22lr Ammo testing long range vs short.

[Gleedus]

Things were getting so far off topic so rather then clutter the good conversation over there I'll start a new discussion.

The main question is if your shooting long range with a 22lr is ammo testing at 100 yards and closer ideal?
Or should you be testing at 200 yards?

My experiences have persuaded me that for testing long range performance requires testing at 150 yds or more.

I am not a BR shooter and will not pretend to be.
Rifle in question is a RimX with a 26" IBI barrel and calfee 4 chamber in a MDT ACC chassis. Shooting is done prone off of a Atlas cal bypod and a rear bag. Properly set up I have a almost perfect return to POA.

My testing method is as follows.

First I foul the bore with the new ammo type by confirming drop at 200 yds on a steel plate 10 rounds
The I shoot 10 shot groups at 50 yards typically 3
I then shoot 20 shot groups at 200 yards typically 2-3.
If its obvious the ammo is a no go I'll stop at 1.
I will then repeat this process a second day.

I may go back and shoot several 200 yard groups with the top few to confirm depending on results.

A few concerns to address.

Consistency of shooting fundamentals is very crucial. I have shot 1000s of rounds at 50 yards simply messing with my position to ensure a consistent POI. I have never shot from a bench so dont know how that compares. But am confident I can be consistent now.

Wind and the effects particularly at long range.
I shoot in a open field and live beside a wind turbine. When the "upper" wind and ground wind are the same direction we have fairly consistent conditions. A average day is 8-10 mpr wind. On a nice day it will normally be a 4-6 mpr wind. I'm setup so that the prevailing wind is 8-9 o'clock. I do not shoot over flags I tried but it makes my head hurt... not sure how you guys do that!

Due to always having some form of wind to deal with when testing at longer ranges I only compare the vertical group size.

I wondered if a wind changes vertical group size so I ran a small test. My results show the same vertical size regardless of wind speed if close to a 9 o'clock. The difficult part is keeping POI on paper with gusts.

Being mag fed I can quickly shoot a condition. I will first figure out if we have long gusts or lulls then I will start shooting as we enter a lull or gust for the longest shooting window.

Reading Groups.

I look at the SD of the long range groups as this eliminates the fliers skewing the results and gives me the "odds" of hitting. Typically 4x the SD is the ES so my 20 shot group ES should cover 90% of my shots.

Expensive ammo seldom shoots better then mid level ammo at 200 yds. But the better ammo has less fliers usually. This is not always the case. When the better ammo doesnt shoot as good as the mid level normally its a uniform group not just a flier that makes it worse.
At 50 yds the expensive ammo basically always wins.
I can have two ammo that shoot 1 moa at 50 but at 200 one is 1.6 and the other 3.5 moa

What are your results from testing ammo? What is your test procedure for a long range rig?

 

[littlepod]

From listening to the Lapua and Applied Ballistics talk, they basically look at group size at 50 yards, and then the lowest ES = the best groups at distance. ES is king when you're talking about groups at distance. 50 yard groups is just making sure the harmonics are good with the ammo.

 

[Gleedus]

At this point my personal testing doesnt agree. Why? I'm not sure. Here are some of my thoughts.

Velocity variation has been mentioned consider also BC variations and possible bullet weight variation.
Normal BC variation in vertical is almost as much as the velocity will affect it. Also the bullet weight will have an affect at even longer distances.

Lets consider the Eley force.
In my case 1.6 MOA at 211 yds is my average 20 shot group size.

Velocity ES was 61 fps
BC variation is typically 0.005 bc SD so reasonable to expect a 0.02 bc variation in a large sample.
Bullet weight can vary up to 2 gr as well. Now of course statistically we will probably never see two extremes together it will be a mix. Looking at the effects at different distances we can see they all have a different impact on the vertical group size.

At 50 yards
Velocity = 0.5 moa
BC = 0.1 moa
Weight = 0 moa

200 yards
Velocity = 2.25 moa
BC = 1.8 moa
Weight = 0.5 moa

400 yards
Velocity = 3.9 moa
BC = 6.2 moa
Weight = 1.6 MOA
So that weight sorting thing that makes no sense at 50 yards.... yes I know the arguments... test it!!

As we can see many of these other details that dont show up at 50 start showing up more and more as we move out it distance. At 50 yards velocity is a big deal at 200 bc and velocity are almost the same. At 400 BC is the big deal.

I specifically picked Force for this example as it is the only ammo in my testing that has less vertical at 200 then the velocity spread.

Contact is 41 fps ES so 2 moa at 200 yds and my average groups size is running 2.1 moa.

SK Rifle Match 48 fps ES so 2.3 moa at 200 and my group size are running 3 moa.

Is there something to positive compensation with out a tuner and the force happens to hit that? I do know that ammo base to ogive that measures 0.776" + shoots best at 200 but at 50 I see no difference.

 

[Rimdenter]

You've opened up a Pandoras Box on this and No doubt theres people on here, far more qualified then me to give you a answere. Many years ago when I lived in a distant land ! California my dad by chance one day ran into a man he became very good friends with and was regularly at his shop. This was part of the equation he was trying to solve. The theroy was the heavier the bullet he could push faster, the less effects would impact it his name was Roy Weatherby. This is an effect we all deal with , those that strive for optimum accuracy know this. Now everything that effects time of flight, anything thing that can change POI ,the list is to long ,but basics you've covered veloicty, bullet weight, wind ,humidity, temps and so on. Now things you haven't covered the gyroscopic stability of the bullet your using ,bullet shape , imperfections in projectile variance in the surface of the drive band, the tackiness of lubrication all of these effect POI. Long story short A Ford Escape will always out run a top fuel funny car in a 3 mile race ! Their both designed for different results. Find you a combo that's solid at 300yds your gonna need a different barrel most likely, and everything up close wont matter I shoot different bullets at different yardage why their stability is better out of that barrel.

 

[justin amateur]

Cartridge quality will determine y'er results.
After documenting almost 3 years of rimfire at 200 yards,
I blame the majority of my strays on the ammunition.
50 shot groups, across a chronograph, with careful visual inspection of the ammunition before chambering.
Vertical spread matches muzzle velocity spread, odd strays directly related to visibly defective cartridges.
Wind flags help most of the time, except when dealing with rolling turbulence,
in which case you have no idea what is going to happen.

If you really want to understand why those odd strays show up,
take a very close look at y'er ammunition. When it's covered in dents, dings,
scratches, uneven or irregular seating, non-uniform drive bands, stovepipes,
bullet material compressed down past the crimp onto the brass,
visibly different cartridge lengths aren't going to provide consistent trajectories.
If y'er ammunition is visibly different cartridge by cartridge, y'er results will be also.
The lessons learned in reloading centerfire for precision, apply to rimfire cartridges.

 

[Rimdenter]

Cartridge quality will determine y'er results.
After documenting almost 3 years of rimfire at 200 yards,
I blame the majority of my strays on the ammunition.
50 shot groups, across a chronograph, with careful visual inspection of the ammunition before chambering.
Vertical spread matches muzzle velocity spread, odd strays directly related to visibly defective cartridges.
Wind flags help most of the time, except when dealing with rolling turbulence,
in which case you have no idea what is going to happen.

If you really want to understand why those odd strays show up,
take a very close look at y'er ammunition. When it's covered in dents, dings,
scratches, uneven or irregular seating, non-uniform drive bands, stovepipes,
bullet material compressed down past the crimp onto the brass,
visibly different cartridge lengths aren't going to provide consistent trajectories.
If y'er ammunition is visibly different cartridge by cartridge, y'er results will be also.
The lessons learned in reloading centerfire for precision, apply to rimfire cartridges.

Did you notice if on average if your lower fps impacts were opposite of zero related to your higher fps impacts in a left to right comparison?

 

[justin amateur]

Didn't see that RD. Likely hidden by my mistiming the squeeze during wind shifts.
What I did see was when I caught a low impact it showed up on the chrony as a low mv.
Catch a high stray and that chrony number was higher than average also.

 

[Rimdenter]

Copy that ,that might be something I try before rebarreling, building a dummy action block like laupa and mounting it in my kurt vise and bolting it to my steel bench. I could proably get it zeroed at 200yds by tweaking it . Set me couple of tenths indicators on the side and top of crown put my camcorder on them and send a hundred rounds thru the chronograph. I could slow down the video to review barrel movement in relation to velocity and impact. I'll proably find out how poor of a rifle shot I am ? I might hold off on that.

 

[grauhanen]

A key problem in testing at 200 yards is that the results are less reliable than they are at 100.

Here's why.

There's much more that can "go wrong" at 200 yards than at half that distance. Every factor that militates against consistent accuracy at 100 yards -- and there are a lot of them -- is magnified at 200. Even if the shooter and rifle is taken out of the equation and perfect shot execution is assumed for every round tested and the rifle was assumed to shoot perfectly, the most basic evaluation of 200 yard results would have to account for all causes of inaccuracy.

Two of the basics are gravity and wind. While variation in ES is an obvious factor, there's little that can be done, except to use ammo with the best ES and SD. The wind is the most unpredictable factor. A one or two mph change in wind speed is barely noticeable on the face, but it makes itself felt on the POI down range. With .22LR, it's very difficult to account for the effect of wind changes the greater the distance. It can be tough enough at 50 yards, let alone 100 or 200. To be sure, wind drift can be minimized by using ammo with a higher BC, but it doesn't provide the solution to unexpected and unaccounted wind drift. For each 1 mph of crosswind at 200 yards, an SV bullet with a BC of .117 will drift 1.8" while a bullet with a BC of .161 will drift about 1.4".

Another problem is any inaccuracies caused by the ammo, other than variation caused by gravity and wind drift. These are impossible to anticipate or easily account for. They may include a combination of accuracy-reducing problems such as variation in component consistency, bullet seating and concentricity and crimp concentricity. Such sources of inaccuracy will also be magnified at twice the distance and they can't be readily anticipated. They only reveal themselves as unexpected results on the target. The shooter can't tell if results are skewed because of wind or flaws not visible or easily detected in the ammo itself. To see more about this, see the excellent information, including illuminating and very instructive gifs, posted by "the Stowaway" here, beginning on Dec. 6, 2020 and continuing to recent days 22 LR Bullet Sorting | Page 4 | Shooters' Forum (accurateshooter.com)

There's nothing about .22LR ammo that will make one ammo that produces better results at 100 yards than another suddenly produce worse results at 200 yards than the ammo it bested at half the distance. If five or ten rounds of a certain lot of ammo make it in good shape to 100 yards and produce good results, they will do well further out. No ammo can self-correct as it continues down range. If a .22LR ammo produces 1 MOA results at 100 it won't be able to produce 1 MOA or better at 200. Similarly, if a .22LR ammo produces 1.5 MOA results at 100 it won't equal or better than at 200. That's because .22LR accuracy is not linear. It gets worse with distance. Some random sets of five or ten rounds in some lots get worse slower than others between 50 and 100, but it's not for predictable reasons and it won't occur in all rifles.

As a result, it's not possible to say that a certain variety of a certain brand of ammo will always behave this way if it did on occasion in the past. In other words, if one lot of Center X or Eley Force produced a slower rate of group size growth with a certain rifle it doesn't mean that all lots of Center X or Eley Force will behave similarly.

Even if the shooter and rifle are not considered, ammo that produces good results at 100 yards is the ammo that should be counted on to produce good results at 200.

For a look at how ammo testing at 50 and 100 can compare, see the results in this thread (2) .22lr lot testing at Lapua's indoor 100m test facility. What should you expect in gains? - Snipers Hide | Sniper's Hide Forum and 2020219testdata10rif.jpg (1920×721) (cubeupload.com) Note that it's impossible to compare results between rifles as one rifle's lot 1 may not be the same as another's lot 1.

 

[Gleedus]

Its that rate of growth I'm interested in.

I have never seen ammo shoot a smaller moa at further distance. That includes centerfire and rimfire.

Rimdenters thought on stability is of interest to me. Hopefully have a faster twist here by summer.

It is very possible that a BR setup being so much more accurate allows the ammo flaws to show at 50 yards? A setup like mine simply cant? But at distance it shows up?

If we only look at the vertical at distance that seems to eliminate most wind effects from my testing. Now looking at BR do you see vertical from a 9 o'clock wind?

 

[Gleedus]

Justin have you every directly compared same lot # 50 and 200? If I'd go through your box at threads maybe I could piece together?

 

[Gleedus]

A key problem in testing at 200 yards is that the results are less reliable than they are at 100.

Here's why.

There's much more that can "go wrong" at 200 yards than at half that distance. Every factor that militates against consistent accuracy at 100 yards -- and there are a lot of them -- is magnified at 200. Even if the shooter and rifle is taken out of the equation and perfect shot execution is assumed for every round tested and the rifle was assumed to shoot perfectly, the most basic evaluation of 200 yard results would have to account for all causes of inaccuracy.

Two of the basics are gravity and wind. While variation in ES is an obvious factor, there's little that can be done, except to use ammo with the best ES and SD. The wind is the most unpredictable factor. A one or two mph change in wind speed is barely noticeable on the face, but it makes itself felt on the POI down range. With .22LR, it's very difficult to account for the effect of wind changes the greater the distance. It can be tough enough at 50 yards, let alone 100 or 200. To be sure, wind drift can be minimized by using ammo with a higher BC, but it doesn't provide the solution to unexpected and unaccounted wind drift. For each 1 mph of crosswind at 200 yards, an SV bullet with a BC of .117 will drift 1.8" while a bullet with a BC of .161 will drift about 1.4".

Another problem is any inaccuracies caused by the ammo, other than variation caused by gravity and wind drift. These are impossible to anticipate or easily account for. They may include a combination of accuracy-reducing problems such as variation in component consistency, bullet seating and concentricity and crimp concentricity. Such sources of inaccuracy will also be magnified at twice the distance and they can't be readily anticipated. They only reveal themselves as unexpected results on the target. The shooter can't tell if results are skewed because of wind or flaws not visible or easily detected in the ammo itself. To see more about this, see the excellent information, including illuminating and very instructive gifs, posted by "the Stowaway" here, beginning on Dec. 6, 2020 and continuing to recent days 22 LR Bullet Sorting | Page 4 | Shooters' Forum (accurateshooter.com)

There's nothing about .22LR ammo that will make one ammo that produces better results at 100 yards than another suddenly produce worse results at 200 yards than the ammo it bested at half the distance. If five or ten rounds of a certain lot of ammo make it in good shape to 100 yards and produce good results, they will do well further out. No ammo can self-correct as it continues down range. If a .22LR ammo produces 1 MOA results at 100 it won't be able to produce 1 MOA or better at 200. Similarly, if a .22LR ammo produces 1.5 MOA results at 100 it won't equal or better than at 200. That's because .22LR accuracy is not linear. It gets worse with distance. Some random sets of five or ten rounds in some lots get worse slower than others between 50 and 100, but it's not for predictable reasons and it won't occur in all rifles.

As a result, it's not possible to say that a certain variety of a certain brand of ammo will always behave this way if it did on occasion in the past. In other words, if one lot of Center X or Eley Force produced a slower rate of group size growth with a certain rifle it doesn't mean that all lots of Center X or Eley Force will behave similarly.

Even if the shooter and rifle are not considered, ammo that produces good results at 100 yards is the ammo that should be counted on to produce good results at 200.

For a look at how ammo testing at 50 and 100 can compare, see the results in this thread (2) .22lr lot testing at Lapua's indoor 100m test facility. What should you expect in gains? - Snipers Hide | Sniper's Hide Forum and 2020219testdata10rif.jpg (1920×721) (cubeupload.com) Note that it's impossible to compare results between rifles as one rifle's lot 1 may not be the same as another's lot 1.

Thanks for the accurate shooters link.... thats interesting!

 

[justin amateur]

SK Biathlon Sport, same brick, 50, 100, 200 yards.
Fits my half third rule of thumb.
50 shot groups, outdoors, wood bench
CZ 455 Lilja, set trigger, Sinclair Bipod, Mueller 8-32x44
5" spread at 200 yards
1.7 inch at 100 yards
0.6 inch at 50 yards

 

[Gleedus]

I dont have much 100 yard data saved. Maybe I should add that?
If I look at 3 decent ammo I have some 100 yard data for (Eley Force , Contact, SK Rifle match) for I'm very simular 0.6" 1.7" 5" oh wait thats the same. average on many ammo.
50 = 0.6"
100 = 1.75"
200 = 5.8"
400 = 25"

 

[Rimdenter]

Visualize a quarter spinning on its edge as it slows down it wobbles then walks to a place then stops a bullet is no different. The exact center of the tip and base creates a axis the twist in a barrel imparts spin to stablelize the mass about that axis. The shape and relation of mass either adds to or takes away from the effective continued rotation. Then it starts to wobble kinda like the quarter. You know the ole saying where your nose is pointed that's where your ass will hit ? Same applies to bullets

 

[pete_f]

Here is a link to some information that you fellows should find interesting if you have not seen it.

Smallbore accuracy

 

[Rimdenter]

Very good studies and factual reads!
Thank you

 

[DaveCo]

I recently ran across an article on the robustness, information quality from looking at extreme spread versus dispersion (of each shot) from the mean.

Precision & Group Size – Statistics for Shooters Part 3

This article is going to dive into the most effective ways to quantify the precision of a rifle and...

precisionrifleblog.com

Basically, the premise is that using extreme spread only uses data from two shots, while using dispersion from the mean uses data from all shots.

On a personal note, I have also started looking at vertical dispersion at longer ranges, mostly because my wind reading (using a technical term) sucks.

I have 2 lots of SK Long Range, and one of SK Pistol Match, that hang around 4-4.2 inches @ 200 yards. I have no doubt there is better somewhere, but this suits me for now as I get more into the longer range stuff. It's obvious that I'm the weak link, so I try to work on my wind skills every session.
CZ 457 Varmint AT One, Athlon Argos 6-24; depending on how cold and snow covered we are, either bipod & rear bag prone, or front rest rear bag on the bench.

Hope this thread keeps going and doesn't... well you know what happened in the others.

 

[DaveCo]

Another interesting article at the same site:

How Much Does It Matter? - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

As long-range shooters, we tend to obsess over every little detail. After all, we’re trying to hit relatively small targets that are so far you may not even be able to see with the naked eye. While you might can get away with minor mistakes and still ring steel at short and medium ranges, as you...

precisionrifleblog.com

References Brian Litz's work on which factors (es, sd, absolute accuracy, wind reading, etc) have the biggest influence on our probability of hitting a specific target.

Kind of brings us around to 'why/what are we testing for'?

Edit for typos

 

[Gleedus]

Dave does bring up a good point. When I started competing (prs) I couldnt tell a difference between remington golden bullets and good stuff well shooting off of a barricade. Now that I have gotten better I can so better ammo choice has become relevant.

Consider also if we have a 10" diamond at 200 yds and my ammo groups 8" i need a perfect wind call and elevation to get all hits. But if my ammo groups 3" i have a wind window of 3 mpr.

 

[Rimdenter]

Countless hrs. of reading and figuring last night leads me to a conclusion, as individual marksmen , we must decide what is acceptable to us. If we are satisfied with where we are, were good if not then error must be eliminated to improve. Available money normally dictates what we can do, there are a ton of places we can start that pennies on the dollar will see great increases. I'll admit it doesn't take a new gun to do this ,I'll never forget the time my dad introduced me to the 1st nail gun. I was 6 years old and I had done poorly that morning squirrel hunting 1 for the allotted 10 shells dad gave me. He walk out behind the shed about 25 yds with a hammer and started a 3" framing nail in the tree . He returned picked up his 1st issue model 52 Winchester and finished driving the nail into the tree by over a 1/4", after digging with a pocket knife to find it he looked at me and said, it's not how good are the things you use ,but how good you use the things you have.
Sadly that gun sits in my vault today and will out preform most guns made today, it's just that we want newer or maybe better things.

 

[justin amateur]

I could care less about SD. ES is my worry. Seriously.

Why? The high and low velocity shots determine the best possible results from a box of 50.
If those 2 extremes happen during a 25 shot scored target, you've likely just lost that match.

I'm looking at all of my results, not just what's convenient.
Every shot counts, not just the ones that make me happy.

Cherry picking is not allowed.

 

[Gleedus]

But if you have 2 ammo that shoot the same and have simular ES the SD would give you a idea of which will tend to be closer to average. BUT would that even be relevant if both ammo shot the same?

 

[justin amateur]

I wish my luck with ammo purchases allowed for that kind of results.

I get a delivery of high end Eley, random purchase from Killoughs,
results are never the same brick to brick. There's that much variation in rimfire.
One box the ES for 50 shots is less than 25 fps, the next is in the mid 40's.
Doesn't irritate me as I don't compete at a level where winning is everything.
But it does make a big difference on my vertical spread at extended range.
ES of 25 fps at 200 yards produces about 3 inches of spread from my rifle.
ES of 45 fps at 200 yards shows up as 5 to 6 inches of vertical.

 

[Gleedus]

So you would "strongly suggest" ES tells the whole story?

Would your experience show testing at 50 yards and then looking at ES will tell you which will be best at 200?

 

[justin amateur]

If conditions are good, if I can maintain sub 0.6 inch spread at 50 yards with a box of 22lr,
then my results at 100 and 200 will be good also, unless I catch a less than pristine cartridge
or miss time the squeeze and wind pushes it off line.

When the ES shows above 40 fps, it's an indicator that box of cartridges is not the best.
There is usually more going on than just primer/powder differences occurring.

 

[grauhanen]

I could care less about SD. ES is my worry. Seriously.

Why? The high and low velocity shots determine the best possible results from a box of 50.
If those 2 extremes happen during a 25 shot scored target, you've likely just lost that match.

I'm looking at all of my results, not just what's convenient.
Every shot counts, not just the ones that make me happy.

Cherry picking is not allowed.

While neither SD or ES are a guarantee of how well an ammo shoots (there's more to ammo performance than MV), SD can be a very valuable statistical tool with which to evaluate ammo. It's not always possible to find ammo with a remarkably small ES. As a result there will be many lots of ammo with very similar ES figures. How to choose between them becomes a good question.

An example. There two lots of the same variety of match ammo and their ES is nearly identical. That means when shooting 50 rounds at 200 yards will produce because of gravity alone groups with very similar vertical spread. Using SD allows a shooter to distinguish which lot of ammo to choose.

The lot that has the smaller SD will have fewer rounds at the extreme ends of the ES. More of its rounds will be closer to the average MV. The lot that has a larger SD still has a very similar ES but its rounds will be more evenly distributed within the entire ES.

It is ultimately irrelevant if the game is shooting an entire box at 200 yards and measuring the vertical dispersion. Whether it's a very small number of widely dispersed (vertically) shots above or below the POA or it looks like an even distribution of shots above and below the POA. If the vertical measures 4 or 5 or 6 inches in both cases, and that's all that counts, then SD can be disregarded.

But if a shooter wishes to maximize the likelyhood that five or ten random rounds from a box of ammo will produce the smallest group possible, he should choose the lot of ammo with the smallest SD over the one with the larger one, especially when ES is nearly identical. A lot of ammo with smaller SD means that a random selection of rounds are more likely to have a smaller ES than a similar selection from a lot with a larger SD.

 

[Gleedus]

I think grauhanen nailed my thoughts. My game is a hit or miss not groups size. I'm looking for the odds of hitting.

I ask this question because my testing doesnt show 50 and 200 results being completely related. But I'm one person I like to see how others do thinks and see their results.

 

[Rimdenter]

Can I present a possiable scenario? What if you get a box of ammo that has a es of 7 with a sd of 1.5 and your group dispersion is 4.8 to 5.2" at 200 yards ? What do you do ?

 

[Gleedus]

Give me the ammo!!!

 

[Rimdenter]

No seriously theres alot not taken into account.

 

[justin amateur]

Use those wind flags or get a better rifle.

I spend my range time learning the limitations of my skills, rifles and rimfire ammunition.
How far can I push the envelope before things fall apart.
In the woods, rarely do I take a shot more than 25 yards.
At those distances bulk ammo is more than adequate to put a critter in the stewpot.
If you want to truly determine what a box of cartridges is capable of,
use a one dot - one shot target, with a chronograph out front.
Inspect each cartridge before chambering and correlate results to mv and cartridge appearance.

You can't expect repeatable trajectories when each cartridge is a different shape.

Zoom in on that image, can you see the differences in bullet shape and crimp/drive bands?
Look at the nose to shoulder transition variations, dents, dings...when you can see problems
expect outliers and strays. The further the distance to the target, the more those defects affect results.

 

[grauhanen]

Can I present a possiable scenario? What if you get a box of ammo that has a es of 7 with a sd of 1.5 and your group dispersion is 4.8 to 5.2" at 200 yards ? What do you do ?

Although with .22LR ammo an ES of 7 and an SD of 1.5 is next to impossible, the group dispersion at 200 yards with a given rifle could be as described. It could even be more or even less. ES and SD are not a guarantee of how the ammo will perform in a particular rifle. In another rifle the ES and SD can be different. ES and SD are not characteristics unique to an ammo. They are the characteristics of a particular ammo with a particular rifle.

 

[Gleedus]

No seriously theres alot not taken into account.

Ive never seen ammo that good and you know that lol.
That is what drove me to testing further. My Eley force groups smaller then the ES over 4 groups at 20 shots each at 200.

Most ammo shoots bigger. But some ammo shoot "significantly" bigger then the ES. I have a lot of center X like that. At 50 its one of my better options.

 

[Gleedus]

Although with .22LR ammo an ES of 7 and an SD of 1.5 is next to impossible, the group dispersion at 200 yards with a given rifle could be as described. It could even be more or even less. ES and SD are not a guarantee of how the ammo will perform in a particular rifle. In another rifle the ES and SD can be different. ES and SD are not characteristics unique to an ammo. They are the characteristics of a particular ammo with a particular rifle.

You have my attention now... your suggesting that ES of a ammo may or is partly rifle dependent?

 

[Rimdenter]

Read this article some of your low shots or high shots could actually be related to this not statistically to a fps curve I ran this data last night on your 50, 100, and 200 yard groups also the 400 yard group. The 50 to 200yds were almost money on your grouping the 1 400 yard group showed a 37.7 % over projection this is in a wind less computation. The only prediction for the increase at 400 was a decrease in GS gyroscopic stability.

Theories, Myths, and Fables of Accuracy tested for 22 Long Rifle Ammunition

 

[Rimdenter]

This will also answere why the force does better then others

 

[justin amateur]

ES of a ammo may or is partly rifle dependent?

Sure C.
Sloppy chamber fit, rough bore/increased friction, barrel length/temperature affect mv's.

 

[Trevor]

The shooting community has started to recognize at ELR distances extreme spread is the factor that dictates hits.
Using JBM, I didn't see ELEY force substituted ELEY target

_____________Range Drop in Drop MOA
1040 fps_____ 300_____ 176.8_____56.3
1070 fps_____ 300_____ 170.0_____54.1
1100 fps_____ 300_____ 163.9_____52.2

You can see from the spread 60fps based on your earlier stmt would have a trajectory difference of 13" at 300. In order for all of your bullets to hit the 300 yard you would need a target 4.5moa or bigger.

at 200 your ES is 5.6 inches

______________Range Drop in Drop MOA
1040 fps____ 200____ 63.2____ 30.2
1070 fps____ 200_____ 60.3____ 28.8
1100 fps ____200_____ 57.8_____ 27.6

Your example over one data point (session) showed Eley force being the winner. to feel confident in this ammo you should confirm over multiple sessions over different day. Over several sessions the smaller ES ammo should prove better.
Lets consider the Eley force.
In my case 1.6 MOA at 211 yds is my average 20 shot group size.

Velocity ES was 61 fps

Cheers
Trevor

 

[Gleedus]

The shooting community has started to recognize at ELR distances extreme spread is the factor that dictates hits.
Using JBM, I didn't see ELEY force substituted ELEY target

_____________Range Drop in Drop MOA
1040 fps_____ 300_____ 176.8_____56.3
1070 fps_____ 300_____ 170.0_____54.1
1100 fps_____ 300_____ 163.9_____52.2

You can see from the spread 60fps based on your earlier stmt would have a trajectory difference of 13" at 300. In order for all of your bullets to hit the 300 yard you would need a target 4.5moa or bigger.

at 200 your ES is 5.6 inches

______________Range Drop in Drop MOA
1040 fps____ 200____ 63.2____ 30.2
1070 fps____ 200_____ 60.3____ 28.8
1100 fps ____200_____ 57.8_____ 27.6

Your example over one data point (session) showed Eley force being the winner. to feel confident in this ammo you should confirm over multiple sessions over different day. Over several sessions the smaller ES ammo should prove better.
Lets consider the Eley force.
In my case 1.6 MOA at 211 yds is my average 20 shot group size.

Velocity ES was 61 fps

Cheers
Trevor

Absolutely agree must be multiple days and groups. I have 4 days four groups of 20 shots each.
The number under each lot number is the group number. Each group has a unique number.

 

[Trevor]

Impressive given the ES

Couple follow up questions.
Did you run your ammo over your chrony each session
Did your get similar results for your SK rifle match and Eley contact


Follow up. looking at your math for ELEY force. can you help me understand the vertical group 4.48" shouldn't it read 2.13MOA
moa 1.047 x 2 (200yrds) 2.094

Cheers
Trevor

 

[Rimdenter]

If you are not checking the tir of your ammo no matter your fps spreads your building error into your calculations. Due to the fact that you cannot determine exactly where the nose of the bullet is in relation to time on exit of the muzzle. In a bench machine that can day in and day out produce .02 to .05 groups I have to examine this if the same ammo slings a .440 group due to tir. Issues. were talking 80 shot groups not 5 or 10.

 

[Gleedus]

Impressive given the ES

Couple follow up questions.
Did you run your ammo over your chrony each session
Did your get similar results for your SK rifle match and Eley contact


Follow up. looking at your math for ELEY force. can you help me understand the vertical group 4.48" shouldn't it read 2.13MOA
moa 1.047 x 2 (200yrds) 2.094

Cheers
Trevor

um wrong math in the spreadsheet maybe... good eye I'll have a look see whats up!!

actual range is 211 yards.

 

[Gleedus]

If you are not checking the tir of your ammo no matter your fps spreads your building error into your calculations. Due to the fact that you cannot determine exactly where the nose of the bullet is in relation to time on exit of the muzzle. In a bench machine that can day in and day out produce .02 to .05 groups I have to examine this if the same ammo slings a .440 group due to tir. Issues. were talking 80 shot groups not 5 or 10.

Tir ? You have me lost..

 

[Rimdenter]

Tir ? You have me lost..

Total indicator reading the run out of the bullet to casing relation it's the reason match chambers normally shoot better it self aligns the lead bullet to the case. I try to maintain .0002 or less when I check all match ammo ,another term is concintricty.

 

[MarkCZ]

What are your results from testing ammo? What is your test procedure for a long range rig?

I start my ammo testing at 50yds with 5 shots groups. Then move to 100yds. 150yds. and to 200yds 5 shot groups. IMO 10, 20, 50 shot groups don't tell me anything. How do I know what is going on during that long string? I would be testing myself, not the ammo. Wind I can't see, Am I getting vertical from the wind? Testing has to be under the same conditions for the group. The Longer the group takes to shoot, more chance the wind has to effect the group and for me to make an error.
I am a steel shooter, past 50 yds. I'm shooting 5 shot groups on 12" gongs. I am looking for vertical in the groups, then I go to smaller steel, down to 1" gongs out to 200yds. If I hit the smaller steel well, the ammo is good to go.
Mark

 

[Gleedus]

Total indicator reading the run out of the bullet to casing relation it's the reason match chambers normally shoot better it self aligns the lead bullet to the case. I try to maintain .0002 or less when I check all match ammo ,another term is concintricty.

Ah! Ive never checked run out.

 

[straightshooter1]

Total indicator reading the run out of the bullet to casing relation it's the reason match chambers normally shoot better it self aligns the lead bullet to the case. I try to maintain .0002 or less when I check all match ammo ,another term is concintricty.

2 ten thousandths??? or did you mean 2 thousandths, like centerfire shooters do?

 

[Rimdenter]

Groups can be tightened a avg. of 35%
ie. 5.2 at 200yds you can gain 1.82 reduction which would result in 3.38 this is on a windless day the 25" group at 400 yds the one man shot shrinks to 16.25" . Which computes to the group avg. of the .600 group at 50 yds at 100 you'd be running right at 1.247. This has nothing to do with MOA you are computing the concentric error of a forward moving object . In a perfect world of .0000 TIR. it would be an exact MOA

2 ten thousandths??? or did you mean 2 thousandths, like centerfire shooters do?

No 2 tenths of a thousandths the indicator I use is in pic each number is a thousandths of a inch the lines in between are tenths of that 1 thousandths. .002 thousandths is what some match ammo avgs. 75%

 

[Rimdenter]

Looking at the needle on the indicator now it reads -.00215 or minus 2 and 1 and 1/2 tenths thousandths.