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Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Rim thickness/uniformaty are more conducive to accuracy than meplat/ogive in a small bore gun.
Rim thickness/uniformaty are more conducive to accuracy than meplat/ogive in a small bore gun.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I understand that rim thickness/uniformity is important, but not why. Can anyone elaborate on this and also, how best to measure this critical factor?
Greg
I understand that rim thickness/uniformity is important, but not why. Can anyone elaborate on this and also, how best to measure this critical factor?
Greg
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
the only thing i can gather is that it would have to do with ignition.
the priming compound is in the rim, the more compound (thicker rim) the hotter it will burn, hence more velocity, hence vertical dispersion.
the only thing i can gather is that it would have to do with ignition.
the priming compound is in the rim, the more compound (thicker rim) the hotter it will burn, hence more velocity, hence vertical dispersion.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rim thickness/uniformaty are more conducive to accuracy than meplat/ogive in a small bore gun. </div></div>I dunno, but I've the strong feeling that bullet size uniformity matters quite a bit more than rim thickness uniformity.
In my experience the barrel/bullet coupling account for a huge chunk of accuracy, being it rimfire or centerfire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DANS40X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rim thickness/uniformaty are more conducive to accuracy than meplat/ogive in a small bore gun. </div></div>I dunno, but I've the strong feeling that bullet size uniformity matters quite a bit more than rim thickness uniformity.
In my experience the barrel/bullet coupling account for a huge chunk of accuracy, being it rimfire or centerfire.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Its just part of the picture. Its something we can measure so we worry about it. A good barrel and match chamber will get you a lot further down the road. Match chamber = bullet engraves the lands when chambered.
Its just part of the picture. Its something we can measure so we worry about it. A good barrel and match chamber will get you a lot further down the road. Match chamber = bullet engraves the lands when chambered.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I use the Paco tool to reshape to a big hollow point for my backyard pest rifle. With CB's and an old Winny single shot it is almost silent...with the Paco tool the slow rounds are instant death on head shots on possums...anybody that has tried that with factory ammo knows that the animal is too dumb to know that he has been shot. With the Paco tool there is a dramatic increse in effectiveness. JMHO
I use the Paco tool to reshape to a big hollow point for my backyard pest rifle. With CB's and an old Winny single shot it is almost silent...with the Paco tool the slow rounds are instant death on head shots on possums...anybody that has tried that with factory ammo knows that the animal is too dumb to know that he has been shot. With the Paco tool there is a dramatic increse in effectiveness. JMHO
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
A match chamber will help. Actually you can face off the end of the barrel till the bullets engrave set the barrel shoulder back the corresponding amount and have a cheap match chamber. You may or may not have to extend the extractor groove/grooves But measure away..........
A match chamber will help. Actually you can face off the end of the barrel till the bullets engrave set the barrel shoulder back the corresponding amount and have a cheap match chamber. You may or may not have to extend the extractor groove/grooves But measure away..........
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I use the one I posted in this thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...true#Post666764
I use the one I posted in this thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...true#Post666764
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I just ordered one from Neal, looks like a great idea!
I just ordered one from Neal, looks like a great idea!
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I have one of the first run Paco tools and use it with great effectiveness. As for force needed to bump the round up to the die size, about as much force as is needed to tap a carpet tack into a piece of soft pine using a tack hammer. I have a double headed light hammer that is nylon on one side and rubber on the other. The head is about tack hammer size. A few light taps with the nylon head are enough to bump-up or reform the round.
The Waltz die set seems to be the same thing except using the leverage available in a press instead of a tack hammer. Either way, any time you can have a lead bullet that is just a tad over bore size, you will get better accuracy as the bullet is swaged down to a perfect fit inside the bore, as it travels down the barrel.
In my opinion, the tools have merit.
I have one of the first run Paco tools and use it with great effectiveness. As for force needed to bump the round up to the die size, about as much force as is needed to tap a carpet tack into a piece of soft pine using a tack hammer. I have a double headed light hammer that is nylon on one side and rubber on the other. The head is about tack hammer size. A few light taps with the nylon head are enough to bump-up or reform the round.
The Waltz die set seems to be the same thing except using the leverage available in a press instead of a tack hammer. Either way, any time you can have a lead bullet that is just a tad over bore size, you will get better accuracy as the bullet is swaged down to a perfect fit inside the bore, as it travels down the barrel.
In my opinion, the tools have merit.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Shot a tree rat today at 15yrds with my Single Six. The hollow point works very well (sorry no pics). Hit at the bottom of the rib cage just left of the spine. I kid you not, blew all the guts out the exit hole. Bumped up rounds shoot alot better out of it than any standard fodder, high dollar or otherwise.
Shot a tree rat today at 15yrds with my Single Six. The hollow point works very well (sorry no pics). Hit at the bottom of the rib cage just left of the spine. I kid you not, blew all the guts out the exit hole. Bumped up rounds shoot alot better out of it than any standard fodder, high dollar or otherwise.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Eagle - the Single Six was one of the reasons Paco came up with his tools. Ruger uses a .224 barrel on the SS since most are convertibles capable of shooting the .22 Magnum. Bumping up the .22 LR rounds helps them fill the .224 bore barrels better.
Eagle - the Single Six was one of the reasons Paco came up with his tools. Ruger uses a .224 barrel on the SS since most are convertibles capable of shooting the .22 Magnum. Bumping up the .22 LR rounds helps them fill the .224 bore barrels better.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Do yourself a favor and buy the die made by Neal Waltz. Yes, it is more expensive but this is one time that spending more money really will deliver the goods. I have Waltz's die serial number 005 and could fill pages with good reports. Regards....g
Do yourself a favor and buy the die made by Neal Waltz. Yes, it is more expensive but this is one time that spending more money really will deliver the goods. I have Waltz's die serial number 005 and could fill pages with good reports. Regards....g
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I was in doubt which one to get, but I really like the Paco's Phase-4. It has four chamber sizes in one tool, for $80 shipped.
I own two different 22LR and plan to buy at least another one, and I like the idea of not having to buy three or four Waltz dies.
I was in doubt which one to get, but I really like the Paco's Phase-4. It has four chamber sizes in one tool, for $80 shipped.
I own two different 22LR and plan to buy at least another one, and I like the idea of not having to buy three or four Waltz dies.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Do as you wish. I have seen too many reports of unsatisified shooters that went the cheap route. Btw, Neal's die comes with 2 different nose punches, a hollow pointer and a flat nose "eps" style target type and I believe he is offering a third one as well. His die is used in a standard 7/8 inch press like the Rockchucker that I use. If you see the pic of the die he uses in his advertisement that shows the die and a small 20 yard group using [at that time] .99 cent per box Federal Champion ammo, I am the shooter. I can personally attest to the quality of the Waltz die. Best of luck in your quest... Regards...g
Do as you wish. I have seen too many reports of unsatisified shooters that went the cheap route. Btw, Neal's die comes with 2 different nose punches, a hollow pointer and a flat nose "eps" style target type and I believe he is offering a third one as well. His die is used in a standard 7/8 inch press like the Rockchucker that I use. If you see the pic of the die he uses in his advertisement that shows the die and a small 20 yard group using [at that time] .99 cent per box Federal Champion ammo, I am the shooter. I can personally attest to the quality of the Waltz die. Best of luck in your quest... Regards...g
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
The third punch that Neal offers is a round-nose shape that slightly increases the diameter of the bullet in the process. I didn't order it since I think the EPS nose shape is the better. HotIce, you made the right choice! My MO went out this morning to Neal.
The third punch that Neal offers is a round-nose shape that slightly increases the diameter of the bullet in the process. I didn't order it since I think the EPS nose shape is the better. HotIce, you made the right choice! My MO went out this morning to Neal.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
One thing I liked about the Paco's, was that I could use it at the range. But I figured that I can put my old-and-never-used Lee Hand Press at work with Niel's die
Another thing was the multiple chamber sizes. My two 22LR firearms will do fine with .225, so I'm OK with Niel's size ATM.
One thing I liked about the Paco's, was that I could use it at the range. But I figured that I can put my old-and-never-used Lee Hand Press at work with Niel's die
Another thing was the multiple chamber sizes. My two 22LR firearms will do fine with .225, so I'm OK with Niel's size ATM.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
BPaige;
Checked the link. Thank you.
Greg
BPaige;
Checked the link. Thank you.
Greg
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that rim thickness/uniformity is important, but not why. Can anyone elaborate on this and also, how best to measure this critical factor?
Greg </div></div>
Just use a .223 case a caliper to measure rim thickness.
Square the case mouth up and set you caliper to zero on
the case OAL and insert round and measure.
Cheap and works
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that rim thickness/uniformity is important, but not why. Can anyone elaborate on this and also, how best to measure this critical factor?
Greg </div></div>
Just use a .223 case a caliper to measure rim thickness.
Square the case mouth up and set you caliper to zero on
the case OAL and insert round and measure.
Cheap and works
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I'm guessing, but rim thickness may be related to the distance between the bullet and the lands -- bullet jump.
I'm guessing, but rim thickness may be related to the distance between the bullet and the lands -- bullet jump.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
IMHO correlation between rim thickness sorting, and group sizes, has never been proven. Some detailed results actually shows all but definitive answers.
IMHO correlation between rim thickness sorting, and group sizes, has never been proven. Some detailed results actually shows all but definitive answers.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Picked up one of Neal Waltz's sizers. Weather too bad to test outside but shot on my indoor 50' range. Tried CCI Standard Velocity, RWS Target & Wolf Match Target. CCI Standard & RWS Target did not show any real difference. With Wolf it did reduce overall group size. The individual who I bought it from is a very well known 22 BR shooter. He said it showed a definite with Wolf but not with any of the upper level target ammunition. I used a Win. 52 which seems to shoot well with any ammunition, and a Rem. 40X which seems to shoot only moderately well with any ammunition. Both guns show a measurable reduction in size. I have only had a chance to shoot about 300 rnds so results should be viewed with some reserve. I plan to continue to test other brands and grades of ammunition as well as trying it in different guns. Personally I feel using this die and Wolf ammunition should put you on par with top priced target ammunition at about 1/4 the price. I would recommend you try one.
Picked up one of Neal Waltz's sizers. Weather too bad to test outside but shot on my indoor 50' range. Tried CCI Standard Velocity, RWS Target & Wolf Match Target. CCI Standard & RWS Target did not show any real difference. With Wolf it did reduce overall group size. The individual who I bought it from is a very well known 22 BR shooter. He said it showed a definite with Wolf but not with any of the upper level target ammunition. I used a Win. 52 which seems to shoot well with any ammunition, and a Rem. 40X which seems to shoot only moderately well with any ammunition. Both guns show a measurable reduction in size. I have only had a chance to shoot about 300 rnds so results should be viewed with some reserve. I plan to continue to test other brands and grades of ammunition as well as trying it in different guns. Personally I feel using this die and Wolf ammunition should put you on par with top priced target ammunition at about 1/4 the price. I would recommend you try one.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I received my die set from Neal too, but won't be able to try it out for a couple weeks. I do have some Wolf MT to try, as well as a variety of other 22LR ammo. Neal included a round-nose punch with my set, as well as the hollow-point and EPS-type punches.
My Win 52C shoots CCI Mini Mags very well - one MOA at 100 yards - all day with match sights. However, my 40X won't chamber the CCI easily because the case rims are too thick.
I'm wondering how many rounds do other people shoot between ammo types before going for a group size?
I received my die set from Neal too, but won't be able to try it out for a couple weeks. I do have some Wolf MT to try, as well as a variety of other 22LR ammo. Neal included a round-nose punch with my set, as well as the hollow-point and EPS-type punches.
My Win 52C shoots CCI Mini Mags very well - one MOA at 100 yards - all day with match sights. However, my 40X won't chamber the CCI easily because the case rims are too thick.
I'm wondering how many rounds do other people shoot between ammo types before going for a group size?
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Neal's die is WELL WORTH the money for it. I didnt believe how good it was until one of my shooting buddies got one and I tried it out. I shoot a Rem 40x and he shoots a Suhl. We typically shoot 100 - 200m with standard velocity ammo and grouping on a good day without wind, etc. is between 1 - 1/2" in size (@ 100m)but using the die we can easily achieve 3/4" grouping (5 shot) at 100m with cheap ammo. At 200m, usual grouping is between 2 - 2 1/2".
Neal's die is WELL WORTH the money for it. I didnt believe how good it was until one of my shooting buddies got one and I tried it out. I shoot a Rem 40x and he shoots a Suhl. We typically shoot 100 - 200m with standard velocity ammo and grouping on a good day without wind, etc. is between 1 - 1/2" in size (@ 100m)but using the die we can easily achieve 3/4" grouping (5 shot) at 100m with cheap ammo. At 200m, usual grouping is between 2 - 2 1/2".
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: exmr2sw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neal's die is WELL WORTH the money for it. I didnt believe how good it was until one of my shooting buddies got one and I tried it out. I shoot a Rem 40x and he shoots a Suhl. We typically shoot 100 - 200m with standard velocity ammo and grouping on a good day without wind, etc. is between 1 - 1/2" in size (@ 100m)but using the die we can easily achieve 3/4" grouping (5 shot) at 100m with cheap ammo. At 200m, usual grouping is between 2 - 2 1/2". </div></div>
Did you mean to write that your typical group size at 100m is between 1" and 1.5", but you typically achive 3/4" using Neal's die? BTW, I love your avatar - I keep trying to pedal faster.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: exmr2sw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neal's die is WELL WORTH the money for it. I didnt believe how good it was until one of my shooting buddies got one and I tried it out. I shoot a Rem 40x and he shoots a Suhl. We typically shoot 100 - 200m with standard velocity ammo and grouping on a good day without wind, etc. is between 1 - 1/2" in size (@ 100m)but using the die we can easily achieve 3/4" grouping (5 shot) at 100m with cheap ammo. At 200m, usual grouping is between 2 - 2 1/2". </div></div>
Did you mean to write that your typical group size at 100m is between 1" and 1.5", but you typically achive 3/4" using Neal's die? BTW, I love your avatar - I keep trying to pedal faster.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: exmr2sw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neal's die is WELL WORTH the money for it. I didnt believe how good it was until one of my shooting buddies got one and I tried it out. I shoot a Rem 40x and he shoots a Suhl. We typically shoot 100 - 200m with standard velocity ammo and grouping on a good day without wind, etc. is between 1 - 1/2" in size (@ 100m)but using the die we can easily achieve 3/4" grouping (5 shot) at 100m with cheap ammo. At 200m, usual grouping is between 2 - 2 1/2". </div></div>
Did you mean to write that your typical group size at 100m is between 1" and 1.5", but you typically achive 3/4" using Neal's die? BTW, I love your avatar - I keep trying to pedal faster.</div></div>
Yes, typical grouping @ 100m is 1 - 1/2" without the die. I use the die right at the bench, 10 rounds at time and 1/4 turn on the die (hollow point depth). Im shooting a Rem40x, MCM A5, USO ST-10, Target barrel, and Jewell trigger.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: exmr2sw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Neal's die is WELL WORTH the money for it. I didnt believe how good it was until one of my shooting buddies got one and I tried it out. I shoot a Rem 40x and he shoots a Suhl. We typically shoot 100 - 200m with standard velocity ammo and grouping on a good day without wind, etc. is between 1 - 1/2" in size (@ 100m)but using the die we can easily achieve 3/4" grouping (5 shot) at 100m with cheap ammo. At 200m, usual grouping is between 2 - 2 1/2". </div></div>
Did you mean to write that your typical group size at 100m is between 1" and 1.5", but you typically achive 3/4" using Neal's die? BTW, I love your avatar - I keep trying to pedal faster.</div></div>
Yes, typical grouping @ 100m is 1 - 1/2" without the die. I use the die right at the bench, 10 rounds at time and 1/4 turn on the die (hollow point depth). Im shooting a Rem40x, MCM A5, USO ST-10, Target barrel, and Jewell trigger.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I'm back in NV and just finished reshaping 50 Wolf MT rounds. Since it's possible to lightly or heavily reshape the lead bullets using the "EPS" punch (Eley EPS-like nose shape), I'm wondering whether there is an optimum degree of reshaping. Has anyone experimented with various degrees of reshaping and experimented to see whether there is a variation in group size?
I'm back in NV and just finished reshaping 50 Wolf MT rounds. Since it's possible to lightly or heavily reshape the lead bullets using the "EPS" punch (Eley EPS-like nose shape), I'm wondering whether there is an optimum degree of reshaping. Has anyone experimented with various degrees of reshaping and experimented to see whether there is a variation in group size?
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
Been using a set of Paco's tools for several years now and they work great. Both the hollow point tool or the flat nose tool combined with the cone-shaped center post really put the smack down on vermin. And I've noticed a significant decrease in group size with different .22lr ammo on paper, but it has been a while since I've taken the .22lr bolt guns to the range and don't remember which brands/velocity off the top.
Never used any of Neal's tools, but they sound very good also.
Been using a set of Paco's tools for several years now and they work great. Both the hollow point tool or the flat nose tool combined with the cone-shaped center post really put the smack down on vermin. And I've noticed a significant decrease in group size with different .22lr ammo on paper, but it has been a while since I've taken the .22lr bolt guns to the range and don't remember which brands/velocity off the top.
Never used any of Neal's tools, but they sound very good also.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I have done a bit of research on these two items. If I were to buy one it would be the Neal Waltz dies. I just can't get over the idea of consistency while using a hammer/mallet and the paco route. The die that goes into a press seems like a much more consistent route. From all the actual field results I could find midgrade ammo seemed to shrink by 25-35% in group size from all users reviews I have found to date. Every time I see it brought up I sit on the fence for a week or two thinking about it.
I have done a bit of research on these two items. If I were to buy one it would be the Neal Waltz dies. I just can't get over the idea of consistency while using a hammer/mallet and the paco route. The die that goes into a press seems like a much more consistent route. From all the actual field results I could find midgrade ammo seemed to shrink by 25-35% in group size from all users reviews I have found to date. Every time I see it brought up I sit on the fence for a week or two thinking about it.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
I got the Neal Waltz, over the Paco cause the ideal of hitting a .22 round with a hammer was unappealing.
The Neal .22 die is a very precision made unit.
I'm very happy with spending more to get a higher quality item.
Works well. Didn't know I needed a press till I got it, but I got a single stage for $30.
Now I can handload rifle ammo.
I got the Neal Waltz, over the Paco cause the ideal of hitting a .22 round with a hammer was unappealing.
The Neal .22 die is a very precision made unit.
I'm very happy with spending more to get a higher quality item.
Works well. Didn't know I needed a press till I got it, but I got a single stage for $30.
Now I can handload rifle ammo.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
After reshaping some 22LR with the Waltz die using the "EPS" punch shape, I went to the range this afternoon to see whether there would be an improvement in group size. The bottom line is that reshaping made an improvement for some ammo types and not for one I tested.
My rifle is a Remington 40X barreled action in an AICS, with an original 22" long barrel and a total of about 400 - 500 rounds down the tube. I used a 12x scope and my target was at 100 yards.
For this 22LR only, I clean the barrel after every trip to the range. Before firing for record, I shot 10 rounds of each type of ammo to acclimate the barrel to that particular ammo type.
I tried the following 22LR ammo:
* Lapua Speed Ace (orange box)
* Wolf Match Target (MT)
* Federal GMM (711B)
* Aguila SE High Velocity (copper plated 40-gr round nose bullet, circa 1,250 fps)
* Eley Match EPS (used only for group size comparison, not reshaped)
Reshaping improved the group size of all of these ammo types except the Federal GMM. The group sizes were estimated by eye, not measured with a caliper. My paper targets have 1/4" horizontal and vertical lines to assist in making eyeball measurements.
The factory Eley EPS had the smallest 10-shot group, about 1/2 inch at 100 yards, one ragged hole, and was clearly the best out of my 40X.
The Wolf MT 10-shot group was 1" to 1.5"; but after reshaping, the group size decreased by about one-third or 3/4" to 1".
The Aguila SE was third and only slightly worse than the Wolf MT after reshaping. These bullets are copper plated and there was no problem reshaping them. A small dab of wax remained on the "nub" after reshaping and you should clean it off before use.
The Lapua Speed Ace was fourth, with a 10-shot group of about 1.25" to 1.5" after reshaping, better than the factory round.
The Federal GMM Target shot poorly, about 1.5" to 2". Reshaping did little to improve the group size. I suspect there were other factors that affected the accuracy of this round, such as variations in primer or powder load since a few rounds failed to fire.
My conclusion is that Eley EPS is the best ammo for my 40X if I were punching paper at 100 yards in a match. For practice or simply to save money, the reshaped Wolf MT is 1 MOA or better at the same distance. However, if I want to shoot at 200 or 300 yards, the Aguila SE High Velocity is almost as good as the reshaped Wolf MT at 100 yards and needs less elevation at the longer distances. I fired both subsonic and high velocity 22LR to 200 and 300 yards today and the subsonic required several more MOA - I didn't make notes or exact measurements, but the difference was surprising (a few mils at 300 yards). The Aguila SE performed well at 300 yards and would be my choice for hunting or long-range match use at this point over the reshaped Wolf MT.
After reshaping some 22LR with the Waltz die using the "EPS" punch shape, I went to the range this afternoon to see whether there would be an improvement in group size. The bottom line is that reshaping made an improvement for some ammo types and not for one I tested.
My rifle is a Remington 40X barreled action in an AICS, with an original 22" long barrel and a total of about 400 - 500 rounds down the tube. I used a 12x scope and my target was at 100 yards.
For this 22LR only, I clean the barrel after every trip to the range. Before firing for record, I shot 10 rounds of each type of ammo to acclimate the barrel to that particular ammo type.
I tried the following 22LR ammo:
* Lapua Speed Ace (orange box)
* Wolf Match Target (MT)
* Federal GMM (711B)
* Aguila SE High Velocity (copper plated 40-gr round nose bullet, circa 1,250 fps)
* Eley Match EPS (used only for group size comparison, not reshaped)
Reshaping improved the group size of all of these ammo types except the Federal GMM. The group sizes were estimated by eye, not measured with a caliper. My paper targets have 1/4" horizontal and vertical lines to assist in making eyeball measurements.
The factory Eley EPS had the smallest 10-shot group, about 1/2 inch at 100 yards, one ragged hole, and was clearly the best out of my 40X.
The Wolf MT 10-shot group was 1" to 1.5"; but after reshaping, the group size decreased by about one-third or 3/4" to 1".
The Aguila SE was third and only slightly worse than the Wolf MT after reshaping. These bullets are copper plated and there was no problem reshaping them. A small dab of wax remained on the "nub" after reshaping and you should clean it off before use.
The Lapua Speed Ace was fourth, with a 10-shot group of about 1.25" to 1.5" after reshaping, better than the factory round.
The Federal GMM Target shot poorly, about 1.5" to 2". Reshaping did little to improve the group size. I suspect there were other factors that affected the accuracy of this round, such as variations in primer or powder load since a few rounds failed to fire.
My conclusion is that Eley EPS is the best ammo for my 40X if I were punching paper at 100 yards in a match. For practice or simply to save money, the reshaped Wolf MT is 1 MOA or better at the same distance. However, if I want to shoot at 200 or 300 yards, the Aguila SE High Velocity is almost as good as the reshaped Wolf MT at 100 yards and needs less elevation at the longer distances. I fired both subsonic and high velocity 22LR to 200 and 300 yards today and the subsonic required several more MOA - I didn't make notes or exact measurements, but the difference was surprising (a few mils at 300 yards). The Aguila SE performed well at 300 yards and would be my choice for hunting or long-range match use at this point over the reshaped Wolf MT.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reshaping some 22LR with the Waltz die using the "EPS" punch shape, I went to the range this afternoon to see whether there would be an improvement in group size. The bottom line is that reshaping made an improvement for some ammo types and not for one I tested.
My rifle is a Remington 40X barreled action in an AICS, with an original 22" long barrel and a total of about 400 - 500 rounds down the tube. I used a 12x scope and my target was at 100 yards.
For this 22LR only, I clean the barrel after every trip to the range. Before firing for record, I shot 10 rounds of each type of ammo to acclimate the barrel to that particular ammo type.
I tried the following 22LR ammo:
* Lapua Speed Ace (orange box)
* Wolf Match Target (MT)
* Federal GMM (711B)
* Aguila SE High Velocity (copper plated 40-gr round nose bullet, circa 1,250 fps)
* Eley Match EPS (used only for group size comparison, not reshaped)
Reshaping improved the group size of all of these ammo types except the Federal GMM. The group sizes were estimated by eye, not measured with a caliper. My paper targets have 1/4" horizontal and vertical lines to assist in making eyeball measurements.
The factory Eley EPS had the smallest 10-shot group, about 1/2 inch at 100 yards, one ragged hole, and was clearly the best out of my 40X.
The Wolf MT 10-shot group was 1" to 1.5"; but after reshaping, the group size decreased by about one-third or 3/4" to 1".
The Aguila SE was third and only slightly worse than the Wolf MT after reshaping. These bullets are copper plated and there was no problem reshaping them. A small dab of wax remained on the "nub" after reshaping and you should clean it off before use.
The Lapua Speed Ace was fourth, with a 10-shot group of about 1.25" to 1.5" after reshaping, better than the factory round.
The Federal GMM Target shot poorly, about 1.5" to 2". Reshaping did little to improve the group size. I suspect there were other factors that affected the accuracy of this round, such as variations in primer or powder load since a few rounds failed to fire.
My conclusion is that Eley EPS is the best ammo for my 40X if I were punching paper at 100 yards in a match. For practice or simply to save money, the reshaped Wolf MT is 1 MOA or better at the same distance. However, if I want to shoot at 200 or 300 yards, the Aguila SE High Velocity is almost as good as the reshaped Wolf MT at 100 yards and needs less elevation at the longer distances. I fired both subsonic and high velocity 22LR to 200 and 300 yards today and the subsonic required several more MOA - I didn't make notes or exact measurements, but the difference was surprising (a few mils at 300 yards). The Aguila SE performed well at 300 yards and would be my choice for hunting or long-range match use at this point over the reshaped Wolf MT.</div></div>
Thanks for the ammo testing report; this will come in handy for my own Rem40XB.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reshaping some 22LR with the Waltz die using the "EPS" punch shape, I went to the range this afternoon to see whether there would be an improvement in group size. The bottom line is that reshaping made an improvement for some ammo types and not for one I tested.
My rifle is a Remington 40X barreled action in an AICS, with an original 22" long barrel and a total of about 400 - 500 rounds down the tube. I used a 12x scope and my target was at 100 yards.
For this 22LR only, I clean the barrel after every trip to the range. Before firing for record, I shot 10 rounds of each type of ammo to acclimate the barrel to that particular ammo type.
I tried the following 22LR ammo:
* Lapua Speed Ace (orange box)
* Wolf Match Target (MT)
* Federal GMM (711B)
* Aguila SE High Velocity (copper plated 40-gr round nose bullet, circa 1,250 fps)
* Eley Match EPS (used only for group size comparison, not reshaped)
Reshaping improved the group size of all of these ammo types except the Federal GMM. The group sizes were estimated by eye, not measured with a caliper. My paper targets have 1/4" horizontal and vertical lines to assist in making eyeball measurements.
The factory Eley EPS had the smallest 10-shot group, about 1/2 inch at 100 yards, one ragged hole, and was clearly the best out of my 40X.
The Wolf MT 10-shot group was 1" to 1.5"; but after reshaping, the group size decreased by about one-third or 3/4" to 1".
The Aguila SE was third and only slightly worse than the Wolf MT after reshaping. These bullets are copper plated and there was no problem reshaping them. A small dab of wax remained on the "nub" after reshaping and you should clean it off before use.
The Lapua Speed Ace was fourth, with a 10-shot group of about 1.25" to 1.5" after reshaping, better than the factory round.
The Federal GMM Target shot poorly, about 1.5" to 2". Reshaping did little to improve the group size. I suspect there were other factors that affected the accuracy of this round, such as variations in primer or powder load since a few rounds failed to fire.
My conclusion is that Eley EPS is the best ammo for my 40X if I were punching paper at 100 yards in a match. For practice or simply to save money, the reshaped Wolf MT is 1 MOA or better at the same distance. However, if I want to shoot at 200 or 300 yards, the Aguila SE High Velocity is almost as good as the reshaped Wolf MT at 100 yards and needs less elevation at the longer distances. I fired both subsonic and high velocity 22LR to 200 and 300 yards today and the subsonic required several more MOA - I didn't make notes or exact measurements, but the difference was surprising (a few mils at 300 yards). The Aguila SE performed well at 300 yards and would be my choice for hunting or long-range match use at this point over the reshaped Wolf MT.</div></div>
Thanks for the ammo testing report; this will come in handy for my own Rem40XB.
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
thanks for refinding this thread melick.
has anyone else used these things (especially with cheap ammo), either the paco or the waltz?
thanks for refinding this thread melick.
has anyone else used these things (especially with cheap ammo), either the paco or the waltz?
Re: 22LR Bullet Shapers/Sizers
The round is set in the chamber by the rim. Therefore the more uniform the rim thickness the more uniform the rifling engages the bullet. Since this is a straight round with no shoulder the round is indexed off of the rim. Same as when you handload your bolt guns and seat the bullet at the same distance from the rifling.
The round is set in the chamber by the rim. Therefore the more uniform the rim thickness the more uniform the rifling engages the bullet. Since this is a straight round with no shoulder the round is indexed off of the rim. Same as when you handload your bolt guns and seat the bullet at the same distance from the rifling.
