.22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

[Janus4088]

This got long, too long - didn't read version at end.

First let me start off by saying thank you! This community has been a wealth of information that has guided through me not just firearm purchases, but all the accessories that go along with them and the training involved.

While I originally sneered at the idea of shooting .22lr as a training platform, as I thought of it as a kiddy round, I can honestly say that shooting .22lr at 100m, and last week at 200m, has given me a lot to learn from.

I was originally inquiring here as to which caliber I should get as my first precision rifle. One of the caveats to my situation was that I am limited to 100m at all of my nearby ranges. BUT I recently made friends with a coworker that took me to a private range that his family are all members of. Not only did the facility go out to 500m, but they had steel targets up at 100m incriments!

So now that I can shoot beyond 100m regularly, I am looking to push my distance out a bit. I settled on the original idea of getting a .22lr because shooting at 100m would prove to be at a threshold where the round is challenging, but still effective, and I want to do something similar for training at 500m. For this I am considering .223, but am obviously open to suggestions.

While at the range I shot his brother's .223 Remington 700 that I believe was sporting a 24" barrel, and I really enjoyed it. It was rather windy that day, and even with the same POA the POI would shift enough to give you a miss using the .223, whereas when we were firing his 300WM, wind had no noticeable effect. This leads me to believe .223 could be a good choice for shooting at 500m in a way that still will punish me for my mistakes enough to be engaging, but not frustrating.

So far it has been suggested I look at some CZs and Savages in .223, possibly a Tikka T3 LIte. I am trying to keep this rifle in the $700-800 range without optics, but for the right rig I would be willing to spend upwards of $1100.

In perusing the web I found a Savage F/TR in .223 sporting a 30" barrel with a 1/7 twist rate that has piqued my interest due to its (supposed) ability to shoot 90gr .223 rounds at great distance. Is this vast overkill? Would I be wasting resources by going $400 over budget on a rifle capable of 1000yds when I can only shoot 500m for the forseeable future?

I should also mention this coworker has an amazing reloading setup I am sure I could sit in for an hour here and there and pump out some of my own rounds. Reloading is a hobby I want to add to my list, and I will eventually have my own setup, I just dont have the facilities or capital for it right now.

TLDR:
The distance I have available to shoot just opened up from 100m to 500m. I am looking to upgrade from my Savage MKII FV-SR .22lr trainer to a centerfire rifle more capable at 500m, while not loosing too much of the difficulty of practicing. Would you recommend .223, or another cartridge? What rifles would you recommend?

 

[Quickoz]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

223 sounds like a good choice, I recently got weatherby vanguard Sub-Moa for my partner as her hunting/target rig and for me as a short range (0-400m) training rifle. this has a 1-12T barrel and is limited to 55gr - 60gr bullets at most and gets pushed by the wind a fair bit which is one thing I like about it.

In your situation, I would recommend the 12 F/TR as it would cater for both SR training with 55gr or alike bullets and also be able to use 80gr-90gr bullets for F-Class to 1000yds when you get to it. If its going to be a Target rifle, get a heavy barrel as it will be more accurate. Other option is a Remington 700P which has a 1-9T barrel and will shoot upto 69gr SMKs but the 12F/TR will be a better alround rifle. only thing is that if you ever want to hunt with it, 30" barrel is kinda long.

Hope that helps mate.

 

[Janus4088]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

Yeah this wont be used in hunting, as .223 isn't a cartridge I would use for it. My uncle lets me use his 30-06, when I do manage to get out occasionally for game.

The 30" barrel just seems so overkill for 500m, but when my available distances do increase it would be really nice to use those heavier bullets.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

I had great luck a year ago with a Savage 12FV (26" 1:9 barrel) and Hornady 75gr Steel Match ammo. It was sub-MOA at 100yd and had no problem ringing 8" steel at 650yd.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

Janus408,

I would be very cautious about assuming that the 1x7" twist will handle the 90 grain bullets you'd need for 1,000 yard competition. Most won't. This is especially true if we're talking about a buttoned barrel, where the actual twist rate may vary by +/- a half inch in either direction from the stated twist rate. A 6.5" or faster twist is recommended by most of the bullet makers who do 90 grain match bullets, and I've seen lots of 7" twist barrels that (sure enough) wouldn't shoot the heavy weight bullets. The 80s will do just fine in the 1x7" twist, but are marginal at 1,000 yards, and have to be pushed really hard to get there.

For the life of me, I don't get why so many guys are down on rimfires as trainers. They're harder to shoot well than centerfires, place a much greater demand on wind reading and are brutally unforgiving to any shift or discrepencies in hold or position. I know virtually all of the US High Power champions over the past 20 years or so, and most of them are close personal friends. With just one exception, each and every single one of them started their competitive careers shooting rimfire. David Tubb, Carl Bernosky, Nancy Tompkins, Sherri Gallagher, ALL of them were very strong rimfire shooters. Nancy still competes in rimfire matches, and is ranked as one of the best in the nation today. I still train using an AR-15 built as a dedicated 22 rimfire, shooting weekly indoor matches in the off season, and training daily with it during the actual season. It's set up exactly like my comptetive guns, and feels exactly the same when I'm shooting it. I do the same with my Long Range guns, and have a Rem 40-X rimfire that's set up in the same stock, same sights, same trigger, etc., as my LR Match rifles. Again, no difference when shooting it, other than the fact that the rimfire is far less forgiving of mistakes, and more difficult to shoot well. Seriously, they're the best training tools available for the High Power or Long range shooter.

 

[Janus4088]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

Thank you for the reply Thomas.
I have a .22lr trainer that I have obtained for training because I totally agree with you. I am just saying that I cannot use it at 500m (ran out of elevation at 200m, but I have since ordered a 25MOA base). I wanted to add something to my collection that will let me take advantage of shooting at 500m while still helping me increase my skill level.

90% of my shooting time will still be on my .22lr at 100m, as I have access to this 500m range maybe once a month. But that once a month trip I want to get the most out of, and I cannot rely on using his 700 in .223. I want to have something of my own.

I also go on backpacking trips 3-4 times a year for a week or two at a time, and I would like to have a bolt action rifle with a cartridge larger than .22lr for those trips, so now that I think about it the 30" barrel isn't a smart idea... So I will probably be limited to 1/8 twist out of 24" or 26" barrels.

The 90gr match bullets weren't a deal breaker for me, I would be fine with 70/75/77/80gr bullets.

I should mention that in 18 months I will be getting a .308, so in the interim I am looking for something to cover the 200m or 300m -> 500m gap left between my .22lr and the available distances I have to shoot.

In 18 months I will be done with POST and field training, so I will be rewarding myself with a more substantial centerfire rifle. I will also gain access to my semi-local LEO range that stretches out to 800m.

 

[NaHa]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

OP, I'd recommend you disregard the .223 unless that's your plan for longer-term shooting. If you want to shoot to 500m, and ultimately farther, and compete in tactical matches or F/TR or whatever, then choose your next rifle as what you'll run in such affairs. Be it a .308, .260, 6.5 Creedmoor, whatever.

I suppose some guys might contemplate such increments, e.g. going from a rimfire to 200y to a .223 for 400y to a .308 for 800y to a .300 Win mag to 1,200y to a .338 Lapua for 1,600y.

Me, if I plan on shooting tac or F-class matches, I'm going to shoot my .308 and learn IT. Whether at 200y + or 500y or 1,000y. And for inexpensive practice to read wind/conditions, sight picture, trigger pulling, and position shooting, I'm going to use my Anschutz .22. In other words, I don't need an in-between. And I don't think you do either.

If you wanted to try for leg points at NRA Highpower matches, then by all means the rat gun is the way to go.

 

[Janus4088]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

Thank you for your input NaHa. I suppose I could skip the intermediate step of a .223 and jump right into a .308.

 

[NaHa]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

I spend quite a bit of time in the SF east bay. If you want to try a .308 and a .223 (I have both!), then we can meet at a range. Hell, I'll bring the .22 and see how it shoots vs. yours.

PM if you like.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

If I were you, the only reason I wouldn't be going .308 now is if the cost of ammunition is something you're worried about, and you're intending on shooting high volumes that would justify the cost of two rifles versus just one. Otherwise shooting is shooting and you'll learn the wind and other fundamentals with the .308 just as well.

 

[sib1948]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

I love my Savage MKII 22LR for cheap training, but shoot my Rem 700 5r 308 the most at 500+ yards and love it. Teaches plenty about wind drift, weather and reloading. Just started 500 yd F/TR matches and learn more each time. Several competitors shoot custom 223s and kick butt, so either would work. Cost of ammo the big difference. Remember each rifle will need its own scope unless you're going to swap and rezero each time. Scope levels can also make a difference at 500+ yds. I have a 223, but have never gotten a decent scope for it. Have an AR 15 with ACOG for 100-300 yd shooting, but definitely not precision shooting.

Go to a local F/TR match, if any near you and talk with the competitors or hook up with NaHa above to get a better idea of what might work best for you. I just purchased reloading gear due to recent rise in ammunition prices, which will be my next adventure in LR shooting. New venues always seem to find a way to pop up in this sport requiring new investments. The fun and challenges never seem to end. Good luck.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: .22lr trainer moving to .223, or?

i'll go with NaHa on that, the .223 is fine and all, but going right to the .308, .243, .260, 7mm 08 has more confidence at 500.

plus grab some dies, heads, powder, a load manual or two and a how to reload manual if you son't already know how.

i read that your getting a .308 anyway in 18mths, perhaps hold off on getting that interim rifle and put whatever $ you would invest in that interim rifle into an optic and other creature comforts so that the .308 or whatever you decide on is just that much more sweeter.

i know it's hard to hold off when you have an itch to get something.