300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

[Lochem158]

Ok guys here are the questions, I just read the article in Sniper magazine about the 300 Norma by Todd Hodnett. In the article he talks about a test he did on barrel lengths with a 338 LM where he tested barrels 18" to 27" and since then he states "I have always shot 20-inch on all my bolt guns". Is this because the velocity loss is nominal or some other reason?

Also in the article I have a second question about barrel twist rate. He talks about faster twist rates for long VLD bullets, Heavy VLD bullets, and shorter barrels. He states "we need much faster twist rates for extended long range shots". In the article 1:8 twist was ordered for the 300 Norma on a 26 " barrel and he talks about 1:7.8 twist for a 308 he had .... What do you guys think?

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Question 1) I can't imagine in what scenario it would make sense to run a 338 on a 20inch barrel but would also love to hear from anyone doing so

Question 2) it makes Sense to go to a faster twist when shortening barrels in many cases but 1:78 twist on a 308 seems overkill and not sure what the advantage would be over building a 308 in a 1:11 or 1:10 twist? And if there was this great advantage why doesn't the likes of GAP and the other great builders on this site recommend such aggressive twists? Or such sort barrel lengths on the 338s?

Not saying you can't spin the hell out of a 308 and run a really short barrel on a 338 but from my experience I don't see the advantage or sense in either and the information you provided above is vague making it tough to form an opinion but it coming from a good source just based onThe info you provide I don't understand why you would do either

 

[RustyShackleferd]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

I read the same article, He answers the questions you are asking in the article.

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

I use very short barrels in long-range rigs. Why?
Because I use them in specialty pistols.
There is no need to go to a faster twist when using "short" barrels. I may go .5 faster twist, not no faster than that.
I do have the 338L Improved (338 Allen Xpress) in a center-grip XP-100 (18" tube 1-10 twist).
15" 6.5-284 1-8 twist.
17" 7mm Rem Mag AI using 180 grain JLK's 1-9 twist
18" 7mm SAUM 162 A-Max 1-9T

338AX

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

XP,

That is awesome! What kind of ballistics do you get out of the pistols?

and where can I get one of those!

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Kirby Allen (APS) built the 338AX.
My accuracy load with the 300 SMK is 2630 fps.
250 grain Scenar @ 2935 fps.
My other Specialty Pistols use the Rem. XP-100 or the MOA Maximum handgun.
I have a number of them: 6x47 Lapua, 243 Win, 6mm-284, 6.5x47L, 6.5-284, 6.5 Keen (SAUM), 6.5WSM (Leopard), 284 Win. 7mm SAUM, 7mm WSM, 7mm Rem Mag AI, 7mm Dakota, and the 388AX

 

[Cactus Kid]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

I remember Todd Talking about this in the magpul vid.

He believes that the more maneuverable shorter barrel allows him to run a heavier contour barrel for the same weight. The benefits of maneverability out weigh the benefits of the volocity gain of a longer barrel.

 

[Lochem158]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

XPhunter that is great info thks!

I know in the article he tells us why he spins them faster but dosnt tell us what the data is on the shorter barrel lenght. velosities vs velosities on a longer barrel....

I am would like to build a 300 Norma and the spec that I would choose would be somthing like a 26"- 27" heavy barrel and 1:10 twist. But if I am understanding the article which I may not be...I could go 20" barrel with a 1:8 twist with a nominal loss in velositie or acuracy. I was hoping to get some data on what I would be loosing by going to the shorter barrel and faster twist.....

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Chamber/barrel length/twist rate/MV
6.5-284 15" 1-8T 130 gr Berger MV=2712
6.5-284 17" 1-8T 140 grain A-Max MV-2725
6.5-284 18" 1-8T 140 grain A-Max MV=2740
6.5 WSM 18" 1-8T 130 gr Berger MV=3030
6.5 WSM 18" 1-8T 130 gr Berger MV=3115
7mm WSM 18" 1-9T 180 gr. JLK MV=2516
7mm SAUM 18" 1-9T 162 gr. A-Max MV=2759
7mm Rem Mag AI 17" 1-9T 180 JLK MV=2580
7mm Dakota 18" 1-7T 200gr. Wildcat MV=2705

 

[kraigWY]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

XP, are you the guy who runs those long range pistol matches up at Sudance???

Been meaning to check those matches out.

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

;<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lochem158</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XPhunter that is great info thks!

I know in the article he tells us why he spins them faster but dosnt tell us what the data is on the shorter barrel lenght. velosities vs velosities on a longer barrel....

I am would like to build a 300 Norma and the spec that I would choose would be somthing like a 26"- 27" heavy barrel and 1:10 twist. But if I am understanding the article which I may not be...I could go 20" barrel with a 1:8 twist with a nominal loss in velositie or acuracy. I was hoping to get some data on what I would be loosing by going to the shorter barrel and faster twist..... </div></div>

In theory going with the 1:8 twist would help stabilize your heavier bullets in a shorter barrel...Unless I am missing something here by spinning the bullet faster does not equal much(if any) in velocity...you are talking about a round that holds over 80 plus grains of powder so if you choose 20 inch barrel over a 26 inch barrel you are going to lose a good bit of velocity potentail...but will that velocity loss hurt you probably not but my questions has always been why would you want to put a crutch on such a capable round. there is no question you will be limiting the capabilities of this round a good bit by cutting the barrel that short...it will still be a great round, but you will have a 300Norma with 300 Win mag ballistics whats the point of spending the extra money on brass and powder? just go with a win mag.

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Kraig,
I help with the match every year, but it is not my match. I am on the Shooter's Committee, and a friend of Rich Mertz, who owns MOA Corp.
Besides the bench match we put on a field shoot as well. Shooting from field positions from about 250 yards to 800 yards with specialty pistols.
MOA website: http://www.moaguns.com/
Site for the Match: http://www.moaguns.com/coldturkey.html
What part of the state do you live in?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">XP, are you the guy who runs those long range pistol matches up at Sudance???

Been meaning to check those matches out. </div></div>

 

[kraigWY]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What part of the state do you live in?</div></div>

Just down the road, Newcastle.

 

[skog]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

8t for shooting heavy subsonics w/can?
Only a guess.

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

I am in Gillette
Yes, we are close.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What part of the state do you live in?</div></div>

Just down the road, Newcastle.
</div></div>

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

With the SAUM/WSM case capacity on up to the 338 Lapua capacity I plan on losing 250-300 fps when using a 16"-18" barrel in the same chambering and twist. I don't lose accuracy with the short tubes.

 

[95LTZ]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

If Ernie says it, you can take it to the Bank. One of the finest folks I know.
Semper Fi

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xphunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the SAUM/WSM case capacity on up to the 338 Lapua capacity I plan on losing 250-300 fps when using a 16"-18" barrel in the same chambering and twist. I don't lose accuracy with the short tubes. </div></div>

XP,

do you find yourself changing teh powder types as you go shorter? in other words, do you go from a slower burning powder to a fast burning powder? Also, have you found the shorter barrels to be better on barrel life, the same or worse.


Thanks

 

[Lochem158]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Ernie thks for the info.....
25man as usual you are right on the mark...

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

I pretty much use the same powder that a rifle user would use. Of the top powders you would use, I might go one step faster.
I will list an earlier post and give the powder. As you will see it would not be surprising to see them listed for a 24-30 inch tube.
Throat life is throat life in my experience whether it is a 14", 17" or 26" barrel.
I added a couple of other chamberings I have as well.
I didn't list the 6mm-6.5x47L or the 6.5x47L here though, but can if needed.
Chamber/barrel length/twist rate/MV/POWDER
6mm-284 18" 1-8T 115gr. DTAC MV=27230 H-4831sc
6.5-284 15" 1-8T 130 gr Berger MV=2712 H-4350
6.5-284 17" 1-8T 140 grain A-Max MV-2725 H-4350
6.5-284 18" 1-8T 140 grain A-Max MV=2740 Hybrid 100V
6.5 WSM 18" 1-8T 130 gr Berger MV=3030 H-1000
6.5 WSM 18" 1-8T 130 gr Berger MV=3115 H-1000
284 Win. 18" 1-9 162 A-Max/168 Berger or JLK H-4831sc
7mm WSM 18" 1-9T 180 gr. JLK MV=2516 (H-1000 & H-4831sc for the 168)
7mm SAUM 18" 1-9T 162 gr. A-Max MV=2759 H-1000
7mm Rem Mag AI 17" 1-9T 180 JLK MV=2580 H-1000
7mm Dakota 18" 1-7T 200gr. Wildcat MV=2705 (H-1000 & Retumbo)
338AX 18" 1-10T, 250 Scenar (H-1000), 300 SMK & Berger (Retumbo)


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xphunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the SAUM/WSM case capacity on up to the 338 Lapua capacity I plan on losing 250-300 fps when using a 16"-18" barrel in the same chambering and twist. I don't lose accuracy with the short tubes. </div></div>

XP,

do you find yourself changing teh powder types as you go shorter? in other words, do you go from a slower burning powder to a fast burning powder? Also, have you found the shorter barrels to be better on barrel life, the same or worse.


Thanks </div></div>

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

That 6.5 WSM performs extremely well with the short barrel huh?

Was thinking about a 260 but that perked my interest.

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Yes, they do.
The faster barrel is a Krieger (non-designated BAT action), while the other one is a Benchmark (XP-100).
I look for accuracy, not speed. If I get both, well, then that really puts a smile on my face

The Benchmark barrel runs about one grain of powder less than the Krieger does if memory serves me correctly.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That 6.5 WSM performs extremely well with the short barrel huh?

Was thinking about a 260 but that perked my interest. </div></div>

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

I am 100% with you accuracy first but those are great speeds out of a short tube and I assumed that load data was within your perferred accuracy node.

Great stuff...thank you!

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Yes, they do quite well.
My best 1000 yard 5-shot group at a 1K match with a 15" barrel was last year at the match I gave the link to earlier was with a 15" MOA Maximum pistol chambered in 6.5-284 with 130 Berger's - 5.25"
This type of handgun has an external hammer, hence slower lock-time.
I strive for 1/4MOA or better at 100 yards in load development.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 100% with you accuracy first but those are great speeds out of a short tube and I assumed that load data was within your perferred accuracy node.

Great stuff...thank you! </div></div>

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xphunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, they do quite well.
My best 1000 yard 5-shot group at a 1K match with a 15" barrel was last year at the match I gave the link to earlier was with a 15" MOA Maximum pistol chambered in 6.5-284 with 130 Berger's - 5.25"
This type of handgun has an external hammer, hence slower lock-time.
I strive for 1/4MOA or better at 100 yards in load development.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 100% with you accuracy first but those are great speeds out of a short tube and I assumed that load data was within your perferred accuracy node.

Great stuff...thank you! </div></div> </div></div>


5 1/4 inch at 1000K is not too shabby!

Well I would most likely build the 6.5WSM in a bolt gun but a Pistol would be unique! I know you said Kirby built you 338...who built the rest of them?

 

[Early Cuyler]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

What's recoil like on those big boys? Or are you able to regain the weight with the thicker barrel profile as suggested above? It just seems to me that thing would jump all over the place even with the bad-A brake!

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Greg Tannel - Gre-Tan Rifles (6.5-284 and 7.82 Patriot)
Chuck MacIntosh - Mac's Gunworks (6x47L, 6.5x47L, 7mm SAUM, 6.5 Leopard {2 of them}, and 375 Snipe-Tac).
Eric Wallace -Nawakawa Accuracy (7mm WSM and 284 Winchester)
Jim See - Center shot Rifles 6.5-284
Kirby Allen - 7mm Dakota & 338AX
My other SP's are MOA Maximum's.
I don't mind putting up pics but I fee like I am going off-topic on this thread.
Good muzzle brakes are key here as I am using riflescopes on these rigs. Kirby's PK is real good and Holland's Radial Gen 2 is my overall favorite.

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

My boy when he was 15 yrs old had 4 shots at 1K under 3" with one of the five shots making the group like 8 3/4".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xphunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, they do quite well.
My best 1000 yard 5-shot group at a 1K match with a 15" barrel was last year at the match I gave the link to earlier was with a 15" MOA Maximum pistol chambered in 6.5-284 with 130 Berger's - 5.25"
This type of handgun has an external hammer, hence slower lock-time.
I strive for 1/4MOA or better at 100 yards in load development.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 100% with you accuracy first but those are great speeds out of a short tube and I assumed that load data was within your perferred accuracy node.

Great stuff...thank you! </div></div> </div></div>


5 1/4 inch at 1000K is not too shabby!

Well I would most likely build the 6.5WSM in a bolt gun but a Pistol would be unique! I know you said Kirby built you 338...who built the rest of them? </div></div>

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xphunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg Tannel - Gre-Tan Rifles (6.5-284 and 7.82 Patriot)
Chuck MacIntosh - Mac's Gunworks (6x47L, 6.5x47L, 7mm SAUM, 6.5 Leopard {2 of them}, and 375 Snipe-Tac).
Eric Wallace -Nawakawa Accuracy (7mm WSM and 284 Winchester)
Jim See - Center shot Rifles 6.5-284
Kirby Allen - 7mm Dakota & 338AX
My other SP's are MOA Maximum's.
I don't mind putting up pics but I fee like I am going off-topic on this thread.
Good muzzle brakes are key here as I am using riflescopes on these rigs. Kirby's PK is real good and Holland's Radial Gen 2 is my overall favorite. </div></div>



Its cool to post pics...Lochem158 is a buddy and has decided based on the feedback to build a 300 Norma with a 26 inch barrel so we can steal away on this thread

Or if you want PM them to me I am so tempted to now build a long range pistol haha not only a unique piece but man do they look fun to shoot!!!

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

Here ya go:
7mm SAUM XP-100

690 yard shot (just one!) that my son made this past October

1st shot (7WSM / McRee Stock)connection when doing a review of the Burris Eliminator

Same 7mm WSM with Benchrest stock and Prototype MAX Coaxial Rest

Other 6.5 Leopard BAT action (Switch barrel) McRee Chassis

6.5 Leopard XP-100

Rear-Grip XP-100 6.5-284 with BR McMillan stock.

MOA Maximum 6.5x47 Lapua

MOA 7mm Rem Mag AI

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

6mm-6.5x47L MOA

PD right at 1450 yards 7mm Dakota XP-100

6.5-284 MOA

 

[Bluejazz]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

tag for future reference

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

WOW!!! Ernie those are cool as hell!

So in the pistol format which is you favorite caliber? A 7mm pistol has to rank up there I would think.

How much do they weigh?

Thanks for sharing those are some awesome weapons!

 

[25MAN]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

They are like the old Thompson Center Contender pistol on a serious dose of steriods. haha

 

[xphunter]

Re: 300 Norma Article from Sniper magazine

For everything including hunting the 7's are my favorite, with the 6.5 close behind it.
Weight depends on action type, barrel length, contour, etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WOW!!! Ernie those are cool as hell!

So in the pistol format which is you favorite caliber? A 7mm pistol has to rank up there I would think.

How much do they weigh?

Thanks for sharing those are some awesome weapons! </div></div>