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300 Win Mag barrel length, what am I losing at 24"? Did I blow it?

M

Maestro Pistolero

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Sep 25, 2010
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Las Vegas, NV
I attended a 1000 yard match today as an observer, and the guys there were telling me my new Krieger barrel should be at least 26" to avoid losing the benefit of the 300 win mag round.
At least for the foreseeable future, I intend to run 190SMK factory ammo. I just ordered the 5R stainless straight taper that's .93 at the muzzle (if 24").

Will the 24" negate some benefits of this magnum round? Will there be unnecessary and useless muzzle flash and noise? How mush extended range am I giving up with a 24" over a 26" or longer barrel?

I noticed that TacOps uses a 24" Krieger barrel on their 300 Win Mag, as does the military's M91A2 M91A2 | Sniper Rifle | Navy SEALs | Weapons. Is there an accuracy benefit to a 24" over a 26" or longer barrel?

There is probably time to change the specs, but I better call them tomorrow as they already received the action Thursday. This is my first bolt gun with a fair bit of dough (to me) riding on it. Have I made a mistake?

Thanks in advance.
 
I read a few articles that said there is no loss in velocity from 26 to 22in barrel. Having a shorter and thicker barrel is usually better because it will be stiffer and have less flex so its usually more accurate.

Here is one article.
SWAT Article BARREL LENGTH
 
Black Ops what is wrong with the 5r in your opinion? I just picked up a 700 milspec 5r 300win 24in. I haven't shot it yet but I hear great things about it.
 
Maestro Pistolero said:
I attended a 1000 yard match today as an observer, and the guys there were telling me my new Krieger barrel should be at least 26" to avoid losing the benefit of the 300 win mag round.
At least for the foreseeable future, I intend to run 190SMK factory ammo. I just ordered the 5R stainless straight taper that's .93 at the muzzle (if 24").

Will the 24" negate some benefits of this magnum round? Will there be unnecessary and useless muzzle flash and noise? How mush extended range am I giving up with a 24" over a 26" or longer barrel?

I noticed that TacOps uses a 24" Krieger barrel on their 300 Win Mag, as does the military's M91A2 M91A2 | Sniper Rifle | Navy SEALs | Weapons. Is there an accuracy benefit to a 24" over a 26" or longer barrel?

There is probably time to change the specs, but I better call them tomorrow as they already received the action Thursday. This is my first bolt gun with a fair bit of dough (to me) riding on it. Have I made a mistake?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

Is that the standard barrel diameter of the 5R .300 win mag? I have one waiting on me at home that I haven't seen yet, but I didn't know the barrels were that thick.
 
My understanding is that you will give up roughly 56 fps with 2" of barrel. Quickload shows the difference with 64.5 grains of Varget being 2965 fps out of the 24" barrel and 3021 fps out of a 26" barrel.
This same velocity decrease holds true with just about every caliber I have checked.

I do not shoot Magnum calibers so I am not sure that Varget is the right powder for the job, it is just a familiar powder to me and what I worked up really quick using a 168 grain Nosler BTHP CC. just to confirm what I thought I already knew. I agonized over this very decision with my most recent .308 barrel and ultimately went with the 24" barrel because it (my rifle) fits in a Pelican 1750 nicer with a 24" barrel. That is literally what helped me decide since 50 fps was negligible to me in the .308

I cant see 50 fps being a make it or break it factor, but what do I know... I am just a new guy with enough knowledge and tools to keep myself out of trouble.... for the most part.
 
Why do you say that?
Click to expand...

Black Ops what is wrong with the 5r in your opinion? I just picked up a 700 milspec 5r 300win 24in. I haven't shot it yet but I hear great things about it.
Click to expand...



In my professional experience in over 30 years in building platforms the 4 Land and groove barrels are inherently more accurate than the 5R barrels. The 5R’s will clean easier but are just a little less accurate like I stated. I have always guaranteed my rifles to shoot ¼ MOA or better using Fed Match ammo either in the 308 or 300WM period. As far as I am concerned it’s the accumulations of errors that add up when building a rifle and anything and everything in that manner could be a small issue and be a negative one . Is the 5R a bad choice ? No it’s not but it would not be mine as I would go with a 4 or a 6 land and groove first. The 4 would be my go to barrel choice hands down. If you would like to speak about this telephonically feel free to call and I will go into more detail that might shed a better light on this ?

BTW, I stated this because the OP said he was getting a Krieger barrel I believe unless I am wrong I stand to be corrected.

310-275-8797

Mike
Tac Ops
 
You're giving up velocity... The whole point of the magnum round.

You have to make the decision in regards to velocity vs rifle maneuverability.

I defer to tac ops on the rifling.
 
Mike,
Great chatting, very informative.
Regards,
MP


Black Ops said:
In my professional experience in over 30 years in building platforms the 4 Land and groove barrels are inherently more accurate than the 5R barrels. The 5R’s will clean easier but are just a little less accurate like I stated. I have always guaranteed my rifles to shoot ¼ MOA or better using Fed Match ammo either in the 308 or 300WM period. As far as I am concerned it’s the accumulations of errors that add up when building a rifle and anything and everything in that manner could be a small issue and be a negative one . Is the 5R a bad choice ? No it’s not but it would not be mine as I would go with a 4 or a 6 land and groove first. The 4 would be my go to barrel choice hands down. If you would like to speak about this telephonically feel free to call and I will go into more detail that might shed a better light on this ?

BTW, I stated this because the OP said he was getting a Krieger barrel I believe unless I am wrong I stand to be corrected.

310-275-8797

Mike
Tac Ops
Click to expand...
 
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Thanks for the post maestro, I am having an action trued and barreled as part of the group buy. I went the same specs as you, and also like you this is my first build. I spec'd a bartlein m24 5R to finish at 24" when a builder like Mike chimes in I am all ears. I plan on running 190's to 210's through mine. I hope my choices will work as well. Are you planning on running a muzzle break on your rig? Right now I am trying to decide between a badger fte, r&d precision mrad, and a surefire. Any thoughts on these?
 
I think 26 would be better in a 300 WM, 24 will do. I put a 29 inch barrel on my Model 70 300 WM 1000 yard rifle. I shoot it with both irons and scope so I like the extra sight radius.

Also I can (and have) set it back a couple times when the throat starts going south.

1000%20yd%20Rifle.jpg
 
I choose magnums so I can go with shorter barrels! Anything over 26" I feel is unnecessary, I have 2 300 WM with 24" barrels
 
I have a Rem 700 5R with the 24 inch factory barrel. I am getting right at 2785 FPS out of it with 71.7 grains of RE22 behind a 208 AMAX. Shot good there, wasn't beating up the brass. I like the shorter barrel for maneuverability. The 26 inch barrels in my opinion get pretty ungainly by the time you put a brake on them. The 50 FPS loss doesn't bother me at all.
 
It depends if you are hand loading or shooting factory loads, as well as at what distances. You give up velocity in reducing barrel length, but the question is whether handiness of rifle is more important to you or stretching the caliber to it's limits?
 
BigB1216 said:
I read a few articles that said there is no loss in velocity from 26 to 22in barrel. Having a shorter and thicker barrel is usually better because it will be stiffer and have less flex so its usually more accurate.

Here is one article.
SWAT Article BARREL LENGTH
Click to expand...

A 24" barrel may or may not be GTG (26" would be better IMHO) but this makes no sense. If you fired the same round out of a 22" barrel it would not have the same velocity as it would if fired from a 26" barrel.
 
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DT1 said:
A 24" barrel may or may not be GTG (26" would be better IMHO) but this makes no sense. If you fired the same round out of a 22" barrel it would not have the same velocity as it would if fired from a 26" barrel.
Click to expand...

They're speaking specifically of Federal Match 190-grain BTHP Gold Medal; probably a faster burning powder. There is always a point of diminishing returns. With this ammo, that apparently happens at 22".
 
If a 24" .308 can do 1000yd, a .300WM in the same length is gonna haul the mail just fine. Whatever 'advantage' is given up, you can afford to lose it without losing any sleep along with it. One can assume that as s comp rifle, you will be handloading for it, so accuracy should be as good as your load development allows.

After shooting a .30-'06 prone at 1Kyd using 175SMK for 50+ shots F Class, I can tell you that handloading can be a blessing, as it could allow you to download the .300WM for recoil reduction as well as accuracy, which is something that chambering can do with effectively and far more tolerably.

Shooting a 300WM prone for 50+ rounds requires an unhealthy does of masochism, IMHO. Next time you want to improve performance at 1000yd over the .308, go the other way, .260 rather than .300WM.

That's only an opinion, but it's based on shooting the .260 in 1000yd F Class for several years, and watching the .300WM shooters coming off the line bruised and bleeding about the face.

Greg
 
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...n-mag-rifles-short-barrels-lets-see-them.html

Plenty of others have done it successfully. Barrel length can be a misnomer and most folks who say you NEED 26+ were told that by their grandpappy who heard it from Jimbo down the street who heard it from some guy in a gunshop, etc. You will lose some velocity but most shooters won't notice the difference until you're at the ragged edge. I always reference a couple guys I've shot with who run 12 or 13" xp100s in 260, commonly known as a velocity sensitive cartridge, to 1000 over and over and over. He let me have a crack at it and first shot at 990 was good.
 
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<-- 24" tube, lots and lots and lots of hits from 1200 - 2k.

The down side to speaking with folks who participate in one event, where they uncase and unflag their rifle, walk 10', lay down on their prayer rug of choice, and place the rifle in front rest, bag the rear, review wind flags, fire a string, collect their crap, flag and case their rig, walk another 10' and then resume BSing with their buds - is they tend to have a narrow focus on what is 'best'. Doesn't mean they don't have a wealth of knowledge, it does mean you need to filter what is applicable to you.
 
I just came across this old thread, and thought I would update a bit. I've been working with this rifle again lately. It never shot the 190 grain SMKs worth a crap as I had hoped.

But it LOVES 210 gr Berger VLDs over about 75 grains of H1000 seated about .015 off the lands. I'm about to load up several hundred of these.

Attached are a few early targets during load development. My best group ever was five shots into .56 inches at 200 yards (.28 MOA). More typical groups hover around a half MOA, give or take. If it keeps doing that, I guess I'll be a happy dude.
 

Attachments

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DT1 said:
A 24" barrel may or may not be GTG (26" would be better IMHO) but this makes no sense. If you fired the same round out of a 22" barrel it would not have the same velocity as it would if fired from a 26" barrel.
Click to expand...

Depends, it relies on powder burn rate/rate of burn, expenditure of pressure.
 
I am running 73grns of R22 pushing 210grn Berger VLD's really darn fast. I have had no issues with this load using Winchester brass. Nosler brass however does NOT like this load and blows out every primer!
 
I attended a 1000 yard match today as an observer, and the guys there were telling me my new Krieger barrel should be at least 26" to avoid losing the benefit of the 300 win mag round.
At least for the foreseeable future, I intend to run 190SMK factory ammo. I just ordered the 5R stainless straight taper that's .93 at the muzzle (if 24").

Will the 24" negate some benefits of this magnum round? Will there be unnecessary and useless muzzle flash and noise? How mush extended range am I giving up with a 24" over a 26" or longer barrel?

I noticed that TacOps uses a 24" Krieger barrel on their 300 Win Mag, as does the military's M91A2 M91A2 | Sniper Rifle | Navy SEALs | Weapons. Is there an accuracy benefit to a 24" over a 26" or longer barrel?

There is probably time to change the specs, but I better call them tomorrow as they already received the action Thursday. This is my first bolt gun with a fair bit of dough (to me) riding on it. Have I made a mistake?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

In my professional experience in over 30 years in building platforms the 4 Land and groove barrels are inherently more accurate than the 5R barrels. The 5R’s will clean easier but are just a little less accurate like I stated. I have always guaranteed my rifles to shoot ¼ MOA or better using Fed Match ammo either in the 308 or 300WM period. As far as I am concerned it’s the accumulations of errors that add up when building a rifle and anything and everything in that manner could be a small issue and be a negative one . Is the 5R a bad choice ? No it’s not but it would not be mine as I would go with a 4 or a 6 land and groove first. The 4 would be my go to barrel choice hands down. If you would like to speak about this telephonically feel free to call and I will go into more detail that might shed a better light on this ?

BTW, I stated this because the OP said he was getting a Krieger barrel I believe unless I am wrong I stand to be corrected.

310-275-8797

Mike
Tac Ops
Click to expand...

AEROMechanic
He said NO such thing....


Reading comprehension, how does it work?
Click to expand...

Thank you AEROMechanic for chiming in SIR and clarifying this because you are correct I Never SAID SUCH A THING. The OP stated he was getting a New Krieger and I suggested the above ( Read my Post again Turk & Jsthntn247). Both Krieger and Bartlein make probably the best barrels in the Industry and Tac Ops Uses Both. However on the other hand my first choice would be the 4L over the 5R and it would not matter who produced it out of the two names I just mentioned.

Turk & Jsthntn247 Get your facts Straight and I would advise you not to piss in the OP,s Thread...

Mike
Tac Ops
 
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I asked a few military buddies of mine and the magic # for Win Mag was 24 1/4...

I shoot 1200 - 1800 just like [MENTION=12791]Mike_Honcho[/MENTION] with absolutely no issues.

Reloading with H1000, Hornady Brass, CCI Mag primer, 208 Amax

The velocity "loss" in the Win Mag completely depends on what/how you're reloading...I've seen guys take advantage of a 20" Win Mag and guys that take advantage of a 26" win mag...It's all about what you're actually shooting. I think those of you that own a Win-Mag and don't reload are crazy but, to each their own.
 
FYI, those 190 grain Sierra Match Kings (that this rifle doesn't like) clip along at 2995 fps out of this 24".

I was never looking to push this round to anywhere near its limit. I don't need a barn burner. If I wanted more distance than the 300 WinMag would naturally provide I would have gotten a 338 Lapua.

The accuracy load so far for this rifle is doing just 2750 FPS at the muzzle. To me, that's damn fast enough for a 210 grain projectile.
 
Maestro Pistolero said:
FYI, those 190 grain Sierra Match Kings (that this rifle doesn't like) clip along at 2995 fps out of this 24".

I was never looking to push this round to anywhere near its limit. I don't need a barn burner. If I wanted more distance than the 300 WinMag would naturally provide I would have gotten a 338 Lapua.

The accuracy load so far for this rifle is doing just 2750 FPS at the muzzle. To me, that's damn fast enough for a 210 grain projectile.
Click to expand...

The "limits" on the 300wm are definitely about a mile...208's with the right load stays supersonic up to about 1500.

I actually shoot with a guy that takes his 300wm out to a mile a couple times a month just because...We both reload essentially Mk 248 Mod 1's.

I wouldn't say the Mk 248 is a barn burner but, it will definitely light a fire under your ass.

Max effective "soft fleshy" target range per the Mk 248's would be about 1400 IMO...Military says 1500 though.

So you're not going anywhere near it's limit at 1k.

There was a test done last year with Federal 190 gold -- Pretty good stuff: 300 Winchester Magnum: How Does Barrel Length Change Velocity- A 16? 300 Win Mag? | Rifleshooter.com

What about a 26″ 300 Winchester Magnum? I don’t know. Looking back, I wish I had a 26 inch barrel to start with. Published velocities seem to have a 26 inch barrel pushing 190 Gold Medal at 2900 ft/sec, which, doesn’t seem to be much of a gain. However, with some of the newer, slower burning powders, there may be some benefit to the 2 additional inches of barrel length especially with heavier projectiles. The 190 is old hat for the many 300 Winchester Magnum shooters. Heavier projectiles and slow powders offer promising long range potential, filling the gap between the 308 Winchester and 338 Lapua/338 Norma.
Click to expand...

That being said, depending on your load, you might lose @ 50fps...With a 24 compared to a 26...

Considering your requirements, I wouldn't worry about barrel length.
 
Some people have suggested that a slightly shorter barrel may reduce muscle whip, though I can't imagine going from 26" to 24" inches would have a dramatic effect in that regard, especially with a .93" barrel at the muzzle. But who knows what differences there are in barrel harmonics, whip and what not.

I also know I wouldn't want this rifle to be an ounce heavier than it already is, and two inches of this barrel is not an insubstantial amount of weight. ;)
 
Maestro Pistolero said:
FYI, those 190 grain Sierra Match Kings (that this rifle doesn't like) clip along at 2995 fps out of this 24".

.....
Click to expand...


I wonder what the lot to lot consistency is like? LRI built a 28" 300win for a buddy of mine that is sending the 190FGMM out at over 3100'. We thought the chrony was broke, plugged in the data & drilled a 4" bullseye @ 1140yds... Must not be that far off.


t
 
I went 28" on my new .300 win mag. build and had it throated to shoot the heavies, reason being I want to stretch it out to a mile and maybe even 2000 yards. If you intend to shoot that far then you may have slightly handicapped yourself. If you only go out to 1400 to 1600 then probable ok. Really your only giving up a 100-150 FPS probably.
 
Maestro Pistolero said:
That sounds plausible for a 28 inch barrel. I had a couple of 190 SMKs that clocked at just over 3K in my 24" Krieger 5R.
Click to expand...


Good to know, this was my first go-round with the 300FGMM. We were a little surprised when the box said 2900fps & the Chrony read ~3170; that's a pretty big difference.



t
 
T J said:
Good to know, this was my first go-round with the 300FGMM. We were a little surprised when the box said 2900fps & the Chrony read ~3170; that's a pretty big difference.
Click to expand...

Out of a 20" barrel 2900 fps might be about right, using about 25 fps per inch of barrel length.

20" = 2900? (posted on box)
24" = 2995 (average in my stick)
28" = 3100+ (TJ's buddy's stick)

Makes sense to me.
 
Anything shorter than 24" with a .300wm to me is a waste.

A lot of things can effect pressures and velocities. What chamber reamer/spec. was used, bore and groove sizes etc.....

I do know for fact in a standard pressure test barrels if your getting 2800fps or more with a bullet 210gr. and heavier most likely your loads are exceeding normal max. working pressures. You might not see it on the brass or bolt lift etc....but I've seen to much load data on test barrels to know what is and what isn't working.

Normal pressure workings loads the .300wm regardless of bullet weight doesn't stay supersonic past 1400 yards. Again I say normal working pressure loads that the .300wm was designed for. That's not to say you cannot hit stuff accurately pass that distance with it though.

Becareful with your loads!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
My 300winmag had a 26in 1:10 twist Krieger. Shooting the 208 AMAX with 71g or R22 I was getting 2950fps. Two months ago I cut 2in off the barrel to thread it for a Thunderbeast 30P-1 suppressor. Now my barrel is 24inches. Shooting it suppressed with the same powder charge I am getting 2870fps. This is coming form a MagnetoChrono. Shooting sunday at 1200yds I was still only at 9mils in hold over. If you want a 24in barrel then get one. I don't think your are going to short change yourself at all. Just dump a little more powder if you are that worried about it.

Before
IMG_0844_zpse4e23c8e.jpg
[/URL]

After
20140710_093237_zpse41e177f.jpg
[/URL]
 
Thanks, Frank. Good advice, to be sure. It's interesting to me that the round that we are talking about most recently, the FACTORY Federal GMM 190 grain is producing high 2900s in this 24 inch 5R Krieger barrel (I had at least one go over 3000 ft./s.).

Others are getting similar velocities given whatever barrel length. With just 74.2 grains of H 1000, my 210 Berger VLDs are getting 2760fps.. Berger lists 76 grains of H1000 as the max load for the 210s.

At 76.4 grains I had a little bolt stickiness and the slightest amount of primer deformation. I elected not to fire the rest of that lot or any that were loaded even hotter. My chronograph wasn't working that day but I'll bet I was hitting close to 2900 with the 210 vld.

Fortunately, my accuracy load appears to be in the low to mid 74gr/2760fps range, which suits me fine. Like I said, I was never looking for a barn burner, just something more than .308.

Regards


Frank Green said:
Anything shorter than 24" with a .300wm to me is a waste.

A lot of things can effect pressures and velocities. What chamber reamer/spec. was used, bore and groove sizes etc.....

I do know for fact in a standard pressure test barrels if your getting 2800fps or more with a bullet 210gr. and heavier most likely your loads are exceeding normal max. working pressures. You might not see it on the brass or bolt lift etc....but I've seen to much load data on test barrels to know what is and what isn't working.

Normal pressure workings loads the .300wm regardless of bullet weight doesn't stay supersonic past 1400 yards. Again I say normal working pressure loads that the .300wm was designed for. That's not to say you cannot hit stuff accurately pass that distance with it though.

Becareful with your loads!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Click to expand...
 
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IMO, H1000 performs subpar in the 300winmag. Every time I have tried to use it, I get lower MV and worse grouping. Stick with R22 or 4831. I bet you get better MV for sure
 
Jig Stick said:
IMO, H1000 performs subpar in the 300winmag. Every time I have tried to use it, I get lower MV and worse grouping. Stick with R22 or 4831. I bet you get better MV for sure
Click to expand...

I worked up identical loads with 4831sc and the groups went from half MOA to 3/4 MOA. Since I have to shoot in a desert environment where temperatures can range from 10 to 110 degrees, the relative insensitivity to temperature of H1000 is a plus for me.
 
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Maestro Pistolero said:
I worked up identical loads with 4831sc and the groups went from half MOA to 3/4 MOA. Since I have to shoot in a desert environment where temperatures can range from 10 to 110 degrees, the relative insensitivity to temperature of H1000 is a plus for me.
Click to expand...

The powder charge may not be identical between the two powders. H4831SC is an "extreme" powder just like the H1000. Temperature shouldn't affect it much. Some people have good success with it, but I have not. H1000 burns even slower than H4831SC, and if you are cutting the barrel back by a few inches, thats even less tube to burn that powder through. I would use something that burns faster so that you can retain as much MV as you can.
 
Jig Stick said:
The powder charge may not be identical between the two powders. H4831SC is an "extreme" powder just like the H1000. Temperature shouldn't affect it much. Some people have good success with it, but I have not. H1000 burns even slower than H4831SC, and if you are cutting the barrel back by a few inches, thats even less tube to burn that powder through. I would use something that burns faster so that you can retain as much MV as you can.
Click to expand...

I reload with all 3.

Have a 24" 1/4 Bartlein M24.

4831SC/4831 are nice, it's a solid load but, I too get my best performance from basically loading MK248's with H1000. - I use a 208 Amax.

Now obviously I'm not an expert but, in my experience, these stay super until @1500.

I understand what you're saying and with the lighter loads, I do see considerably better performance from 4831.
 
Pointman308 said:
Whatever Black Ops is telling you.....you need to listen.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Pointman308, the ship has long sailed on this build. I certainly take note of Black Ops (and your) recommendations, and when I finally build a short action it probably won't get a 5R barrel. But not because this one was a disappointment . . I'm very happy with it. Rather because I like to broaden my (limited) experience with each new build.

For that same reason, my future SA probably won't be a 700 but instead a custom action of some sort.

And if I am lucky enough to shoot this 300 WM barrel out I'd probably try a 26 or 28" Bartlein next, just because.
 
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