I am in the market for a trainer and am looking for some input on the best calibre. The 22 ammo is definitely cheaper but 17 is way faster. I don't know much about the 17HMR downrange ballistics. Anyone have thoughts or experience on this topic?
22LR vs 17HMR
- Thread starter marksman25
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Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
it depends on what you are using it for, target or hunting? plinking?
copy and paste this goole search in your address box, a ton of related topics
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=010955...?cx=010955838166721108978%3Aqcbx5qqy10o&hl=en
it depends on what you are using it for, target or hunting? plinking?
copy and paste this goole search in your address box, a ton of related topics
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=010955...?cx=010955838166721108978%3Aqcbx5qqy10o&hl=en
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
Get both is a great idea if I had unlimited funds. The comparison wasn't really "cheap" vs "fast" although I admit that is how it reads. I was really wondering if the 17HMR is enough better ballistically than the .22 to make it worth the extra money to shoot. Its really fast, really light, jacketed bullet vs kind of slow, twice as heavy, non aerodynamic chunk of lead question.
Get both is a great idea if I had unlimited funds. The comparison wasn't really "cheap" vs "fast" although I admit that is how it reads. I was really wondering if the 17HMR is enough better ballistically than the .22 to make it worth the extra money to shoot. Its really fast, really light, jacketed bullet vs kind of slow, twice as heavy, non aerodynamic chunk of lead question.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
Also take into consideration if you are going to do any hunting with the round. IMO, if there is any small game, varmint, or some predator hunting involved, the .17hmr has an advantage on power and usable range. If it's just for a trainer, and shooting targets then I personally would get the .22lr.
Also take into consideration if you are going to do any hunting with the round. IMO, if there is any small game, varmint, or some predator hunting involved, the .17hmr has an advantage on power and usable range. If it's just for a trainer, and shooting targets then I personally would get the .22lr.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
In that case, get an accurate factory rifle in .22, either Savage or a CZ. Match ammo is in no shortage so that's not a problem. Invest in a high quality base and rings and a decent glass. You will have a hellava combo for both training and hunting. Extra range, speed, and energy of .17hmr, sure, but then there is always .204 if these are your major concerns...
hope it helps.
In that case, get an accurate factory rifle in .22, either Savage or a CZ. Match ammo is in no shortage so that's not a problem. Invest in a high quality base and rings and a decent glass. You will have a hellava combo for both training and hunting. Extra range, speed, and energy of .17hmr, sure, but then there is always .204 if these are your major concerns...
hope it helps.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
I like both rounds, but if I were only going to shoot one for training it would probably be the .22lr.
You'll learn more shooting the .22lr than you will shooting the .17hmr since it shoots so flat.
I like both rounds, but if I were only going to shoot one for training it would probably be the .22lr.
You'll learn more shooting the .22lr than you will shooting the .17hmr since it shoots so flat.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
because the .17 is so flat shooting, if it comes to a "trainer" it's "too flat" - meaning if you want to practice holdovers, drop compensating, etc., you don't get the same education as if using the much more arching .22lr.
the .17 is devastating for hunting, BUT has alot of wind drift with that light 17 or 20 grain bullet. so conditions have to be somewhat calm for higher percentage hits at longer distances during windy conditions. sure speed kills, but slow and steady wins the race in the long run.
the .22lr is cheaper, only if you use cheaper ammo. there's lots of match grade stuff out there that is more expensive to shoot than the .17, but on the other hand the .22lr has alot more options in the ammo department. a "mid priced" match ammo can allow you to put more quality and quantity of trigger time for a smaller budget.
though the .22 bullet is a non aerodynamic chunk of lead, it is a stable one in flight at standard, match, or subsonic speeds which shows up on paper consistantly. that kind of makes up for it not having a nicely done spire or ballistic tip.
so for paper / trainer reasons i'd go with .22lr for the stability it provides, the numerous options in ammo (which also relates to cost) for the intended purpose be it target or shorter range hunting, the option of having numerous NRA and non NRA rimfire competitions to compete in if so desired (most are restricted to .22lr).
for hunting (in real world field conditions under 150 yards) i'd take the .17 (actually i'd take the .22 magnum, less wind drift, more ammo options).
because the .17 is so flat shooting, if it comes to a "trainer" it's "too flat" - meaning if you want to practice holdovers, drop compensating, etc., you don't get the same education as if using the much more arching .22lr.
the .17 is devastating for hunting, BUT has alot of wind drift with that light 17 or 20 grain bullet. so conditions have to be somewhat calm for higher percentage hits at longer distances during windy conditions. sure speed kills, but slow and steady wins the race in the long run.
the .22lr is cheaper, only if you use cheaper ammo. there's lots of match grade stuff out there that is more expensive to shoot than the .17, but on the other hand the .22lr has alot more options in the ammo department. a "mid priced" match ammo can allow you to put more quality and quantity of trigger time for a smaller budget.
though the .22 bullet is a non aerodynamic chunk of lead, it is a stable one in flight at standard, match, or subsonic speeds which shows up on paper consistantly. that kind of makes up for it not having a nicely done spire or ballistic tip.
so for paper / trainer reasons i'd go with .22lr for the stability it provides, the numerous options in ammo (which also relates to cost) for the intended purpose be it target or shorter range hunting, the option of having numerous NRA and non NRA rimfire competitions to compete in if so desired (most are restricted to .22lr).
for hunting (in real world field conditions under 150 yards) i'd take the .17 (actually i'd take the .22 magnum, less wind drift, more ammo options).
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
I agree 100% with TP (that's Top Predator, not Toilet Paper, though I agree with using that, too).
I have them both and love them both. For a strict trainer, you are better off with a 22LR. It will give you practice doping and shooting at UKD. The 17 has very little drop. I use the same dope at 50 and 100 and 200 isn't that much of an adjustment. For the 22, I zero at 50, have 1.1 mils of come up at 100, and about 7.5 mils of come up at 200.
I had fun once shooting turtles as they popped their heads up at one of our tanks once. The shots ranged from 50 - 75 yards and if you didn't dope properly for those distances, you were guaranteed a miss. That is good practice. I would have been a lot more effective with a 17, because I would have just been able to lay the cross hairs on the critter and pull the trigger as opposed to fudging .1 or .2 mils.
The one reason to go with a 17HMR over a 22 for a trainer is that you can get a pretty dead nuts accurate 17 HMR for $350. At 100 yards, my $350 17 HMR and my $2,000 22LR are close in accuracy and at 200, my 17 HMR wins. You can get cheap 22's, but to get them to the level of accuracy I like, you have to drop some cash on them. A 17 is what it is.
I have a Marlin and and Anschutz (17HMR), and they shoot very similarly. Now I love the Anschutz more, but that is probably because I spent a lot more on it. Well, it also has a better stock and a rail and better mags and better machining.
To summarize: 22LR.
I agree 100% with TP (that's Top Predator, not Toilet Paper, though I agree with using that, too).
I have them both and love them both. For a strict trainer, you are better off with a 22LR. It will give you practice doping and shooting at UKD. The 17 has very little drop. I use the same dope at 50 and 100 and 200 isn't that much of an adjustment. For the 22, I zero at 50, have 1.1 mils of come up at 100, and about 7.5 mils of come up at 200.
I had fun once shooting turtles as they popped their heads up at one of our tanks once. The shots ranged from 50 - 75 yards and if you didn't dope properly for those distances, you were guaranteed a miss. That is good practice. I would have been a lot more effective with a 17, because I would have just been able to lay the cross hairs on the critter and pull the trigger as opposed to fudging .1 or .2 mils.
The one reason to go with a 17HMR over a 22 for a trainer is that you can get a pretty dead nuts accurate 17 HMR for $350. At 100 yards, my $350 17 HMR and my $2,000 22LR are close in accuracy and at 200, my 17 HMR wins. You can get cheap 22's, but to get them to the level of accuracy I like, you have to drop some cash on them. A 17 is what it is.
I have a Marlin and and Anschutz (17HMR), and they shoot very similarly. Now I love the Anschutz more, but that is probably because I spent a lot more on it. Well, it also has a better stock and a rail and better mags and better machining.
To summarize: 22LR.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
I kind of use them for different "styles" of shooting. If I'm shooting for real precision and tight groups, I'll use my Savage MKII FV .22lr at 50 or 100. If I feel like pegging steel at long distance I'll use my Marlin 917VR .17 HMR out to 400 or so.
I kind of use them for different "styles" of shooting. If I'm shooting for real precision and tight groups, I'll use my Savage MKII FV .22lr at 50 or 100. If I feel like pegging steel at long distance I'll use my Marlin 917VR .17 HMR out to 400 or so.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
2 different animals. Keep in mind this is like saying I want a new 30 cal rifle and am trying to decide between a 30-30 and 300 Win Mag. A lot of guys solution is buy both. Makes sense because they are so vastly different! Most of the positives and negatives have already been mentioned. I will have both soon as I need to complete my rimfire collection. Good luck with your decision and make sure you keep us informed with your progress.
2 different animals. Keep in mind this is like saying I want a new 30 cal rifle and am trying to decide between a 30-30 and 300 Win Mag. A lot of guys solution is buy both. Makes sense because they are so vastly different! Most of the positives and negatives have already been mentioned. I will have both soon as I need to complete my rimfire collection. Good luck with your decision and make sure you keep us informed with your progress.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
Thanks again for the input. I should be getting the rifle in about a week. I will add pics and a range report.
Thanks again for the input. I should be getting the rifle in about a week. I will add pics and a range report.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
Sounds like you've made the decision, but I thought I would add that, from what I can find, the ballistic coefficient for the 17 HMR (apparently regardless of bullet configuration - HP or ballistic tip - and weight - 17 or 20 grain) is about 0.125, while 22 lr can get up over 0.2. I would have expected a better BC for the 17.
I will have to say that the 17 is fun to shoot, though - I really enjoy my Savage 93R17 thumbhole.
Then again, subsonic 22 lr with a can is hell on varmints and pests in the yard!
Sounds like you've made the decision, but I thought I would add that, from what I can find, the ballistic coefficient for the 17 HMR (apparently regardless of bullet configuration - HP or ballistic tip - and weight - 17 or 20 grain) is about 0.125, while 22 lr can get up over 0.2. I would have expected a better BC for the 17.
I will have to say that the 17 is fun to shoot, though - I really enjoy my Savage 93R17 thumbhole.
Then again, subsonic 22 lr with a can is hell on varmints and pests in the yard!
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
^ That's because the bullet for a 17 is a lot more aerodynamic than a 22, which had to be done in order to give it it's well known speed. I too have noticed no real difference in ballistics when using 17 or 20 grain. Some say that the 20 is better for longer distances, but so far I have seen no evidence of that.
^ That's because the bullet for a 17 is a lot more aerodynamic than a 22, which had to be done in order to give it it's well known speed. I too have noticed no real difference in ballistics when using 17 or 20 grain. Some say that the 20 is better for longer distances, but so far I have seen no evidence of that.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
Comparing a 17HMR to a 22LR is like comparing a 22-250 to a 308. The 22-250 is a lot faster, but the bullet is a lot lighter, and generally pretty short to get the weight low enough to attain the high MV's.
The 22-250 is not a viable option at 1,000 yards because the bullet has such a low BC that the high MV is not retained very well. This is similar to the 17 HMR. It bucks wind similarly to the 22LR only what the 22LR does with BC, the 17HMR does with MV.
I should note that I shot a local match once at 100 yards with my 17 and 22 side by side. I actually was able to finish both in the allotted time. I had 3 cleans out of 3 targets with my 22. I had one clean out of 3 targets with my 17... BUT... the shots that were out on my 17 were low fliers (likely ammo caused), not wide right shots. And my 22 was close to dropping 2 cleans based on 2 shots that were both outside. Had they not lined up exactly right vertically, I would have dropped points.
The lesson there is that the good ammo available for 22LR is what keeps it alive in the accuracy game. For 17HMR, there is one grade of ammo for each bullet. Take it or leave it. And BTW... quality match 22 ammo costs more than 17HMR ammo.
Comparing a 17HMR to a 22LR is like comparing a 22-250 to a 308. The 22-250 is a lot faster, but the bullet is a lot lighter, and generally pretty short to get the weight low enough to attain the high MV's.
The 22-250 is not a viable option at 1,000 yards because the bullet has such a low BC that the high MV is not retained very well. This is similar to the 17 HMR. It bucks wind similarly to the 22LR only what the 22LR does with BC, the 17HMR does with MV.
I should note that I shot a local match once at 100 yards with my 17 and 22 side by side. I actually was able to finish both in the allotted time. I had 3 cleans out of 3 targets with my 22. I had one clean out of 3 targets with my 17... BUT... the shots that were out on my 17 were low fliers (likely ammo caused), not wide right shots. And my 22 was close to dropping 2 cleans based on 2 shots that were both outside. Had they not lined up exactly right vertically, I would have dropped points.
The lesson there is that the good ammo available for 22LR is what keeps it alive in the accuracy game. For 17HMR, there is one grade of ammo for each bullet. Take it or leave it. And BTW... quality match 22 ammo costs more than 17HMR ammo.
L
longguntoter
Guest
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
I feel as though at ranges up to 100 yards, in a wind, the .22 is better. It does not take much wind to move my .17 bullets all over the map. Overall, considering environmental conditions or just plain ol' my shooting, I still do better with the .17 HMR than I do with any of my rifles chambered in .22 LR. JMHO.
I feel as though at ranges up to 100 yards, in a wind, the .22 is better. It does not take much wind to move my .17 bullets all over the map. Overall, considering environmental conditions or just plain ol' my shooting, I still do better with the .17 HMR than I do with any of my rifles chambered in .22 LR. JMHO.
L
longguntoter
Guest
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmallBoreSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^ That's because the bullet for a 17 is a lot more aerodynamic than a 22, which had to be done in order to give it it's well known speed. I too have noticed no real difference in ballistics when using 17 or 20 grain. Some say that the 20 is better for longer distances, but so far I have seen no evidence of that. </div></div>Nice Rifle!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmallBoreSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^ That's because the bullet for a 17 is a lot more aerodynamic than a 22, which had to be done in order to give it it's well known speed. I too have noticed no real difference in ballistics when using 17 or 20 grain. Some say that the 20 is better for longer distances, but so far I have seen no evidence of that. </div></div>Nice Rifle!
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
Do you guys that claim that wind drift is worse with an HMR then the 22 Mag actually look at any of the ballistic charts compareing the two. The HMR as way less wind drift then 22lr or 22mag unless your trying to shoot 400 yards...
Go here and compare the two.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rimfire.aspx
The HMR has almost half the wind drift in comparable bullet weights.
Do you guys that claim that wind drift is worse with an HMR then the 22 Mag actually look at any of the ballistic charts compareing the two. The HMR as way less wind drift then 22lr or 22mag unless your trying to shoot 400 yards...
Go here and compare the two.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rimfire.aspx
The HMR has almost half the wind drift in comparable bullet weights.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
I bought a 17hmr then sold it for the same rifle in .22lr.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Checkout http://www.6mmbr.com/rimfiretactical.html</span>
Notice charts comparing .22lr performance to .308. i.e. 22lr drift at 200yds is pretty much equivalent to 308 drift at 440yds.
For the price of 17hmr, I figured I may as well be shooting 223 ammo. Works out to about the same cost.
I bought a 17hmr then sold it for the same rifle in .22lr.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Checkout http://www.6mmbr.com/rimfiretactical.html</span>
Notice charts comparing .22lr performance to .308. i.e. 22lr drift at 200yds is pretty much equivalent to 308 drift at 440yds.
For the price of 17hmr, I figured I may as well be shooting 223 ammo. Works out to about the same cost.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
I really enjoy shooting my 17 - a Savage 93R17 thumbhole, and I'm not really sure why. I think the 22 is better if you want to train for long range "rainbow" shooting (or just enjoy doing that with rimfires), since the 17 is so much faster. From what I've found, the BC for both the 17 and 20-grain bullets is only 0.125, while 22's can be over 0.2. I am non-plussed by the cost of 17 HMR ammo, but not feeling compelled to pick up brass makes a nice change from the 223's and 308's, and it is just fun to shoot.
I really enjoy shooting my 17 - a Savage 93R17 thumbhole, and I'm not really sure why. I think the 22 is better if you want to train for long range "rainbow" shooting (or just enjoy doing that with rimfires), since the 17 is so much faster. From what I've found, the BC for both the 17 and 20-grain bullets is only 0.125, while 22's can be over 0.2. I am non-plussed by the cost of 17 HMR ammo, but not feeling compelled to pick up brass makes a nice change from the 223's and 308's, and it is just fun to shoot.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
It's all about what you're actually trying to do:
Cheap training = 22LR.
Expensive training = Handloaded on your "real" gun.
Small game hunting = 17
It's all about what you're actually trying to do:
Cheap training = 22LR.
Expensive training = Handloaded on your "real" gun.
Small game hunting = 17
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
I just picked up a used CZ452 American in 17HMR off Gunbroker. I was surprised to find it's actually a 17HM2. Guess I shouldn't have bought 3 boxes of 17HMR @ Powder Valley. Sent an email to the original owner - WTF? I guess he didn't realize what cartridge he was shooting.
The Mach2 (17HM2) is a necked down 22 LR and the 17HMR is a necked down 22 magnum, right? I'll see what he comes back with, but I may have 3 boxes of Hornady 17HMR (I ordered 3 different loadings to try out) in case someone wants them. I really wanted a CZ and I'm not particular about the chambering, really.
I just picked up a used CZ452 American in 17HMR off Gunbroker. I was surprised to find it's actually a 17HM2. Guess I shouldn't have bought 3 boxes of 17HMR @ Powder Valley. Sent an email to the original owner - WTF? I guess he didn't realize what cartridge he was shooting.
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
17Mach2 kicks ass. Less than 1" elevation change from 25 yards to 100 yards. Packs a wallop on p-dogs out to about 175 yards. Ammo was real cheap and plentiful a few years back - picked up a lifetime supply for half the price per box of HMR and about the price of the cheap "match" 22LR ammo - $4/50.
Ammo to go has the Eley in stock for $5/box. That was just the first hit off the google search.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/rifle-ammo-17-mach-2
17Mach2 kicks ass. Less than 1" elevation change from 25 yards to 100 yards. Packs a wallop on p-dogs out to about 175 yards. Ammo was real cheap and plentiful a few years back - picked up a lifetime supply for half the price per box of HMR and about the price of the cheap "match" 22LR ammo - $4/50.
Ammo to go has the Eley in stock for $5/box. That was just the first hit off the google search.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/rifle-ammo-17-mach-2
Re: 22LR vs 17HMR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flyrodder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will have to say that the 17 is fun to shoot, though - I really enjoy my Savage 93R17 thumbhole.</div></div>
As others have stated having both is the best options but the true answer revolves around what you plan to do with it. I have a 10/22 and Savage 17hmr. The savage is crazy accurate as is the 10/22 but the 22lr is much more enjoyable to shoot because the ammo is readily available, cheaper usually and you dont need a 200 yard range to practice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flyrodder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will have to say that the 17 is fun to shoot, though - I really enjoy my Savage 93R17 thumbhole.</div></div>
As others have stated having both is the best options but the true answer revolves around what you plan to do with it. I have a 10/22 and Savage 17hmr. The savage is crazy accurate as is the 10/22 but the 22lr is much more enjoyable to shoot because the ammo is readily available, cheaper usually and you dont need a 200 yard range to practice.
