU]

The best shooters don't just consistently shoot 6mmBR-based cartridges. They consistently shoot 105 Hybrids.
When discussing the 6 Dasher vs 22 Anything, you're comparing what is probably the finest mass-produced precision bullet ever to roll off an assembly line to an average match bullet. 88s are fine, but they're not great. 90SMKs are awesome, but they're several steps behind a 105 Hybrid. Even the 85.5 leaves something on the table.
6mm Dasher, BR, BRX, Creedmoor, BRA, whatever. Cast a wide net: Bergers are what win.

 

[b6graham]

The best shooters don't just consistently shoot 6mmBR-based cartridges. They consistently shoot 105 Hybrids.
When discussing the 6 Dasher vs 22 Anything, you're comparing what is probably the finest mass-produced precision bullet ever to roll off an assembly line to an average match bullet. 88s are fine, but they're not great. 90SMKs are awesome, but they're several steps behind a 105 Hybrid. Even the 85.5 leaves something on the table.
6mm Dasher, BR, BRX, Creedmoor, BRA, whatever. Cast a wide net: Bergers are what win.

except for everyone shooting 110 ATips...

 

[AIKNOWU]

Ali crushes with a 16lb Creedmoor and DTACs at 3100.
I think Haas scored a point last season in F1.
I know a redhead who hasn't left her 3 most recent boyfriends broke and emotionally destroyed.

 

[AIKNOWU]

Preston shoots A-Tips, and would probably win with 108 ELDs. Orgain shot A-Tips last year or two, and same deal.
Cast the wide net and see what turns up as the consistently winningest bullet in this sport. If you haven't tried a 105 Hybrid, you should give them a try. They're outstanding.

 

[Birddog6424]

Then why don't any of those guys shoot 22 Dasher?

Why do many of them continually talk about watching every shot, how important trace is, shoot heavy braked rifles, etc?

I'm just playing devil's advocate, as I'm nowhere near being a top shooter. While I agree completely that there is a herd mentality in PRS, I don't think all of it is without reason. Jake Vibbert has been talking about slow 6mm's for seeing trace for years, I don't think he'd be doing it himself without a tested and validated reason.

Pros in any sport can beat weekend warriors with relative ease regardless of equipment. But when pros go against other pros, they use the equipment that they feel will keep them on level playing field or give them a slight edge.

Maybe we will see guys move to a 22 Dasher. I know of a couple guys who have moved from 6 Dashers to 22 Dashers in the last 6 months. The below post and Sheldon make great points on why it's not all the rage. Bullet development for 6mms far outpaced the .224 caliber until very recently. The 85.5gr LRHT and 90gr Atip allow .224s to perform at the highest level of the sport. Both of those bullets are pretty new. And the 6mms were VERY well established in other venues, making the BR and all its variants an easy selection with a wide knowledge base of support. The .224s don't have that. There hasn't been a bullet of sufficient quality and BC to run those little groups at 1000 yards like Sheldon's 6BRA or Dashers. Most everything in that caliber lacked PRS usability (Berger VLD) or had inconsistent standard deviation of BC, which is indicative of poorer quality control. But thats changing.

But again, it doesnt mean 22s are not as good. That they aren't a viable option. Theres still a LOT of bad information going around about the caliber because it doesnt have a large knowledge base. Splash downrange is the one I see all the time and people repeat it without knowledge. Along with "it dies off after 800 yards". Anyone looking at them will see they carry as far if not further than BR variants. So misinformation is huge.

I love Jake, great guy. He is an amazing instructor as well as a shooter, but the trace thing simply doesn't hold up for everyone. I got much better at follow through and spotting my impacts and misses after helping him teach a class at my range. He had some incredibly good drills i have adapted for follow through and correction. None of that involved spotting trace, just good follow through and watch for you shot. Solid fundementals. For trace he has practiced it, and it works for him. As situational as it is he still sees value in it. But not everyone agrees. There are still a lot of good shooters who have tried it and written it off. I can only advise someone to not take my word or anyone else's word on the value of it. Practice it and find out for yourself.

Is there any chance the 22-cal bullets that could perform/compete at those ranges weren’t developed until much more recently, long after the 6BR family established its reputation?

I honestly don’t know when the 88gr ELDM or 85.5 LRHT hit the scene, but I think it’s been fairly recent?

Spot on.

 

[Mormegil87]

The other reason I personally shoot 6mm and specifically BRA, is consistency. I shoot in the same club @samb300 shoots and I've watched guys jump on that 22 train, whether it's Dasher, Creed or some other flavor and jump right back into a 6BR variant again. It seemed like the guys that used 22 cals seemed to have issues with consistency and bullets and that has me sticking with my BRA. I can literally just load any shoot.

If a guy wants to shoot a 22 cal. All the more power to him. Just like 6s, it won't be a magic pill. You'll need to put the work in.

 

[samb300]

The argument of "he could win with X instead of Y" needs to stop. Pros will use whatever they can to get a perceived edge. Someone that can win the AG Cup isn't going to shoot 108 ELDMs if a 110 A-Tip exists, has a better BC, and is more consistent.

They can beat YOU with a 108 ELDM, but it doesn't mean they can beat the guy next to them at a national level match that's frequently decided by single digit impacts.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

IDK.. The 22 Dasher intrigues me, especially shooting in the region i regularly shoot in but Im pretty heavily invested in 6 Dasher and would be hard to for me to justify switching right now. Maybe once all of my 6mm's are gone, i'll look into it but the money is already spent and barrels are already spun. I am going to play with some .223 Rem in the AI, but that doesn't take the place of my dasher.

Maybe one day.

 

[samb300]

The other reason I personally shoot 6mm and specifically BRA, is consistency. I shoot in the same club @samb300 shoots and I've watched guys jump on that 22 train, whether it's Dasher, Creed or some other flavor and jump right back into a 6BR variant again. It seemed like the guys that used 22 cals seemed to have issues with consistency and bullets and that has me sticking with my BRA. I can literally just load any shoot.

If a guy wants to shoot a 22 cal. All the more power to him. Just like 6s, it won't be a magic pill. You'll need to put the work in.

We also shoot where there are few stages that have good impact berms. A 100 point COF match can easily be lost with one bad stage, if your bullets start going into the ether and you can't make an educated correction, your day is done.

I spotted some stages that were 3-400 yards where buddies were shooting 22 Dasher/Creed. It's jarring how quickly the bullets are moving and impacting compared to a typical 2700 fps 6.5 Creed or 2900 fps Dasher. Your brain just has less time to process what its seeing through the scope. 400 milliseconds vs 500 milliseconds for a 22 vs 6/6.5 might not seem like a lot, but remember a human eye takes 400 milliseconds to blink. Better not flinch when you pull the trigger.

Consistency with 22s is another great point. For pros it could come down to the challenge of being consistent over a 2-300 round weekend, same as it was when 6 SLRs and fast 6 Creed was the rage. One guy was blowing up bullets at 1-day club matches even with cleaning the 22 Creed after each match.

Maybe I'll build a 30 BR

 

[BLKWLFK9]

We also shoot where there are few stages that have good impact berms. A 100 point COF match can easily be lost with one bad stage, if your bullets start going into the ether and you can't make an educated correction, your day is done.

I spotted some stages that were 3-400 yards where buddies were shooting 22 Dasher/Creed. It's jarring how quickly the bullets are moving and impacting compared to a typical 2700 fps 6.5 Creed or 2900 fps Dasher. Your brain just has less time to process what its seeing through the scope. 400 milliseconds vs 500 milliseconds for a 22 vs 6/6.5 might not seem like a lot, but remember a human eye takes 400 milliseconds to blink. Better not flinch when you pull the trigger.

Consistency with 22s is another great point. For pros it could come down to the challenge of being consistent over a 2-300 round weekend, same as it was when 6 SLRs and fast 6 Creed was the rage. One guy was blowing up bullets at 1-day club matches even with cleaning the 22 Creed after each match.

Maybe I'll build a 30 BR

25 Dasher.

 

[Mormegil87]

The argument of "he could win with X instead of Y" needs to stop. Pros will use whatever they can to get a perceived edge. Someone that can win the AG Cup isn't going to shoot 108 ELDMs if a 110 A-Tip exists, has a better BC, and is more consistent.

They can beat YOU with a 108 ELDM, but it doesn't mean they can beat the guy next to them at a national level match that's frequently decided by single digit impacts.

Thank you. I'm so sick to death of the "they will win with anything" point. They use what they use because they perceive that it gives them an edge. This sport isn't any different from other sports. If a guy thinks something will give him an edge over his competition, he'll use it.

 

[Birddog6424]

The argument of "he could win with X instead of Y" needs to stop. Pros will use whatever they can to get a perceived edge. Someone that can win the AG Cup isn't going to shoot 108 ELDMs if a 110 A-Tip exists, has a better BC, and is more consistent.

They can beat YOU with a 108 ELDM, but it doesn't mean they can beat the guy next to them at a national level match that's frequently decided by single digit impacts.

If they are looking for an edge, take a look at this..

This is a 110gr Atip at 2880fps at 1200 yards. There's a 10mph full value crosser. The round has 472ftlbs of energy and is going 1370fps at the target.



This is a 90gr Atip at 3080fps at the same distance and environmentals. It has 455ftlbs of energy and is going 1508fps at the target. Its faster, will carry further, has less drop, less wind, and over 2k barrel life.




I'm not saying to anyone, "shoot this, it's better" That's not my point. I'm saying the .224 is a viable option for anyone who wants to set one up, whether your a top shooter or mid packer. We know so much about the 6mms that they are the easy choice. But its not accurate to think they are the only choice.

 

[Mormegil87]

25 Dasher.

We have two dudes in our club that run it. Those two, @samb300 and myself are usually direct competitors with each other at matches. Sam runs a GT and I run a BRA, I don't think the BRA gives up much to the. 25s. I know one of the guys was having consistency issues with one of the brands of .25 cal bullets

 

[samb300]

25 Dasher.

That's what my buddies that formerly shot 22 have gone to.

Unfortunately the 131 Ace's don't exist (or didn't in 2021), and they didn't have as good of luck with the Berger 135 Hybrid. Not that 105/109 Hybrids are easy to get in the current market, but there's much bigger support for 6mm than .25

 

[samb300]

If they are looking for an edge, take a look at this..

This is a 110gr Atip at 2880fps at 1200 yards. There's a 10mph full value crosser. The round has 472ftlbs of energy and is going 1370fps at the target.



This is a 90gr Atip at 3080fps at the same distance and environmentals. It has 455ftlbs of energy and is going 1508fps at the target. Its faster, will carry further, has less drop, less wind, and over 2k barrel life.



Pretty crazy...

Honest question, how consistent is a 22 cal barrel shooting near 3100 fps over a 3 day weekend?

And how many shots at a typical 2-day PRS match are at 1200 yards?

Aren't most targets in the 4-700 yard range, where a slower bullet with more trace would be more adventageous?

 

[BLKWLFK9]

the 25 dasher wont do a whole lot with wind deflection but as long as we are talking about spotting trace, the black jack or berger will be a trace monster compared to the 6 or 22.