Anyone currently loading subsonic ammo for this cartridge ?
- Thread starter Markhammett
- Start date
Tagged... Hopefully someone will chime in. I'm really interested in this cartridge, considering building one...
I’m looking at building another integrally suppressed rifle for subs that hits harder than a blackout.
Using QuickLoads as a "reference"...
What barrel length?
What bullet weight would you want to use?
In an AR-10/LR308 I assume.
The problem that I'm seeing so far is a bullet that is, heavy enough, and commercially available.
And the powder capacity of the case
The "standard" heaviest .375 bullets, would be the dangersous game style bullets at 350 grains.
With the heavier, longer bullets, freebore will definately be factor with a sub-sonic 375 Raptor.
Using a Lehigh .375 350 grain bullet, or SMK is probably out the question, with the long sloping ogive
I've built (2) 45 Raptors, and now a WSM on the LR308.
And what I can tell you is this...
The shorter the gas system with the big boomers, the more head aches you'll have.
So If you you guys are looking for 12-16" barrels, on a .375 Raptor, the shorter gas systems are going be a pain in the butt.
Can it be done...yes.
You know the deal...adjustable gas blocks, changing springs/buffers...
What are your numbers...barrel length, bullet weight you are looking at?
What barrel length?
What bullet weight would you want to use?
In an AR-10/LR308 I assume.
The problem that I'm seeing so far is a bullet that is, heavy enough, and commercially available.
And the powder capacity of the case
The "standard" heaviest .375 bullets, would be the dangersous game style bullets at 350 grains.
With the heavier, longer bullets, freebore will definately be factor with a sub-sonic 375 Raptor.
Using a Lehigh .375 350 grain bullet, or SMK is probably out the question, with the long sloping ogive
I've built (2) 45 Raptors, and now a WSM on the LR308.
And what I can tell you is this...
The shorter the gas system with the big boomers, the more head aches you'll have.
So If you you guys are looking for 12-16" barrels, on a .375 Raptor, the shorter gas systems are going be a pain in the butt.
Can it be done...yes.
You know the deal...adjustable gas blocks, changing springs/buffers...
What are your numbers...barrel length, bullet weight you are looking at?
I know a guy who has a 375 raptor he maybe able to give you some tips.
Seems like a lot of people lately jumping on the subsonic bandwagon and chasing maximum bullet weight without understanding bullet performance. There's no point in chasing really heavy non-expanding subsonic bullets.
But they make me giggle! I wish I had a 510 Whisper, just for the clang on steel.
And if 300 blackout and 458 SOCOM are any indicator, there will be good expanding bullets soon if not already. Seems like the expanding subsonic show up late to the party after the cartridge has a following.
Fair enough, and possibly true with the expanding bullets, if the cartridge gains a LOT more popularity, and if you don't mind paying $2/bullet.
My point on the non-expanding subs is that, in something like this 375, it doesn't much matter if you've got a 270gr, or 300gr, or 350 or whatever. It looks like bigger numbers on paper, but doesn't make much difference, if any at all, on an animal or most other targets. Banging steel louder is about the only exception. Bullet profile and other details are much more significant for effect on target, but people get caught up in the easy numbers like bullet weight and don't consider the things that actually matter.
Truth is, the 338 and 375 are both relatively poor choices for subsonic rounds at this time. It's funny, because everyone skips right over the 35 calibers, which actually have a bunch of decent subsonic bullet choices. Go figure.
If you stick to calibers that have bullets for a pistol cartridge or slow rifle cartridge, you'll have much better success with subsonic wildcats. An obvious exception (now) is the 30 cal just because we've been doing subs from that one for long enough to have more options.
I agree, but don't think anyone is picking 375 Raptor doesn't already have cheaper to shoot supersonic rifles already. The Raptor is not as neat, unless you go subsonic.
Just over a buck a bullet.
I agree a 9mm HST is a better expanding bullet than most, but if staying subsonic the only way to optimize is better BC for range and more weight for energy. I think Blackout is popular because of the BC, longer range and better accuracy.
Totally agree that bullet design is critical with subs, have you seen the gel tests on 458 SOCOM subs from Black Butterfly? Impressive!
Black Butterfly Ammunition, Premium, .458 SOCOM, 500 gr, Maker Expanding Copper SUBSONIC "BUZZ SAW" ( Sample Pack)
Black Butterfly Ammunition Black Butterfly Ammunition, Premium, .458 SOCOM, 500 gr, Maker Expanding Copper SUBSONIC "BUZZ SAW" ( Sample Pack) for sale from Black Butterfly Ammunition Store.
www.blackbutterflyammunition.com
Ballistic coefficient doesn’t much matter with subs. It’s not at all like supersonic rounds, although I suspect people thinking it’s important is partly why the 338 and 375 are getting attention lately, mistakenly.I agree, but don't think anyone is picking 375 Raptor doesn't already have cheaper to shoot supersonic rifles already. The Raptor is not as neat, unless you go subsonic.
Just over a buck a bullet.
I agree a 9mm HST is a better expanding bullet than most, but if staying subsonic the only way to optimize is better BC for range and more weight for energy. I think Blackout is popular because of the BC, longer range and better accuracy.
Totally agree that bullet design is critical with subs, have you seen the gel tests on 458 SOCOM subs from Black Butterfly? Impressive!
Black Butterfly Ammunition, Premium, .458 SOCOM, 500 gr, Maker Expanding Copper SUBSONIC "BUZZ SAW" ( Sample Pack)
Black Butterfly Ammunition Black Butterfly Ammunition, Premium, .458 SOCOM, 500 gr, Maker Expanding Copper SUBSONIC "BUZZ SAW" ( Sample Pack) for sale from Black Butterfly Ammunition Store.www.blackbutterflyammunition.com
And in non expanding bullets, which almost all conventional rifle bullets are at subsonic speeds, additional weight gains nothing except increased penetration, in a setup that already penetrates far more than necessary through meat and bone, as well as green wood, etc.
I agree on using bullets designed to expand at subsonic velocities. Not sure why you are bringing up non-expanding bullets for hunting again.
Once using expanding bullets, weight is a big deal. Since velocity is capped, only way to add energy is to add weight. It doesn't matter how well a subsonic bullet expands; the 22lr, 9mm and 458 SOCOM are not in the same class. I would never use 9mm on hogs, but 300BO does an OK job and a 458SOCOM Subsonic anchors them. There are a lot of people being very successful hunting with subsonic bullets.
BC may not matter much at 50yds, but at 200yds, a better BC has less drop, making range estimates less critical and more velocity retention making expansion more reliable.
No, you should do some comparison of high vs low b.c. drops for subsonics. The effect is minimal; even just 50 fps muzzle velocity has more effect at 200 yards than a big change in b.c. value. As I said, it is NOT like for supersonics, where b.c. can be a big deal; it's nearly irrelevant for subs. If you want to get extreme, compare a 200gr 45 ACP at 1,000 fps to a 200gr .30 cal at 1,000 fps; even at 200 yards the actual difference in drops isn't much. (A lot of ballistic calculators don't handle subsonic speeds accurately though, so beware of that, you're better off comparing actual shooting results, as I've been doing for years.)
But false assumptions and lack of knowledge about it, as you've shown, are driving the popularity for high b.c. calibers to be used more for subs lately. I think if more people understood this, the popular choices would be different.
I mention non-expanding subs because those have been discussed a lot, in this thread and many others. People are usually chasing bullet weight without any regard to the more important details. And I never claimed a .22 was as effective as a 458; that's a pretty poor and blatant attempt at a strawman argument, to what end I'm not sure but I'm not interested. I've been shooting and hunting with subsonics for many years, and am not making up or guessing about the facts here.
I try to keep an open mind so I hear you. But, I have played around shooting steel out past 400yds with subs and I recall more holdover / adjustment for some calibers than others. Are you saying that a .45 RN and .308 SMK have the same BC once subsonic? Any articles or tests you can point to?
Read my post again. I didn’t say those two bullets have the same b.c., I said the effect of b.c. at subsonic speeds is mostly insignificant. That shouldn’t be too hard to understand, or to see for yourself if you’re comparing similar platforms with equal zeros. That doesn’t mean comparing your 1911 to a scoped 300 Blk.
I can’t help but
when people ask for “articles” to reference after someone speaks from experience. If you need a gun writer to tell you what they think is true, rather than just trying something simple for yourself, you’re way too lost for help here.If not 375.Read my post again. I didn’t say those two bullets have the same b.c., I said the effect of b.c. at subsonic speeds is mostly insignificant. That shouldn’t be too hard to understand, or to see for yourself if you’re comparing similar platforms with equal zeros. That doesn’t mean comparing your 1911 to a scoped 300 Blk.
I can’t help but
Out of curiosity, what would you suggest for long range subsonic ? 452 or 458 ? 452 has the cheap SubX bullets but 458 got some fancy stuff as well (Maker, Outlaw, etc). Thinking of rebarelling my DTA Covert 308 to a dedicated subsonic.
Ok got mine cycling. 18.9 grains of shooters world blackout over a 400gn Maker TRex (expanding) pill. Swapped out the buffer system for a JP silent capture. Bolt locks back on an empty mag, and will go into battery again with two in the mag. Have not been able to get back to the range to chrono for them. Will check back in!
I’d like to have a smith build me a lightweight bolt action model, but they don’t make the barrels that I would prefer with the twist rate I’d like.
Id love to have a Proof or Bartlein CF barrel thats 1:7 or even 1:6 but they aren’t offered anywhere that I can find. However I have found some 18” with 1/8 twist and the ballistics out to 300 @ 2800fps at the muzzle isn’t bad with a 175grain Cooper solid. I know it’s not as big as you all are wanting, but performance wise it’s pretty dang good!
Id love to have a Proof or Bartlein CF barrel thats 1:7 or even 1:6 but they aren’t offered anywhere that I can find. However I have found some 18” with 1/8 twist and the ballistics out to 300 @ 2800fps at the muzzle isn’t bad with a 175grain Cooper solid. I know it’s not as big as you all are wanting, but performance wise it’s pretty dang good!
Attachments
Why the desire for the extra fast twist? Are there specialty very heavy bullets you’re wanting to use, or is this something to do with mimicking the 8.6 Creedmoor? The stupid fast twist in that one is much more a negative than a benefit, FYI.
Fast enough twist to easily stabilize the longest bullet you want to use is a good thing. But too much beyond that doesn’t seem to offer any real value and can limit bullet choices.
I’m still learning the round. Want this to be an Iowa whitetail deer slaying machine lol. I just ordered a Bowers vers 375 suppressor for it.
Following
P.S. you will like that VERS it is a nice can. Just wish they made more adapters so you could run a muzzle device mount system instead of direct thread
P.S. you will like that VERS it is a nice can. Just wish they made more adapters so you could run a muzzle device mount system instead of direct thread
I have silencerco Omega and Hybrid 46 as well. I bought the ASR adapter so I can use it on any Bravo ASR mount. To me that’s the way to do it.
Attachments
I am also curious about faster twist for the heavy subs. It is definitely sparked by the 8.6blk and I like the idea of the faster spin with expanding subs on fleshy things. I don’t really plan to hunt with subs per se, but if I do I’d like it to be efficient. I have an ar10 raptor, and I’m now imagining a very short barrel bolt action (think pork sword) with a slightly faster twist. I have some cutting edge bullets that are too long to load in a short action magazine, and I’m questioning if they will be stable with a 1-8 twist. If I built this on a long action with a longer throat and a quicker twist, would I be able to shoot the long/high bc subs out a little further?
My buddy has the bowers vers and we wanted to mount it on an ASR bravo brake but decided a mount on a mount wasn’t the move. He stayed direct thread and bowers was less than helpful with their customer service.
Hope everything is good with it then. I’ve never heard a bad thing about the bowers suppressors. I never really thought about the mount on a mount part……. Did he try it? Or just decide against it?
He went against it. They sell an expensive mount that screws into the tube that allows the bravo mount to screw into it. It adds length and more connections than we were comfortable with. It’s a bummer because this is for a .375 ruger hunting rifle that kicks pretty hard without a brake. We hunt bears in coastal Alaska and it would be nice to have the ASR brake on the gun full time to negate the recoil, and be able to put the can on quickly when we want to. The gun is pretty long and cumbersome with the can attached, so we keep it in the pack until the stalk. But if we don’t have time to plan a stalk, it would be nice to have the brake on it for a quick shot.
Good point. Speaking of which, I wonder what kind of barrel life I could expect if I was only shooting subs. Seems like it would be in the 10s of thousands.
I love being in The Hide! I was starting to go through the build process of a 375 Raptor after reading an article comparing it with the 8.6 Blackout and little brother 300. I thought for sure I would be wading into uncharted territory but here’s a fresh thread on exactly what my idea is for a rig.
My thought is this, shooting subsonic in general is awesome. Shooting long range is awesome. Hunting can always be better when using sub Sonic for the extra stealth and saving your ears. Big caliber heavy bullets make all three of these AWESOME.
I disagree with Yondering. I want a sub sonic rifle that I can shoot to 800 or maybe even 1200 yards at my local range. Possibly hunt with on rare occasion, and make steel sing like a Fat Lady at the opera. I hand load. Why would I want to stock multiple different bullets, possibly powder too, have to go through multiple different load developments for each of the bullet/powder combination if I can develop a load that can do all three of those things? I love the idea of the Makers 400 gr expanding sub sonic bullet. It wouldn’t matter what game I was playing I could use the same load. SUBSCRIBED! Keep the info coming!
