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Rifle Scopes 2K optic... Razor or?

D

Dirtdigger

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 9, 2011
92
1
39
South Dakota
I've read until my eyes went cross eyed and this is where i'm at:

First off rifle: basic 308 rem 700 nothing special but my first precision rifle. it will be getting the barrel, action truing, stock...etc soon. TBAC 30p-1 in about 5 months.
grin.gif


Will be used mostly for recreational steel shooting, some hunting, and hopefully my first precision rifle class this summer some time.

So i need my first "high end" glass.

Is there anything better for 2k than a Vortex Razor?
Good glass, good turrets, decent mag range, huge travel, awesome warranty, and bomb proof...i'm hard on shit.

Mil/mil and ffp are a must.

I really don't want to spend 3 grand or more on a Bender or Premier before i really know how to use it, maybe on my next real custom.

Other optics i've looked into but haven't seen enough material on to sway me towards them are...

IOR 6x24x56 35mm mil/mil ffp
mag range is on the high side for low mag and the total elevation travel makes me nervous on a 308 that eventually i'd like to take to a grand or better. other than those two cons i see all pro's but iduno bout it?

March f 3x24x42 30mm mil/mil ffp
great review on the optics section here on the hide. its light weight and compact (hunting), good glass, nice mag range. But again nothing other than one review but it looks like the best contender.

Nightforce F1
For some reason i'm just not hell bent on a NF like some people. buddy has a reg nsx and i just don't see what the fuss is about other than he could use it as a blunt force object if shit gets deep. Plus i'm sort of a mag whore and 15 just doesn't do it for me.

Used USO of some sort
damn good scope but it hard to find one that i like in my price range.

So after reading all that crap are you going to tell me that i just talked myself into a Razor or is there something i'm missing?

P.S. if someone wants to donate a bender or premier to a kid that can't afford one i'd be glad to help ya with that
wink.gif


Thanks for the help and comments.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Night force for the simple fact that you will still be shooting it while all the other will be back at the manufacturer for repair or replacement
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Used 3-15 premiers go for about 2k on the exchange. That's where I got mine.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

My razor has been solid even tho it hasn't been treated well. $2000 is a bit much for one tho. You should be able to pick one up for around $1600-$1700. Nightforce as mentioned is also a bad ass scope, the f1 with the mlr2 is a nice scope. I'm not a fan of there other reticals, this is where vortex shines in my oppinion.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Something you're missing: SWFA SS 5-20x50. Under budget, great people backing their product, excellent eye box, mil/mil with ~27 mils of travel, tough, clear glass and tracks to perfection. If you do have a problem with it, they'll make it right.

If you got that route I definitely recommend getting the throw lever for the magnification adjustment though, it's tight and a bitch when the hands are cold and wet.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

+1 on the 5-20 SWFA, you can find them NIB here in the optics for sale saction for around 1200. Great glass, great company.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

First off, you don't need to spend $2K to get a good scope. There are PLENTY of mechanically sound scopes with good glass for less than $1K. The rifle scope market is very competitive and you simply don't need to spend that kind of money to get a great scope. The choices do narrow when you specify FFP and mil/mil.

Second, if you are just starting off, and of "normal" financial means, then I definitely would not be spending $2K on a scope. Wait until you have been shooting actively for a year or two before spending so much money on a scope. Expensive scopes do not impress: good shooting does. Good shooting with a "run-of-the-mill" scope pisses off all the guys with the expensive bling: be THAT guy.
smile.gif


Third, I"d be trying to keep the weight below 20ounces depending on exactly how you hunt. That will definitely narrow the FFP/mil/mil choices.
smile.gif


Below $1K, you have a few choices in FFP, mil/mil:

Weaver Tactical. I have Nightforce, Leupold, Nikon, and Weaver scopes and can say Weaver is an under-recognized brand. My Weaver target scopes(T-series) have been rock solid and precise. I"ve heard good things about their tactical line and you have a couple of choices in the mag range you specified:

Weaver 3-15x50 FFP, mil/mil: $680
Weaver 4-20x50 FFP, mil/mil: $800

Sightron has some great mil/mil scopes for less than $1K but all are SFP I believe.

Now, if your money is burning a hole in your pocket and you just have to spend more than $1K, I'd look at Leupold, Nightforce, SWFA SS, and/or IOR. Leupold, in particular, has plenty of choices and they tend to be the lightest scopes with the features you want and a lifetime warranty. You might need to make a Leupold custom shop order to get exactly what you want. In SFP, the Leupold VX-R Patrols are a steal: mil/mil with illumination $600-$700.

For what it's worth, I think illumination is a more valuable feature than FFP. You'll have a much wider range of scopes that provide mil/mil, illumination, SFP

SWFA.com has most all the scopes you'd be interested in.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Adding on to scooter's post, if you look at the weaver tactical, make sure you look at the 3-15 EMDR version, its the only one in the tactical line so far that has matching turrets and something other than a run of the mill mildot.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Did anyone forget about the Viper PST 6-24x50 MRAD ? I have 2 PST's on the way.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

If you wanna go budget. Weaver, PST, or SS.

If you wanna go ahead and get a higher grade of scope Night force or Razor.

I love Nightforce they are tough as nails but when I when went to FFP I went with the Razor HD because I like a couple of the features of the Razor better.

20x vs 15x on the F1.

IMHO Vortex offers a little better reticles with the EBR-2b and EBR-3 reticles. F1 has the MLR2 that is a nicely laid out reticle.

Razor reticle has an open center where the cross hairs come together. Nice feature when dealing with very fine targets. Like small dots at 100yds.

Razor has no floating zero.

IMHO NF has the better zero stop setup.

NF has a known history for durability and I would give it a slight edge in that department. As where the Razor's have had a little issues with going back for repairs.

If NF would introduce a 5.5-22 or 5.5-25 FFP they would have a winner on their hands and I would actually consider selling my 2 Razor HD's for the NF configured in that manner.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FORECON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nightforce all the way.</div></div>


+1
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FORECON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nightforce all the way.</div></div>


+1</div></div>

With the right options, NF retains 90-95% resale value. (In case you don't like it)
grin.gif
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

I would go with the Nightforce 5.5-22. First focal plane is overated. Reticles are thicker in FFP scopes so that the reticle is visible at lower power. The SFP reticle in the Nightforce allows you to get away with less magnification and have a finer aiming point. Most of the time the scope is on max power anyway for ranging.

Another option would be the used Premier. Premier glass is as good as S&B.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the Nightforce 5.5-22. <span style="font-weight: bold">First focal plane is </span>. Reticles are thicker in FFP scopes so that the reticle is visible at lower power. The SFP reticle in the Nightforce allows you to get away with less magnification and have a finer aiming point. Most of the time the scope is on max power anyway for ranging.

Another option would be the used Premier. Premier glass is as good as S&B.</div></div>

Agreed and I say to hell with ranging with the reticle. Get yourself a decent range finder and take the math out of the equation. It's quicker and simpler.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Well i do agree with you guys about the weaver emdr and if i wanted a budget scope that would be what i would get no doubt.

The bushy just seems to have too many so so reviews and chromatic this and yellowish that for me to mess with.

I probably don't NEED ffp, but it seems to be the way everyone is going so for resale purposes and the fact that i can use hold overs at any mag range when hunting or the possible tac match in the future it seems to just make sense. Maybe i'm bass akwards with my thinking...who knows.

If and/or when NF makes a ffp scope with 20+ mag range i'll be all over it, but they don't. Never looked through a F1 and prob never will unless i buy one, no one i know has one. i know alot of people use them way past a grand but i don't know if i can.

Used optics don't bother me at all and thats the way it seems i might go. This isn't something i'm in a huge hurry about, just trying to cover all the bases.

And the 2k thing, this is no set in stone number. I just don't see the point in going to the next level yet ( bender, USO, premier, henny) in the 3k+ department. 2k ish and down seems to cover most everything else.

I knew when i made this little rant/post i would get people all over the board and that is what makes this site great, alot of smart people with good opinions and valid points that worked for them and might work for me too.

Keep em coming so i have some more stuff to make the pea soup a little thicker.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Get a scope with a zero stop. All you need to do is ONE TIME get messed up on how many turns up you are and you will see why.

It's really a safety feature too. Here is what happens without a zero stop. You are out shooting at 1000 yards so you are past one turn. You put the gun away. Pick it up next time, days later, and turn it back to what you think is zero but is really one turn up. Shoot at 100 yards. Pow, you over your BUNKER! into the wild blue yonder hitting who knows what!
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirtdigger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This isn't something i'm in a huge hurry about, just trying to cover all the bases.
[...]
And the 2k thing, this is no set in stone number. I just don't see the point in going to the next level yet ( bender, USO, premier, henny) in the 3k+ department. 2k ish and down seems to cover most everything else.</div></div>

If you're in no hurry & keep close tabs on classified, you will find a USO TPAL 3.2-17, PR 3-15 (Tac or Light Tac) at the 2K price point. Last PR 3-15 I picked up was $2K shipped and included BO USMC rings and ARD.

To prevent any arguments, PR and USO aren't exactly better than NF F1, they are different and the ergonomics & features fit *me* better.

Maybe try to network with a few Hide members in SoDak? I just helped my roommate buy a GAP and when it came time for optics, he was able to play with my S&B, PRs and USOs -- turns out he is perfectly happy with Leupold & saved a bunch of $$$ cause he had to opportunity to play with my optics. Not everyone is a glasslut.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Just wait for a used Premier. They have been selling for ridiculously low prices here recently. I would take that over any of the options you've listed.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

I have been using the Weaver Tactical scopes for about a year in steel matches. The only one that is mil/mil is the 3x15x50 EMDR. On my 22lr I have the mildot 3x15x50 which has MOA turrents. The glass on both is excellent for the price and they track flawlessly. I did have a 5x20x50 and sent it back. The glass didn't seem to be as good as the others. The only complaint I have with the Weaver EDMR is it has no 1/2 mil mark. It seems to me that a 1/2 mil hold is very common follow up after a missed first shot.

Don't let anybody fool you FFP is the only way to go. If you have anybody that tells you different ask them how many times they miscalculated a shot due to their reticle not measuring a true mil.It <span style="text-decoration: underline">will</span> happen. That is just as important as your turrents matching your reticle which ever you choose mil/mil or moa/moa.

Nightforce are excellent scopes but are limited to 15x for their FFP series and those are priced up with the USOs. One of our shooters uses a SS 5x20x50. The glass on it is impressive.

My next scope is going to be either a Vortex or USO T-Pal.I am leaning towards the Vortex because of the reticle choices. I'm trying to hold out because the skinny is that Vortex is coming out with some new reticle options this year. If I were to purchase one today it would be the EBR2b or EBR3. You should be able to find a 3.8x17x44 USO T-Pal priced just slightly above 2K. We have shooters that use both and they are excellent choices for a mid to upper priced scope.

 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

love my NF, but my second choice in a lesser price range is viper PST.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chaser_2332</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My razor has been solid even tho it hasn't been treated well. $2000 is a bit much for one tho. You should be able to pick one up for around $1600-$1700. Nightforce as mentioned is also a bad ass scope, the f1 with the mlr2 is a nice scope. I'm not a fan of there other reticals, this is where vortex shines in my oppinion. </div></div>

Are you saying used for 1600-1700? If new, where can I find that price?
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the Nightforce 5.5-22. <span style="font-weight: bold">First focal plane is </span>. Reticles are thicker in FFP scopes so that the reticle is visible at lower power. The SFP reticle in the Nightforce allows you to get away with less magnification and have a finer aiming point. Most of the time the scope is on max power anyway for ranging.

Another option would be the used Premier. Premier glass is as good as S&B.</div></div>


Agreed and I say to hell with ranging with the reticle. Get yourself a decent range finder and take the math out of the equation. It's quicker and simpler. </div></div>

FFP isn't just about ranging with the reticle. How about being able to adjust for a miss thats .5 mil using your reticle at any power. What about being able to hold for elevation and windage at any power. Obviously you have never really used or understood an FFP scope. Ranging is just one benefit probably the least beneficial IMO.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Huge fan on my razor. Really like the IOR as well. I use the razor B2 reticle for my SAC built 260 and love it. I feel you can't go wrong with the razor at just under 2k
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: springer01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the Nightforce 5.5-22. <span style="font-weight: bold">First focal plane is </span>. Reticles are thicker in FFP scopes so that the reticle is visible at lower power. The SFP reticle in the Nightforce allows you to get away with less magnification and have a finer aiming point. Most of the time the scope is on max power anyway for ranging.

Another option would be the used Premier. Premier glass is as good as S&B.</div></div>


Agreed and I say to hell with ranging with the reticle. Get yourself a decent range finder and take the math out of the equation. It's quicker and simpler. </div></div>

FFP isn't just about ranging with the reticle. How about being able to adjust for a miss thats .5 mil using your reticle at any power. What about being able to hold for elevation and windage at any power. Obviously you have never really used or understood an FFP scope. Ranging is just one benefit probably the least beneficial IMO. </div></div>

A.) I do not use my reticle for ranging.
B.) I do not shoot competitions.
C.) I do not care for the thicker FFP reticle.
D.) If I need to hold over for elevation or wind, I have no problem with doing it on max power with a SFP reticle.

It really has to do with personal preference and for me, the FFP would be wasted money. To me, FFP is one of the latest things that few people have the need for, unless they're LEO/MIL or comp shooters, but they're willing to shell out the cash for if only to be in the FFP circle.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

I have had experience with Ior, Nightforce and March. I still own the nf and the march. The F1 and the March FFP have been great so far. Their traking has been spot on between them. The glass quality has to go to the March. The ruggedness goes to the Nightforce. The March wins on size and weight. The Nightforce wins on eyebox size at max magnification, I must also qualify that @ 15x the march isn't much tighter than the NF. While these scopes are both great choices in your price range there are others available. These are the ones that I have experience with. If you have any other questions concerning these give me a shout.
For the ffp issue, yes I can see coolaide issue about it. I am not a mil/leo. When I took a pr course it was very handy to have. I use these scopes to shoot f-class. When the mirage starts to show up dialing the scope back and still hold the same wind holds without math eliminates possible mistakes for me.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuleHunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the Nightforce 5.5-22. <span style="font-weight: bold">First focal plane is </span>. Reticles are thicker in FFP scopes so that the reticle is visible at lower power. The SFP reticle in the Nightforce allows you to get away with less magnification and have a finer aiming point. Most of the time the scope is on max power anyway for ranging.

Another option would be the used Premier. Premier glass is as good as S&B.</div></div>

Agreed and I say to hell with ranging with the reticle. Get yourself a decent range finder and take the math out of the equation. It's quicker and simpler. </div></div>

It's not about ranging it's about wind calls ,holdovers and movers at all magnification levels.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Every scope you listed is awesome. You cant go wrong with any of them. Ive been trying to pick a scope myself lately for my LMT 308 and its extremely hard when your spending this kind of money. Im leaning more towards the NightForce F1 MLR2. I would like a bit more magnification but I dont want to lose my low end. I would love to get a Schmidt and Bender 3-20 but cant spend 3500 on a scope I never looked through.

So I would try to narrow your list down to 2 or 3 and pull from a hat. Let fate decide for you lol.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

I really like the Razor, Nightforce F1 and IOR 3-18 scopes. As far as USO goes I know they are popular here but for the price I don't like them (except the 10X it is a great value). If you want to spend sub 1k the Bushnell 3-12 has worked great for me lots of happy weaver and vortex PST owners out there too.

Don't like the stock change it (Bell Carlson has a couple good offerings for 2-300$) if you don't like the trigger get a trigger job or a drop in but don't mess with the barrel or action IMO. Every heavy barrel rem700 I've shot has been 3/4" or better with match ammo and that is all you need for what you are talking about. Will certainly be more accurate than you are. Keep it simple with your rifle + handloads and shoot shoot shoot. After you've done that for awhile start thinking about new barrels, actions, etc etc etc........
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Well now for the million dollar question.

What vendors on the hide have Razors in stock? The local sporting goods place finally started to carry vortex but has no clue if/when they will get a Razor much less with the ret i want (ebr3).
They did quote me 2,000 as the price but i think i can do better than that online. Although they did say they would price match, but i'm not going to use someone as a pissing post to chop them on price.
Can anyone point me in the direction, or maybe someone that posted is selling them...might have to reread this and send some pm's.

thanks guys

by all means keep the comments coming, seems to be a decent post with no flaming idiots yet.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

If you go with Vortex? They will never question you as to what happened? they will just replace it! That simple!!
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunderstorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FORECON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nightforce all the way.</div></div>


+1</div></div>

With the right options, NF retains 90-95% resale value. (In case you don't like it)
grin.gif
</div></div>

Which options would those be??
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

traded by Razor for a Nightforce. I was not impressed with the Razor for the price. I think Vortex is off to a good start but it still has some kinks in the armor to be worked out. I have an F1 in MOA/MOA and love it.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

for $2k you could buy a Bushnell HDMR and have LOTS of money left over for ammo. I sure did like the HDMR that I got to play with. One day I'll own one for myself.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chaser_2332</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My razor has been solid even tho it hasn't been treated well. $2000 is a bit much for one tho. You should be able to pick one up for around $1600-$1700. Nightforce as mentioned is also a bad ass scope, the f1 with the mlr2 is a nice scope. I'm not a fan of there other reticals, this is where vortex shines in my oppinion. </div></div>

Are you saying used for 1600-1700? If new, where can I find that price?</div></div>

that is the used price...
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirtdigger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well now for the million dollar question.

What vendors on the hide have Razors in stock? The local sporting goods place finally started to carry vortex but has no clue if/when they will get a Razor much less with the ret i want (ebr3).
They did quote me 2,000 as the price but i think i can do better than that online. Although they did say they would price match, but i'm not going to use someone as a pissing post to chop them on price.
Can anyone point me in the direction, or maybe someone that posted is selling them...might have to reread this and send some pm's.

thanks guys

by all means keep the comments coming, seems to be a decent post with no flaming idiots yet.
</div></div>

the MSRP on the razor is 2500$, the MAP is 2000$, you wont find them lower, unless it is used, or you get a LE/MIL discount...

u can get the LE/MIL discount right from vortex direct, i wont say what it is, but its quite a bit...
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

Keep your eyes open in the 'Hide classifieds for new/used Razors.

I am looking to buy a couple more, I have really enjoyed the two that I already own.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

pulled the trigger on a used Premier 5x25 in the for sale section...razer 2k, premier 2.8k.. not a very hard choice. most expensive scope before this was a 500$ vortex viper
laugh.gif
. i think i might notice a difference
grin.gif
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirtdigger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pulled the trigger on a used Premier 5x25 in the for sale section... i think i might notice a difference
grin.gif
</div></div>

You'll love it.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirtdigger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pulled the trigger on a used Premier 5x25 in the for sale section...razer 2k, premier 2.8k.. not a very hard choice. most expensive scope before this was a 500$ vortex viper
laugh.gif
. i think i might notice a difference
grin.gif
</div></div>

if u shoot LONG, the razor has way more adjustment..
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

I LOVE my razor. I looked through a much of other high end scopes and I'm glad I own the one I do.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dirtdigger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pulled the trigger on a used Premier 5x25 in the for sale section...razer 2k, premier 2.8k.. not a very hard choice.</div></div>
Well, for me it was a hard choice, considering all the features and qualities of each scope. In the end, I decided that Razor's reticles are more important to me than Premier's turrets, and that I can live with Razor's turrets and zero-stop. So I got Razor. $800 difference also helped reinforcing my decision, and so did Vortex's stellar service.
 
Re: 2K optic... Razor or?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a_bishop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Night force for the simple fact that you will still be shooting it while all the other will be back at the manufacturer for repair or replacement </div></div>

My experience seems to back up this posters results as well.
 
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