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Range Report .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

BryanLitz

BryanLitz

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Aug 24, 2008
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www.appliedballisticsllc.com
<span style="font-size: 14pt">Announcing .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics, LLC.</span>


TacAmmo.png


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Key items to note:</span></span>

1) Loaded with new 175 grain Berger Tactical bullets and Lapua Brass (large rifle primer)

2) Individually weighed powder charges (very rare for pre-assembled ammo). The weighed powder charges minimize velocity SD's to less than 10 fps. Not a big deal at short to medium range, but is a big deal at long range.

3) I designed the Berger 175 grain Tactical bullet specifically for this class of ammo (M118LR). It's mag length feed-able, length tolerant, stable at transonic speeds, and has a higher BC than the 175 SMK and the 178 Hornady. Not to mention being made to Berger's high standards of precision.

4) Made with the same equipment and practices as used to produce the highly successful AB FULLBORE Ammo which has been used to win at National and international levels of competition.

5) A 20" LaRue OBR was used as the primary test platform and routinely produces sub-MOA groups at 1000 yards with this ammo. Note that this precision is possible despite the bullets going transonic around 850 yards.

At $40/box of 20, this ammunition certainly represents the high end. The cost reflects the high quality components and time intensive methods used in it's assembly. If you're only shooting to 200 or 300 yards, you probably won't notice a big improvement with this option. However, if you routinely shoot to 600 yards and further, you will see a definite advantage with this ammunition compared to other 'factory' ammo that's loaded with lower quality components and metered charges of ball powder.

Currently in stock and available to ship
(UPS ground to the lower 48)

-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Bryan as a component how would the new bullet compare the the 175/185 VLD hunting bullets......ie can I use it as a hunting bullet and expect similiar results?
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

g,

The Berger Tactical OTM bullets are made on thicker jackets than the VLD hunting bullets, and are not recommended for hunting. The jackets are a little thinner than the SMK though.

Thanks Lindy,

Your ammo will ship today.

-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

As a component, are these bullets available for purchase?
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

It will be made available as a component. It's only been in production for a couple weeks so it may take a while to show up on dealers sites.

-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Thanks Bryan, keep us posted as this looks very promising.
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

What is the MV on a 24" barrel?
What is the expected temperature sensitivity?
TIA
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

T,

The chrono data from my last 3 sessions (10-shot groups) from the 20" OBR are as follows:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>Ave 2562 fps
ES 23 fps
SD 7.2 fps

Ave 2566 fps
ES 29 fps
SD 9.7 fps

Ave 2562 fps
ES 25 fps
SD 7.6 fps</pre></div></div>

Other rifles:
26" Savage bolt rifle.
10 shots
2643 fps average, ES = 31, SD = 11.5 fps

30" Palma rifle
5 shots
2808 fps average, ES = 21, SD = 8.5 fps

Based on the above, I would expect ~2615 fps from a 24" barrel.

The above velocities are for ambient temps around 30-40 degrees F. This ammo uses extruded powder and is very temperature stable compared to ball powders used in most factory ammo. Honestly I haven't done a rigorous study on the temperature sensitivity, but based on my experience with this power from years past, it should be fairly stable.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Dark Horse,

If you're talking about pressure, I can tell you the rounds are not loaded to excessively high pressure. Or are you asking about some other aspect of the powder as it relates specifically to an M14?

I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work in an M14. It was tested in a semi-automatic LaRue OBR with a 20" barrel and never had a problem.

Take care,
-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Bryan,

I have been told to never use a load that uses a slower burning powder than IMR 4064 due to excessive port pressure. Not sure how the IMR burn rate compares to what you are using.
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Dark Horse,

The port pressure will have as much to do with the amount of powder used as it does burn rate.

Never-the-less, I checked a burn rate chart. The powder I'm using has a very similar burn rate to IMR 4064. I'm confident it will function properly in your M14.

-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Whats the ballistic coefficient of the new projectile? I'm interested in loading some of these myself when they're available

Edited to add - I assume they will be available at the usual sources as production cranks them out? Midway USA, Sinclair, Sgammo and the like?
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Bryan,

You have a PM.

John
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For BC information, see this thread:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...991#Post2451991
</div></div>
Thanks. Those look like nice BC #s. I'll definitely want to check out a box when they hit the shelves.

Bryan - I primarily shoot 175SMKs now for my 1K load. Do you expect much difference in charge weight with these new 175 Tactical bullets from what I'm using now? For instance, my pet load is interchangable with 175 smks or 178 AMAXs. Do you expect the same thing?
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Cool, I can't wait to get my hands on some.
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Bryan,

Have you done any testing to see how this bullet performs in subsonic ammunition? Would it's design give it any advantage over other match type bullets in this application?

Kris
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

What is the difference between your bullet and

30420 BERGER .308 175 GR MATCH TARGET BT LONG RANGE

This one has a higher BC reported G1.515/G7.264

This bullet also seating depth sensative like a VLD?
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Kris,

I haven't tested them in subsonic ammunition. I would expect them to do well compared to longer bullets, but don't have any experimental results with this.

Jason,

The bullet you referenced at PV is not the Tactical bullet I'm using. The bullet at PV is the LR BT, which has a longer nose (non-mag length), shorter BT, and slightly higher BC compared to the Tactical bullet. This LR BT and the Tactical bullet are length tolerant (meaning they're not sensitive to jump like a VLD).

I expect you'll see the Tactical bullets showing up in stores soon, but I don't know exactly when.

-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Thanks, saw my mistake when i cross referenced the BC's ...

Thanks for the info... non mag length in a SR25/PMag only or will they work in an AICS Mag w/ or w/o the plate?
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jason_B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info... non mag length in a SR25/PMag only or will they work in an AICS Mag w/ or w/o the plate? </div></div>

The nose on the LRBT is 0.065" longer than the nose on the Tactical bullet. So weather that bullet is mag length in a specific mag depends on how deep you seat it, and how long the specific magazine is. If you load the LRBT to the same 2.800" OAL as the Tactical bullet, it will just have a longer jump to the riflings.

-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

<span style="font-weight: bold">Comparison of Applied Ballistics 175 gr Tactical Ammunition and Federal Gold Medal Match 175 gr Loads</span>

The intent of this test was to compare the new 175 gr Tactical .308 load from Applied Ballistics with the factory FGMM .308 load using the SMK 175 gr projectile. The AB Tactical load was developed by Bryan Litz and utilizes the Berger 175 gr Tactical OTM projectile.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Weapon system and equipment:</span> DTA SRS Covert with 16" 8-twist barrel and rear monopod, Nightforce 3.5-15x50 (F1) scope with MLR2 reticle, Harris BRM bipod, Chrony Beta Master chronograph @ 10 ft from muzzle, Vortex Razor HD 20-60x85 spotting scope.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Conditions:</span> Eastern Nebraska Gun Club, temperature = ~ 65 °F, mostly sunny, 33% relative humidity, barometric pressure = 29.89 (S), wind = steady at 8-12 mph WSW (from ~8:00).

<span style="font-weight: bold">Procedure for test:</span> The weapon was zeroed at 100 yd using FGMM 175 gr ammo. Next, 4 x 5-shot groups were generated using the FGMM ammo. At the same time, 2 x 10-shot muzzle velocity data strings were collected. This process was repeated with the Applied Ballistics 175 gr load. No change was required to re-zero the weapon at 100 yd after switching from the FGMM to the AB load.

Next, the weapon was zeroed at 600 yd with FGMM, followed by 3 x 5-shot groups. This process was repeated with the AB load. The setup I used to test the two different types of ammunition is shown in Figure 1.

<span style="font-weight: bold">
Figure 1. Test setup.</span>
Fig1-1.jpg



<span style="font-weight: bold">Results:</span> The muzzle velocity data I obtained in the two 10-shot strings are shown in Table I.

<span style="font-weight: bold">
Table I - Muzzle velocity data for 16", 8-twist barrel</span>
TableI-3.jpg



Overall, there were no major differences between the muzzle velocity data obtained for the two loads. I had anticipated from Bryan's previous post that the ES and Std Dev values might be slightly lower for the AB load as compared to the FGMM. It is possible that the lack of statistically significant differences between these loads may have to do with the limit of accuracy for velocity measurement with the Beta Chrony. The accuracy given by the manufacturer is for this unit is ± 0.5%, or approximately ± 12.5 fps at these muzzle velocities. Alternatively, the effect of such a short barrel (16") on the velocity determinations may have been an important factor.

The accuracy (precision) for the two loads was determined at 100 yd using 4 x 5-shot groups. The images for the two targets are shown in Figure 2.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Figure 2. 100 yd target images.</span>
Fig2-1.jpg



The accuracy data for the two types of ammunition were determined from the maximum spread as measured center-to-center for each individual group and are summarized in Table II. The values for accuracy in MOA were rounded to the closest one-tenth.

<span style="font-weight: bold">
Table II - Accuracy at 100 yd</span>
X.jpg



Although the average group spread and accuracy in MOA were slightly better for the AB 175 load, the difference was not statistically significant at 100 yd as determined using a single-tailed, paired Student's T-test.

Next, the accuracy (precision) for the two loads was determined at 600 yd using 3 x 5-shot groups. Initially, the weapon was zeroed using an 18" splatter target, then 5-shot groups were generated using three individual 12" splatter targets. The elevation adjustment required for the FGMM at 600 yd was 5.0 mil. This adjustment is close to that predicted by JBM (5.1 mil) for an average muzzle velocity of 2470 fps and pertinent atmospheric conditions. For the AB load, 4.6 mil elevation was necessary, which was slightly less than that predicted by JBM (also 5.1 mil) using the average muzzle velocity of 2450 fps, along with the atmospheric data and a G1 BC of 0.510 as inputs. The reasons for the discrepancy between predicted and actual drops (particularly for the AB 175 load) are unclear. Possibilities to account for this discrepancy may include: a) the Chrony was reading slightly slow; b) the input parameters I used for the AB 175 at JBM were not correct; and c) the Berger 175 gr pills really just fly that much better for a given muzzle velocity.

The images for the two best groups using the AB ammunition ( #2 and #3) are shown in Figure 3. Images for FGMM targets are not shown because even though zeroed on the 18" sight-in target, the groups were all low and left on the 12" targets such that not all the shots were on paper. Despite this, I was still able to obtain accurate measurements of the FGMM groups because the backing target board was new (no previous holes).


<span style="font-weight: bold">Figure 3. 600 yd target images for AB ammunition.</span>
Fig3-1.jpg



The accuracy data for the two types of ammunition at 600 yd were determined from the maximum spread as measured center-to-center for each individual group and are summarized in Table III.

<span style="font-weight: bold">
Table III - Accuracy at 600 yd</span>
Y.jpg



At 600 yd, the average group spread and accuracy in MOA were decreased for the AB 175 load by approximately one-third as compared to the FGMM. This difference is likely to be statistically significant as the p-value determined using a single-tailed, paired Student's T-test was ~0.05. Collectively, these data suggest that the Applied Ballistics do in fact show improved performance at longer range as compared to the FGMM 175 gr SMK factory load. That alone is pretty remarkable. It should be noted that any inherent crappiness in shot groups, data collection, or images, is solely the fault of the OP (me), not the ammo.

The increase in price for the AB load over FGMM calculates to approximately 15 cents per round. In my opinion, that is pretty nominal considering the improved performance, in my hands at least. That is especially true for those like myself that don't currently reload. I look forward to seeing whether anyone else achieves similar positive results with this load (particularly those that are much better shots than I am). Because it is unclear whether any improvement in performance for the AB 175s in this test might have been affected by the Covert's short, fast twist barrel, I will also be comparing these loads using the 22" 11-twist barrel, and will add those results to this post shortly. My overall take on the Applied Ballistics 175 gr Tactical load? I will be buying more.

<span style="font-weight: bold">
Mmmmmm.....Bergers!</span>
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Nice analysis, gstaylorg. I would caution against assuming normal behavior for shot group size distribution. I have done a lot of work with real group sizes and found that they are, in fact, log-normal.

Just take the log of the group size, run your statistical analysis on the log, then when you get your averages and SD's, go e^x to back into the right number. The result will be that the =/- will not be symmetrical. It will work a lot better, and you won't have negative group size as a possibility.
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

gstaylorg,

Thanks for the thorough analysis. Your results are in alignment with what I know to be true about this ammo: the difference is difficult to resolve at close range, but becomes more clear at longer ranges.

Have a good weekend,
-Bryan
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Bryan,
As you designed, tested, and advocated this ammo, I had no doubt it would perform well. My main reason for the test was the 16" 8-twist barrel of my Covert is a little outside the "norm" and I just wanted to see how the combination of your ammo and the short, fast twist barrel fared. I wasn't disappointed, this is some really good ammunition!

I ran the same group test through the 22" 1-twist barrel on Friday. Although I haven't had a chance to do any analysis as yet, I can easily tell just from looking at the targets that the results are the same.

Carter,
Thanks for the suggestion. For the reason you mentioned, I used a single-tailed distribution on the T-test. Possibly not completely kosher from a statistical satndpoint, but close enough for my purposes. I mainly wanted to get a feel for the statistical relevance because of the very small sample size (4 x 5-shot groups at 100 yd, or 3 x 5-shot groups at 600). I follow what you're saying about using log values and that seems like a great suggestion. I haven't had a chance to do that yet, but could you elaborate on your statement that "the +/- will not be symmetrical"? What should I expect to see following conversion to log, stat analysis, and de-conversion back from log to non-log values? Better yet, how should I expect the stat values change when analyzed in this way versus just using the straight group spread numbers? Thanks!
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Bryan, any idea on how these will work in bolt guns seated .020 or so off the lands?

Thanks,
Adam
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam Sorenson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan, any idea on how these will work in bolt guns seated .020 or so off the lands?

Thanks,
Adam </div></div>

Your only way to know is to shoot it, but assuming this is loaded to the industry standard 2.80" COAL, you are going to have a hard time getting them that close to the lands unless your leade is really short.

Josh
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

I guess I wasn't very clear in my post. I'm wondering if anyone has any data or experience with hand loading these for f-class shooting? I have used the Berger 155.5 fullbore with great results seated .020 off the lands and varget. Do they prefer a long jump to the lands?
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

Bryan, Are thease bullets availible molly coated, thanks.
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam Sorenson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I wasn't very clear in my post. I'm wondering if anyone has any data or experience with hand loading these for f-class shooting? I have used the Berger 155.5 fullbore with great results seated .020 off the lands and varget. Do they prefer a long jump to the lands? </div></div>

The VLDs are finicky about seating depth, but the hybrids don't seem to be as afflicted. Just like any load development, what shoots well in my chamber may not in yours. Find a node and adjust seating depth from there.

Josh
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

I wasn't aware you need 100 posts. I deleted it and I apologize!
 
Re: .308 Tactical Ammunition from Applied Ballistics

So they're tactical loads as in???

if it's not recommended for shooting, Will these work well for tactial LE/mil ops?

I mean any bullet is going to stop a human, but just saying
smile.gif
 
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