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Range Report .260 round and competition.

rickp

rickp

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 24, 2008
454
2
Miami, Florida
www.threatsolutionsgroup.com
Hey guys,
This topic has come up a few times and I'm curious to say the least. The topic is this caliber and how its better suited to shoot out to 1000y in competition. Why is the .260 better than the .308 in this aspect? I mean it's a smaller round and lighter, so why better.

Thanks.
R.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

6.5 bullets have better BC, more velocity, and less recoil than .308 cal bullets. Only downside is less barrel life.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 260 shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6.5 bullets have better BC, more velocity, and less recoil than .308 cal bullets. Only downside is less barrel life. </div></div>

I understand that holds true for 168 and 175 grain .308 bullets, but what about with heavier .308 bullets (ie the bullets you'd use in 300 win mag)? Does the profile of these heavier bullets match that of the 6.5s, but with a higher weight giving better ballistics?
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

whoa...............


someone needs to educate themselves on what boolets are winning matches.......
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Will, all sorts of bullets win matches but that doesnt make that bullet a better bullet than another which has superior speed , flatter flight path and that bucks the wind better.Its just some people shoot whatever bullet well .The 260 pisses on the 308 and the 260AI is even better.example using the Pejsa ballistics program

308 155 palma by sierra .450bc 2870fps= 36.04 elevation and wind 90deg 10mph 11.2 windage
260 139 gr lapua scenar .615 bc 2870fps =28.26 elevation and wind 90deg 10mph 7.1 windage

I know what id have.cheers

 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 260 shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6.5 bullets have better BC, more velocity, and less recoil than .308 cal bullets. Only downside is less barrel life. </div></div>

WHat is the expected barrel life, of the 260?
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

I believe anywhere from 1500-3000 rounds probably more like 2000-2500.If barrel wear is and cost is your major factor shoot the 308, it still kicks arse out to 800 yards but after that you would want that 260 on your side especially in wind
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
This topic has come up a few times and I'm curious to say the least. The topic is this caliber and how its better suited to shoot out to 1000y in competition. Why is the .260 better than the .308 in this aspect? I mean it's a smaller round and lighter, so why better.

Thanks.
R.
</div></div>

It depends on the competition. If you are talking F-class, you will not be competing with .308 Winchester with your .260; you will be going up against the likes of the 6.5X284 and other similar calibers.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Everything I've seen here makes sense.

I think the key here is to understand that for a given BC, other dimensions are not comparable. A .308 bullet of X BC, sent at the same velocity as a .264 bullet of the same BC, performs the same with regard to drop and drift.

The difference here is that the .308 bullets with X BC is going to have more mass than the .264 bullets with the same BC. Unfortunately for the .308, it has no more case capacity than the .260, so the same capacity will drive the .264 bullet faster, deriving less drop and drift.

The .260AI will have the same advantage over the .260.

Greg
 
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Re: .260 round and competition.

Today, there are so many divisions of NRA LR, it's got something for everybody, you can play it with emphasis on whatever you're interested in: skill, equipment, and/or ammunition.

I like Service Rifle division. A good rifle and massaged ammunition are important, but, most of all, Service Rifle is about the shooter mustering consistent perspective of aim and rifle control, in addition to countering the effects of wind and weather as demanded in any division. Of course, in Service Rifle division, it's .308 or .223.

Service Rifle division, although difficult, is often as rewarding as it is frustrating. I can shoot better scores with my 6.5/284, but, the experience is not as gratifying overall, and certainly it's not as economical as Service Rifle.

My point, if LR is calling out to you, consider Service Rifle division. Contrary to popular belief, you don't need eagle-eye vision to establish a consistent relationship between the front sight and target, and, in fact, there are strategies you can use to be successful without ever actually seeing your target.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

I shot a match at 600 yds last weekend where you also have to score the other shooters. Winds was 10mph with gust up to 17mph at the 8 oclock. Two shooters was shooting 175SMK they both hit the X twice in a row. The wind let off and they shot 8 inches to the right. The BCs gives better windage. They were around 3.5 moas where I was aroud 1.5 Moas. Therefore wind there is variances in the wind the higher BCs will give you more accuracy. The bullet however does not make the shooter or the shot. I have seen people hammer shots with the 308 but they are great shooters. The 260 allows the shooter to have a more forgiving shot with the wind.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

R,

The only way to explain it is to enter the ballistics into a bal. calculator and compare the different rounds. Get the BC's of the different 308 and 260 bullets (or any other bullets) and their velocities. Enter this info into the calculator, and copy and paste the results into Excel. This way you can compare them side by side, and you will see the differences. The 260 will out perform the 308 in elevation and windage.

http://www.mega.nu:8080/traj_dat.html
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

If I understand what I have read then the 243 with a 115 will have a better BC than the 260 with a 139 or 308 with 175. If so the 243 will be much more forgiving and flatter shooting than both the 260 or 308? Is this correct.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

The 243 is an excellent round. The BCs on the 115s is .585. This is the David Tubb claim to glory at Camp Perrys Shoot. Except it was in a 6XC. The 260 has a litle higher BC in the lapuas 139 at .615 BC. not much but still better. The 243 you can push them faster but they are a barrel burner. The 260 should get longer barrel life out of it.
I have a 243 and a 260 barrel getting made right now.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

All,

All barrels are temporary. If you are competing at LR at the highest level, barrels, lots of 'em, are going to be part of the experience. If you're just getting into LR get basic prone skills down with a .22 LR, then, get a good .308 for any division of LR to get the hang of it all, like understanding the effects of wind and weather. After you reach HM take the leap to something like a 6.5/284 to win against other fully prepped top competitors.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

I agree with the that. The 6.5/284 is the king of long distance. The barrel life is only about 900 to 1500 rounds. The 260 is about 4000 rounds. The 260 will hold its own in any match.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Today, there are so many divisions of NRA LR, it's got something for everybody, you can play it with emphasis on whatever you're interested in: skill, equipment, and/or ammunition.

I like Service Rifle division. A good rifle and massaged ammunition are important, but, most of all, Service Rifle is about the shooter mustering consistent perspective of aim and rifle control, in addition to countering the effects of wind and weather as demanded in any division. Of course, in Service Rifle division, it's .308 or .223.

(snip) </div></div>

All you want, my point was that if the OP is trying to decide between .260 or .308 he is making a big mistake thinking the .260 is head and shoulders above the .308. In matches where the .260 is allowed, it will not be the top dog and it will most probably not be competing against the .308 or certainly not one being used by the leaders in that division.

Palma is .308 only.
Service Rifle is .223 and 308 (and probably 30-06 also.)
F-T/R is .223 and .308.

And for example where the .260 would be allowed, F-open is dominated by 6.5-284. Fill in the other divisions that you want.

So, if the OP is looking at .260 thinking it will easily beat a .308 in a match; that may be but it won't happen in an NRA-sanctionned match and where the .260 is allowed, it will overshadowed by other calibers.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Very true. IF you break it down that way. But the question was is the 260 vs 308. The 308 has alot of advantages in overall uses. I still think the 260 is over the 308 but if I had one gun from this day forward. It would be the 308 for alot of reasons.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Dar, I totally agree with you. My two favorite rifle calibers are .223 and .308. In fact, I got rid of all others as none are as interesting to me as these two. They are superly accurate and highly efficient. I use both in F-T/R.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

doing some math......7mmWSM???

Still in a Short Action. Yes it is a Magnum Primer. Based on Sierra using the 180VLD you are still humming along supersonic at 1800 Yards. For a small bullet with not alot of powder (compared to a .338LM) it seems to be a hell of a round.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

260 flat out gets it done, with lower recoil, better BC, and decent barrel life.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

You also have to remember there are many different types of competitions. I have never seen a 6.5x284 in a tactical/sniper match. You see that round in bench shooting or F class (F open) when you normally shoot a slower string. Tactical matches you often shoot 5-10 rounds in 20 seconds. Barrels will get pretty hot. So, I think you have to cater the caliber to the competition you will be shooting. The 260 is coming on very strong in tactical matches. There are always shooters with this caliber, and sometimes a few AR-10's in 260.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jackinfl</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 260 shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6.5 bullets have better BC, more velocity, and less recoil than .308 cal bullets. Only downside is less barrel life. </div></div>

WHat is the expected barrel life, of the 260? </div></div>

At the last LR match my log book indicated 1850 rounds and she still held a touch over 1/2MOA at my 500 and 600yard strings.

Note: I am only pushing my 139s at 2800FPS with H4831SC...but at 1900 rounds I am seeing a lil more copper when cleaning.

YMMV,

Vu
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

I have a couple of 308s an have shot the barrels out of 2 6.5x284s in tactical matches. I am on my 4th 260 and I have to say a 260 "IS" head an shoulders above a 308 in the field when shooting in the wind an shooting at unknown distances.

When I went to the 260 I used to joke with about how much better my wind calls got.

I use the 123s now instead of the 140s and its like having my 6.5x284 back again. It shoot nearly as flat an is close on wind drift. Pushing a 123 Lapua at nearly 3000fps with a BC of around .547 is a damn good tactical round in anyones book!!
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

The 260 is hands down the winner in BCs. The wind has little affect on the round. It likes to shoot around 2800fps and will get the job done. The only comparison is early. Was the 308 is a more complte cal. Simply by the number of rounds the barrel can take. The 260 I would say would be about half (3000 to 4000). Don't get me wrong I shoot a 260 and love it. But I stand by my 308 and would not get rid of her.
Depends on really on if you shoot alot and dont mind rebarreling rifles. To me I would rebarrel a rifle in a second to have the advantages of a 260.
The 308 on the other hand is like your first hod rod, just can't sell her.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Borescoping, testing throat erosion, and consultation with my barrel's maker had led me to expect a barrel life of around 2400-2500 rounds from my custom .260 barrel. That assumption is based on shooting a high BC projectile at nearly a maximum load.

However, nowadays, my shooting has transitioned to shooting light-for-chambering projectiles at minimum published loads, so it could be logical to expect bore life to extend beyond my previous estimate.

The comment about the .260 not being the fire breathing dragon in competitions where it is permitted is very true. Such competitions are usually dominated by 6.5-284, and maybe rightly so.

But shooters using the 6.5-284 are in a different league, intensity-wise, from me; and can be expected to get a year, or less, of service from their barrels. My barrel has been in service for about 5 years, and could outlive me. That's because it is reserved nearly solely for competitive shooting. I do almost all my other shooting with other implements, to save my bore.

I have only ever once been in a financial position to obtain a custom barrel, and I treat mine like prime unobtanium. All my rifles have ordained purposes, never to be forsaken. Shooting, for me, is a lot more than just a hobby, and conserving my implements is a crucial part of my avocation. But it is also quite far from being an all-consuming obsession.

My philosophy allows for me to lose. It had better, because I do a lot of that lately. Enough so, recently, that I am forced to reprioritize my shooting time.

I had concluded, incorrectly, that I could only afford to do practice shooting on a severely limited scale.

I have consequently concluded that I cannot afford not to, because my escalating ineptitude was costing me far more in wasted ammo and bore life than would be acceptable even under more favorable financial (and other) conditions.

But that practice shooting will still be getting done with a different implement from my match rifle. It's bore life has become an even more valuable resource with the recent passage of time.

Greg
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) The wind has little affect on the round. (snip) </div></div>

That's an interesting statement. I always believed the wind to have the same effect on bullets of the same sectional density. The BC (which is governed by the SD but also by the shape of the bullet) simply allowed the bullet to not lose speed as quickly as a bullet with a lesser BC value. The consequence of this is that a higher BC bullet would retain more of its initial velocity longer and since velocity has a time factor, the faster the bullet goes the less time it is in flight. The less time the bullet spends in the wind, the less the wind can deflect it. So I always thought that it was not so much that a high BC bullet slips through the wind undisturbed, but rather that it's simply not in the wind long enough to be disturbed.

So within the same caliber, a heavier bullet will have a higher SD and if the shape is held constant, it will have a better BC than a lighter bullet. All thing being equal, the heavier bullet should spend less time in flight and thus be less affected by the wind. Unfortunately all things are never equal; the lighter bullet will usually have a higher initial (muzzle) velocity than the heavier bullet so that for the short range we do not see much of a difference in wind deflection between a light fast bullet and a heavier slower bullet. As the distance increase and velocity bleeds off, things change and the bullet with the lower sectional density is more affected by the wind and actually will spend more time in the wind thsn the heavier bullet.

Sectional density is the bullet weight divided by the square of the diameter. Given the same material for the bullet (lead core with gilding metal cover, the only way to increase sectional density in the same caliber is to make the bullet longer. I would think that a longer bullet presents more surface area for the wind to act on which somewhat negates the increase in sectional density. Now, if we could use a denser material, we could have a shorter bullet with a higher SD and the corresponding increase in BC, without the increase in surface area for the wind. Depleted Uranium anyone? Ok, how about gold?
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Over the years, it has dawned on me that drop and drift are largely consequences of flight time. Better BC equates to less flight time, hence less deflection.

My money's on Bismuth and some variant of Hevishot as practical core material replacements for lead. I have several pounds of bismuth onhand, both in miniglobule and crystalline needle forms. It is not a direct replacement for lead, as it melts hotter, is less maleable, and does some nasty things to melters. It also expands when solidifying, and this works hobb on the casting process. I suspect the better method would be swage cores from coils of bismuth wire, but the process is likely to require a lot more energy than lead would. But aside from these concerns, I would consider it to be one of the more likely and/or practical alternatives.

Greg
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Shorter bullet makes no difference as it is not the wind pushing on the side of the bullet over the time of flight that causes wind drift. What causes wind drift is ultimately the drag which is determined by the BC. A bullet in flight maintains the center of air pressure on its nose and the points slightly into the wind. Therefore the wind exerts a force onto the frontal drag component rather than exerting any force on the side of the bullet.

The sum of vector forces that the bullet sees is sum of the wind blowing in its face and plus the cross wind vector. The bullet will orient itself pointing directly into this vector and therefore BC is the determining factor in how fast the speed will degrade and how much drift we will see.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Okay. Then if building a 260. What length of barrel and why? I know the 308 doesnt matter that much on length. How about the 260 velocity? Would a longer barrel in the 260 produce more speed. Would also help with barrel life. Most of the 260s shoot really good around the 2800fps. The 308 doesnt not burn as much powder down the barrel.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

i have found the 139 lapua bc to be more like .590 FWIW. R Emmons has 3000+ in his .260 and still bug holes!
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

2900fps is awesome. I have a 24" barrel getting 2800. I can push it to 2900 but alot of pressre signs. Thought the barrel life would be less.
Now if you push the 155s in a 308 to 2900 to 3000 would that not do shorten the barrel life the same.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

My 1000yd match loaduses H4350 to drive a 142SMK at about 2850fps in my 28" 1:8" L-W stainless barrel. The barrel will go considerably faster, but I elect to chasten the load for bore life considerations

A HDY 95gr V-Max is already going fast enough using the 47.0gr H4350 Hodgdon min published load; I'm guessing somewhere around 3200fps conservatively. At the 49.7gr max, I'd guess it'd go somewhere about 3350-3400fps, and although I trust the V-Max to hold together, I've yet to try anything hotter than the min. That's already running 288,000 RPM, as opposed to 256,000 or so for the 142, and 306,000 at 3400fps.

A 308 at 2650 in a 1:10" twist is doing 190,000 RPM.

I don't go those places unless I must.

Greg
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

Do you chrono your loads. Alot of people use the H4350 but how is the SDs over a chrono?
I use H4831 and the SDs are 7.6 shooting 20 shots over the chrono.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ill have to research this i wanna know which punches thru a un helmet at the farthest distance.</div></div>


marduk...you are not too fucking smart ...are you
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

I stopped chrono'ing after my Chrony got caught in a Sun shower. The numbers after that just seemed way too optimistic. My buddy's absorbed a gas check, and that was the end of that game.

I have a by guess/by gosh set of estimates for dope at various yardages which is good enough to get me on paper with a spotter's help, and after that, velocities take a back seat to actual POI's on the paper.

ES/SD's have never really corresponded to anything on the paper for me besides overall gross drop, and my competitive and load development shooting seems to have fared quite well enough without such complexities.

It's all too easy to get one's head wrapped up in numbers and calculations; but believe me, folks were getting rounds on target very nicely long before the days of individually owned ballistics labs and spreadsheets. The stuff that works has changed very little over the past century, and a lot of the newer bells and whistles have yet to prove their absolute indispensibility to old Neanderthals like myself.

Play with numbers if it makes you happy, and if it improves your shooting, more power to ya; but put your faith in eyeballs, wetware, and good ammo, too. When the batteries fail and the computer's power source goes out, they won't be abandoning you.

Greg
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

LOL. Once I have a load worked up and my field data in place. I no longer use the chrono . The power source thing is another topic in itself. I have elctroinic powders and manual on all reloading stuff.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL. Once I have a load worked up and my field data in place. I no longer use the chrono . The power source thing is another topic in itself. I have elctroinic powders and manual on all reloading stuff.
</div></div>

I find the chronograph indispensable for LR. Adding up match fees, ammo expense, gasoline, etc., it's just too costly to participate in an LR event without prepping for it, unless, of course, winning is not important.

The chronograph confirms the suitability of the load for LR; and, it helps me zero the Gun for 1000 yards from a base 100 yard zero.

Most important, understanding the load from chronographing it, allows for trouble shooting focus on more likely inconsistencies.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

I always check my loads wit a chrono. Mainly to get numbers for trajectory. Just so I will be close at longe range, and tweak from there. Studing es and sd is great. I just have had terrible experience with an accurate reading on my chrono. So if I think the chrono is lying and the bullet shoot good at LR I stick with it. The bullets impacts will tell alot more than a Chinese or equivelent chrono.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

It depends on what your goals are. I starting shooting a few matches just for something to do. If I win great but if I dont oh well. I think any shooting experience at LR is a good thing. If I had to drive 20 hrs to get there that would be another story. I only have to drive 1 hr to one and 2hrs to another.

I use a CED and I'am very pleased with it. I hook it to my laptop. This gives me a good basis for my loads with a 100 shot group. There is differences in loads and how they perform in long distances. The beauty of handloading is you can tune your load for your gun.
In my 260 one tenth of a gr makes a difference between 7.4 to 9.6 SDs. That equates to a better group or a more accurate load. The 260 has great potenial if tweak with.
If you don't do your homework in the feild and home. What would be the difference in buying factory ammo and expecting your group size to be under 1 MOA. Then have a flyer every now and then. Is it the gun or You? It takes some of the thought process out.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

How would a 190gr out of a 300WM compare to a 139gr out of a 260?
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emilio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How would a 190gr out of a 300WM compare to a 139gr out of a 260? </div></div>

Comparably. 'Cept one burns more powder and beats you up more...and uses a long action.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

260 1000yds
2809fps 1578fps 768 energy 27.8 MOA 6.1 Drift


300 WM 1000yds
2900fps 1507fps 923energy 28.1 Moa 7 Drift


I don't really know how fast the 300WM shoots. So I plugged in these numbers for a comparison to go by.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emilio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How would a 190gr out of a 300WM compare to a 139gr out of a 260? </div></div>

Emilio,

I am 27-27.5 MOA to 1K with 6.26 MOA of 10 mph wind drift for my 260 with the 140 VLD (@ 2826 fps).
With the 300WM, I was 25.5 MOA to 1K with 6.9 MOA of wind drift for my 300WM with the 190 SMK (@ 3055 fps). If you ran the 210 or 208 bullet, you would have less wind drift and more elevation needed.

My 260 is more accurate, and does it with much less recoil and muzzle blast. IMO, it is hard to top the 260 caliber for a tactical round. There are flatter rounds, but they require more powder and heat the barrel up a lot more.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

190 is easily sent out at 3000fps if not closer to 3100fps from the 300WM. Also punch in the 208 AMAX with it's .647 BC at 2950fps. That is the round to shoot out of the 300WM. Not the 190.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
With the 300WM, I was 25.5 MOA to 1K with 6.9 MOA of wind drift for my 300WM with the 190 SMK (@ 3055 fps). If you ran the 210 or 208 bullet, you would have less wind drift and more elevation needed.

</div></div>

208 AMAX at 2950fps takes 25 MOA to 1000 with 6 MOA of windage for full value 10mph.
 
Re: .260 round and competition.

My 300 doesn't like the 208 and shoots great groups with the 190 at about 3150 fps. With the numbers being as close as they are I think I will be shooting my 260 a lot more. Thanks.
 
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