308 Subsonic Loading: Final word on lubing bullets?

[lonely_wolf]

Has there been any new developments/ experiences with lubing bullets? I cannot find any consistent answers on the need to lube. While people seem to agree that 180 to 220gr Sierra or Hornady flat based round nose bullets make the best choices, they are at odds on whether lubing these bullets is necessary.

Can someone explain to me why there is no definitive answer to this?

 

[biffj]

I guess the reason is that they each have an idea of how things should be and don't agree. In my opinion the idea of lubing copper jacketed bullets is bad. You want consistency and lubing bullets is not a way to do that. You are creating more carbon buildup and the lube left behind will vary with temps and the number of rounds fired. If you want to shoot good groups you need all to be the same....with variation you're not shooting them the same. Last thing here, how do you lube copper jacketed bullets? They have no grease grooves or anywhere to put lube in a fairly consistent manner. Its not like cast bullets where the lube is intended to help reduce lead fouling and they are cast with grooves to put it in. I've not seen any real copper fouling in my subsonic 30-221 with a 1-8 twist barrel and I don't lube any bullets. I think the idea of shooting 308 subsonic is kind of silly when its not made for it and other cals are. Kind of like using a 9 iron to launch a 500 yd drive or a 1 iron to shoot a 50yd shot. There is a tool for each purpose and the purpose of the 308 is supersonic. The 300 whisper, 300 fireball, 30-221 and 300 blackout are much better for subs and with the proper twist rate you can shoot subs accurately and use good bullets like the 240 matchkings instead of dealing with round nose stuff. You can shoot supersonics as well but competing with the 308 is tough for accuracy with faster bullets. One for each job to do it right. Using either to do the job they're not meant for means you're not getting it done with the efficiency you could.

Hope that helps
Frank

 

[rjacobs]

I dont think anybody is shooting subs in their 308's for accuracy. I am happy to hit my steel plate with mine and its a riot to shoot through the can with subs. Everybody giggles like little children when they shoot it(even more so than the 300 BLK subsonic suppressed).

I also shoot 300 BLK sub's through my AR, but IMO they are not as quiet as the 308 bolt gun subs are. I am sure if I had a 300BLK bolt gun it would be just as quiet if not quieter, but I can load 308 subs cheaper than 300blk subs and for the 700+ bucks to get a Rem 700 in 300 BLK(not even counting a scope and stock) I can load 2000 .308 subs(if we count a scope/base/rings and cheap stock for another grand thats another almost 3000 308 subs).

As for the OP I wouldnt even know what lube you would use or even WHY you would want to lube a jacketed bullet. Ive shot a bunch of 180g Sierra's and never even thought of lubing. Never had a single issue.

And to the OP, it says you are in Canada. As far as I understand silencers are "prohibited" items of which you can, in theory, get approval, but its rare. Do you have a silencer for your .308? If so, carry on with the subs. If not, why do you have a fascination with shooting subs?

 

[lonely_wolf]

rjacobs, That is right- my silly government prohibits firearm safety equipment. I do not have a suppressor, although my gunsmith likes to tease me because he works on the province's LEO rifles and gets to shoot with them quite often. We have stupid firearm laws in the north. Appreciate your second amendment.

I'm interested in subsonics for three reasons: 1) To (hopefully) reduce noise when shooting around the property. This is more so during the summer when everyone is flooding the countryside. 2) Confuse the fuds at my range. 3) Why the hell not! Seems like a fun project to waste some time.


What about moly coated bullets? What I've read noted that lubing bullets increases consistency and reduces the potential for stuck bullets. I agree though, seems odd lubing jacketed.

 

[oldfatguy]

rjacobs,
What about moly coated bullets? What I've read noted that lubing bullets increases consistency and reduces the potential for stuck bullets. I agree though, seems odd lubing jacketed.

If you must have lubbed jacketed bullets, moly coated would be a good way to go. Some swear by it, many have stopped using moly.

Stuck bullets? Might want to re-think your minimum powder charge.

OFG

 

[rjacobs]

rjacobs, That is right- my silly government prohibits firearm safety equipment. I do not have a suppressor, although my gunsmith likes to tease me because he works on the province's LEO rifles and gets to shoot with them quite often. We have stupid firearm laws in the north. Appreciate your second amendment.

I'm interested in subsonics for three reasons: 1) To (hopefully) reduce noise when shooting around the property. This is more so during the summer when everyone is flooding the countryside. 2) Confuse the fuds at my range. 3) Why the hell not! Seems like a fun project to waste some time.


What about moly coated bullets? What I've read noted that lubing bullets increases consistency and reduces the potential for stuck bullets. I agree though, seems odd lubing jacketed.

I have no comment on moly coated bullets since I dont use them. I have had zero issues with the 180g Sierra(both round nose and spitzers) that I have loaded with 10.5g of trail boss loaded to somewhere in the 2.800-2.850 range in my Rem 700 AAC-SD(20" barrel, 10 twist).

As to the rest, I wouldnt go out and buy 10000 bullets and pounds and pounds of powder until you load a few up and try them. IMO you arent really going to accomplish any of your goals except to have fun and waste time doing something different. Without a suppressor subsonics are pretty much worthless IMO. They are still loud, sound to me like a loud pistol shot, and although they dont have the sonic crack, that doesnt really matter because you have to shoot them with hearing protection. Nobody else in your range will know that you are shooting subsonics, it wont really confuse them, its not that quiet without a suppressor.

The ballistics are really crap too. I have my scope zero'd at 100 for 175g SMK FGMM factory ammo. I have to dial 5 mil for my zero on the 180g spitzer's at 100 yards. To get to 400 yards its an ADDITIONAL 15 mils. After my 5 mil come up for zero I only have 11.5 mil left on my scope which means if I want to send them to 400 I have to hold 3.5 more mils. 300 is the max distance I personally will shoot them at(which is 10 mils come up from the 100 zero) and at that you are sending them out there like artillery. Comparing all these come ups to a 175g SMK load moving 2600 FPS I can dial all the way out to 1200 yards before running out of elevation on my scope.

By all means play with them, I am a fan of subsonics, BUT if I didnt have a suppressor I wouldnt ever think of doing them because they dont do anything special unless you have a can. If you are ever down here in Missouri come on out and shoot some subs through a can and laugh like a little kid. If you get a chance to go with your gun smith some time to shoot the "governments" rifles with cans on them bring your subsonics and do it and laugh like a little kid.

 

[lonely_wolf]

Rjacobs, thank you for your bluntness. I think.

My barrel is an 18" 1/10 and I was planning on trying 180 gr RN Sierra's and Hornady's, so your data is quite interesting to read. I'm quite disappointed to hear they will not be noticeably more quiet. I knew they would not compare to anything suppressed, but I had hoped I would gain some noise reducing benefit. If that is not the case, I see your point about playing with them being mostly a waste of time (and money).

...and laugh like a little kid.

I DO want to laugh like a little kid...

 

[rjacobs]

Rjacobs, thank you for your bluntness. I think.

My barrel is an 18" 1/10 and I was planning on trying 180 gr RN Sierra's and Hornady's, so your data is quite interesting to read. I'm quite disappointed to hear they will not be noticeably more quiet. I knew they would not compare to anything suppressed, but I had hoped I would gain some noise reducing benefit. If that is not the case, I see your point about playing with them being mostly a waste of time (and money).



I DO want to laugh like a little kid...

Well I dont mean to be that blunt, but I think people get the wrong idea of how things are and then they seem to be pissed off when reality doesnt meet their expectations.

Like I said, they sound about like a pistol shot going off without a can on the gun so they ARE quieter than a full load of Varget behind a 175g SMK(or something like that). So if you are ok with something that sounds like a pistol than subsonic .308 with trail boss will do it.

Subsonics without a can just dont do anything that impressive. The external ballistics are crap(crazy drop at distance). The terminal ballistics i.e. wounding potential is also crap because the bullet wont fragment, tumble or open up so you punch a mostly clean hole through what you are shooting. There not that quiet(without the can).

But if you want to play with them and see for yourself be my guest, thats part of this hobby. You're out 40 bucks for a box of bullets and can of Trail Boss to see if its something that will suit what you are looking for. 10.5g of trail boss loaded to 2.800-2.850 with either the RN or Spitzer will get you where you want to be speed wise. I dont do any of the crazy stuff like use magnum primers or ream out the flash hole. Just load and go. Oh and wear ear protection.