- Thread starter RTH1800
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So far, I haven't done any appreciable amount of shooting beyond 300yds with my 40X or V-22 repeaters. Have done a considerable amount of testing on steel & over a chronograph at 200, and as it stands right now, am looking at finding select lots of SK Flatnose Basic, Lapua Center-X & Polar Biathlon, and Eley Match. I'm not seeing any more drop with the EPS or SK Flatnose at 200, although Eley Match's higher velocity is more than enough to make up for any disadvantage the EPS bullet might incur. I have a good lot of SK Rifle Match that's shot very well in a couple of Kriegers & the Bartlein Kukri, but during chronographing while shooting 210yds on steel yesterday, I can see that - at least in colder temps - its ES numbers went from a low of 24 up to 44 over the course of an hour, as temp dropped from 37* to 32*. Lapua Polar stayed relativley consistent as it got colder, which is what you'd expect out of ammo loaded for use in very cold temps. The Eley Match I shot yesterday avg'd 22-24fps faster than either SK or Lapua, with corresponding higher impacts of from 3"- 4" higher at 210yds than SK Rifle Match, and about an inch higher than Lapua Polar. Downside to this lot of Polar is a a wide velocity variation, wide enough to be easily heard while shooting suppressed. One 10-shot string through the Kukri Bartlein bbl had an ES of 55fps, with a 'group' - if you want to be charitable enough to call it that - which was 10" tall. Eley Match was considerably more consistent, with ES of 15 & 20 in Bartlein & Krieger bbls. All the strings I shot yesterday were 10-shot.
I've got some lots of SK Flatnose Basic coming to test, in hopes of finding one that may have good ES. Though I have yet to chrono any of the Basic, it's shown promise on steel at 210yds, so am hoping to be able to find a decent lot and do so in a timely enough fashion to still be able to buy quantity of that lot#. As far as Lapua Center-X & Polar Biathlon go, it's going to take some testing to see if a lot with good ES numbers can be found. I see no reason to spend a lot of $$$ buying cases of these higher-priced brands/grades of ammo if the chances of finding a lot# with low (and consistent) ES isn't better than doing so with mid-grade stuff like SK. It'll be interesting to see how the new SK LR ammo performs in this respect...
I've got some lots of SK Flatnose Basic coming to test, in hopes of finding one that may have good ES. Though I have yet to chrono any of the Basic, it's shown promise on steel at 210yds, so am hoping to be able to find a decent lot and do so in a timely enough fashion to still be able to buy quantity of that lot#. As far as Lapua Center-X & Polar Biathlon go, it's going to take some testing to see if a lot with good ES numbers can be found. I see no reason to spend a lot of $$$ buying cases of these higher-priced brands/grades of ammo if the chances of finding a lot# with low (and consistent) ES isn't better than doing so with mid-grade stuff like SK. It'll be interesting to see how the new SK LR ammo performs in this respect...
I'm limited to 200 yards.
If you don't have tight muzzle velocities, even at 200 yards results will be disappointing.
I've run most of the better grades of rimfire across a chronograph at 200 yards, minimum of 50 shots.
Best results came from the expensive grades of SK, Eley, Lapua and RWS.
Below is the vertical spread that results from 10 fps difference between shots with 40 grain 22lr
With most match 22lr showing roughly 40 fps ES for a box of 50,
you can determine just how bad things get even before wind and skill affect results.
At 200 yards if I can show 2.5 moa for 50 shots, I consider it decent shooting.
If you don't have tight muzzle velocities, even at 200 yards results will be disappointing.
I've run most of the better grades of rimfire across a chronograph at 200 yards, minimum of 50 shots.
Best results came from the expensive grades of SK, Eley, Lapua and RWS.
Below is the vertical spread that results from 10 fps difference between shots with 40 grain 22lr
With most match 22lr showing roughly 40 fps ES for a box of 50,
you can determine just how bad things get even before wind and skill affect results.
At 200 yards if I can show 2.5 moa for 50 shots, I consider it decent shooting.
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I'm very much looking forward to shooting the V-22s at 300 and beyond - Jay & Paul sent me a 60 MOA scope base with the 22" Kukri bbl'd action to see how far out I could go with the internal elevation of the Cronus scope. I had no problem getting a good 50d zero with 60 MOA - in fact, had plenty of down travel left on the elevation turret after checking impact/zero at 50yd. But longer distance shooting is just going to have to wait a bit - my backstop & targets are still buried in snow, and we're getting more light flurries as I type this. Even after the snow melts & I can see the targets & backstop, it's going to be too muddy to get over to my 600-1000yd range for awhile. Hopefully I'll be able to get some meaningful results testing at 210yds, 'cause that's as far back as I can get right now. At least I'm shooting in a concrete feed alley, so my portable bench has something solid to sit on...
There are a ton of wallet groups out there.
The best results from a range session.
I prefer to call them "random acts of accuracy".
I like to see the results from the entire box, not just the best of the session.
I'm going to send 50 shots, might as well view the results from all 50.
Keeps things real regarding what to expect from the 22lr at extended range.
targets can look like this at 200 yards....
to this...
and when the wind and ammo quality cooperates...
The best results from a range session.
I prefer to call them "random acts of accuracy".
I like to see the results from the entire box, not just the best of the session.
I'm going to send 50 shots, might as well view the results from all 50.
Keeps things real regarding what to expect from the 22lr at extended range.
targets can look like this at 200 yards....
to this...
and when the wind and ammo quality cooperates...
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There are a ton of wallet groups out there.
The best results from a range session.
I prefer to call them "random acts of accuracy".
I like to see the results from the entire box, not just the best of the session.
I'm going to send 50 shots, might as well view the results from all 50.
Keeps things real regarding what to expect from the 22lr at extended range.
targets can look like this at 200 yards....
to this...
and when the wind and ammo quality cooperates...
Yep, that's what we've mentioned many times in different threads over the years with 22LR. The extreme spread of the velocity, assuming your wind call is correct, is the largest factor that you simply cannot control.
That's why I was hoping the 'ELR' ammo figured this out and cut this down.
German, assuming worst case, no super low ES ammo, has anyone over the years had any success trying to set a tuner to focus the positive compensation at 300 yds as a work-around ? Or a radically reverse-tapered bbl to attempt same ? Seymour
That’s obviously a rhetorical question as it is known that competition shooters in specific distance benchrest disciplines have properly applied positive compensation with great success. However, this is not a great answer for disciplines wherein the distances vary considerably and often during a single stage.
Lash, you assume a lot. The question was specific. History of tuners is common knowledge.
So, lay it on me then. What about those two questions were specific to German’s question? What in the world does a 300 yard tuned positive compensation have to do with finding a good quality ELR ammo that is usable for distances other than 300?
And just how were your two questions above not rhetorical, considering you already knew (or at least should know) the answers to them?
Tuners and long range rimfire aren't as effective as you'd hope.
Cartridge defects and the extended time of flight create too many other problems.
MV differences, asymmetric bullets, bullet seating/crimp and even minor wind changes prevent consistent trajectories.
The compensation provided by the tuner, isn't enough to overcome the limitations of the cartridge design.
Cartridge defects and the extended time of flight create too many other problems.
MV differences, asymmetric bullets, bullet seating/crimp and even minor wind changes prevent consistent trajectories.
The compensation provided by the tuner, isn't enough to overcome the limitations of the cartridge design.
. German made a statement, not a question. Do you agree ? From the “ that you simply cannot control” part, it seems to me that suggests he might know of folks who had tried and failed to find any joy with the tuner/ positive compensation bit at 300 yds. Useful to know before embarking on that quest, if so. No challenge implied. It is comical that you misconstrue this sufficiently to necessitate a rush to his defense. As to what I know or Should know, the fact is, at 200-300 and beyond, I don’t Know.
First, I wasn’t “defending” German as there was no need, nor does he require any help were there such need. My response had more to do with your asking a question that seemed rhetorical as you seemed to imply that there was an implicit answer. Obviously I gave you too much credit.
Secondly, you obviously assume that you understand what you are talking about, but have lost me. I’m glad that you enjoyed the comedy of the situation as it is just not sufficiently important enough for me to continue responding.
Carry on.
I’ve found Eley Tenex to perform well out to 500 yards with my V-22’s. I have a video of hitting a 12” steel plate 10 for 10 at 400 yards, but I can’t get the video to load with my slow internet connection here.
That's what I've been hoping to hear from someone with extended-range experience with the Eley EPS round. I'd been shooting Lapua Polar Biathlon because of its performance at 200-300, but more testing of the lot of Polar that I have has shown it's got a pretty lousy ES, while some lot samples of Eley Match EPS is showing far better ES/SD, and with slightly higher avg vel than Polar, is requiring a half mil less elevation than SK Rifle Match & Lapua Center-X at 200yds. I've got a 60 MOA rail on a V-22 Kukri, and have been wanting to test to see how far out I can get on internal elevation of the Athlon Cronus scope on that rifle - only problem is, my backstop & steel targets are still buried in snow, so I haven't been able to get out past 210yds to date.
I'm not crazy about having to use $16+/box ammo for the few 300yd shots we have in our current 22RF precision rifle matches, and there's always the chance that our match director could put a price-per-box ammo limit in the match program, and I wouldn't bitch about it if he did. I'm still thinking that lot testing with SK Flatnose, Sport Biathlon, & probably Lapua Center-X will turn up some ammo that's plenty good enough to be competitive at 300yds & beyond.
I have been shooting my Vudoo with EPS (Match and TenEx) from 300 to 600 yards and having excellent luck. Granted this is lot tested ammo and not just a random lot of ammo I ordered from Midway. During the lot testing I saw groups that were below average to outstanding with the same ammo flavor.
Hopefully this year I will get some spare time and drive down to Phoenix to have Lapua lot test my Vudoo and 40X family with suppressors attached at 100 yards. I bought 4 cases of Eley 2 years ago and I am running low.
I got my lot samples from Clint Swigert a couple of weeks ago; weather hasn't exactly been primo for testing, but I've been able to get in some shooting with the four lots I received, though limited to 210yds, and in temps no higher than 38*F. Those four lots were the only ones that Clint had in quantity, though Zanders had quite a few more lots in stock. I don't have unlimited funds or time to chase Eley lots, even though my limited experience with Match EPS is positive. Short of managing to make it out to Colorado Springs while Eley is at the Olympic Training Center, it seems my best chances of finding suitable LR ammo would be by heading for Mesa.
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Here's the results of shooting 10rd strings at 210yds out of my original V-22/Krieger 22" bbl, off portable bench with bipod & rear bag, temp 33*F, 3-5mph breeze from 9:00. SK Rifle Match left, Lapua Polar Biathlon right. This was at the end of a shooting session where I'd shot 10 shots each of Rifle Match, Polar Biathlon, and Eley Match out of V-22 Kukri, jelrod-converted 40XB, & the original V-22/Krieger. All strings were fired over a CM M1 chronograph, and I'd been down to repaint the full scale IPSC target after the first 6 strings. It'd cooled from 38* down to 33*, and the ammo had all been sitting out on the bench for the whole 45-50 minutes it took to finish up. It'd gotten cold enough so that I didn't feel like taking the time to shoot the Eley Match through the V-22's Krieger, which is why there are only two strings on the target. I've seen SK Rifle Match shoot considerably better than that at this distance, but always in warmer temps - the ES of this cold-soaked ammo was 44fps, with SD of 13, avg vel was 1045. Polar's ES was 30fps, Sd of 10, avg vel - 1074. Three lowest recorded shots were 1062, 1064, 1066fps, while the highest was 1092. I'd come down .4 mil from shooting Rifle Match before shooting the Polar. If I could find a lot of Polar with an ES comparable to Eley Match's 15-20fps, I'd expect it to be good enough to buy in quantity, especially since the Krieger on the original V-22 seems to like Polar more than the other two bbls do.
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The polar definitely shot better in the cold.
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