308 or 300wm for PRS competitions

[LivOutLoud]

I guess I’ll start with a little background since this is my first post.

I have been shooting USPSA and 3 gun for years. My first bolt gun 10 years ago is a 700pss 308, barrel cut to 23” with SS 10x scope that I still shoot. I have always been drawn to long range. I have shot my 308 out to 1000 a good amount the last 10 years. This last year I got the itch to try shooting at a mile and built a custom 300wm with 26” heavy barrel on a trued 700 action with gen 2 razor. I’ve only had it to 1300 so far.

I have only shot one precision match in my life and this year I am feeling the urge to get much more into it. I plan on sending my 308 bolt gun out to have it trued and put a 6.5cm barrel on as well as get a higher end optic for it. That will be a fair amount of money to do, which won’t happen till next year.

So the question is, which will serve me better in a match? The 308 or 300wm? I suspect the awswer might be depending on the match. I know I would not want the 300 if allot of hiking is involved because it is about 21lbs vs the 14lbs 308. That said the 308 is not going to be much help ballistically for me if ranges are beyond 800. Using better bullets for the 308 like flatline would help but not sure that is affordable for me.

I’m really just a precision novice that is rusty at the precision game trying to get better and have fun. Thanks for any help that anyone can lend.

 

[demolitionman]

So your having your bolt gun barrel changed to 6.5mm, but your asking us if you should use 308 or 300wm? I'm confused. 6.5 over the 30 cals all day for PRS.
Edit;Use the .308 in the meantime. Hell the last match I shot at tvp an ex marine won running a 16"barreled suppressed 308! It's the Indian not the arrow although the 6.5 will make a lot of things easier.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Unless you have to get really far out there, the 300 WM won't be very good for most matches.
You might run into velocity limits on the matches, as well as it's going to beat you up a bit more both in weight & recoil.
For most average matches the 6.5 CM would be more than adequate and is widely used.

Now as to your .308
Lowlight has a couple articles & videos available on the site & if you run a faster twist decent length barrel & run the Warner flatline projectiles, you can for the most part match the ballistics on the 6.5 CM (at a lot more cost and work).

If you are trying to get out to a mile, then the .300 WM would be a good option.

 

[LivOutLoud]

So your having your bolt gun barrel changed to 6.5mm, but your asking us if you should use 308 or 300wm? I'm confused. 6.5 over the 30 cals all day for PRS.

I won’t have the means to change the 308 over to 6.5 till next year. So if I use it this year it’s going to be a 308. This year I will not have access to 6.5 unless I come into allot of extra money and even then it would take most of the summer for it to be worked on anyways.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

So your having your bolt gun barrel changed to 6.5mm, but your asking us if you should use 308 or 300wm? I'm confused. 6.5 over the 30 cals all day for PRS.

I think you need to read his post more carefully. He wants to shoot matches this year, but won't be rebuilding to 6.5CM until next year, curranly has a .308 and .300WM. (Looks like he's spelling out for you so never mind)

As to the OP, I'd go with the .308 unless you were going to a match that was heavy in stages over 1000yrds.

 

[LivOutLoud]

Unless you have to get really far out there, the 300 WM won't be very good for most matches.
You might run into velocity limits on the matches, as well as it's going to beat you up a bit more both in weight & recoil.
For most average matches the 6.5 CM would be more than adequate and is widely used.

Now as to your .308
Lowlight has a couple articles & videos available on the site & if you run a faster twist decent length barrel & run the Warner flatline projectiles, you can for the most part match the ballistics on the 6.5 CM (at a lot more cost and work).

If you are trying to get out to a mile, then the .300 WM would be a good option.

Would a 208 going about 2800 to 2900 be a problem at most matches for fps limits?

So say that I could not or would not want to afford flatline bullets would a 175smk load handicap me allot? It’s a 1-12 twist barrel on the 308.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

The 308 is going to be better pretty much all of the time. Put the Gen II Razor on it.

I shot my 308 Win with just plain jane Federal Gold Medal match and took 24th at a local match with around 100 shooters.

Most targets in matches tend to be well within the capability of 308 Winchester. It's just not forgiving at longer distances.

 

[davsco]

i'd pick the 300wm just due to better ballistics (you got a longer barrel and can run heavier (higher BC) bullets. as much as that thing weights, recoil shouldn't be too much of a problem. when you switch your 308 to a 6.5 then i'd prob pick the 6.5, though i think the 230 bergers in 300wm still have better bc than 147's in 6.5. one key is if you can spot your hits and misses with your 300, that's pretty important. another thing is really seeing your hits, when that big 300wm 230g or so hits, you (and the spotters) know it, much more so than with a smaller, lighter 6.5 bullet.

most prs matches i've seen (not a lot) have max velocities between 3100 and 3200 (what PRS uses).

 

[...]

Would a 208 going about 2800 to 2900 be a problem at most matches for fps limits?

So say that I could not or would not want to afford flatline bullets would a 175smk load handicap me allot? It’s a 1-12 twist barrel on the 308.

308 will do you just fine........6.5 is not THAT much better than .308.

regarding your choice in bullet........175s might work with a 1/12 twist........ive seen guns that shoot it just fine.....while others that have accuracy issues.

175 will be right on the edge of stability.....so youll really have to shoot it and see.

168g SMKs are also a fine choice

if given the choice between 308 and 300.....i would probably choose 300..........youll have the option to shoot heavier bullets with higher BCs

 

[Notdylan]

Would a 208 going about 2800 to 2900 be a problem at most matches for fps limits?

So say that I could not or would not want to afford flatline bullets would a 175smk load handicap me allot? It’s a 1-12 twist barrel on the 308.

With a 1:12 .308 I'm going to be reaching for the 155 scenars.

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you have a 1:12 twist .308 most likely the 155 scenars will shoot well and can hit 1000 yards without a problem (at least from a 26" barrel), most likely you can also shoot the 175 just fine.

However a 6.5 CM or shooting the expensive Warner Flatline projectiles will make a big difference when it comes to scoring better once wind and especially non-steady wind comes into play.

A .300 Win Mag shooting good long range bullets will do everything that all the others can and more, you can also load heavier bullets to take care of any velocity restrictions as you mentioned, but in a match where you might have a fairly large amount of rounds fired, it will be a bit more punishing/tiring/costly than several other caliber options.

 

[kRcu]

I shot my first match with a .308 and did fine. I wasn’t able to spot trace very easily, but as long as I heard “hit” I just moved on. Our match was from 100-800 yds. I’m going to run my new AIAT with its .308 barrel in a couple of matches until I figure out what caliber/length setup I want to do to compliment it.

 

[tnc]

.308 with 155 scenars. I push em to 2880fps in mine.

 

[Statusquo]

I guess I’ll start with a little background since this is my first post.

I have been shooting USPSA and 3 gun for years. My first bolt gun 10 years ago is a 700pss 308, barrel cut to 23” with SS 10x scope that I still shoot. I have always been drawn to long range. I have shot my 308 out to 1000 a good amount the last 10 years. This last year I got the itch to try shooting at a mile and built a custom 300wm with 26” heavy barrel on a trued 700 action with gen 2 razor. I’ve only had it to 1300 so far.

I have only shot one precision match in my life and this year I am feeling the urge to get much more into it. I plan on sending my 308 bolt gun out to have it trued and put a 6.5cm barrel on as well as get a higher end optic for it. That will be a fair amount of money to do, which won’t happen till next year.

So the question is, which will serve me better in a match? The 308 or 300wm? I suspect the awswer might be depending on the match. I know I would not want the 300 if allot of hiking is involved because it is about 21lbs vs the 14lbs 308. That said the 308 is not going to be much help ballistically for me if ranges are beyond 800. Using better bullets for the 308 like flatline would help but not sure that is affordable for me.

I’m really just a precision novice that is rusty at the precision game trying to get better and have fun. Thanks for any help that anyone can lend.

Run the .308.

I've shot a .300 in a few matches and while the .300 will be better ballistically, this is a game of recoil management. You will catch of lot of grief from MD's for beating up targets and may even not be allowed to run a magnum at some venues. It may be fun, but the .300 isn't a viable option for standard PRS format matches.

 

[0321]

Try the 168eld. I’m getting mv of 2865 and stable past 1000yd.

 

[LivOutLoud]

Alright thanks for all the replies! I guess I will play with some different 308 bullets and get a little practice in when it warms up a little.

 

[Barney88PDC]

300 WM will yield better ballistics but will push you around too much with the added recoil. Limiting your ability to spot impacts as well as probably causing a flinch to develop. With your R700 in 308 it is likely a 1:12 twist and you will be limited on how heavy of a projectile it can stabilize. I would also suggest a 155 Lapua Scenar and see if that gives you acceptable accuracy.

Get on the 6.5 train as fast as possible though. If you don't reload or don't want to then Creedmoor is the answer. If you do then I like the 6.5x47L for the ease of load development as well as the accuracy and consistency.

 

[natdscott]

I think you need to read his post more carefully. He wants to shoot matches this year, but won't be rebuilding to 6.5CM until next year, curranly has a .308 and .300WM. (Looks like he's spelling out for you so never mind).

I kinda thought maybe it wasn't a "he". Ladies are rare in these parts, but not unheard of.

-Nate

 

[Fig]

IMHO...
PRS/Tactical steel shooting is more recoil management than any other game. Positional shooting means, by definition, that you will often be unable to load into your rifle as much as you would like. That doesn't mean you have to shoot free recoil, but I find it a lot easier to do so in a lot of situations, like when the barricade is so rickety you wouldn't set your beer on it.

With the best brake/can made you are still going to have difficulty spotting your own shots through the scope with a .308, and it's even more difficult with a .300WM. I'm sure some of you can do it, but it's extremely challenging for me. I love .300WM, and would rather carry it in the field than anything else, but I compete with a rifle made for the game.

If your dope and wind calls are great and all you hear is "IMPACT" after every trigger pull it isn't an issue. I can't tell you how many stages, where it started out looking mighty grim, that were salvaged by good spotting and impact correction..., but it's a lot. I've shot stages where it just isn't happening. I was missing, and had no idea where they were going or why. I have taken to shooting at the base of a target stand to see what's doing instead of wasting another shot into the ether. If you can't spot for yourself through the scope you don't have that option. You are more guessing than correcting, and that's not going to help you at all.

Just my thoughts and opinion.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

I kinda thought maybe it wasn't a "he". Ladies are rare in these parts, but not unheard of.

-Nate

Oh man...failure to observe on my part, my bad.

 

[LivOutLoud]

Yeah we’re rare for sure but I just can’t help myself but be addicted to shooting sports

Thanks for all the help everyone and I do take advice and apply it. I shot the 300wm in a PRS match last weekend just to see and sure enough it’s not great for it and what everyone is saying I find true. I don’t really want to burn the barrel out my 300 for the short range and heavy fire parts of a match.

I started another topic on here about 6.5cm barrel length. I plan on converting my 308 to a 6.5cm when I can get a barrel. I am probably going with a remage barrel so I can change the barrel out locally easy when I burn it out.

In the meantime I also put the razor gen II on the 308 and have started practicing positional shooting with it out to 325 yards which is the max I have on my range on my property.

Thanks so much for all the help and this is why I love the hide and why I’m glad I came here. Just pure simple truth for the most part!

 

[Fig]

Yeah we’re rare for sure but I just can’t help myself but be addicted to shooting sports

I can't even imagine... It's a sore point with my wife.

 

[LivOutLoud]

Haha... well everyone is a he on the internet

I’d say get her shooting more but that just makes sense in my mind because I’m me.

 

[natdscott]

I can't even imagine... It's a sore point with my wife.

lol! Like hen's teeth, they be. I've only seen a few in the wild. Shooters, they were.

Liv, I don't know how tall you are, but I'm pretty sure Gallagher is shorter.

 

[LivOutLoud]

Lol well I don’t know the Gallagher reference... I’m not the shortest in the world but when I meet a guy shorter than me it is a pretty rare event I’m pretty average as far as women go.

 

[fdkay]

As has been said, go with the .308. If you can, spend the money this year on glass.
Luckily for you, there are MANY options out there now with most or all of the features you need.
Athlon, Burris, Vortex, Tract, Nikon, Sightmark and Primary Arms come immediately to mind.
I would set the minimum scope around the XTR II or PST II line, if you can step up to just a bit more to get a good japanese scope like the SWFA 5-20, you would be even better off.
It is really hard to argue with the XTR II though. A quality scope with excellent features, good reticles, excellent mechanics but meh glass ( i find the eye box tight at max magnification as well)

 

[christopher.dow]

@LivOutLoud you can use the 308 with your rifle zeroed for your normal 308 round, then use Flatlines when you have to shoot at distance. The 1/12 barrel does make 175s iffy. You could experiment with Scenar 155s or Berger Hybrid Target 155s (and Scenar-
L 185s were just as reliable at 1k as Flatlines, but of course with more drop). I found the Scenars and Hybrid Targets had the same zero in my rifle. I didn’t push them past 2850, and I’m told they need to be faster than that to perform well past 800. My performance at 1k with 155s wasn’t great. In any case shooting 308 this year will make you that much better next year when you’re shooting 6.5.

Once you have the lower-cost bullet sorted, you can shoot Flatlines past the 155s’ effective distance.

You can record the verical and horizontal offsets (I found they had the same horizontal offset) needed to get Flatlines to hit your normal zero, then enter those into your ballistic program to get your try dope. Take them out to distance and record all that data for truing. That way, you’re prepared for the longer stuff without having to shoot the Flatlines all the time. If you want to save money on doping, then just dope the Flatlines at the distances you’ll be shooting them.

 

[fdkay]

Why are 175 SMK's iffy in a 1-12 twist?
The USMC has been shooting that combination for around 35 years with nary an issue.

 

[Bender]

Lol well I don’t know the Gallagher reference... I’m not the shortest in the world but when I meet a guy shorter than me it is a pretty rare event I’m pretty average as far as women go.

You would tower over frank(Hide HMFIC)... lol.

 

[steve123]

Just do 6.5 Creedmoor now and hide it in the back safe like everyone else does to deceive their wives, lol. Then buy your husband some shoes or something.

 

[LivOutLoud]

As has been said, go with the .308. If you can, spend the money this year on glass.
Luckily for you, there are MANY options out there now with most or all of the features you need.
Athlon, Burris, Vortex, Tract, Nikon, Sightmark and Primary Arms come immediately to mind.
I would set the minimum scope around the XTR II or PST II line, if you can step up to just a bit more to get a good japanese scope like the SWFA 5-20, you would be even better off.
It is really hard to argue with the XTR II though. A quality scope with excellent features, good reticles, excellent mechanics but meh glass ( i find the eye box tight at max magnification as well)

I do like my SWFA I have and have had it since I got this 308 over a decade ago, great scopes for sure. I have a vortex Razor II that I put on the 308 which will be the 6.5 when I finish. I will most likely pick up a razor gen I at the end of the year when I can get pro deals on it for dirt cheap and slap it back on the 300wm.

@LivOutLoud you can use the 308 with your rifle zeroed for your normal 308 round, then use Flatlines when you have to shoot at distance. The 1/12 barrel does make 175s iffy. You could experiment with Scenar 155s or Berger Hybrid Target 155s (and Scenar-
L 185s were just as reliable at 1k as Flatlines, but of course with more drop). I found the Scenars and Hybrid Targets had the same zero in my rifle. I didn’t push them past 2850, and I’m told they need to be faster than that to perform well past 800. My performance at 1k with 155s wasn’t great. In any case shooting 308 this year will make you that much better next year when you’re shooting 6.5.

Once you have the lower-cost bullet sorted, you can shoot Flatlines past the 155s’ effective distance.

You can record the verical and horizontal offsets (I found they had the same horizontal offset) needed to get Flatlines to hit your normal zero, then enter those into your ballistic program to get your try dope. Take them out to distance and record all that data for truing. That way, you’re prepared for the longer stuff without having to shoot the Flatlines all the time. If you want to save money on doping, then just dope the Flatlines at the distances you’ll be shooting them.

Im not sure that would be cheaper enough to make it worth the small extra effort. I suppose I could but if I budget out for 2500 rounds and a new barrel every other year then that would be so much more simplified and I can work it in the budget. What you are saying does sound good but seems like more hassle than I want to go. I like having one rifle, one bullet, and one set of data I shoot all the time. The cost difference is really in the barrel and not the ammo so much. The reason for remage barrel is to cut gunsmith costs and essentially im only out a barrel alone when I burn it. So even $400 a year on barrel IF I shoot that much is reasonable to keep everything consistent and data the same... hell I spend more a year on shoes

Why are 175 SMK's iffy in a 1-12 twist?
The USMC has been shooting that combination for around 35 years with nary an issue.

Honestly Ive had great luck with this barrel and 175. Ive shot great 1 to 2 Moa groups at 1000 with 175 in prone. Im somewhat confident in prone but most PRS stuff is not prone and is big reason Im looking at 6.5CM. This 1-12 shoots 10 shots groups with all the holes piled over each other at 100yards not that that means anything, just impressive for a older factory 700P. So at least in my limited first hand knowledge the 175 works great in this 1-12 barrel anyways.

You would tower over frank(Hide HMFIC)... lol.

Well now I want to meet him to test this out

Just do 6.5 Creedmoor now and hide it in the back safe like everyone else does to deceive their wives, lol. Then buy your husband some shoes or something.

If I had been drinking something when I read that I probably would of spit it out all over my computer Its good thing I have my own separate money and budget for this wasteful hobby!

Yeah Its not a if more so when I can get a barrel and start shooting 6.5. The lead times all vary and the ones in stock are not my liking... if I was impatient I would go with one available but I can wait a few months. Ive got like 600 more 175smk's to shoot anyways and I guess whatever I don't shoot I'll put them through my ar10 if I can ever finish building it.

 

[steve123]

I do like my SWFA I have and have had it since I got this 308 over a decade ago, great scopes for sure. I have a vortex Razor II that I put on the 308 which will be the 6.5 when I finish. I will most likely pick up a razor gen I at the end of the year when I can get pro deals on it for dirt cheap and slap it back on the 300wm.



Im not sure that would be cheaper enough to make it worth the small extra effort. I suppose I could but if I budget out for 2500 rounds and a new barrel every other year then that would be so much more simplified and I can work it in the budget. What you are saying does sound good but seems like more hassle than I want to go. I like having one rifle, one bullet, and one set of data I shoot all the time. The cost difference is really in the barrel and not the ammo so much. The reason for remage barrel is to cut gunsmith costs and essentially im only out a barrel alone when I burn it. So even $400 a year on barrel IF I shoot that much is reasonable to keep everything consistent and data the same... hell I spend more a year on shoes



Honestly Ive had great luck with this barrel and 175. Ive shot great 1 to 2 Moa groups at 1000 with 175 in prone. Im somewhat confident in prone but most PRS stuff is not prone and is big reason Im looking at 6.5CM. This 1-12 shoots 10 shots groups with all the holes piled over each other at 100yards not that that means anything, just impressive for a older factory 700P. So at least in my limited first hand knowledge the 175 works great in this 1-12 barrel anyways.

Well now I want to meet him to test this out



If I had been drinking something when I read that I probably would of spit it out all over my computer Its good thing I have my own separate money and budget for this wasteful hobby!

Yeah Its not a if more so when I can get a barrel and start shooting 6.5. The lead times all vary and the ones in stock are not my liking... if I was impatient I would go with one available but I can wait a few months. Ive got like 600 more 175smk's to shoot anyways and I guess whatever I don't shoot I'll put them through my ar10 if I can ever finish building it.

You're a good sport so I think you'll fit in just fine around here.

I've used my 30-375R (230's at 2940 fps) before in a match that was mostly prone off the bipod that involved longer distances, 300Y was the closest shot and I'd say 650-700Y was about average, with a 1080Y and a 1450Y shot thrown in. In that match 308 was the worst choice to use and that big 30 had the least wind drift there. I did win with it quite a bit.

A match that has more obstacles, positional, and closer distances a 308 would work but.....
So just go have fun and learn as much as you can because making tactical errors will happen and every time you go you'll learn what not to do as well as what will work better next time.

 

[BJames]

Shit, I say load those 175’s, swap optics from your win mag and run. Frank has had really good luck with the 185 juggernauts and 2000mr. Somewhere in the ball park of 2750, if you could get that, the 6.5 doesn’t seem all that better. Definitely run the 308 instead of your win mag

 

[Bender]

6.5 cm has the same exterior Ballistics as a 300 WM. So it will shoot just as well with 1/3 the recoil, which aids in spotting hits.

Terminal Ballistics are totally different, obviously. Lol

 

[MMH]

tag - good info on this thread...

 

[Blackfoot 7]

Hell the last match I shot at tvp a marine won running a 16"barreled suppressed 308! It's the Indian not the arrow...

Fixed it.