300prc and 215s struggle

[Rh0dz]

I'm struggling to get my 300prc to group with Berger 215s and N570. I've tried powder charges from 78-83.5 all .020 OL. I then found a good velocity node around 2920. Then ran seating debth ladder from .053- .069 as I've read they like to jump around .060. Still wildly inconsistent. Question is, what's next step? I have H1000 I can try or just move to Berger 230s. Would you change powder or bullet first?

I shot a 5 shot group right at 1moa with hornady match 225s to make sure my scope wasn't moving.

Lone peak, carbon proof 26"...

 

[Rh0dz]

ADG brass, .002 neck tension (mandrel .306), Fed 215.

 

[nn8734]

Where did you read that 215 bergers only like .060” jump?

Try H1000. Ive jumped those thing’s anywhere from .030-.080 with good results in 300N w/H1000. Can’t speak to N570, never tried it.

 

[rustyinbend]

I'm struggling to get my 300prc to group with Berger 215s and N570. I've tried powder charges from 78-83.5 all .020 OL. I then found a good velocity node around 2920. Then ran seating debth ladder from .053- .069 as I've read they like to jump around .060. Still wildly inconsistent. Question is, what's next step? I have H1000 I can try or just move to Berger 230s. Would you change powder or bullet first?

I shot a 5 shot group right at 1moa with hornady match 225s to make sure my scope wasn't moving.

Lone peak, carbon proof 26"...

I get awesome 300-PRC results with 77.4 grains of Retumbo shooting Berger 220 LRHT bullets. 2878 ft/sec velocity average, SD's under 6.0, tight groups, and good hits at 1-mile. Don't suppose you have a jug of Retumbo hanging around on the shelf ... eh?

 

[Rh0dz]

I get awesome 300-PRC results with 77.4 grains of Retumbo shooting Berger 220 LRHT bullets. 2878 ft/sec velocity average, SD's under 6.0, tight groups, and good hits at 1-mile. Don't suppose you have a jug of Retumbo hanging around on the shelf ... eh?

As a matter of fact I just scored an unopened 8lb. jug a few weeks ago. I also have 220 LRHTs. How far were you jumping them?

 

[rustyinbend]

As a matter of fact I just scored an unopened 8lb. jug a few weeks ago. I also have 220 LRHTs. How far were you jumping them?

.020 to .025 is my usual jump distance.

 

[rustyinbend]

COAL is 3.71

 

[Rocketmandb]

Notes:

- I've never tried the 215s in my PRC, but have played a little with 220s - use 230s as my go-to. Unfortunately, 230s (the non OTM Tactical variety) are impossible to come by. I'm on my last ~200 and will be switching to the OTMs when out. I don't think that changing the bullet should be your first step - probably your last...

- I jump my 230s at .039. The Berger hybrids are very tolerant of jump changes, but you might want to try playing with seating depth first. I take my arbor press to the range with a bunch of rounds loaded long, then size down as I go, find a promising depth, finally run the rest through to validate (or not). The only hybrids I've run at > .040 are 155 Full Bores for my new 308, and only because of mag length issues. Every other Berger hybrid I've used (200.20, 205, 220, 230, 245, 105, 109) have performed better at lower depths.

- I think N570 is too slow, especially for the 215s. I haven't played with it in my PRC, but have messed around with similar slower speed powders like RL33 and it did not yield good results. H1000 is a better bet, RL 26 better yet (if you can find it). As @rustyinbend said, Retumbo can work, but sometimes it turns into unobtainium like RL26 is now (not just now, actually). H1000 tends to be more available across a longer period of time.

- Carbon barrels can get wonky A couple years ago, a now-friend of mine had a light weight 300 PRC hunting rifle made with a carbon barrel. He couldn't get it to shoot (remotely close to shoot, actually) with factory ammo - like 2-3" groups at 100. I met him because we both used the same smith, and said smith contacted me because of my experience loading for the PRC. Before I could help, my now-friend said he couldn't believe that tuning a load could bring it in that much, and asked the smith to rebarrel with a different manufacturer's barrel. The newly minted barrel/rifle came in and it shot perfectly... badly... again... same result. So, now we went through the exercise of load development, and at least we were able to (with minimal effort) bring the groups down to sub-moa. He subsequently got into reloading, worked more on the load, and is only now happy with the results. Long way of saying he's shooting Berger 205s at .040, ~2930 fps.

Lots of words - TLDR:

- Move to H1000 first. EDIT: was typing when you wrote that you scored some Retumbo - play with that.
- Play with seating depth second
- If you have changed powder, found a good node, and run a full depth test starting at like .015 off and moving up to ~.050, only then think about changing bullets (unless you want to for other reasons). There is no reason the 215s should be a problem.

 

[rustyinbend]

Notes:

- I've never tried the 215s in my PRC, but have played a little with 220s - use 230s as my go-to. Unfortunately, 230s (the non OTM Tactical variety) are impossible to come by. I'm on my last ~200 and will be switching to the OTMs when out. I don't think that changing the bullet should be your first step - probably your last...

- I jump my 230s at .039. The Berger hybrids are very tolerant of jump changes, but you might want to try playing with seating depth first. I take my arbor press to the range with a bunch of rounds loaded long, then size down as I go, find a promising depth, finally run the rest through to validate (or not). The only hybrids I've run at > .040 are 155 Full Bores for my new 308, and only because of mag length issues. Every other Berger hybrid I've used (200.20, 205, 220, 230, 245, 105, 109) have performed better at lower depths.

- I think N570 is too slow, especially for the 215s. I haven't played with it in my PRC, but have messed around with similar slower speed powders like RL33 and it did not yield good results. H1000 is a better bet, RL 26 better yet (if you can find it). As @rustyinbend said, Retumbo can work, but sometimes it turns into unobtainium like RL26 is now (not just now, actually). H1000 tends to be more available across a longer period of time.

- Carbon barrels can get wonky A couple years ago, a now-friend of mine had a light weight 300 PRC hunting rifle made with a carbon barrel. He couldn't get it to shoot (remotely close to shoot, actually) with factory ammo - like 2-3" groups at 100. I met him because we both used the same smith, and said smith contacted me because of my experience loading for the PRC. Before I could help, my now-friend said he couldn't believe that tuning a load could bring it in that much, and asked the smith to rebarrel with a different manufacturer's barrel. The newly minted barrel/rifle came in and it shot perfectly... badly... again... same result. So, now we went through the exercise of load development, and at least we were able to (with minimal effort) bring the groups down to sub-moa. He subsequently got into reloading, worked more on the load, and is only now happy with the results. Long way of saying he's shooting Berger 205s at .040, ~2930 fps.

Lots of words - TLDR:

- Move to H1000 first
- Play with seating depth second
- If you have changed powder, found a good node, and run a full depth test starting at like .015 off and moving up to ~.050, only then think about changing bullets (unless you want to for other reasons). There is no reason the 215s should be a problem.

All good advice. That said, I use H1000 and Berger 230's in my 300-Norma rifle with excellent results. I've had remarkably great luck at finding both Retumbo and H1000 through these "lean years", and over-stocked (AKA: "Hoarded") my preferred Berger bullets when they've popped up with availability. Remember ... it's not "hoarding" if you really really want lots of it.

 

[Rh0dz]

This was my first test. POI all over the place.

 

[Rh0dz]

Test 2

 

[Rh0dz]

Notes:

- I've never tried the 215s in my PRC, but have played a little with 220s - use 230s as my go-to. Unfortunately, 230s (the non OTM Tactical variety) are impossible to come by. I'm on my last ~200 and will be switching to the OTMs when out. I don't think that changing the bullet should be your first step - probably your last...

- I jump my 230s at .039. The Berger hybrids are very tolerant of jump changes, but you might want to try playing with seating depth first. I take my arbor press to the range with a bunch of rounds loaded long, then size down as I go, find a promising depth, finally run the rest through to validate (or not). The only hybrids I've run at > .040 are 155 Full Bores for my new 308, and only because of mag length issues. Every other Berger hybrid I've used (200.20, 205, 220, 230, 245, 105, 109) have performed better at lower depths.

- I think N570 is too slow, especially for the 215s. I haven't played with it in my PRC, but have messed around with similar slower speed powders like RL33 and it did not yield good results. H1000 is a better bet, RL 26 better yet (if you can find it). As @rustyinbend said, Retumbo can work, but sometimes it turns into unobtainium like RL26 is now (not just now, actually). H1000 tends to be more available across a longer period of time.

- Carbon barrels can get wonky A couple years ago, a now-friend of mine had a light weight 300 PRC hunting rifle made with a carbon barrel. He couldn't get it to shoot (remotely close to shoot, actually) with factory ammo - like 2-3" groups at 100. I met him because we both used the same smith, and said smith contacted me because of my experience loading for the PRC. Before I could help, my now-friend said he couldn't believe that tuning a load could bring it in that much, and asked the smith to rebarrel with a different manufacturer's barrel. The newly minted barrel/rifle came in and it shot perfectly... badly... again... same result. So, now we went through the exercise of load development, and at least we were able to (with minimal effort) bring the groups down to sub-moa. He subsequently got into reloading, worked more on the load, and is only now happy with the results. Long way of saying he's shooting Berger 205s at .040, ~2930 fps.

Lots of words - TLDR:

- Move to H1000 first. EDIT: was typing when you wrote that you scored some Retumbo - play with that.
- Play with seating depth second
- If you have changed powder, found a good node, and run a full depth test starting at like .015 off and moving up to ~.050, only then think about changing bullets (unless you want to for other reasons). There is no reason the 215s should be a problem.

This is great info thanks. New to reloading but getting good results with everything but this rifle. Frustrating. I'll change powders and see if they tighten up.

 

[Rocketmandb]

over-stocked (AKA: "Hoarded") my preferred Berger bullets when they've popped up with availability. Remember ... it's not "hoarding" if you really really want lots of it.

I will never, ever, fault anyone for "hoarding" in this discipline. I'm sitting at >120 lbs of various powders, ~15k primers, ~4k of various bullets for my 300 (less for each of my others) - and I'm still short on certain key components (e.g. Berger 230s). If the last few years have taught us anything, it's that "hoarding" is the smart way to go.

As an aside, half of the bullets I've got for my PRC are Berger 220s. Waiting for my current barrel to run out before switching to them. I don't think I'll give up much at all vs the 230s

 

[rustyinbend]

This is great info thanks. New to reloading but getting good results with everything but this rifle. Frustrating. I'll change powders and see if they tighten up.

Can you tell us about "the rifle"? How many rounds through it? Did it used to shoot well but not now? Any chance of carbon build-up or a carbon-ring?

 

[Rocketmandb]

This is great info thanks. New to reloading but getting good results with everything but this rifle. Frustrating. I'll change powders and see if they tighten up.

It will be a combination of powder and seating depth. Everything I've run with Bergers has found a good spot in the .020 - .040 range. It doesn't mean that you won't find one longer, but why waste the effort?

 

[nn8734]

View attachment 8113183View attachment 8113185
Test 2

I see a general impact pattern centered around the 2 oclock to 2-thirty position relative to your POA (assuming its center of the pastie). The grouping patterns themselves can be a combo of non-optimal seating depth and shooter fundamentals execution errors.

Try retumbo first as others suggested as its a bit slower burning than H1k and should yield a bit more MV at slightly lower pressures. Then play with seating depths….020-.080 in .15 or .020 increments is what I usually do at first.

 

[Rh0dz]

Can you tell us about "the rifle"? How many rounds through it? Did it used to shoot well but not now? Any chance of carbon build-up or a carbon-ring?

Less than 200 rounds. I did a very thorough cleaning prior to the range for the tests. It has only ever shot Factory ammo, but shot it well. 3/4"ish groups

 

[Rh0dz]

Test 3

 

[Rh0dz]

I'm gonna switch powders and see what happens. Thanks

 

[nn8734]

I'm gonna switch powders and see what happens. Thanks

Are you shooting the rifle prone with a rear support bag?

Is this your first magnum rifle or first time shooting one in quite a while?

 

[Rh0dz]

Are you shooting the rifle prone with a rear support bag?

Is this your first magnum rifle or first time shooting one in quite a while?

Test 1 prone w/ rear bag. Test 2 & 3 from bench with bipod and rear bag. I am a novice to intermediate shooter. Open to any and all suggestions.

 

[nn8734]

Test 1 prone w/ rear bag. Test 2 & 3 from bench with bipod and rear bag. I am a novice to intermediate shooter. Open to any and all suggestions.

Shoot everything prone and if possible video yourself from the rear and sides. Chances are you will spot things that aren’t obvious while on the gun…Have another experienced magnum shooter with you if you can. Also dry fire, achiving natural point of aim and watch the crosshairs closely as you break the shot. If you see movement off target, diagnose the cause and fix.

Im guessing this is your first magnum but you can confirm/deny.

 

[Rh0dz]

Shoot everything prone and if possible video yourself from the rear and sides. Chances are you will spot things that aren’t obvious while on the gun…Have another experienced magnum shooter with you if you can. Also dry fire, achiving natural point of aim and watch the crosshairs closely as you break the shot. If you see movement off target, diagnose the cause and fix.

Im guessing this is your first magnum but you can confirm/deny.

Thanks. Yes, this is my first magnum.

 

[nn8734]

Thanks. Yes, this is my first magnum.

YW…Focus on recoil mgmt…magnums will expose even the smallest fundimentals execution issues especially recoil mgt is often challenging to new magnum shooters until they get used to it (was for me w/the win mag at first)…im leaning towards that being your problem not so much the ammo you’re making.

Try those above things out and let us know how things go.

 

[Rh0dz]

YW…Focus on recoil mgmt…magnums will expose even the smallest fundimentals execution issues especially recoil mgt is often challenging to new magnum shooters until they get used to it (was for me w/the win mag at first)…im leaning towards that being your problem not so much the ammo you’re making.

Try those above things out and let us know how things go.

I will do this, thank you. I did forget to mention one thing that could potentially be an issue. My bipod (CYKE) was very loose where the rifle can rotate (the direction to level crosshairs). That's the only other variable I can think of.

 

[Raffy]

I don't know. I've heard good things with n570 and 300prc's. I don't recall what bullet or other load factors were involved, but I'd believe the 215 was in some of them. To me that poi shift and spread looks like it could be something wrong with your gun. Have you checked things like your scope isn't malfunctioning, rings are good, stock is floated, bedding is solid, etc...?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Factory ammo is at least semi-grouping, so I would discount the issue being shooter newness vs. magnums, rifle issues, scope issues, etc.

Now...

Shoot both loaded and factory in the same session to further discount these as contributors, but I'd lean away from this at this point.

 

[Rh0dz]

Factory ammo is at least semi-grouping, so I would discount the issue being shooter newness vs. magnums, rifle issues, scope issues, etc.

Now...

Shoot both loaded and factory in the same session to further discount these as contributors, but I'd lean away from this at this point.

I even shot the factory ammo purposely while the barrel was the hottest and it still shot the best.

 

[918v]

Maybe N570 just isn’t accurate in your application?

 

[Rh0dz]

Maybe N570 just isn’t accurate in your application?

This is what I'm starting to believe. the more I've read the last 24 hours, it seems that N570 excels with heavier projectiles and slightly longer barrels. I'm running a 24" carbon proof so I'm gonna adjust powders to H1000 and hope to get better results. I'm very new to reloading so it's good to struggle a bit so I can experiment and hopefully learn a lot from this rifle. A bit frustrating though considering my first test loads for my 6.5cm gas gun are shooting 1/2" with the 130 Bergers and H4350 with less superior brass (SIG).

 

[Rocketmandb]

A bit frustrating though considering my first test loads for my 6.5cm gas gun are shooting 1/2" with the 130 Bergers and H4350 with less superior brass (SIG).

By the way, this is where all my ADG brass is now - yes, that's 8 boxes, only 3 of which are opened.

Even after mandreling (is that a word?), seating force consistency was not what I wanted. I was able to get my hands on some Lapua and I've measured the seating force SD to be significantly better. Seating force consistency has a direct impact on muzzle velocity SDs. I got my hands on more Lapua and now the ADG sits in the back of my closet.

 

[supercorndogs]

Maybe N570 just isn’t accurate in your application?

Would you try a different powder or bullet first in a situation like this?

 

[918v]

Would you try a different powder or bullet first in a situation like this?

I would try H1000 with this bullet. This combo has worked well for a lot of people.

 

[Conrad]

H1000 is what you seek.

 

[Rh0dz]

H1000 will be filling cases this weekend. Thanks all

 

[secondofangle2]

View attachment 8113180
This was my first test. POI all over the place.

Any chance it’s you?

 

[Rh0dz]

Any chance it’s you?

I'm not ruling it out but im shooting other rifles just fine. I did take off my scope and completely relevel and torque everything.

 

[Conrad]

I’m in the process of loading for 300 PRC also. Got to shoot some today and 79.4 gr of H1000 with a 215 0.050” off at 3.683” shot 5 into .325” and 4 into 0.200”.

If you can’t get 215 to shoot the 205 elite hunter shot under 1/2” across 6 gr of powder.

This is all in a proof prefit. Shoots 212 eldx hood also.

 

[Rh0dz]

I’m in the process of loading for 300 PRC also. Got to shoot some today and 79.4 gr of H1000 with a 215 0.050” off at 3.683” shot 5 into .325” and 4 into 0.200”.

If you can’t get 215 to shoot the 205 elite hunter shot under 1/2” across 6 gr of powder.

This is all in a proof prefit. Shoots 212 eldx hood also.

Did you happen to get any velocities.

 

[Conrad]

24” barrel. About 2810 with 215 and 2835 with 212 ELDX.

I also took 220 LRHTs to 2845 with 80.8 gr H1000. My barrel only has about 60 rounds on it so just getting an idea of what works and where pressure is. Haven’t found pressure yet.

 

[Rh0dz]

24” barrel. About 2810 with 215 and 2835 with 212 ELDX.

I also took 220 LRHTs to 2845 with 80.8 gr H1000. My barrel only has about 60 rounds on it so just getting an idea of what works and where pressure is. Haven’t found pressure yet.

Nice. What brass?

 

[Conrad]

Lapua.

 

[Raffy]

I’m in the process of loading for 300 PRC also. Got to shoot some today and 79.4 gr of H1000 with a 215 0.050” off at 3.683” shot 5 into .325” and 4 into 0.200”.

If you can’t get 215 to shoot the 205 elite hunter shot under 1/2” across 6 gr of powder.

This is all in a proof prefit. Shoots 212 eldx hood also.

Is this a proof carbon or a proof steel barrel?

 

[Conrad]

Carbon, 10 lb hunting rifle.

 

[secondofangle2]

so if I read this correctly, we have reported here four and five shot groups that are under a quarter of an inch like benchrest groups in a 10 pound 30 caliber magnum hunting rifle that isn’t even broke in yet.

 

[Conrad]

Yep you heard it here. Do we want to talk about statistically relevant and all that jazz too? Point being is 215's should shoot with H1000 pretty easy.

And to be fair hunting rilfe is a bit of a misnomer these days and needs some context: Kratos Lite action, proof prefit, XLR MG 4.0, and excellent brass, bullets, and powder....not exactly pappy's 06.

 

[secondofangle2]

My point is for those trying to duplicate these results. They should not be disappointed or discouraged when they cannot.

 

[Conrad]

My point is for those trying to duplicate these results. They should not be disappointed or discouraged when they cannot.

This is true. I will say the Area419 Match 30 cal brake is taming this rifle nicely and could be of benefit if the OP isn't using a decent brake.

 

[Rh0dz]

H1000 was the ticket for me with the 215s. Only 2850 fps but 1/2" is nice. Opened up as velocity picked up at .010 OL. Undecided on if I should roll with lesser speed or play with seating depth on higher velocities as the ES was attractive. Obviously tiny data set but feel much better with H1000 over N570 with the 215s.

**Chrono died for last charge

Edit: adjusted zero after first group, so that POI isn't accurate.

 

[Conrad]

Try them .020 and .050 off. They shoot good there and in between. They are forgiving but I prefer to be no closer than .020 off.