If I was wanting to achieve 10 inch groups at 1000 yards with a .308 what rifle and barrel length should I use. Is it possible to achieve 10 inch groups at 1000 yards. How far would the bullet drop in inches from a 200 yard zero using factory federal 168 grain match grade boat tail hollow points? Would it shoot completely through a deer at 1000 yards?
- Thread starter walgren45
- Start date
Re: .308 1000 yards
if the barrel length is not an issue then longer woulden't hurt , I have seen 168gr SMK get to 1k out of a 26" barrel but they were hand loaded kinda hot , though the 175grs will do it a little better. I personaly like the 175gr Berger VLD's for anything out of the 308
The 168gr bullets drop ALOT as well as any other at 1000yds , you damn sure ain't gonna "hold over" from a 200yd zero.
Will a 308 kill a deer at 1000yds? YES , its it a good idea to purposly hunt deer at 1000yds with a 308 , I don't think so. The bullet slows down so much by that range that getting predictable bullet performance is had , having a bullet punch through without opening is a bad thing.
if the barrel length is not an issue then longer woulden't hurt , I have seen 168gr SMK get to 1k out of a 26" barrel but they were hand loaded kinda hot , though the 175grs will do it a little better. I personaly like the 175gr Berger VLD's for anything out of the 308
The 168gr bullets drop ALOT as well as any other at 1000yds , you damn sure ain't gonna "hold over" from a 200yd zero.
Will a 308 kill a deer at 1000yds? YES , its it a good idea to purposly hunt deer at 1000yds with a 308 , I don't think so. The bullet slows down so much by that range that getting predictable bullet performance is had , having a bullet punch through without opening is a bad thing.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Staff Sergeant, What weapon system would you recomend for top performance at 1000 yards with the .308 and what size of groups can be expected if the shooters experience matches the weapon system he is shooting?
Staff Sergeant, What weapon system would you recomend for top performance at 1000 yards with the .308 and what size of groups can be expected if the shooters experience matches the weapon system he is shooting?
Re: .308 1000 yards
First, DO NOT attempt to shoot a deer at 1000 yards. With the questions you are asking it is apparent that you do not have the skill to make a clean kill at that range.
Secondly at 1000 yards most 168gr .308 loads are subsonic and tumbling. 175gr are a better option or 155 Lapua Scenars.
A Remington 700 with 26" Varmint weight barrel theoretically has the accuracy to shoot MOA at 1000 yards in a no wind environment. It takes a great amount of skill to be able to do that.
You need to learn to shoot very accurately at closer ranges before you challenge the wind at 1000 yards.
First, DO NOT attempt to shoot a deer at 1000 yards. With the questions you are asking it is apparent that you do not have the skill to make a clean kill at that range.
Secondly at 1000 yards most 168gr .308 loads are subsonic and tumbling. 175gr are a better option or 155 Lapua Scenars.
A Remington 700 with 26" Varmint weight barrel theoretically has the accuracy to shoot MOA at 1000 yards in a no wind environment. It takes a great amount of skill to be able to do that.
You need to learn to shoot very accurately at closer ranges before you challenge the wind at 1000 yards.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: walgren45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Staff Sergeant, What weapon system would you recomend for top performance at 1000 yards with the .308 and what size of groups can be expected if the shooters experience matches the weapon system he is shooting? </div></div>
Simple answer is that there is NOT one weapon system that is better then another. A good rifleman can take a stock remmy 700 and shoot well at a grand. While you can give a tricked out custom rifle to an unexperienced shooter and they will have an expensive club. Thus the accuracy potential of any weapon is much more dependant on the shooter then the weapon. That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: walgren45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Staff Sergeant, What weapon system would you recomend for top performance at 1000 yards with the .308 and what size of groups can be expected if the shooters experience matches the weapon system he is shooting? </div></div>
Simple answer is that there is NOT one weapon system that is better then another. A good rifleman can take a stock remmy 700 and shoot well at a grand. While you can give a tricked out custom rifle to an unexperienced shooter and they will have an expensive club. Thus the accuracy potential of any weapon is much more dependant on the shooter then the weapon. That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if the barrel length is not an issue then longer woulden't hurt , I have seen 168gr SMK get to 1k out of a 26" barrel but they were hand loaded kinda hot , though the 175grs will do it a little better. I personaly like the 175gr Berger VLD's for anything out of the 308
The 168gr bullets drop ALOT as well as any other at 1000yds , you damn sure ain't gonna "hold over" from a 200yd zero.
Will a 308 kill a deer at 1000yds? YES , its it a good idea to purposly hunt deer at 1000yds with a 308 , I don't think so. The bullet slows down so much by that range that getting predictable bullet performance is had , having a bullet punch through without opening is a bad thing. </div></div>
+1
There is a lot more going on at 1k than just bullet drop with any 308, regardless of barrel length and bullet choice.
Unless you are a world class title holder, hitting a 10" target on a first shot, cold shooter and under field conditions is unlikely. Miss reading a wind call of just 1MPH can put you over a foot off point of aim. JBM ballistics will get you a good idea of drop. Out of my Remington 700 26" barrel I get 2630 for 168 FGMM (under standard atmosphere per jbm I'd be subsonic at 886 yards), a custom barrel will get 2700 +/- and few fps. Then there is the whole standard deviation thing... Which in my rifle would be +/- 8 inches per jbm.
175 berger vlds would be my pick (and are) with a range limit of 500-600 yards max, provided field/atmospheric conditions are good and I have shot in them before.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if the barrel length is not an issue then longer woulden't hurt , I have seen 168gr SMK get to 1k out of a 26" barrel but they were hand loaded kinda hot , though the 175grs will do it a little better. I personaly like the 175gr Berger VLD's for anything out of the 308
The 168gr bullets drop ALOT as well as any other at 1000yds , you damn sure ain't gonna "hold over" from a 200yd zero.
Will a 308 kill a deer at 1000yds? YES , its it a good idea to purposly hunt deer at 1000yds with a 308 , I don't think so. The bullet slows down so much by that range that getting predictable bullet performance is had , having a bullet punch through without opening is a bad thing. </div></div>
+1
There is a lot more going on at 1k than just bullet drop with any 308, regardless of barrel length and bullet choice.
Unless you are a world class title holder, hitting a 10" target on a first shot, cold shooter and under field conditions is unlikely. Miss reading a wind call of just 1MPH can put you over a foot off point of aim. JBM ballistics will get you a good idea of drop. Out of my Remington 700 26" barrel I get 2630 for 168 FGMM (under standard atmosphere per jbm I'd be subsonic at 886 yards), a custom barrel will get 2700 +/- and few fps. Then there is the whole standard deviation thing... Which in my rifle would be +/- 8 inches per jbm.
175 berger vlds would be my pick (and are) with a range limit of 500-600 yards max, provided field/atmospheric conditions are good and I have shot in them before.
Re: .308 1000 yards
I prefer to go by the 1000 ft/lbs rule when it comes to killing deer at a particular range. With sufficient velocity to have that sort of energy level typically means there is enough velocity to have the bullet open up in the game animal.
Now, as for your question, i'm sure the 168's COULD kill a deer at that range, but I wouldn't try it as it's not a ethical shot to take.
I use 208 Amax's in my .308, they hold 1000ft/lbs energy to a bit over 900 yards, so that is my theoretical range limit on a deer with my rifle and ammo. I have only shot this load to 800 yards and gotten the real world dope, so that strikes another 100 off my max range. I'm more comfortable making a 700 yard shot than an 800 yard shot because i've gotten a lot more time shooting at 700 than 800, ect.... Long story short, if you don't have the skill to make a shot at 400, what makes you think you'll do ok at 500, or 1000, I think you get the idea.
If you're stuck on using 168 SMk's I would stay inside 500, and only that far if you have the right equipment to get a accurate range on the animal, and if you have the skills to judge the wind, and hold steady enough on the animal to make for a good hit.
Branden
I prefer to go by the 1000 ft/lbs rule when it comes to killing deer at a particular range. With sufficient velocity to have that sort of energy level typically means there is enough velocity to have the bullet open up in the game animal.
Now, as for your question, i'm sure the 168's COULD kill a deer at that range, but I wouldn't try it as it's not a ethical shot to take.
I use 208 Amax's in my .308, they hold 1000ft/lbs energy to a bit over 900 yards, so that is my theoretical range limit on a deer with my rifle and ammo. I have only shot this load to 800 yards and gotten the real world dope, so that strikes another 100 off my max range. I'm more comfortable making a 700 yard shot than an 800 yard shot because i've gotten a lot more time shooting at 700 than 800, ect.... Long story short, if you don't have the skill to make a shot at 400, what makes you think you'll do ok at 500, or 1000, I think you get the idea.
If you're stuck on using 168 SMk's I would stay inside 500, and only that far if you have the right equipment to get a accurate range on the animal, and if you have the skills to judge the wind, and hold steady enough on the animal to make for a good hit.
Branden
Re: .308 1000 yards
Ok, first thanks to all for the information and opinions. I guess I have come accross as a non skilled shooter who thinks it would be cool to shoot 1000 yards. I have experience with shooting, not so much past 500 yards and mostly with iron sights. I was high shooter every time I went to the range while in Marines. My best string of fire from the 500 yard line was 9 hits out of a possible 10 with open sights using the m16. I spent most of my tour in marines teaching CQB which is (I Know)close range and not even with a rifle. My point is I can shoot but don't have lots of experience past 500 yards. I ask questions even if I think I know the answer because there is always someone out there who knows more. I don't have a wall full of shooting awards because I no nothing about shooting. This is directed mainly at lone wolf who stated I don't have the skill to shool at 1000. I mean all this in a good way I am just trying to say I aint a boyscout. I have the fundamentals but just like to hear from those who are making those long shots and get any advice they can give. If I can get set up with a quality outfit I can make the shot.
Ok, first thanks to all for the information and opinions. I guess I have come accross as a non skilled shooter who thinks it would be cool to shoot 1000 yards. I have experience with shooting, not so much past 500 yards and mostly with iron sights. I was high shooter every time I went to the range while in Marines. My best string of fire from the 500 yard line was 9 hits out of a possible 10 with open sights using the m16. I spent most of my tour in marines teaching CQB which is (I Know)close range and not even with a rifle. My point is I can shoot but don't have lots of experience past 500 yards. I ask questions even if I think I know the answer because there is always someone out there who knows more. I don't have a wall full of shooting awards because I no nothing about shooting. This is directed mainly at lone wolf who stated I don't have the skill to shool at 1000. I mean all this in a good way I am just trying to say I aint a boyscout. I have the fundamentals but just like to hear from those who are making those long shots and get any advice they can give. If I can get set up with a quality outfit I can make the shot.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: walgren45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Staff Sergeant, What weapon system would you recomend for top performance at 1000 yards with the .308 and what size of groups can be expected if the shooters experience matches the weapon system he is shooting? </div></div>
When I read the above last night, my initial and subsequent reaction was exactly that of lonewolfusmc, (which is disturning in itself,) but I elected to not say anything and see what came up. As I said, LoneWolf expressed my thoughts exactly so there was no need to add to it.
Then I saw the following response and at this point, I have to answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Simple answer is that there is NOT one weapon system that is better then another. A good rifleman can take a stock remmy 700 and shoot well at a grand. While you can give a tricked out custom rifle to an unexperienced shooter and they will have an expensive club. Thus the accuracy potential of any weapon is much more dependant on the shooter then the weapon. That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long. </div></div>
The above comment has to come from someone who has never shot at 1000 yards. Accuracy at that distance is a combination marksmanship and equipment. Add some wind and mirage to the mix and you have unpredictability.
A stock Remmy 700 with factory ammo, will not shoot well at 1000, regardless of the shooter, if by well you mean a 10 inch groups. Unless it's a one-shot group. One MOA shooting at 1000 yards is a very difficult thing to accomplish, especially with a .308. A half-MOA group is 4 times as difficult.
I shoot competitively at 1000 yards every month, F-class. I have yet to see anyone "shooting 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," and apart from some top level benchrest shooters (who will not be using a stock Remmy in .308,) I have never heard of an "experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," in F-open, let alone F-T/R.
Has it ever been done? I'm sure it has and that's why there are records, but it's not "all day long." Heck, looking over some of my more recent score sheets, I can pull out instances where I have a series of 10s and Xs at 1000 yards of 5 or more consecutive shots with my .308. But it's not a stock rifle and the ammo is definitely not 168gr SMK and I am under no delusion that I am able to shoot 1 MOA at a grand all the time, let alone "1/2 moa at a grand all day long."
I will also tell you that equipment DOES make a difference, saying that it does not simply denotes an ignorance of the discipline.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: walgren45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Staff Sergeant, What weapon system would you recomend for top performance at 1000 yards with the .308 and what size of groups can be expected if the shooters experience matches the weapon system he is shooting? </div></div>
When I read the above last night, my initial and subsequent reaction was exactly that of lonewolfusmc, (which is disturning in itself,) but I elected to not say anything and see what came up. As I said, LoneWolf expressed my thoughts exactly so there was no need to add to it.
Then I saw the following response and at this point, I have to answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Simple answer is that there is NOT one weapon system that is better then another. A good rifleman can take a stock remmy 700 and shoot well at a grand. While you can give a tricked out custom rifle to an unexperienced shooter and they will have an expensive club. Thus the accuracy potential of any weapon is much more dependant on the shooter then the weapon. That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long. </div></div>
The above comment has to come from someone who has never shot at 1000 yards. Accuracy at that distance is a combination marksmanship and equipment. Add some wind and mirage to the mix and you have unpredictability.
A stock Remmy 700 with factory ammo, will not shoot well at 1000, regardless of the shooter, if by well you mean a 10 inch groups. Unless it's a one-shot group. One MOA shooting at 1000 yards is a very difficult thing to accomplish, especially with a .308. A half-MOA group is 4 times as difficult.
I shoot competitively at 1000 yards every month, F-class. I have yet to see anyone "shooting 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," and apart from some top level benchrest shooters (who will not be using a stock Remmy in .308,) I have never heard of an "experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," in F-open, let alone F-T/R.
Has it ever been done? I'm sure it has and that's why there are records, but it's not "all day long." Heck, looking over some of my more recent score sheets, I can pull out instances where I have a series of 10s and Xs at 1000 yards of 5 or more consecutive shots with my .308. But it's not a stock rifle and the ammo is definitely not 168gr SMK and I am under no delusion that I am able to shoot 1 MOA at a grand all the time, let alone "1/2 moa at a grand all day long."
I will also tell you that equipment DOES make a difference, saying that it does not simply denotes an ignorance of the discipline.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: walgren45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have a wall full of shooting awards because I no nothing about shooting. This is directed mainly at lone wolf who stated I don't have the skill to shool at 1000......I have the fundamentals but just like to hear from those who are making those long shots and get any advice they can give. If I can get set up with a quality outfit I can make the shot. </div></div>
Marine I ain't trying to disrespect you, but you aren't picking up what I am laying down.
I dabble in IDPA on the side and have quite a bit of experience with combat pistol. I too have multiple award expert on my SRB with both pistol and rifle. What you experienced in the Corps is NOTHING like shooting a rifle at 1000 yards.
Think back to sitting on the 500 yard line prone. Did you ever execute the fundamentals perfectly and drop a shot out of the X? What caused it? My bet is on wind. Now take those wind effects at 500 and magnify them by a factor of five. At 500 yards a 10mph wind will blow the 168gr Sierra 20". At 1000 yards that same 10 mph wind will blow the bullet 103" off target. Just a ONE mph goof in wind will blow the round 10" off target. Now add to this the fact that the wind doesn't blow consistently. It may be 10 mph where you are and blow 20 mph at max-ord. Or it may decide to play games like switching direction 180* degrees while you are breaking the shot.
You can have PERFECT fundamentals, unless you have the time with your nose in the wind, sending rounds downrange at 1000 yards you DO NOT have the skill to do it. This is not a bash on you, it's a statement of fact.
If you are near LeJuene, head down to the Hathcock range when Sniper School is shooting. Watch the wind and what it does to guys who are skilled at shooting long range.
Can you gain the skill required to shoot 15-20" targets at 1000 yards? Sure. It isn't rocket science and it's even easier to learn if you already know your way around a rifle. Gaining the skill to clean a 10" target at 1000 yards may take the rest of your life.
Now if you are ready to try, spend some time reading the reams of info on here about beginner rifles. The question of "what rifle for a beginner" is the most asked question on this forum.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: walgren45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have a wall full of shooting awards because I no nothing about shooting. This is directed mainly at lone wolf who stated I don't have the skill to shool at 1000......I have the fundamentals but just like to hear from those who are making those long shots and get any advice they can give. If I can get set up with a quality outfit I can make the shot. </div></div>
Marine I ain't trying to disrespect you, but you aren't picking up what I am laying down.
I dabble in IDPA on the side and have quite a bit of experience with combat pistol. I too have multiple award expert on my SRB with both pistol and rifle. What you experienced in the Corps is NOTHING like shooting a rifle at 1000 yards.
Think back to sitting on the 500 yard line prone. Did you ever execute the fundamentals perfectly and drop a shot out of the X? What caused it? My bet is on wind. Now take those wind effects at 500 and magnify them by a factor of five. At 500 yards a 10mph wind will blow the 168gr Sierra 20". At 1000 yards that same 10 mph wind will blow the bullet 103" off target. Just a ONE mph goof in wind will blow the round 10" off target. Now add to this the fact that the wind doesn't blow consistently. It may be 10 mph where you are and blow 20 mph at max-ord. Or it may decide to play games like switching direction 180* degrees while you are breaking the shot.
You can have PERFECT fundamentals, unless you have the time with your nose in the wind, sending rounds downrange at 1000 yards you DO NOT have the skill to do it. This is not a bash on you, it's a statement of fact.
If you are near LeJuene, head down to the Hathcock range when Sniper School is shooting. Watch the wind and what it does to guys who are skilled at shooting long range.
Can you gain the skill required to shoot 15-20" targets at 1000 yards? Sure. It isn't rocket science and it's even easier to learn if you already know your way around a rifle. Gaining the skill to clean a 10" target at 1000 yards may take the rest of your life.
Now if you are ready to try, spend some time reading the reams of info on here about beginner rifles. The question of "what rifle for a beginner" is the most asked question on this forum.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then I saw the following response and at this point, I have to answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Simple answer is that there is NOT one weapon system that is better then another. A good rifleman can take a stock remmy 700 and shoot well at a grand. While you can give a tricked out custom rifle to an unexperienced shooter and they will have an expensive club. Thus the accuracy potential of any weapon is much more dependant on the shooter then the weapon. That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long. </div></div>
The above comment has to come from someone who has never shot at 1000 yards. Accuracy at that distance is a combination marksmanship and equipment. Add some wind and mirage to the mix and you have unpredictability.
A stock Remmy 700 with factory ammo, will not shoot well at 1000, regardless of the shooter, if by well you mean a 10 inch groups. Unless it's a one-shot group. One MOA shooting at 1000 yards is a very difficult thing to accomplish, especially with a .308. A half-MOA group is 4 times as difficult.
I shoot competitively at 1000 yards every month, F-class. I have yet to see anyone "shooting 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," and apart from some top level benchrest shooters (who will not be using a stock Remmy in .308,) I have never heard of an "experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," in F-open, let alone F-T/R.
Has it ever been done? I'm sure it has and that's why there are records, but it's not "all day long." Heck, looking over some of my more recent score sheets, I can pull out instances where I have a series of 10s and Xs at 1000 yards of 5 or more consecutive shots with my .308. But it's not a stock rifle and the ammo is definitely not 168gr SMK and I am under no delusion that I am able to shoot 1 MOA at a grand all the time, let alone "1/2 moa at a grand all day long."
I will also tell you that equipment DOES make a difference, saying that it does not simply denotes an ignorance of the discipline. </div></div>
Sig 685 you misinterrupt my comment. I'm not saying that equipment doesn't make a difference. However the shooter does have a lot more to do with marksmanship then the equipment. That being said I have seen good marksman take stock Remmys a shoot well at a grand. It is not impossible, it just takes a skilled hand. On the other hand it is much easier with good equipment.
As for my shooting record. Well I'm not going say anything other then I have shoot in excess of a grand and been successful. Getting in a pissing contest with someone over the internet about such subjects is trivial at best.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then I saw the following response and at this point, I have to answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Simple answer is that there is NOT one weapon system that is better then another. A good rifleman can take a stock remmy 700 and shoot well at a grand. While you can give a tricked out custom rifle to an unexperienced shooter and they will have an expensive club. Thus the accuracy potential of any weapon is much more dependant on the shooter then the weapon. That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long. </div></div>
The above comment has to come from someone who has never shot at 1000 yards. Accuracy at that distance is a combination marksmanship and equipment. Add some wind and mirage to the mix and you have unpredictability.
A stock Remmy 700 with factory ammo, will not shoot well at 1000, regardless of the shooter, if by well you mean a 10 inch groups. Unless it's a one-shot group. One MOA shooting at 1000 yards is a very difficult thing to accomplish, especially with a .308. A half-MOA group is 4 times as difficult.
I shoot competitively at 1000 yards every month, F-class. I have yet to see anyone "shooting 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," and apart from some top level benchrest shooters (who will not be using a stock Remmy in .308,) I have never heard of an "experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long," in F-open, let alone F-T/R.
Has it ever been done? I'm sure it has and that's why there are records, but it's not "all day long." Heck, looking over some of my more recent score sheets, I can pull out instances where I have a series of 10s and Xs at 1000 yards of 5 or more consecutive shots with my .308. But it's not a stock rifle and the ammo is definitely not 168gr SMK and I am under no delusion that I am able to shoot 1 MOA at a grand all the time, let alone "1/2 moa at a grand all day long."
I will also tell you that equipment DOES make a difference, saying that it does not simply denotes an ignorance of the discipline. </div></div>
Sig 685 you misinterrupt my comment. I'm not saying that equipment doesn't make a difference. However the shooter does have a lot more to do with marksmanship then the equipment. That being said I have seen good marksman take stock Remmys a shoot well at a grand. It is not impossible, it just takes a skilled hand. On the other hand it is much easier with good equipment.
As for my shooting record. Well I'm not going say anything other then I have shoot in excess of a grand and been successful. Getting in a pissing contest with someone over the internet about such subjects is trivial at best.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Hey brother, thanks for the info, I understand what you are saying. Semper FI
Hey brother, thanks for the info, I understand what you are saying. Semper FI
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for my shooting record. Well I'm not going say anything other then I have shoot in excess of a grand and been successful. Getting in a pissing contest with someone over the internet about such subjects is trivial at best. </div></div>
If that's how you interpret what I wrote, there is nothing I can say or do about it. I'm just sad you read it that way.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for my shooting record. Well I'm not going say anything other then I have shoot in excess of a grand and been successful. Getting in a pissing contest with someone over the internet about such subjects is trivial at best. </div></div>
If that's how you interpret what I wrote, there is nothing I can say or do about it. I'm just sad you read it that way.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for my shooting record. Well I'm not going say anything other then I have shoot in excess of a grand and been successful. Getting in a pissing contest with someone over the internet about such subjects is trivial at best. </div></div>
If that's how you interpret what I wrote, there is nothing I can say or do about it. I'm just sad you read it that way. </div></div>
Not sure how else I can read it
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The above comment has to come from someone who has never shot at 1000 yards.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for my shooting record. Well I'm not going say anything other then I have shoot in excess of a grand and been successful. Getting in a pissing contest with someone over the internet about such subjects is trivial at best. </div></div>
If that's how you interpret what I wrote, there is nothing I can say or do about it. I'm just sad you read it that way. </div></div>
Not sure how else I can read it
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The above comment has to come from someone who has never shot at 1000 yards.</div></div>
Re: .308 1000 yards
Remember, you asked for it.
When I mentioned records, I meant national records. At quick visit to nrahq.org in the records section would have revealed that the current F-Class Open record at 1000 yard is 200-13. Now, at my club one of our shooters got a 200-15, but the match was not sanctioned for record setting. He shot this with a 6.5-284 rifle that weight around 20 pounds. It's not what I would call a stock Remmy 700, by any means.
An F-class target has an X-ring that is essentially 1/2 MOA and a 10-ring that is just a shade under 1 MOA. It is very rare to see a shooter get a clean at 1000 yards in F-class.
The national record for F-T/R is 199-12, that's with a .308. At our club, the range record is 194-5 at 1000 yards, also with a .308. Those are records, not average scores.
I mentioned the benchrest shooters and I went looking at some of their records. The listed records are found at nbrsa.com and I have their current spreadsheet, the problem is I know there have been some new records set this season and they are not listed in the sheet. But the sheet shows that the 10 shot aggregate for 60 shots is 6.046 inches in Heavy Gun division, unlimited pounds. That is definitely not a stock Remmy 700 and even then the shooter did not stay inside "1/2 MOA all day long."
Unless there is more than one Montgomery in Texas, I invite you to get on 105 East and drive to I-45 South (maybe even via 336 to avoid traffic) on the first Sunday of each month and come shoot with us off 288 South. I am dying to see what you mean by being "successful at a grand." If you can shoot "1/2 MOA all day long" at a 1000 with a .308, I will come here and proclaim it to the world.
And oh, by the way, you are the first person I know who calls it "a grand." We all call it "the thousandyard" (one word) or "atathousand" for short.
My big issue with your comments is that you are setting incorrect expectations for someone who was asking for information about shooting a .308 at 1000 yards and I wanted to dispell that.
Remember, you asked for it.
When I mentioned records, I meant national records. At quick visit to nrahq.org in the records section would have revealed that the current F-Class Open record at 1000 yard is 200-13. Now, at my club one of our shooters got a 200-15, but the match was not sanctioned for record setting. He shot this with a 6.5-284 rifle that weight around 20 pounds. It's not what I would call a stock Remmy 700, by any means.
An F-class target has an X-ring that is essentially 1/2 MOA and a 10-ring that is just a shade under 1 MOA. It is very rare to see a shooter get a clean at 1000 yards in F-class.
The national record for F-T/R is 199-12, that's with a .308. At our club, the range record is 194-5 at 1000 yards, also with a .308. Those are records, not average scores.
I mentioned the benchrest shooters and I went looking at some of their records. The listed records are found at nbrsa.com and I have their current spreadsheet, the problem is I know there have been some new records set this season and they are not listed in the sheet. But the sheet shows that the 10 shot aggregate for 60 shots is 6.046 inches in Heavy Gun division, unlimited pounds. That is definitely not a stock Remmy 700 and even then the shooter did not stay inside "1/2 MOA all day long."
Unless there is more than one Montgomery in Texas, I invite you to get on 105 East and drive to I-45 South (maybe even via 336 to avoid traffic) on the first Sunday of each month and come shoot with us off 288 South. I am dying to see what you mean by being "successful at a grand." If you can shoot "1/2 MOA all day long" at a 1000 with a .308, I will come here and proclaim it to the world.
And oh, by the way, you are the first person I know who calls it "a grand." We all call it "the thousandyard" (one word) or "atathousand" for short.
My big issue with your comments is that you are setting incorrect expectations for someone who was asking for information about shooting a .308 at 1000 yards and I wanted to dispell that.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Sig685 I'm well aware of Bayou rifles. And I'm not fan of the club. I went and did orientation for potential members I found they aren't fans of my rifles. Those no big bore and NFA weapon rules killed me. Thus I haven't been back.
On the subject of Benchrest shooters. I have the utmost respect for ya'll but I can tell you from experience that record groups are shoot every day and not recorded. There are tons of excellent rifleman that don't compete or care to (me being one).
On terminology well sorry if you don't like mine. I speak like speak and if you don't agree with my terminology then that is your issue. I've found that I convey my meaning without confusion. I see you knew what I was talking about, thus I got my point across.
I don't see how I am setting incorrect expectations for anyone. All I said was that skill was more important that gear. Which is 100% correct. After all there are plenty of factory weapon systems that can shoot 1000 yards effectively (M24 to name one).
At any rate I think we can both agree to disagree. No matter how much either one of use types we will never agree with one another. Thus I'm done debating this issue with you. We are of differing options and that will not change.
Sig685 I'm well aware of Bayou rifles. And I'm not fan of the club. I went and did orientation for potential members I found they aren't fans of my rifles. Those no big bore and NFA weapon rules killed me. Thus I haven't been back.
On the subject of Benchrest shooters. I have the utmost respect for ya'll but I can tell you from experience that record groups are shoot every day and not recorded. There are tons of excellent rifleman that don't compete or care to (me being one).
On terminology well sorry if you don't like mine. I speak like speak and if you don't agree with my terminology then that is your issue. I've found that I convey my meaning without confusion. I see you knew what I was talking about, thus I got my point across.
I don't see how I am setting incorrect expectations for anyone. All I said was that skill was more important that gear. Which is 100% correct. After all there are plenty of factory weapon systems that can shoot 1000 yards effectively (M24 to name one).
At any rate I think we can both agree to disagree. No matter how much either one of use types we will never agree with one another. Thus I'm done debating this issue with you. We are of differing options and that will not change.
Re: .308 1000 yards
I have no doubt that record groups are shot every day by benchrest shooters, just not with "stock Remmy 700" in .308 at 1000 yards.
This is the statement that you made which I contend sets incorrect expectations for someone wanting to shoot a .308 at 1000 yards:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long.</div></div>
That is what I disagree with.
I do not disagree that skill is more important than gear, but at 1000 yard the quality of the gear WILL make a difference and very often a difference that simply cannot be overcome with any degree of skill. The two go hand in hand and part of the long range marksmanship skillset is choosing and assembling a proper rifle system that will do the job with your pure marksmanship skills. There is nothing worse than being limited by your equipment.
The folks who win matches are the ones who have the proper (not necessarely the best) equipment, with very consistant handloads using top flight components. They come prepared to shoot, focused on the task at hand and uses their skills to drive this equipment properly.
So, what do you mean by "shoot 1000 yards effectively?" Is that "holding 1/2 moa at a grand all day long?"
I have no doubt that record groups are shot every day by benchrest shooters, just not with "stock Remmy 700" in .308 at 1000 yards.
This is the statement that you made which I contend sets incorrect expectations for someone wanting to shoot a .308 at 1000 yards:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That being said there are many experienced rifleman out there that can hold 1/2 moa at a grand all day long.</div></div>
That is what I disagree with.
I do not disagree that skill is more important than gear, but at 1000 yard the quality of the gear WILL make a difference and very often a difference that simply cannot be overcome with any degree of skill. The two go hand in hand and part of the long range marksmanship skillset is choosing and assembling a proper rifle system that will do the job with your pure marksmanship skills. There is nothing worse than being limited by your equipment.
The folks who win matches are the ones who have the proper (not necessarely the best) equipment, with very consistant handloads using top flight components. They come prepared to shoot, focused on the task at hand and uses their skills to drive this equipment properly.
So, what do you mean by "shoot 1000 yards effectively?" Is that "holding 1/2 moa at a grand all day long?"
Re: .308 1000 yards
Let me take a stab at this.
10" groups all day at 1000 yards requires several things.
First off you are going to have to have ammo that is capable of extreme spread of no more than 15 feet per second for thirty consecutive shots. Check the ballistic calculations and you will see 100 feet per second extreme spread will give you 40 inches of elevation alone thusly 50 feet per second will give 20" of elevation and 25 feet 10". This is a very precise game and if EVERYTHING is not EXACTLY RIGHT the elevation alone will take you out. Why do I say 15 feet basically unless you are shooting F class I doubt you can hold within five inches at 1000 yards and if you are shooting F class you are laying down with maybe $1500.00 worth of support equipment. Five inch wobble with 8" ammo is not going to make it either so maybe you better cut that to ten fps extreme spread and that just takes care of elevation variants.
So you have hold error and yes you do, you have hold error unless you are dead because every time your heart beats the rifle moves. Next is ammo velocity variation those two are stone killers first thing out the gate. Add in mirage, wind and temp changes and you have three more variables to contend with.
You are going to have to load your own ammo as you cannot buy 1/2 MOA ammo from any vendor.
This will not only require first class loading equipment but you are gonna need a chronograph to see how your quality control (translation out of control) is doing. LC M118 Match White box with 173 gr bullets will give 50 to 65 fps extreme spread. The long range M118 is supposed to be better but.............
Thusly the first couple of thousand bucks needs to be for loading equipment. Then you are going to have to develop load discipline to insure repeatability in every round and that involves testing, testing, testing and more testing. You have four or five brands of primers, maybe a hundred different propellants, 30 different proven long range bullets so figuring out what will work is an art form.
Sorry to say what works in one rifle well most likely won't work in another as every barrel is different. Barrels are like women, when you think you have them figured out stand by for news.
Lets say you can load ammo that gives 15 fps or less for 30 rounds every time you have about 2% of the problem licked.
Next you have to build the rifle or have it built. I would suggest you get a copy of Precision Rifle Barrel Fitting by Hinnant. You can get the book from a number of places. That will give you about a hundred pages of just what needs to be in the action alone.
Next you need a top flight barrel and there are no factory guns that run in this league unless you get real lucky. For that matter you are lucky to get a straight one. For that matter it is remarkable to get a barrel with the hole in the middle.
OK you got a good barrel and a squared action next comes the stock and the bedding. If this is not done correctly you will get vibrations going that will open your groups up to patterns.
Figure on about 1500 bucks for a good scope for it. What defines a good scope? No it is not the name, it is the repeatability and resolution.
How to check a scope for repeatability:
First shoot a group at 200 yards and if you have a super 1000 yard rifle this will be under an inch. Next crank your elevation and windage knobs as follows (all numbers are in clicks). Up 20, right 20, down 20 and left 20 and fire another shot. If your scope repeats you will have the fourth shot right in with other three.
OK say you get lucky there and you have four in a cluster now crank it down 20, left 20, up 20 and right 20 and shoot the fifth shot and see where it goes and continue on until all four quadrants are run. If you don't have shots all in a cluster your scope is not dead on and very few will be so don't run off to UPS and send it back. You just need to know what your fire control mechanism will do in certain situations.
OK lets say you are the ammo guru from hell and your ammo is first rate, your barrel is first rate, you can hold in 3" at 1000 yards and you can control your heart rate to keep it low and slow you are thereby awarded one ATTABOY because now you have 5% of the problem licked.
As the guys above are trying to say just because you have the fastest car on the track doesn't mean you are gonna win the race or even find the track.
Experience is the name of this game. Having a good coach helps tremendously but unless you are a natural, the work is just beginning. Some guys can look at mirage and pretty well know what it is worth in wind value and elevation value. For instance I was shooting Palma Course at Camp Perry one year and the mirage was running like a bear and all of a sudden the wind quit and the mirage just boiled. Carl Bernosky had already told me the boil was worth four to five minutes of elevation. That is enough to put you over the target or under the target if you are wrong. I laid there and watched the mirage for about eight minutes and was running out of time so with 30 seconds left I cranked elevation down four minutes and sent it. Hung a line 10 at 12 o'clock. I should have gone down five MOA and got a X.
Another time I came off the thousand yard line with 13 Minutes of wind. Guy I was to score was Col Bill Brophy (author of the Book of the Springfield, Krag and others) who was one of the top long range shooters in the nation for years. As he rolled into the gun and got his position he took it out of his shoulder and looked back at me and asked, "What's the wind worth?" I told him, "Give me 55 right and bust it." His mouth dropped open and he said , "55 right ???/!!!) I shook my head "yep". In those days we only had two sighter shots at 1000 yards.
He broke it and target went down and came up a 12 o'clock 9, dead on for wind. He looked back and smiled and said, "I would have never believed it."
This year at Perry I came off with a huge handful of wind. I wasn't sure of my wind zero so I asked the guy next to me who was shooting 185 Bergers (who took third in Palma) what he had on and he came off with 13 minutes. I was shooting 175s. I have not touched the sights since I left Perry and I am going to crank the elevation down and see what I have. I suspect I have 14 to 15 minutes of wind on it and the mirage didn't show it, the flags didn't show it but the bullets sure knew it.
As the guys are trying to tell you EXPERIENCE wins matches assuming equipment is up to par and getting the other 95% will take you years.
Let me take a stab at this.
10" groups all day at 1000 yards requires several things.
First off you are going to have to have ammo that is capable of extreme spread of no more than 15 feet per second for thirty consecutive shots. Check the ballistic calculations and you will see 100 feet per second extreme spread will give you 40 inches of elevation alone thusly 50 feet per second will give 20" of elevation and 25 feet 10". This is a very precise game and if EVERYTHING is not EXACTLY RIGHT the elevation alone will take you out. Why do I say 15 feet basically unless you are shooting F class I doubt you can hold within five inches at 1000 yards and if you are shooting F class you are laying down with maybe $1500.00 worth of support equipment. Five inch wobble with 8" ammo is not going to make it either so maybe you better cut that to ten fps extreme spread and that just takes care of elevation variants.
So you have hold error and yes you do, you have hold error unless you are dead because every time your heart beats the rifle moves. Next is ammo velocity variation those two are stone killers first thing out the gate. Add in mirage, wind and temp changes and you have three more variables to contend with.
You are going to have to load your own ammo as you cannot buy 1/2 MOA ammo from any vendor.
This will not only require first class loading equipment but you are gonna need a chronograph to see how your quality control (translation out of control) is doing. LC M118 Match White box with 173 gr bullets will give 50 to 65 fps extreme spread. The long range M118 is supposed to be better but.............
Thusly the first couple of thousand bucks needs to be for loading equipment. Then you are going to have to develop load discipline to insure repeatability in every round and that involves testing, testing, testing and more testing. You have four or five brands of primers, maybe a hundred different propellants, 30 different proven long range bullets so figuring out what will work is an art form.
Sorry to say what works in one rifle well most likely won't work in another as every barrel is different. Barrels are like women, when you think you have them figured out stand by for news.
Lets say you can load ammo that gives 15 fps or less for 30 rounds every time you have about 2% of the problem licked.
Next you have to build the rifle or have it built. I would suggest you get a copy of Precision Rifle Barrel Fitting by Hinnant. You can get the book from a number of places. That will give you about a hundred pages of just what needs to be in the action alone.
Next you need a top flight barrel and there are no factory guns that run in this league unless you get real lucky. For that matter you are lucky to get a straight one. For that matter it is remarkable to get a barrel with the hole in the middle.
OK you got a good barrel and a squared action next comes the stock and the bedding. If this is not done correctly you will get vibrations going that will open your groups up to patterns.
Figure on about 1500 bucks for a good scope for it. What defines a good scope? No it is not the name, it is the repeatability and resolution.
How to check a scope for repeatability:
First shoot a group at 200 yards and if you have a super 1000 yard rifle this will be under an inch. Next crank your elevation and windage knobs as follows (all numbers are in clicks). Up 20, right 20, down 20 and left 20 and fire another shot. If your scope repeats you will have the fourth shot right in with other three.
OK say you get lucky there and you have four in a cluster now crank it down 20, left 20, up 20 and right 20 and shoot the fifth shot and see where it goes and continue on until all four quadrants are run. If you don't have shots all in a cluster your scope is not dead on and very few will be so don't run off to UPS and send it back. You just need to know what your fire control mechanism will do in certain situations.
OK lets say you are the ammo guru from hell and your ammo is first rate, your barrel is first rate, you can hold in 3" at 1000 yards and you can control your heart rate to keep it low and slow you are thereby awarded one ATTABOY because now you have 5% of the problem licked.
As the guys above are trying to say just because you have the fastest car on the track doesn't mean you are gonna win the race or even find the track.
Experience is the name of this game. Having a good coach helps tremendously but unless you are a natural, the work is just beginning. Some guys can look at mirage and pretty well know what it is worth in wind value and elevation value. For instance I was shooting Palma Course at Camp Perry one year and the mirage was running like a bear and all of a sudden the wind quit and the mirage just boiled. Carl Bernosky had already told me the boil was worth four to five minutes of elevation. That is enough to put you over the target or under the target if you are wrong. I laid there and watched the mirage for about eight minutes and was running out of time so with 30 seconds left I cranked elevation down four minutes and sent it. Hung a line 10 at 12 o'clock. I should have gone down five MOA and got a X.
Another time I came off the thousand yard line with 13 Minutes of wind. Guy I was to score was Col Bill Brophy (author of the Book of the Springfield, Krag and others) who was one of the top long range shooters in the nation for years. As he rolled into the gun and got his position he took it out of his shoulder and looked back at me and asked, "What's the wind worth?" I told him, "Give me 55 right and bust it." His mouth dropped open and he said , "55 right ???/!!!) I shook my head "yep". In those days we only had two sighter shots at 1000 yards.
He broke it and target went down and came up a 12 o'clock 9, dead on for wind. He looked back and smiled and said, "I would have never believed it."
This year at Perry I came off with a huge handful of wind. I wasn't sure of my wind zero so I asked the guy next to me who was shooting 185 Bergers (who took third in Palma) what he had on and he came off with 13 minutes. I was shooting 175s. I have not touched the sights since I left Perry and I am going to crank the elevation down and see what I have. I suspect I have 14 to 15 minutes of wind on it and the mirage didn't show it, the flags didn't show it but the bullets sure knew it.
As the guys are trying to tell you EXPERIENCE wins matches assuming equipment is up to par and getting the other 95% will take you years.
Re: .308 1000 yards
mossberg .308 with superseal mildot
mossberg .308 with superseal mildot
Re: .308 1000 yards
hummer that was great thank you for the info and how you put it
hummer that was great thank you for the info and how you put it
Re: .308 1000 yards
When I was at Aberdeen I was on the US Palma Team and the US Dewar Team in the same year. I was testing the M16A1E (M16A2 as adopted) for the Marines and the post paper had just done a big front page story on my shooting and I get a call from the Army Material Systems Analysis Agency whose shop was right down the road from ours and this analyst says he has a question for me and wants my opinion of the feasibility of a requirements document they had sent in.
Basically they had a requirement for a MOA 50 BMG rifle at 1500 yards and they wanted to know if it was feasible. I thought about it and told him it was if he had certain parameters met and I went through the ammo requirements and the barrel requirements and I told him if he had all that down he had 5% of the problem solved.
He asked what the other 95% consisted of and I asked him "Who are you gonna get to shoot this thing?"
Between 81 and 86 I made the Palma Twenty five times so I was in the top 20 Long Range shooters that went to Perry five out of six years and the year I missed I made the Palma Twentyone haha.
I had finished second place in the Canadian Cup twice so I was on my game. I won the Palma Trophy Match twice and the Centenary Trophy and I did it all with a 30.06.
I explained to him that on any given day there was about 50 people in the country capable of attempting such a shot and that 30 of us were beyond draft age and the other 20 were Marine and Army E7s, E8s or officers and they were the senior training cadre and couldn't be sent on such a mission as that kind of experience was needed to train shooters.
I suspect there are perhaps 120 with that level of experience now with the establishment of long range events and the development of equipment designed for long range.
The other day I was watching something on the History Channel and they had a couple of MTU guys shooting a 338 Lapua at 1000 at Benning for their show. I forget the name of that range but I have shot on it numerous times and in those days it was in bad shape. Now it looks like Range 4 at Quantico which is the country club of shooting ranges.
I thought it kind of funny because that is a great long distance location as it is in a valley and the wind is very kind to shooters most of the time. They shot this series for the camera at a full size E silhouette and tagged it five out of five and they had about a 15" group. And the Sergeant gets my vote for honesty and integrity when he made the statement that he was surprised it was that good from a cold barrel.
Now any one who ever put on a military demo knows they had been out there every morning at the same time for a week prior checking zeros and getting it down pat for the big show and I suspect they had not been that lucky on several of those days haha. But they knew how to pick the conditions. The long range telephoto view showed just a faint trickle of mirage. The range flag was dead still and conditions were ideal for a Hollywood production.
Every year at Camp Perry when the Wimbledon, Leech Cups are fired if I am scoring I always scan the entire line to see just how many guys get in the 10 ring at 1000 yards on the first shot and out of a hundred shooters on line you will have one or two.
At Perry I have had two first shot Xs at 1000 yards since 1973.
The first time was 1975 when we were trying out for the US Palma Team Bi-Centennial Team and the wind was blowing to hell and gone. I was well up in the Palma contention list and the wind was blowing to hell and gone. It was low light and misting rain and I busted the first shot with a 308 and literally hit the X in the middle of the ring. I refused to believe it was my shot and I shot again and got a 10 fully expecting it to come up a miss and was basically praying it would be on paper. The Lord was very kind to me that day.
It happened again this year. I laid down with iron sights and had clicked up from a 900 yard zero I had here at home and lo and behold I had a cold clean bore first shot that came up a X at 8:00 about three inches in. I put in the next round and shot another X about four inches higher at 10:00.
Such luck will in all probability will never come my way again unless the Lord desires it.
When I was at Aberdeen I was on the US Palma Team and the US Dewar Team in the same year. I was testing the M16A1E (M16A2 as adopted) for the Marines and the post paper had just done a big front page story on my shooting and I get a call from the Army Material Systems Analysis Agency whose shop was right down the road from ours and this analyst says he has a question for me and wants my opinion of the feasibility of a requirements document they had sent in.
Basically they had a requirement for a MOA 50 BMG rifle at 1500 yards and they wanted to know if it was feasible. I thought about it and told him it was if he had certain parameters met and I went through the ammo requirements and the barrel requirements and I told him if he had all that down he had 5% of the problem solved.
He asked what the other 95% consisted of and I asked him "Who are you gonna get to shoot this thing?"
Between 81 and 86 I made the Palma Twenty five times so I was in the top 20 Long Range shooters that went to Perry five out of six years and the year I missed I made the Palma Twentyone haha.
I had finished second place in the Canadian Cup twice so I was on my game. I won the Palma Trophy Match twice and the Centenary Trophy and I did it all with a 30.06.
I explained to him that on any given day there was about 50 people in the country capable of attempting such a shot and that 30 of us were beyond draft age and the other 20 were Marine and Army E7s, E8s or officers and they were the senior training cadre and couldn't be sent on such a mission as that kind of experience was needed to train shooters.
I suspect there are perhaps 120 with that level of experience now with the establishment of long range events and the development of equipment designed for long range.
The other day I was watching something on the History Channel and they had a couple of MTU guys shooting a 338 Lapua at 1000 at Benning for their show. I forget the name of that range but I have shot on it numerous times and in those days it was in bad shape. Now it looks like Range 4 at Quantico which is the country club of shooting ranges.
I thought it kind of funny because that is a great long distance location as it is in a valley and the wind is very kind to shooters most of the time. They shot this series for the camera at a full size E silhouette and tagged it five out of five and they had about a 15" group. And the Sergeant gets my vote for honesty and integrity when he made the statement that he was surprised it was that good from a cold barrel.
Now any one who ever put on a military demo knows they had been out there every morning at the same time for a week prior checking zeros and getting it down pat for the big show and I suspect they had not been that lucky on several of those days haha. But they knew how to pick the conditions. The long range telephoto view showed just a faint trickle of mirage. The range flag was dead still and conditions were ideal for a Hollywood production.
Every year at Camp Perry when the Wimbledon, Leech Cups are fired if I am scoring I always scan the entire line to see just how many guys get in the 10 ring at 1000 yards on the first shot and out of a hundred shooters on line you will have one or two.
At Perry I have had two first shot Xs at 1000 yards since 1973.
The first time was 1975 when we were trying out for the US Palma Team Bi-Centennial Team and the wind was blowing to hell and gone. I was well up in the Palma contention list and the wind was blowing to hell and gone. It was low light and misting rain and I busted the first shot with a 308 and literally hit the X in the middle of the ring. I refused to believe it was my shot and I shot again and got a 10 fully expecting it to come up a miss and was basically praying it would be on paper. The Lord was very kind to me that day.
It happened again this year. I laid down with iron sights and had clicked up from a 900 yard zero I had here at home and lo and behold I had a cold clean bore first shot that came up a X at 8:00 about three inches in. I put in the next round and shot another X about four inches higher at 10:00.
Such luck will in all probability will never come my way again unless the Lord desires it.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Walgen45, I shoot 1000 yard F-Class and use a 308. Further more Its a 20 inch 308. I shoot 8 inch or better at this distance using Berger 155.5's. I am still supersonic at this range. While I admit a longer barrel would get me there quicker I am happy with my results. Even so I would not attemt hunting a deer or any animal at this distance for many reasons. If you only plan on shooting factory ammo; even "match ammo" you will never shoot 1MOA at a grand.
Walgen45, I shoot 1000 yard F-Class and use a 308. Further more Its a 20 inch 308. I shoot 8 inch or better at this distance using Berger 155.5's. I am still supersonic at this range. While I admit a longer barrel would get me there quicker I am happy with my results. Even so I would not attemt hunting a deer or any animal at this distance for many reasons. If you only plan on shooting factory ammo; even "match ammo" you will never shoot 1MOA at a grand.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Great story but this is where I'm going to get into another controversy.
You are talking about Palma-type shooting, with iron sights, jackets, slings and so on. The competition to which I refered is F-class, with scopes and bipods and targets 1/4 the size of the Palma targets. I believe the OP is talking about shooting his .308 with a scope and most probably a bipod or some other type of support for the longer ranges.
I am an afficionado of the History Channel and the Military Channel and I saw the program to which you refer. Here comes the controversial bit now. I thought that for a .338 Lapua that group was very ordinary, nothing to write home about, especially with guys who could have been practicing for many days before the filming, or even earlier that day.
In F-T/R with a .308, I have had at least one match this year that I remember clearly where my very first shot of the day was an X at 1000 yards. In the one I remember, the second shot was also an X and the first shot for record was a 10. I'd have to look at my notes to find others. I hate having an X as the first shot, because I have seen too many times when you get jinxed and your first shot for record is a 9 or worse. I remember getting an X as the first shot of the day a couple of time when I was shooting 1000 yards with a .223.
I can assure you that I am not alone in this, I have seen, scored or marked several F-class targets where the first shot is an X at 1000 yards for the first shot of the day.
It is more frequent as the first shot of a subsequent matches throughout the day.
The X-ring of an F-class target is 5 inches in diameter, the 10-ring is 10 inches and the 9-ring is 20 inches. With a .308, at 1000 yards I have had matches where my lowest score for the day was a 9 and that includes the sighters. When I do shoot an 8, it's a serious issue. The 8-ring is 30 inches in diameter.
This is not meant as a put down on your shooting, I am only comparing to the History Channel sequence you saw. They were not shooting a .308 nor were they shooting that .338 with iron sights. They had a superb rifle shooting a great LR cartridge and topped with a great scope and that's what they got at 1000 yards on their home range. If I look at some of the F-Open guys we have at our range and what they accomplish with their rifles on the small F-class target, it makes that sequence look pretty poor.
The bottom line is that it's all within different frames of reference. You look at it coming from iron sights and the Palma environment, I look at it from riflescopes and the F-class environment. That History Channel sequence is much closer to F-class than to Palma.
And by the way, I love the stories you tell and you tell them very well.
Great story but this is where I'm going to get into another controversy.
You are talking about Palma-type shooting, with iron sights, jackets, slings and so on. The competition to which I refered is F-class, with scopes and bipods and targets 1/4 the size of the Palma targets. I believe the OP is talking about shooting his .308 with a scope and most probably a bipod or some other type of support for the longer ranges.
I am an afficionado of the History Channel and the Military Channel and I saw the program to which you refer. Here comes the controversial bit now. I thought that for a .338 Lapua that group was very ordinary, nothing to write home about, especially with guys who could have been practicing for many days before the filming, or even earlier that day.
In F-T/R with a .308, I have had at least one match this year that I remember clearly where my very first shot of the day was an X at 1000 yards. In the one I remember, the second shot was also an X and the first shot for record was a 10. I'd have to look at my notes to find others. I hate having an X as the first shot, because I have seen too many times when you get jinxed and your first shot for record is a 9 or worse. I remember getting an X as the first shot of the day a couple of time when I was shooting 1000 yards with a .223.
I can assure you that I am not alone in this, I have seen, scored or marked several F-class targets where the first shot is an X at 1000 yards for the first shot of the day.
It is more frequent as the first shot of a subsequent matches throughout the day.
The X-ring of an F-class target is 5 inches in diameter, the 10-ring is 10 inches and the 9-ring is 20 inches. With a .308, at 1000 yards I have had matches where my lowest score for the day was a 9 and that includes the sighters. When I do shoot an 8, it's a serious issue. The 8-ring is 30 inches in diameter.
This is not meant as a put down on your shooting, I am only comparing to the History Channel sequence you saw. They were not shooting a .308 nor were they shooting that .338 with iron sights. They had a superb rifle shooting a great LR cartridge and topped with a great scope and that's what they got at 1000 yards on their home range. If I look at some of the F-Open guys we have at our range and what they accomplish with their rifles on the small F-class target, it makes that sequence look pretty poor.
The bottom line is that it's all within different frames of reference. You look at it coming from iron sights and the Palma environment, I look at it from riflescopes and the F-class environment. That History Channel sequence is much closer to F-class than to Palma.
And by the way, I love the stories you tell and you tell them very well.
Re: .308 1000 yards
SIG685. Absolutely I understand the difference. We also shoot scopes in any sight matches.
I full well know the Benning boys had a race rig and it was not a run of the mill M24 shooting M118 173 Match. The point of that part was to explain yes it can be achieved with the right equipment. They buy the best barrels, bullets, etc and they work at it very hard and still they had a ordinary group. It would have been interesting to see them continue on for another fifteen shots.
Even better shoot one shot every 30 minutes for 20 shots.
I also know they have put two guys on a plane and flew to England with a couple barreled actions just to test 22 ammo for their smallbore shooters and they hand select the best lots for their shooters. I once walked into the test shed at Benning and I counted 20 different lots of ammo of Eley Red and they had a 100 yard indoor range for the testing.
How many over the counter rifles have you ever seen that were F class quality that were not designed for F class. I fully understand there are factory F class guns made by Savage and ????but how many Remington 700, Ruger, Winchester, H&K, factory issue varmint guns have you seen that would run with your big guns?
F class without a doubt is the ultimate long range game and the biggest difference I guess is that there are not that many places you can shoot it. You guys are lucky out west as you have one big range for most of it. I often marvel at the open expanse for range potential out there.
The Lord blessed me with a range in the back yard. I have 900 yards on one range and 600 on another. If something ever happened I could extend mine to 1800 yards but the guy that owns it is on a different channel.
How many of your guys are shooting precision handloads and how many are buying ammo from Walmart.
How many are shooting 308? 6.5X284. Outside of Black Hills I am not aware of factory ammo for 6.5X284 though Fed Match is available for 308. How many guys shoot that?
Maybe you could explain to the new shooter your loading techniques and all the labor required to produce top flight ammo/scores and relate your chronograph results.
Tell him about bullet pull consistancy and how to achieve it.
Also talk about chambers on your guns as compared to SAAMI chambers for factory rounds such as 308. Is there a SAAMI drawing for 6.5X284?
Also he needs to know about shooting techniques and holds and scope powers you guys use and explain how the average guy would perform who gets down behind one of these rigs who has never shot one.
Also explain to him how your action was selected. Is it a factory unmodified or ????? What is the action of choice for F class these days? Barnard?
Explain to him how such actions are superior to what is available at Walmart or local sporting goods store.
Then give him the bottom line cost of getting into the F class game to run with the big dogs. How much is he going to spend to achieve his 10" groups and how long is he going to have to shoot to learn to read mirage, flags, and get the "feel".
I assume when you start walking out you hold over and don't click? Explain to him why this is done.
And finally how much do you guys spend a year on the F class game and what the initial set up costs are.
Guess we should direct him to http://www.sinclairintl.com/
You might as well give him the rest of the bad news. haha.
SIG685. Absolutely I understand the difference. We also shoot scopes in any sight matches.
I full well know the Benning boys had a race rig and it was not a run of the mill M24 shooting M118 173 Match. The point of that part was to explain yes it can be achieved with the right equipment. They buy the best barrels, bullets, etc and they work at it very hard and still they had a ordinary group. It would have been interesting to see them continue on for another fifteen shots.
Even better shoot one shot every 30 minutes for 20 shots.
I also know they have put two guys on a plane and flew to England with a couple barreled actions just to test 22 ammo for their smallbore shooters and they hand select the best lots for their shooters. I once walked into the test shed at Benning and I counted 20 different lots of ammo of Eley Red and they had a 100 yard indoor range for the testing.
How many over the counter rifles have you ever seen that were F class quality that were not designed for F class. I fully understand there are factory F class guns made by Savage and ????but how many Remington 700, Ruger, Winchester, H&K, factory issue varmint guns have you seen that would run with your big guns?
F class without a doubt is the ultimate long range game and the biggest difference I guess is that there are not that many places you can shoot it. You guys are lucky out west as you have one big range for most of it. I often marvel at the open expanse for range potential out there.
The Lord blessed me with a range in the back yard. I have 900 yards on one range and 600 on another. If something ever happened I could extend mine to 1800 yards but the guy that owns it is on a different channel.
How many of your guys are shooting precision handloads and how many are buying ammo from Walmart.
How many are shooting 308? 6.5X284. Outside of Black Hills I am not aware of factory ammo for 6.5X284 though Fed Match is available for 308. How many guys shoot that?
Maybe you could explain to the new shooter your loading techniques and all the labor required to produce top flight ammo/scores and relate your chronograph results.
Tell him about bullet pull consistancy and how to achieve it.
Also talk about chambers on your guns as compared to SAAMI chambers for factory rounds such as 308. Is there a SAAMI drawing for 6.5X284?
Also he needs to know about shooting techniques and holds and scope powers you guys use and explain how the average guy would perform who gets down behind one of these rigs who has never shot one.
Also explain to him how your action was selected. Is it a factory unmodified or ????? What is the action of choice for F class these days? Barnard?
Explain to him how such actions are superior to what is available at Walmart or local sporting goods store.
Then give him the bottom line cost of getting into the F class game to run with the big dogs. How much is he going to spend to achieve his 10" groups and how long is he going to have to shoot to learn to read mirage, flags, and get the "feel".
I assume when you start walking out you hold over and don't click? Explain to him why this is done.
And finally how much do you guys spend a year on the F class game and what the initial set up costs are.
Guess we should direct him to http://www.sinclairintl.com/
You might as well give him the rest of the bad news. haha.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Sig685. Im just north of Houston a bit and dont have a place to shoot out past 400. I am almost done with my load workup for my rifle(700VLS in 308) and want to work it out to 600 at least, 1000 if I can(baby steps) but dont really have anyone too teach me what Im doing wrong/right(people around here cant understand why I would want to shoot that far). You sound very knowledgeable and experienced, would you be willing to give me a little coaching one Saturday or Sunday if I came out to this range you speak of?
Sig685. Im just north of Houston a bit and dont have a place to shoot out past 400. I am almost done with my load workup for my rifle(700VLS in 308) and want to work it out to 600 at least, 1000 if I can(baby steps) but dont really have anyone too teach me what Im doing wrong/right(people around here cant understand why I would want to shoot that far). You sound very knowledgeable and experienced, would you be willing to give me a little coaching one Saturday or Sunday if I came out to this range you speak of?
Re: .308 1000 yards
Hummer, first of all, I want to thank you for making my point on this thread so effectively; at 1000 yards, equipment makes a difference. And as I said, enough of a difference that no amount of skill can overcome a lack of proper equipment.
But it is also critical to have the required skills to drive this equipment.
You asked a lot of question and raised many points. I can only speak of F-T/R as that is what I shoot. Some of us do .223 all the way to 1000 yards (I am one of them) and others do .308 (I am also one of them.) While F-Open does require a fairly large amount of money to be competitive, that is not quite the same with F-T/R. Savage does make a nice F-T/R rifle, and the Savage F-T/R team did VERY well with them at the World championship, one can also create a decent rig with a run of the mill action. What is critical for success is the barrel and the ammo. You would be surprised and would probably fall on your butt laughing if I gave you the details of my rigs. But guess what, they work; I am the weak link in the chain most times.
All the questions that you ask simply underline the fact you know what you are talking about, or at least you have the right questions, but there are many ways to skin a cat. But as Lone WolfUSMC said at the beginning of this thread, the OP needs to get a started rifle and learn to shoot LR.
I used to shoot Palma in the early 1980s and drifted to other disciplines including Service Rifle before coming to F-Class several years back. I was astounded at the accuracy that was being achieved in this discipline, so you can imagine how much I have enjoyed it and continue to do so.
Hummer, first of all, I want to thank you for making my point on this thread so effectively; at 1000 yards, equipment makes a difference. And as I said, enough of a difference that no amount of skill can overcome a lack of proper equipment.
But it is also critical to have the required skills to drive this equipment.
You asked a lot of question and raised many points. I can only speak of F-T/R as that is what I shoot. Some of us do .223 all the way to 1000 yards (I am one of them) and others do .308 (I am also one of them.) While F-Open does require a fairly large amount of money to be competitive, that is not quite the same with F-T/R. Savage does make a nice F-T/R rifle, and the Savage F-T/R team did VERY well with them at the World championship, one can also create a decent rig with a run of the mill action. What is critical for success is the barrel and the ammo. You would be surprised and would probably fall on your butt laughing if I gave you the details of my rigs. But guess what, they work; I am the weak link in the chain most times.
All the questions that you ask simply underline the fact you know what you are talking about, or at least you have the right questions, but there are many ways to skin a cat. But as Lone WolfUSMC said at the beginning of this thread, the OP needs to get a started rifle and learn to shoot LR.
I used to shoot Palma in the early 1980s and drifted to other disciplines including Service Rifle before coming to F-Class several years back. I was astounded at the accuracy that was being achieved in this discipline, so you can imagine how much I have enjoyed it and continue to do so.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McLarenRoss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sig685. Im just north of Houston a bit and dont have a place to shoot out past 400. I am almost done with my load workup for my rifle(700VLS in 308) and want to work it out to 600 at least, 1000 if I can(baby steps) but dont really have anyone too teach me what Im doing wrong/right(people around here cant understand why I would want to shoot that far). You sound very knowledgeable and experienced, would you be willing to give me a little coaching one Saturday or Sunday if I came out to this range you speak of? </div></div>
I am answering publicly here so people will not think I am ignoring you. But this would be better in a PM.
For the record, I know where Shepherd is, and if that's really where you live it's more than just a bit north of Houston. There is only one way to learn how to do this and that's to come and shoot. The next match is a 1000 yard match on December 6th and the next 600 yard match (you just missed one last weekend,) is December 20th. You can PM me the details of your rifle, but really all you need to do is show up at a match by 7:30AM, with your rifle, scope, bipod and bags, 75 rounds of ammo (some spare) and $20. Tell me the load you are using and where your current zero is, I will give you the come-ups you need for 600. If you have the proper scope set up, I can give you the 1000 yard come-ups also; just make sure you are not using 168gr SMK for 1000 yards. (They are excellent for 600.)
I am not a coach, by any means and I do not even play one on TV, but I love to argue in forums. When I shoot, the last thing I want to do is worry about someone else. There are people there to help you get on target if you have difficulty, but I and several others there, will be happy to bend your ears with all sorts of data, before and after each match. We love to talk shooting and we always welcome new shooters.
Oh, and what do you mean by "almost done with your load workup?" Maybe we need to talk before you finish that part. When you are ready to talk, PM me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McLarenRoss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sig685. Im just north of Houston a bit and dont have a place to shoot out past 400. I am almost done with my load workup for my rifle(700VLS in 308) and want to work it out to 600 at least, 1000 if I can(baby steps) but dont really have anyone too teach me what Im doing wrong/right(people around here cant understand why I would want to shoot that far). You sound very knowledgeable and experienced, would you be willing to give me a little coaching one Saturday or Sunday if I came out to this range you speak of? </div></div>
I am answering publicly here so people will not think I am ignoring you. But this would be better in a PM.
For the record, I know where Shepherd is, and if that's really where you live it's more than just a bit north of Houston. There is only one way to learn how to do this and that's to come and shoot. The next match is a 1000 yard match on December 6th and the next 600 yard match (you just missed one last weekend,) is December 20th. You can PM me the details of your rifle, but really all you need to do is show up at a match by 7:30AM, with your rifle, scope, bipod and bags, 75 rounds of ammo (some spare) and $20. Tell me the load you are using and where your current zero is, I will give you the come-ups you need for 600. If you have the proper scope set up, I can give you the 1000 yard come-ups also; just make sure you are not using 168gr SMK for 1000 yards. (They are excellent for 600.)
I am not a coach, by any means and I do not even play one on TV, but I love to argue in forums. When I shoot, the last thing I want to do is worry about someone else. There are people there to help you get on target if you have difficulty, but I and several others there, will be happy to bend your ears with all sorts of data, before and after each match. We love to talk shooting and we always welcome new shooters.
Oh, and what do you mean by "almost done with your load workup?" Maybe we need to talk before you finish that part. When you are ready to talk, PM me.
Re: .308 1000 yards
I would be interested in details of everything. I saw a guy win the Wimbledon one year with a 1917 Enfield opened up to magnum and he only had one action screw. It was built by Creighton Audette and somehow the second action screw got lost and they glued it in and he won with it. So your rig can't be worse than that and he won with it.
I am always interested in learning load techniques to establish uniform neck tension. Even if you have to PM me.
As a funny story the Secret Service guys wanted me to shoot one of their LH rigs one year in Wimbledon and everything was doing fine. Rifle was holding about 6" of elevation at 1000 and all of a sudden I pulled the trigger and I had no rifle in my hands.
Believe me such an event as this will adle you quickly. I am laying there trying to figure out if I was dead, the rifle blew up or what. Finally I got my senses about me and saw the rifle about five feet in front of the firing line. Line officers were all around me. I couldn't go forward to get it and had to take misses the last several record shots.
I got up and walked back to the assembly area and the SS guys were all up wondering what happened. When the match ended we went out and picked it up and determined what happened.
Anybody want to guess what happened?
I would be interested in details of everything. I saw a guy win the Wimbledon one year with a 1917 Enfield opened up to magnum and he only had one action screw. It was built by Creighton Audette and somehow the second action screw got lost and they glued it in and he won with it. So your rig can't be worse than that and he won with it.
I am always interested in learning load techniques to establish uniform neck tension. Even if you have to PM me.
As a funny story the Secret Service guys wanted me to shoot one of their LH rigs one year in Wimbledon and everything was doing fine. Rifle was holding about 6" of elevation at 1000 and all of a sudden I pulled the trigger and I had no rifle in my hands.
Believe me such an event as this will adle you quickly. I am laying there trying to figure out if I was dead, the rifle blew up or what. Finally I got my senses about me and saw the rifle about five feet in front of the firing line. Line officers were all around me. I couldn't go forward to get it and had to take misses the last several record shots.
I got up and walked back to the assembly area and the SS guys were all up wondering what happened. When the match ended we went out and picked it up and determined what happened.
Anybody want to guess what happened?
Re: .308 1000 yards
My gun is a Remington 700 VLS in 308. Ive had the barrel cut to 20" and threaded and a brake installed. My load right now is 43.1gr of Varget under a 155 A-max with CCI200s in WCC cases. I havent shot it past 100 yet so i dunno what it does out there but at 100 its decent. Its averaging 0.75" with some at 0.50" and a few at 1.0". My chrony says the loads right at 2600fps. A little slower than i would like but its what the rifle likes. I still want to try Reloader 15 with these A-max's and Varget and Reloader with the 155 Scenars.
P.S. What happened??
My gun is a Remington 700 VLS in 308. Ive had the barrel cut to 20" and threaded and a brake installed. My load right now is 43.1gr of Varget under a 155 A-max with CCI200s in WCC cases. I havent shot it past 100 yet so i dunno what it does out there but at 100 its decent. Its averaging 0.75" with some at 0.50" and a few at 1.0". My chrony says the loads right at 2600fps. A little slower than i would like but its what the rifle likes. I still want to try Reloader 15 with these A-max's and Varget and Reloader with the 155 Scenars.
P.S. What happened??
Re: .308 1000 yards
What happened that caused the rifle to come to rest five feet in front of the firing line and I am laying there in the prone position with arms in shooting position but with no rifle.
What happened that caused the rifle to come to rest five feet in front of the firing line and I am laying there in the prone position with arms in shooting position but with no rifle.
Re: .308 1000 yards
No idea. What happened?? Dunno why it would go forward.
No idea. What happened?? Dunno why it would go forward.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Everyone knows USSS rifles do that.
Everyone knows USSS rifles do that.
Re: .308 1000 yards
A really good muzzle break? A springy recoil pad?
Sig, don't forget to mention it sometimes helps to shoot really fast.
A really good muzzle break? A springy recoil pad?
Sig, don't forget to mention it sometimes helps to shoot really fast.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A really good muzzle break? A springy recoil pad?
Sig, don't forget to mention it sometimes helps to shoot really fast. </div></div>
I won't and please help me out here. (BTW, we really miss you at Bayou.)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A really good muzzle break? A springy recoil pad?
Sig, don't forget to mention it sometimes helps to shoot really fast. </div></div>
I won't and please help me out here. (BTW, we really miss you at Bayou.)
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McLarenRoss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My gun is a Remington 700 VLS in 308. Ive had the barrel cut to 20" and threaded and a brake installed. My load right now is 43.1gr of Varget under a 155 A-max with CCI200s in WCC cases. I havent shot it past 100 yet so i dunno what it does out there but at 100 its decent. Its averaging 0.75" with some at 0.50" and a few at 1.0". My chrony says the loads right at 2600fps. A little slower than i would like but its what the rifle likes. I still want to try Reloader 15 with these A-max's and Varget and Reloader with the 155 Scenars.
P.S. What happened?? </div></div>
First off, no muzzle brakes allowed in NRA competition, so take that thing off. Sorry.
Next, I'm not sure why you cut the barrel down, but it's counterproductive for LR shooting, especially at sea level or just above. My .308 barrel is 32 inches long.
Continuing on; 43.1gr of Varget is very light for LR. I shoot 180gr bullets and my load is heavier than yours. At 600 yards, you will deal with the wind, at 1000 yards, you will be positively figthing with the wind. The 155gr bullet needs to go VERY fast to make up for its lower BC. There are superb F-T/R shooters here who use this bullet, but their velocity is around 3000FPS, a combination of long barrel and heavy charge. I push my 180gr bullets at 2840FPS.
You can play around with various powders and bullets all you want; my suggest is pick a combo and just tune it to the highest velocity you can get out of your 20 inch barrel. BTW, what contour is your barrel?
I will be answering your other questions in yout PM with a PM of my own, either tonight or tomorrow morning.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McLarenRoss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My gun is a Remington 700 VLS in 308. Ive had the barrel cut to 20" and threaded and a brake installed. My load right now is 43.1gr of Varget under a 155 A-max with CCI200s in WCC cases. I havent shot it past 100 yet so i dunno what it does out there but at 100 its decent. Its averaging 0.75" with some at 0.50" and a few at 1.0". My chrony says the loads right at 2600fps. A little slower than i would like but its what the rifle likes. I still want to try Reloader 15 with these A-max's and Varget and Reloader with the 155 Scenars.
P.S. What happened?? </div></div>
First off, no muzzle brakes allowed in NRA competition, so take that thing off. Sorry.
Next, I'm not sure why you cut the barrel down, but it's counterproductive for LR shooting, especially at sea level or just above. My .308 barrel is 32 inches long.
Continuing on; 43.1gr of Varget is very light for LR. I shoot 180gr bullets and my load is heavier than yours. At 600 yards, you will deal with the wind, at 1000 yards, you will be positively figthing with the wind. The 155gr bullet needs to go VERY fast to make up for its lower BC. There are superb F-T/R shooters here who use this bullet, but their velocity is around 3000FPS, a combination of long barrel and heavy charge. I push my 180gr bullets at 2840FPS.
You can play around with various powders and bullets all you want; my suggest is pick a combo and just tune it to the highest velocity you can get out of your 20 inch barrel. BTW, what contour is your barrel?
I will be answering your other questions in yout PM with a PM of my own, either tonight or tomorrow morning.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be interested in details of everything. I saw a guy win the Wimbledon one year with a 1917 Enfield opened up to magnum and he only had one action screw. It was built by Creighton Audette and somehow the second action screw got lost and they glued it in and he won with it. So your rig can't be worse than that and he won with it.
I am always interested in learning load techniques to establish uniform neck tension. Even if you have to PM me.
(snip the funny story.)</div></div>
My rig is just an ordinary run of the mill rifle on which I got an extraordinary barrel mounted and fitted. I've had the rifle for 25+ years and have worked with it over the years. putting on a new stock (Boyds laminate,) which I finished myself (it shows.) I have a Timney trigger installed on it and mounted a Weaver scope to make weight because of the barrel and the Sinclair bipod. (Yes, I am very familiar with Sinclairintl.com.)
The barrel is a Broughton in a 7b countour and as I indicated, it's at 32 inches long. It's not quite a truck axle like Dgosnell's F-open barrel, but it's quite heavy. A local gunsmith and fellow shooter at the club mounted the barrel on my action and he did a superb job. My philosophy of LR is that the barrel is critical; you can make up for most anything else on the rifle, as long as the scope is powerful enough and does not lose its setting. Also, the barrel has to be able to endure the rapid rate of fire that some of us F-class shooters can produce and that means a quality heavy barrel. We have developed some umorthodox techniques to cool the barrel down between matches in the summer time. But whatever works to help the barrel. On my rifle the most expensive component is the barrel, and after that it's the Weaver scope. All up, including scope and gunsmithing work, I would say the rig is less than $1,600. I will say that I very much like the Savage FTR and I think that's a great way to get started very quickly in F-T/R competition and actually be very competitive, out of the box. Most anything else requires work, especially for 1000 yards.
Let's talk ammo. Ammo is also critical for LR; you need a great barrel flinging superb bullets very fast and very consistently. In my case, so far I have been using the 180gr JLK bullets in Lapua cases with Varget powder and Winchester WLR primers. There are many other combinations of bullets, powder and primers that people use and use very well, but everyone seems to agree on Lapua cases for their consistency. Whoops, there's that c word again, consistency. This is critical in LR match ammo. Miss a step and suffer the consequences, as I discovered to my great dismay recently. However, when I do everything that I am supposed to do, I can produce world-class .308 ammo that allow me to compete at 1000 yards, and be competitive. I've been reloading for decades, but it's only been in the last 3-4 years where I've had to totally review and refine my handloading technique, step by step. It has to be simple, consistent, and measurable and consistent. Did I mention consistent? From case preparation to bullet seating and final quality control, everything has to be done the same consistent way. Because I travel a great deal for work, I am sometimes caught short in loaded ammo for a match, so I always have multiple batches of ammo in play. This is why consistency in handloading is critical here. I use tools that I think are excellent and yet very usable and efficient such as Redding competition seating dies and S bushing dies, RCBS Chargemaster, etc. I have an old single stage press, that works perfectly for me, just no need to upgrade it.
I have a tendency to measure and remeasure and measure again. For instance, it took me about 30 sample cases to decide on the appropriate bushing size for the Lapua brass so that my neck tension is uniform. It took about 2 hours to set the sizing die in my press to the exact position so that the shoulder got bumped back the exact amount I wanted. I have all manners of calipers, comparators and guages for such things. But once it's set, then everything goes smoothly.
So Hummer, yes, there is a lot to consider and do to be competitive in F-class, and one day I hope that everything will fall together and I can achieve a great score. The journey never ends.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be interested in details of everything. I saw a guy win the Wimbledon one year with a 1917 Enfield opened up to magnum and he only had one action screw. It was built by Creighton Audette and somehow the second action screw got lost and they glued it in and he won with it. So your rig can't be worse than that and he won with it.
I am always interested in learning load techniques to establish uniform neck tension. Even if you have to PM me.
(snip the funny story.)</div></div>
My rig is just an ordinary run of the mill rifle on which I got an extraordinary barrel mounted and fitted. I've had the rifle for 25+ years and have worked with it over the years. putting on a new stock (Boyds laminate,) which I finished myself (it shows.) I have a Timney trigger installed on it and mounted a Weaver scope to make weight because of the barrel and the Sinclair bipod. (Yes, I am very familiar with Sinclairintl.com.)
The barrel is a Broughton in a 7b countour and as I indicated, it's at 32 inches long. It's not quite a truck axle like Dgosnell's F-open barrel, but it's quite heavy. A local gunsmith and fellow shooter at the club mounted the barrel on my action and he did a superb job. My philosophy of LR is that the barrel is critical; you can make up for most anything else on the rifle, as long as the scope is powerful enough and does not lose its setting. Also, the barrel has to be able to endure the rapid rate of fire that some of us F-class shooters can produce and that means a quality heavy barrel. We have developed some umorthodox techniques to cool the barrel down between matches in the summer time. But whatever works to help the barrel. On my rifle the most expensive component is the barrel, and after that it's the Weaver scope. All up, including scope and gunsmithing work, I would say the rig is less than $1,600. I will say that I very much like the Savage FTR and I think that's a great way to get started very quickly in F-T/R competition and actually be very competitive, out of the box. Most anything else requires work, especially for 1000 yards.
Let's talk ammo. Ammo is also critical for LR; you need a great barrel flinging superb bullets very fast and very consistently. In my case, so far I have been using the 180gr JLK bullets in Lapua cases with Varget powder and Winchester WLR primers. There are many other combinations of bullets, powder and primers that people use and use very well, but everyone seems to agree on Lapua cases for their consistency. Whoops, there's that c word again, consistency. This is critical in LR match ammo. Miss a step and suffer the consequences, as I discovered to my great dismay recently. However, when I do everything that I am supposed to do, I can produce world-class .308 ammo that allow me to compete at 1000 yards, and be competitive. I've been reloading for decades, but it's only been in the last 3-4 years where I've had to totally review and refine my handloading technique, step by step. It has to be simple, consistent, and measurable and consistent. Did I mention consistent? From case preparation to bullet seating and final quality control, everything has to be done the same consistent way. Because I travel a great deal for work, I am sometimes caught short in loaded ammo for a match, so I always have multiple batches of ammo in play. This is why consistency in handloading is critical here. I use tools that I think are excellent and yet very usable and efficient such as Redding competition seating dies and S bushing dies, RCBS Chargemaster, etc. I have an old single stage press, that works perfectly for me, just no need to upgrade it.
I have a tendency to measure and remeasure and measure again. For instance, it took me about 30 sample cases to decide on the appropriate bushing size for the Lapua brass so that my neck tension is uniform. It took about 2 hours to set the sizing die in my press to the exact position so that the shoulder got bumped back the exact amount I wanted. I have all manners of calipers, comparators and guages for such things. But once it's set, then everything goes smoothly.
So Hummer, yes, there is a lot to consider and do to be competitive in F-class, and one day I hope that everything will fall together and I can achieve a great score. The journey never ends.
Re: .308 1000 yards
The barrel currently is the factory varmint contour. I had it cut back cause 1000 yards isnt really what i wanted this rifle to do, 600 at most, so 20" was fine. I know the brake has to come off for FT/R. Thats ok.
My velocities are one reason Im working with some more powders and components. I had these 155 A-maxs at 2900 with IMR-4895 but the gun wouldnt do better than 1.5" with any load I tried of it, and it liked the hotter 4895 loads better. Im gonna buy some 155 SMK Palmas and 155 Lapua Scenars and try them as well as some RL15.
The barrel currently is the factory varmint contour. I had it cut back cause 1000 yards isnt really what i wanted this rifle to do, 600 at most, so 20" was fine. I know the brake has to come off for FT/R. Thats ok.
My velocities are one reason Im working with some more powders and components. I had these 155 A-maxs at 2900 with IMR-4895 but the gun wouldnt do better than 1.5" with any load I tried of it, and it liked the hotter 4895 loads better. Im gonna buy some 155 SMK Palmas and 155 Lapua Scenars and try them as well as some RL15.
Re: .308 1000 yards
SIG685, I shoot No 7 contour but not familiar with 7B. Longer cylinder section in front of action?
Yep the barrel is the heart of the game followed by what it is fed.
Is Broughton buttoned, hooked, broached?
I assume you have a tight neck and are neck turning and stress relieving. Are you shelf seating? If so by cutting or expanding?
How much tension on the bullets 1/2 thou or less?
Are you floating the size die?
FL die with bushing, how much body reduction. On 308 my reamers they cut a .4685/.469 body dim for LC cases. Necks on my reamers run .336,.339,.3405,.344 I have one jumbo reamer (SAAMI).
I assume you are using big Sinclair bipod.
Laminated stock? Factory wood? Pillars? Torque on action screws?
Tube stock?
Seating in the lands or just off? How far?
I use Wilson seaters and arbor presses for seating long range stuff.
Ever measure bullet pull? How much pull do you like and how much variation do you allow?
SD less that 4? How big a sample?
Clean every string? Or how many rounds?
Use internal neck lube? What?
Use external bullet lube? What?
Polish case necks internally? Mine have mirror finish.
How do you clean brass?
.001"shoulder bump on sizer?
Do you use a MO Gage to adjust sizer?
I assume you are sizing and not using expander button at all?
Obviously you are uniforming flash holes and you don't have to worry about off center flash holes with Lapua. Least ways the Lapua I have seen have all been centered.
The times I won the Palma Trophy I used Lapua but heads were so soft in 30.06 it was a one time loading and they wouldn't hold a primer.
The hardness gradient requirement on NATO cases must be in effect for their 7.62, it sure didn't appear to be on 30.06 cases.
ll deg crown on Broughton?
Who made your reamer? How much freebore? Neck dimension? Throat angle 1 degree?
Will fired cases still hold a bullet with case neck unsized?
How much copper indent?
Is your striker indent dead center on the primers?
Now for the other question about what happened, no muzzle brake (as indicated not permitted) and no spongy recoil pad and no flubber. Come on guys, gotta be some exspurts out there that has had this happen or seen it happen. I have had it happen perhaps twice and seen it happen a couple times. The embarrassing part is everyone saw the rifle laying way out in front of firing line.
SIG685, I shoot No 7 contour but not familiar with 7B. Longer cylinder section in front of action?
Yep the barrel is the heart of the game followed by what it is fed.
Is Broughton buttoned, hooked, broached?
I assume you have a tight neck and are neck turning and stress relieving. Are you shelf seating? If so by cutting or expanding?
How much tension on the bullets 1/2 thou or less?
Are you floating the size die?
FL die with bushing, how much body reduction. On 308 my reamers they cut a .4685/.469 body dim for LC cases. Necks on my reamers run .336,.339,.3405,.344 I have one jumbo reamer (SAAMI).
I assume you are using big Sinclair bipod.
Laminated stock? Factory wood? Pillars? Torque on action screws?
Tube stock?
Seating in the lands or just off? How far?
I use Wilson seaters and arbor presses for seating long range stuff.
Ever measure bullet pull? How much pull do you like and how much variation do you allow?
SD less that 4? How big a sample?
Clean every string? Or how many rounds?
Use internal neck lube? What?
Use external bullet lube? What?
Polish case necks internally? Mine have mirror finish.
How do you clean brass?
.001"shoulder bump on sizer?
Do you use a MO Gage to adjust sizer?
I assume you are sizing and not using expander button at all?
Obviously you are uniforming flash holes and you don't have to worry about off center flash holes with Lapua. Least ways the Lapua I have seen have all been centered.
The times I won the Palma Trophy I used Lapua but heads were so soft in 30.06 it was a one time loading and they wouldn't hold a primer.
The hardness gradient requirement on NATO cases must be in effect for their 7.62, it sure didn't appear to be on 30.06 cases.
ll deg crown on Broughton?
Who made your reamer? How much freebore? Neck dimension? Throat angle 1 degree?
Will fired cases still hold a bullet with case neck unsized?
How much copper indent?
Is your striker indent dead center on the primers?
Now for the other question about what happened, no muzzle brake (as indicated not permitted) and no spongy recoil pad and no flubber. Come on guys, gotta be some exspurts out there that has had this happen or seen it happen. I have had it happen perhaps twice and seen it happen a couple times. The embarrassing part is everyone saw the rifle laying way out in front of firing line.
Re: .308 1000 yards
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SIG685, I shoot No 7 contour but not familiar with 7B. Longer cylinder section in front of action?
Yep the barrel is the heart of the game followed by what it is fed.
Is Broughton buttoned, hooked, broached?</div></div>
It was late last night when I answered and I made a mistake. The contour is the 7.9B and you can get the specs at Broughton's site, www.rifle-barrel.net/barrels.html The barrel I got is buttoned in what is called a 5C rifling and the twist is 1:11.25.
The cylinder section is 6 inches which will allow me to rebore later on as the throat erodes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I assume you have a tight neck and are neck turning and stress relieving. Are you shelf seating? If so by cutting or expanding?</div></div>
The neck is tight, I am not neck turning or stress relieving beyond the occasional Gin and Tonic. I'm sorry, I have no clue what you mean by "shelf seating", perhaps I know it under another name,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much tension on the bullets 1/2 thou or less?</div></div> Right at 1 thousand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you floating the size die?</div></div> No, but I do let the neck bushing float.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FL die with bushing, how much body reduction. On 308 my reamers they cut a .4685/.469 body dim for LC cases. Necks on my reamers run .336,.339,.3405,.344 I have one jumbo reamer (SAAMI).</div></div>
Again, no magic here, I use a small base Redding full length bushing die.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume you are using big Sinclair bipod.</div></div>
That is a good assumption, yes I have the silver model for heat reflection in summertime. I've been using it now for 18 months.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Laminated stock? Factory wood? Pillars? Torque on action screws?
Tube stock?</div></div>
The stock is laminated, it is a Boyds Target/Varmint stock that has now been discontinued. The barrel is free floated from 3 inches forward of the bedded action.
[qhote]Seating in the lands or just off? How far?[/quote]
I seat the bullets 0.010 into the lands.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use Wilson seaters and arbor presses for seating long range stuff.</div></div>
Redding for me in my old single stage press, I have measured the runout several times, it's minimal, when it is even measurable.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever measure bullet pull? How much pull do you like and how much variation do you allow?</div></div>
No.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SD less that 4? How big a sample?</div></div>
Last time I measured the SD it was in the single digits. I'm not a slave to the chronometer, I am more concerned with the groups at long distance. I was studying my target at the last 600 yard match and there was no vertical dispersion to speak of, the group had horizontal dispersion only.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clean every string? Or how many rounds?</div></div>
I used to clean after each match (66 rounds), but now I have stopped that and will consider cleaning again in a few matches. In my .223 LR rifle, I would go about 6 matches before a quick cleaning. The barrels are so smooth there is simply not copper accumulation to speak of. Still learning about the Broughton, accumulating information.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use internal neck lube? What?</div></div>No.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use external bullet lube? What?</div></div>Moly on the .223, but none on .308.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Polish case necks internally? Mine have mirror finish.</div></div> No. I can't get my hand to fin in there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you clean brass?</div></div>
Lyman vibrator with walnut and activator. Cases just do not get dirty in the bolt rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.001"shoulder bump on sizer?</div></div> Yes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you use a MO Gage to adjust sizer?</div></div>I use a Stoney Point comparator measuring my fired cases and comparing to resized cases.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume you are sizing and not using expander button at all?</div></div>
Correct, my expander buttons are for sale on eBay. I do have mandrels in case a mouth is out of round. I treat my brass very gingerly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously you are uniforming flash holes and you don't have to worry about off center flash holes with Lapua. Least ways the Lapua I have seen have all been centered.</div></div>
I do not even uniform flash holes in Lapua. I do when I use Winchester or LC.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The times I won the Palma Trophy I used Lapua but heads were so soft in 30.06 it was a one time loading and they wouldn't hold a primer.</div></div> I have Lapua cases with 5 loadings and still going strong. There was a nice study on .308 cases earlier this year in a magazine somewhere. They liked Lapua but recommended Winchester for cost/benefit purposes. I still prefer Lapua as LR is not really a cost/benefit thing, if you know what I mean.
[quoteThe hardness gradient requirement on NATO cases must be in effect for their 7.62, it sure didn't appear to be on 30.06 cases.
ll deg crown on Broughton? [/quote]
No, it's a recessed crown.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who made your reamer? How much freebore? Neck dimension? Throat angle 1 degree?
Will fired cases still hold a bullet with case neck unsized?</div></div>
Not reliably, which is why I need to resize the neck, but it's very little.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much copper indent?
Is your striker indent dead center on the primers?</div></div>
It's smack in the middle. The bolt face had a bushing installed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now for the other question about what happened, no muzzle brake (as indicated not permitted) and no spongy recoil pad and no flubber. Come on guys, gotta be some exspurts out there that has had this happen or seen it happen. I have had it happen perhaps twice and seen it happen a couple times. The embarrassing part is everyone saw the rifle laying way out in front of firing line. </div></div>
I think you threw the rifle away because it shot so poorly. Or maybe it had a rocket assisted recoil compensating system that was thrown off quilter when the gyro-mounted spatial analyzer detected that you were holding the rifle incorrect;y and it activated the on-board GPS-guided flux capacitor to place the rifle out of (your) arms way.
Did I win?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SIG685, I shoot No 7 contour but not familiar with 7B. Longer cylinder section in front of action?
Yep the barrel is the heart of the game followed by what it is fed.
Is Broughton buttoned, hooked, broached?</div></div>
It was late last night when I answered and I made a mistake. The contour is the 7.9B and you can get the specs at Broughton's site, www.rifle-barrel.net/barrels.html The barrel I got is buttoned in what is called a 5C rifling and the twist is 1:11.25.
The cylinder section is 6 inches which will allow me to rebore later on as the throat erodes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I assume you have a tight neck and are neck turning and stress relieving. Are you shelf seating? If so by cutting or expanding?</div></div>
The neck is tight, I am not neck turning or stress relieving beyond the occasional Gin and Tonic. I'm sorry, I have no clue what you mean by "shelf seating", perhaps I know it under another name,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much tension on the bullets 1/2 thou or less?</div></div> Right at 1 thousand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you floating the size die?</div></div> No, but I do let the neck bushing float.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FL die with bushing, how much body reduction. On 308 my reamers they cut a .4685/.469 body dim for LC cases. Necks on my reamers run .336,.339,.3405,.344 I have one jumbo reamer (SAAMI).</div></div>
Again, no magic here, I use a small base Redding full length bushing die.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume you are using big Sinclair bipod.</div></div>
That is a good assumption, yes I have the silver model for heat reflection in summertime. I've been using it now for 18 months.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Laminated stock? Factory wood? Pillars? Torque on action screws?
Tube stock?</div></div>
The stock is laminated, it is a Boyds Target/Varmint stock that has now been discontinued. The barrel is free floated from 3 inches forward of the bedded action.
[qhote]Seating in the lands or just off? How far?[/quote]
I seat the bullets 0.010 into the lands.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use Wilson seaters and arbor presses for seating long range stuff.</div></div>
Redding for me in my old single stage press, I have measured the runout several times, it's minimal, when it is even measurable.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever measure bullet pull? How much pull do you like and how much variation do you allow?</div></div>
No.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SD less that 4? How big a sample?</div></div>
Last time I measured the SD it was in the single digits. I'm not a slave to the chronometer, I am more concerned with the groups at long distance. I was studying my target at the last 600 yard match and there was no vertical dispersion to speak of, the group had horizontal dispersion only.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clean every string? Or how many rounds?</div></div>
I used to clean after each match (66 rounds), but now I have stopped that and will consider cleaning again in a few matches. In my .223 LR rifle, I would go about 6 matches before a quick cleaning. The barrels are so smooth there is simply not copper accumulation to speak of. Still learning about the Broughton, accumulating information.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use internal neck lube? What?</div></div>No.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use external bullet lube? What?</div></div>Moly on the .223, but none on .308.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Polish case necks internally? Mine have mirror finish.</div></div> No. I can't get my hand to fin in there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you clean brass?</div></div>
Lyman vibrator with walnut and activator. Cases just do not get dirty in the bolt rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.001"shoulder bump on sizer?</div></div> Yes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you use a MO Gage to adjust sizer?</div></div>I use a Stoney Point comparator measuring my fired cases and comparing to resized cases.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I assume you are sizing and not using expander button at all?</div></div>
Correct, my expander buttons are for sale on eBay. I do have mandrels in case a mouth is out of round. I treat my brass very gingerly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously you are uniforming flash holes and you don't have to worry about off center flash holes with Lapua. Least ways the Lapua I have seen have all been centered.</div></div>
I do not even uniform flash holes in Lapua. I do when I use Winchester or LC.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The times I won the Palma Trophy I used Lapua but heads were so soft in 30.06 it was a one time loading and they wouldn't hold a primer.</div></div> I have Lapua cases with 5 loadings and still going strong. There was a nice study on .308 cases earlier this year in a magazine somewhere. They liked Lapua but recommended Winchester for cost/benefit purposes. I still prefer Lapua as LR is not really a cost/benefit thing, if you know what I mean.
[quoteThe hardness gradient requirement on NATO cases must be in effect for their 7.62, it sure didn't appear to be on 30.06 cases.
ll deg crown on Broughton? [/quote]
No, it's a recessed crown.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who made your reamer? How much freebore? Neck dimension? Throat angle 1 degree?
Will fired cases still hold a bullet with case neck unsized?</div></div>
Not reliably, which is why I need to resize the neck, but it's very little.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much copper indent?
Is your striker indent dead center on the primers?</div></div>
It's smack in the middle. The bolt face had a bushing installed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now for the other question about what happened, no muzzle brake (as indicated not permitted) and no spongy recoil pad and no flubber. Come on guys, gotta be some exspurts out there that has had this happen or seen it happen. I have had it happen perhaps twice and seen it happen a couple times. The embarrassing part is everyone saw the rifle laying way out in front of firing line. </div></div>
I think you threw the rifle away because it shot so poorly. Or maybe it had a rocket assisted recoil compensating system that was thrown off quilter when the gyro-mounted spatial analyzer detected that you were holding the rifle incorrect;y and it activated the on-board GPS-guided flux capacitor to place the rifle out of (your) arms way.
Did I win?
Re: .308 1000 yards
No you didn't win but that excuse will sound good to some that read it haha.
Shelf seating. Partially turn neck about 2/3rds way down and stop. Fire the case and that sets up a shelf so the bullet will just slide in neck and sit on the shelf that is formed when the upper section blows out and leaves a little shelf left. No grip on the bullet at all and throat aligns bullet.
Floating bushing sounds interesting. Did you open die up or order bushing undersize?
Try seating tension about 3/10s. Just enough that you can't turn 308 with fingers.
Personally I think you are making a big mistake by not cleaning often. Here is the rationale. Several years ago I got to wondering just why we only get about 4000 rounds on a match rifle and the ammo acceptance barrels used to test 7.62 at 600 yards hold up 15 to 17K. Both are 4140 but one lasts longer than the other so I thought long and hard and it finally dawned on me. The only differences between a match barrel and an ammo acceptance barrel is the way they are shot and they way they are cleaned.
NATO ammo acceptance is conducted using three barreled rifles (same as was sold by CMP a couple years back which were on 03 actions). Rifle one is clamped into an FA mount and one round is fired at 600 yards. Guy in pit tells the gunner where he hit and the gunner adjusts to get shots in middle of target. Usually takes two to four shots. Once the rifle is printing center the pit man radios back and tells him he is good to go.
The gunner loads five rounds in mag and has five loose rounds in left hand. At the same time the pit man pulls and pastes up the target and runs it back up. The gunner gets off those ten rounds as fast as he can operate the bolt and the second five are dropped in individually. A good gunner will get off ten rounds in 15 seconds or so. Pit man pulls the target and measures the group and assuming the first group is within spec he radios good. While the pit man is changing target the gunner takes gun out of FA mount and records the number of rounds fired in the gun log.
He places the second rifle in and repeats test. Ammo must deliver acceptable groups from all three guns.
Before the next lot of ammo is fired those guns go back for scrubbing/cleaning. No ammo testing is done with barrel having propellant residue which is carbon basically. Think of it this way carbon when it gets cold becomes hard. What is put in steel to make it hard? Carbon. What is hardest tool bit made? Carbide.
Look at expander buttons on dies used to decap fired brass. There are small lines on the expander button and corresponding lines on the inside of the case necks. OK brass is not hard enough to score hardened steel expander balls right? So that leaves the carbon left in the case neck to embed in the expander ball.
To prove this about four years back I took two new rifles, a 700 Rem and 70 Winchester. I dedicated 50 rounds for each and started with the 700 in 308. I shot it and cleaned it every 12 rounds for the first 50 rounds, came in and reloaded the ammo immediately. I also borescoped the throat. Normally throat marks are gone in new 30 cal barrels at between 100 and 150 rounds.
Next I went to 25 round strings shot at one minute intervals. This took barrel temp (at muzzle) to around 122F) shooting at 60 second intervals.
I continued testing and the reamer marks remained in the throat so about 600 rounds I did a sustained fire test for 30 rounds firing one every 30 seconds. This took barrel temp to 160F. I had detectable movement on erosion gage here.
Next test was 30 rounds at 15 second intervals and barrel temp went to 190F. Again with more gage movement.
Even with this I still had reamer marks in throat. I cleaned just as soon as I quit firing and had a sloppy wet patch of ER down barrel within seconds of last shot.
I went back to 22 round strings and reamer marks disappeared at 900 rounds. At 1004 rounds I pulled it. Remington barrels are known to be quite soft but I decreased initial wear by 600%.
Started next rifle which was 70 and in 30.06. Stopped at 550 rounds as the throat wear duplicated what I was getting in the 700.
So bottom line is LC, FA barrels saw nothing but rapid fire and lasted 15+k and were cleaned frequently and well.
Thus I had the data confirmed by borescope and erosion gage that frequent cleaning should extend barrel life tremendously. (Note) I have an Olympus Series 5 borescope with 90 deg view 5MM diameter and a 7MM diameter one that views 30 degrees. In 2002 the Olympus folks told me they were 4700.00 and 2750.00 so no telling what they are worth now. They are so detailed that all I can see at one time is one land and one groove as they are about 40X.
Also there is another confirmation. At the test shed at Benning MTU had a barreled action with no rifling for three inches in front of chamber and it still shot 1.5” groups at 300 yards. The smooth portion looked like a mirror to naked eye. They cut it off four inches and rechambered it and it still shot 1.5” at 300. It was cleaned just as I did it except for some unexplainable reason no round counts were kept on the barrel.
Logically if you leave carbon in bore and it gets cold there is nothing to stop it embedding in copper jacket and go merrily down bore chewing it away.
So that is the data I have for what it is worth. As far as I am concerned I hope to never be without a chronograph, erosion gage and my borescopes as I can tell exactly what is happening all the time on my rifles. I generally borescope every 500 rounds and record in the round logs per rifle and record the erosion gage measurements.
I tend to make my long range rifles chamber snug on a GO Gage. On the rapid fire rifles I will loosen it up about .002” and bump shoulder .001 to .002. My cases will go in a Wilson case gage and spec new as fired. I try to get chambers so that nothing moves on case dims over .002” in any direction.
No you didn't win but that excuse will sound good to some that read it haha.
Shelf seating. Partially turn neck about 2/3rds way down and stop. Fire the case and that sets up a shelf so the bullet will just slide in neck and sit on the shelf that is formed when the upper section blows out and leaves a little shelf left. No grip on the bullet at all and throat aligns bullet.
Floating bushing sounds interesting. Did you open die up or order bushing undersize?
Try seating tension about 3/10s. Just enough that you can't turn 308 with fingers.
Personally I think you are making a big mistake by not cleaning often. Here is the rationale. Several years ago I got to wondering just why we only get about 4000 rounds on a match rifle and the ammo acceptance barrels used to test 7.62 at 600 yards hold up 15 to 17K. Both are 4140 but one lasts longer than the other so I thought long and hard and it finally dawned on me. The only differences between a match barrel and an ammo acceptance barrel is the way they are shot and they way they are cleaned.
NATO ammo acceptance is conducted using three barreled rifles (same as was sold by CMP a couple years back which were on 03 actions). Rifle one is clamped into an FA mount and one round is fired at 600 yards. Guy in pit tells the gunner where he hit and the gunner adjusts to get shots in middle of target. Usually takes two to four shots. Once the rifle is printing center the pit man radios back and tells him he is good to go.
The gunner loads five rounds in mag and has five loose rounds in left hand. At the same time the pit man pulls and pastes up the target and runs it back up. The gunner gets off those ten rounds as fast as he can operate the bolt and the second five are dropped in individually. A good gunner will get off ten rounds in 15 seconds or so. Pit man pulls the target and measures the group and assuming the first group is within spec he radios good. While the pit man is changing target the gunner takes gun out of FA mount and records the number of rounds fired in the gun log.
He places the second rifle in and repeats test. Ammo must deliver acceptable groups from all three guns.
Before the next lot of ammo is fired those guns go back for scrubbing/cleaning. No ammo testing is done with barrel having propellant residue which is carbon basically. Think of it this way carbon when it gets cold becomes hard. What is put in steel to make it hard? Carbon. What is hardest tool bit made? Carbide.
Look at expander buttons on dies used to decap fired brass. There are small lines on the expander button and corresponding lines on the inside of the case necks. OK brass is not hard enough to score hardened steel expander balls right? So that leaves the carbon left in the case neck to embed in the expander ball.
To prove this about four years back I took two new rifles, a 700 Rem and 70 Winchester. I dedicated 50 rounds for each and started with the 700 in 308. I shot it and cleaned it every 12 rounds for the first 50 rounds, came in and reloaded the ammo immediately. I also borescoped the throat. Normally throat marks are gone in new 30 cal barrels at between 100 and 150 rounds.
Next I went to 25 round strings shot at one minute intervals. This took barrel temp (at muzzle) to around 122F) shooting at 60 second intervals.
I continued testing and the reamer marks remained in the throat so about 600 rounds I did a sustained fire test for 30 rounds firing one every 30 seconds. This took barrel temp to 160F. I had detectable movement on erosion gage here.
Next test was 30 rounds at 15 second intervals and barrel temp went to 190F. Again with more gage movement.
Even with this I still had reamer marks in throat. I cleaned just as soon as I quit firing and had a sloppy wet patch of ER down barrel within seconds of last shot.
I went back to 22 round strings and reamer marks disappeared at 900 rounds. At 1004 rounds I pulled it. Remington barrels are known to be quite soft but I decreased initial wear by 600%.
Started next rifle which was 70 and in 30.06. Stopped at 550 rounds as the throat wear duplicated what I was getting in the 700.
So bottom line is LC, FA barrels saw nothing but rapid fire and lasted 15+k and were cleaned frequently and well.
Thus I had the data confirmed by borescope and erosion gage that frequent cleaning should extend barrel life tremendously. (Note) I have an Olympus Series 5 borescope with 90 deg view 5MM diameter and a 7MM diameter one that views 30 degrees. In 2002 the Olympus folks told me they were 4700.00 and 2750.00 so no telling what they are worth now. They are so detailed that all I can see at one time is one land and one groove as they are about 40X.
Also there is another confirmation. At the test shed at Benning MTU had a barreled action with no rifling for three inches in front of chamber and it still shot 1.5” groups at 300 yards. The smooth portion looked like a mirror to naked eye. They cut it off four inches and rechambered it and it still shot 1.5” at 300. It was cleaned just as I did it except for some unexplainable reason no round counts were kept on the barrel.
Logically if you leave carbon in bore and it gets cold there is nothing to stop it embedding in copper jacket and go merrily down bore chewing it away.
So that is the data I have for what it is worth. As far as I am concerned I hope to never be without a chronograph, erosion gage and my borescopes as I can tell exactly what is happening all the time on my rifles. I generally borescope every 500 rounds and record in the round logs per rifle and record the erosion gage measurements.
I tend to make my long range rifles chamber snug on a GO Gage. On the rapid fire rifles I will loosen it up about .002” and bump shoulder .001 to .002. My cases will go in a Wilson case gage and spec new as fired. I try to get chambers so that nothing moves on case dims over .002” in any direction.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Pardon me for being dense but I just don't get the purpose of shelf seating. One of the hings that I do is make sure that the bearing surface of my bullets does not sit below the neck-shoulder intersection. I like to have the match bullet seated with only the boat tail below that spot.
Redding recommends that you allow the bushing to float a little in their bushing dies, I observe that recommendation and it seems to work very well for me.
At this moment in time, I am very pleased with my load and the way I do it. In order for me to change anything it will require a lot more than just "try this."
Whether it's a mistake to not clean every string or to do so remains to be seen. For me the deciding factor is the score on paper, that's really all I have to measure with, but I appreciate the data. Just for the record, I do push a single soft patch through at the end of the match. It really does not come out very dirty.
I appreciated the quiz and I sure hope I got a passing grade on the answers. My whole perspective of F-T/R shooting is that one can be competitive without spending multiple thousands of dollars on rifle then scope, then loading tools. I do not mind paying good money for things, but I like to apply the money to what I think is critical; barrel and components, and I can easily get by decent equipment in other areas.
This also applies to handloading as my time is rather limited for doing that, so I allot the time to do the critical tasks only; the low hanging fruit if you will. I have been happy with the results so far, I do not feel limited by my equipment and the scores have increased.
Pardon me for being dense but I just don't get the purpose of shelf seating. One of the hings that I do is make sure that the bearing surface of my bullets does not sit below the neck-shoulder intersection. I like to have the match bullet seated with only the boat tail below that spot.
Redding recommends that you allow the bushing to float a little in their bushing dies, I observe that recommendation and it seems to work very well for me.
At this moment in time, I am very pleased with my load and the way I do it. In order for me to change anything it will require a lot more than just "try this."
Whether it's a mistake to not clean every string or to do so remains to be seen. For me the deciding factor is the score on paper, that's really all I have to measure with, but I appreciate the data. Just for the record, I do push a single soft patch through at the end of the match. It really does not come out very dirty.
I appreciated the quiz and I sure hope I got a passing grade on the answers. My whole perspective of F-T/R shooting is that one can be competitive without spending multiple thousands of dollars on rifle then scope, then loading tools. I do not mind paying good money for things, but I like to apply the money to what I think is critical; barrel and components, and I can easily get by decent equipment in other areas.
This also applies to handloading as my time is rather limited for doing that, so I allot the time to do the critical tasks only; the low hanging fruit if you will. I have been happy with the results so far, I do not feel limited by my equipment and the scores have increased.
Re: .308 1000 yards
The purpose of shelf seating was to allow the bullet to sit there with no neck tension at all.
I also seat mine so just the boat tail is below the neck.
I did mine slightly different as I made a expander mandrell that is .307 on the bottom and .3095 on the top and I just ran the .3095 section down to almost the bottom of the neck. Not all the way in the case.
As he .308 bullet goes in neck it will allow the bullet to move freely till the bottom of the bullet bearing surface contacts the .307 shelf (tight spot at bottom of neck) and it just sits there.
I loaded up enough ammo for one test and I could see how it would give a more uniform neck tension or rather eliminate neck tension insofar as he case goes. I was just wondering if you had got into it. I saw it on one of the BR forums and it sounded feasible but I didn't want to turn a bunch of brass and find I had cut it to the wrong depth so I came up with the double sized expander and it worked just fine.
Obviously this ammo has to have care and not be thrown around as the bullets will fall out.
I have seen guys soft seat for years and have done it myself but I haven't talked to anyone who actually did it to see how they were getting on. I may have read it on 6br.com ???
I have seen the Redding bushing dies but did not realize they were floating bushings. Makes perfect sense though. Might have to spring for one. Thanks for the input.
Let me know how many rounds you get on the barrel. Just running a dry patch down immediately after shooting will take out most of it.
Ed Harris told me to keep the carbon in case necks soft he takes Q tips and wipes ER inside case necks as soon as they are fired and that keeps the carbon soft/dissolved till he gets home to clean them. It is amazing to see how much carbon will come off on a Q tip by doing this.
The purpose of shelf seating was to allow the bullet to sit there with no neck tension at all.
I also seat mine so just the boat tail is below the neck.
I did mine slightly different as I made a expander mandrell that is .307 on the bottom and .3095 on the top and I just ran the .3095 section down to almost the bottom of the neck. Not all the way in the case.
As he .308 bullet goes in neck it will allow the bullet to move freely till the bottom of the bullet bearing surface contacts the .307 shelf (tight spot at bottom of neck) and it just sits there.
I loaded up enough ammo for one test and I could see how it would give a more uniform neck tension or rather eliminate neck tension insofar as he case goes. I was just wondering if you had got into it. I saw it on one of the BR forums and it sounded feasible but I didn't want to turn a bunch of brass and find I had cut it to the wrong depth so I came up with the double sized expander and it worked just fine.
Obviously this ammo has to have care and not be thrown around as the bullets will fall out.
I have seen guys soft seat for years and have done it myself but I haven't talked to anyone who actually did it to see how they were getting on. I may have read it on 6br.com ???
I have seen the Redding bushing dies but did not realize they were floating bushings. Makes perfect sense though. Might have to spring for one. Thanks for the input.
Let me know how many rounds you get on the barrel. Just running a dry patch down immediately after shooting will take out most of it.
Ed Harris told me to keep the carbon in case necks soft he takes Q tips and wipes ER inside case necks as soon as they are fired and that keeps the carbon soft/dissolved till he gets home to clean them. It is amazing to see how much carbon will come off on a Q tip by doing this.
Re: .308 1000 yards
holy cow, the mother of all verbose threads! That was an informative reloading exchange...not too sure about that shelf seating stuff for us amateurs though.
holy cow, the mother of all verbose threads! That was an informative reloading exchange...not too sure about that shelf seating stuff for us amateurs though.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Yeah, Hummer sure likes to write a lot, doesn't he? Not like me who is shy and reserved.
So, Hummer, no, I have not tried the shelf seating thing and I seriously doubt I will ever try it. I'm not quite sure how you can control bullet runout with that method except to say that it most probably generates a great deal of runout, but probably all in the same direction. Then again, if you cant the rifle, the runout will cant also, and that may be double jeopardy.
Also, I don't know about you, but I have dropped my case of ammo, more than once on the range or getting ot out of the SUV, or having it spontaneously flip over when somebody walks too close. Nothing much happens to my ammo, but I can see where you will open you box and find three piles: empty primed brass (very clean inside and out,) about 4500 grains (more than one half pound) of powder and 100 bullets at the bottom. There goes that match, thanks for coming out.
I have less that one thoudand rounds in this barrel, I expect it to last for several thousand rounds. It may be a while before I report back on this aspect, so don't hold your breath.
Are we talking about the star of The Right Stuff, The Abbyss and Enemy at The Gates, here? I have enough stuff going on during a match, I am not sure I want to Q-tip my cases on top of that; some people might start talking. I do use a neck brush at reloading time.
Yeah, Hummer sure likes to write a lot, doesn't he? Not like me who is shy and reserved.
So, Hummer, no, I have not tried the shelf seating thing and I seriously doubt I will ever try it. I'm not quite sure how you can control bullet runout with that method except to say that it most probably generates a great deal of runout, but probably all in the same direction. Then again, if you cant the rifle, the runout will cant also, and that may be double jeopardy.
Also, I don't know about you, but I have dropped my case of ammo, more than once on the range or getting ot out of the SUV, or having it spontaneously flip over when somebody walks too close. Nothing much happens to my ammo, but I can see where you will open you box and find three piles: empty primed brass (very clean inside and out,) about 4500 grains (more than one half pound) of powder and 100 bullets at the bottom. There goes that match, thanks for coming out.
I have less that one thoudand rounds in this barrel, I expect it to last for several thousand rounds. It may be a while before I report back on this aspect, so don't hold your breath.
Are we talking about the star of The Right Stuff, The Abbyss and Enemy at The Gates, here? I have enough stuff going on during a match, I am not sure I want to Q-tip my cases on top of that; some people might start talking. I do use a neck brush at reloading time.
Re: .308 1000 yards
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=C+E+Harris+american+rifleman
http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA.html This website Ed has articles on and is a gold mine of info.
Ed Harris was technical writer for American Rifleman for years then went to Ruger and was in charge of QA.
I called him last night and we talked about forty five minutes and he explained how he found out about the shelf seating. He says some call it dough nut seating. Also there is no official name.
He stumbled on it when he started turning some 30.06 necks a few years back and the neck tool was still set up for 308 necks (which he turns thin to like .011". When he ran the turner it stopped and he left it at that and upon firing the thin area expanded and the thick area stayed the same so when he FL sized the case he had a shelf at bottom and found he could just sit the bullets in the case mouth the gas check sat on the shelf and the cast bullet boys fell in love with it. I asked him if any of the long range boys had used it and he said he was aware of a few that used it.
I made a mandrel and instead of turning I just expand case mouths part way down. I only did one test with it and got side tracked with wife's kidney surgery two years ago and most recently with eye surgery and have not got back to it yet.
On my long range ammo I learned to take gun tape and tape the ammo box lids so even if dropped it won't come open. To keep them from moving inside box I line lid with foam sheet about 1" thick. This stops ammo movement with shorter cases.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=C+E+Harris+american+rifleman
http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA.html This website Ed has articles on and is a gold mine of info.
Ed Harris was technical writer for American Rifleman for years then went to Ruger and was in charge of QA.
I called him last night and we talked about forty five minutes and he explained how he found out about the shelf seating. He says some call it dough nut seating. Also there is no official name.
He stumbled on it when he started turning some 30.06 necks a few years back and the neck tool was still set up for 308 necks (which he turns thin to like .011". When he ran the turner it stopped and he left it at that and upon firing the thin area expanded and the thick area stayed the same so when he FL sized the case he had a shelf at bottom and found he could just sit the bullets in the case mouth the gas check sat on the shelf and the cast bullet boys fell in love with it. I asked him if any of the long range boys had used it and he said he was aware of a few that used it.
I made a mandrel and instead of turning I just expand case mouths part way down. I only did one test with it and got side tracked with wife's kidney surgery two years ago and most recently with eye surgery and have not got back to it yet.
On my long range ammo I learned to take gun tape and tape the ammo box lids so even if dropped it won't come open. To keep them from moving inside box I line lid with foam sheet about 1" thick. This stops ammo movement with shorter cases.
Re: .308 1000 yards
We are still waiting with bated breath on the explanation for your spontaneously forward-launched rifle.
We are still waiting with bated breath on the explanation for your spontaneously forward-launched rifle.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Ok, are you going to leave us hanging forever?
Only thing I can come up with is that your sling broke and turned into a "sling shot" resulting in your rifle becoming the projectile????
JM
Sorry Sig, looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time, it just took me longer to think about it.
Ok, are you going to leave us hanging forever?
Only thing I can come up with is that your sling broke and turned into a "sling shot" resulting in your rifle becoming the projectile????
JM
Sorry Sig, looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time, it just took me longer to think about it.
Re: .308 1000 yards
No worries MadDog. I guess we will never know.
No worries MadDog. I guess we will never know.
Re: .308 1000 yards
Mad Dog is very close.
I used to worry about sling breaking when I was a kid and my Dad always said he never saw one broke and if it broke he would get me another one. Gosh I miss having him to shoot with.
Mad Dog is very close.
I used to worry about sling breaking when I was a kid and my Dad always said he never saw one broke and if it broke he would get me another one. Gosh I miss having him to shoot with.
Re: .308 1000 yards
See, all it takes is a reminder.
Looks like your sling swivel came apart right when you fired.
See, all it takes is a reminder.
Looks like your sling swivel came apart right when you fired.
