4000MR in 6.5 Creedmoor?

[Hondo64d]

Just picked up a jug from Powder Valley. Better hurry, only two left.

Both Speer and Hornady have data for it but has anyone here tried 4000MR in the Creedmoor?

Thanks,

John

 

[supercorndogs]

Yes, i haven't found it to be consistent or accurate in anything I have tried it in. 6 or 6.5 Creed, 280, 22-250 or 300wm.

 

[Hondo64d]

Well... Crap...

John

 

[Mr Tibbs]

Alliant’s isn’t showing any data for 4000MR in 6.5 CM, it maybe to fast for this application . Their only showing RL-16, for the various bullets weights in 6.5 CM

 

[Hondo64d]

Alliant’s isn’t showing any data for 4000MR in 6.5 CM, it maybe to fast for this application . Their only showing RL-16, for the various bullets weights in 6.5 CM

I was more concerned about it being too slow burning rather than too fast. From what I can see in the Speer and Hornady data, its worth trying, showing good velocities with good case fill. I’ll let you guys know.

John

 

[Mr Tibbs]

I was more concerned about it being too slow burning rather than too fast. From what I can see in the Speer and Hornady data, its worth trying, showing good velocities with good case fill. I’ll let you guys know.

John

Well as another option you could just call Alliant Customer Service, and speak to a Tech, perhaps they could give you some guidance on your endeavor.

 

[918v]

Sometimes it’s not a question of burning rate but what it does in a particular application... like bulk density, for example. It may not have enough case fill at the optimum charge weight or maybe too much and you’ll be compressing the shit out of it.

 

[NamibHunter]

Anybody got good results with 4000 MR in 6.5 Creedmoor?

 

[NamibHunter]

I was more concerned about it being too slow burning rather than too fast. From what I can see in the Speer and Hornady data, its worth trying, showing good velocities with good case fill. I’ll let you guys know.

John

@Hondo64d:

Could you manage to get 4000MR to work in your 6.5 Creedmoor?

About to load up a few rounds and do a pressure test tomorrow with 147 ELD-M projectiles.

 

[supercorndogs]

It works fine to excellent depending on your needs. For a 600y hunting round, no problem. For a 1k 2 moa steel dinger, no problem. For me in every cartridge I have tried it in, it has been less accurate than the most popular powders. Varget, RL-15, H4350, H4831SC, and 7977.

 

[NamibHunter]

It works fine to excellent depending on your needs. For a 600y hunting round, no problem. For a 1k 2 moa steel dinger, no problem. For me in every cartridge I have tried it in, it has been less accurate than the most popular powders. Varget, RL-15, H4350, H4831SC, and 7977.

Good to know. What bullet weights did you try, and what speed could you achieve, and what is your barrel length? [Apologies for the million questions…]

Do you think the increase in group size was due to large ES causing more vertical dispersion, or was it just combustion inconsistency that changes bullet exit time (barrel whip inducing more bullet dispersion)? [Not that high speed is really that important, but consistency is. Just curious!]

The 11’th edition of the Hornady load book shows it along with RL26 as the only ones that get a 153 gn to 2750 fps from a 24” barrel. So maybe 50-100 faster than the powders known for top notch accuracy. An extra 100 fps yields only about 0.2 MOA wind drift benefit at 600 yards. But that will be of no use if group size doubles to 1 MOA.

Will do a pressure test tomorrow, if all goes well.

 

[NamibHunter]

Btw Hornady now lists these powders for 147-153 gn projectiles in 6.5 CM. According to Hornady, PowerPro 4000 MR produces (along with RL26) the highest speed for the heavy 147-153 gn bullets, at about 2750 fps, from a 24” barrel.

Interesting that RL26 is known for giving exceptionally good muzzle velocity, but typically not the smallest group size. [RL16 in my experience produces around 100 fps less, but have seen group size below 0.2 MOA.] It seems 4000MR continues in that tradition.

 

[NamibHunter]

4000MR is advertised as a “ball powder”, but under 20x magnification, it is clearly extruded, and then possibly reformed by knocking holes in the two ends of each kernel, presumably to give slightly more surface area and maybe make them fatter?

They really should call it a super short cut (SSC) powder…. “Ball powder” is somewhat misleading.

But have to say the kernels are way smaller than H4350, and it meters really well.

Double base powder, so you can expect good speed, but at the expense of reduced barrel life.

 

[Hondo64d]

@Hondo64d:

Could you manage to get 4000MR to work in your 6.5 Creedmoor?

About to load up a few rounds and do a pressure test tomorrow with 147 ELD-M projectiles.

It gave good velocities but I could not get it to group consistently. Found a guy who wanted to trade me a similar quantity of H4350 for it and I happily did so.

John

 

[NamibHunter]

It gave good velocities but I could not get it to group consistently. Found a guy who wanted to trade me a similar quantity of H4350 for it and I happily did so.

John

Managed to do a pressure test with 4000MR and 147 ELDM’s, and trying to find speed ranges where nice clusters form (where POI, at least vertical, is very similar), even though speed varied a lot.

Savage 12 LRP with a factory barrel with 3,450 rounds down the tube, lands have move forward by 0.2”, so my results will not be representative of the average new rifle/barrel. With factory ammo, the barrel is 120 fps slower compared to new, but ES is still superb and groups well.

Tried 147 ELDM projectiles with 4000MR, in Lapua fully prepped brass, CCI450 primers. I need really long bullets to get close to the lands, aiming for a 20 thou jump. Got up to 2780 fps with 4000MR, and did not hit pressure signs. Primers still have a nice radius and very little primer cratering, and no hard bolt lift. Will try to go a little higher next time. The last three round were all compressed charges, which is not quite ideal.

Would prefer not to publish the load, as i need 1.8 gn more to achieve book speed (due to higher chamber volume, because my effective freebore is so abnormal). [You will get very different results in a new barrel with short freebore. Use a good reloading manual as your guide, start low and work up.]

Found a wide speed range where POI at 200 was clustering tightly, which is a promising sign.

Will also try 153 Atips soon. COAL is a massive 2.984”, so strictly single feed rounds. The one benefit of the lands having moved so far forward after 3,500 plus rounds, is that the heel of the boat tail (pressure ring) is now finally above the donut area ).

A G7 BC of 0.351 for the 147 ELDM, at 2800 fps gives a wind drift result close to a 7 SAUM load from 5 years ago. Bullet and powder technology has moved on a lot.

 

[NamibHunter]

Results from 153 Atip testing with 4000MR:

Got to 2780 fps with a 26” factory Savage barrel before a very feint ejector mark showed up, as well as medium hard bolt life and a hint of primer cratering. 91 degree F. Would consider 2750 as max in my rifle. [Prefer not to publish the load, as my rifle is not representative of a typical setup. Old worn barrels need more powder to get back to the same speed.]

Load was very compressed, so watch out for that. Also the powder is somewhat temperature sensitive, so avoid using max loads developed in winter when the summer days get very hot.

New 26” barrels will likely top out around 2750 as the Hornady load look says. Expect it to be a compressed load.

Is this powder a practical alternative to get long heavy bullets in the 153 to 156 gn range up to descent speed? I think not, unless you have a long freebore: Load density is not ideal in the Creedmoor case for a 147-156 gn long shank bullet that sits so deep in the case. Load will be too compressed.

Note that 3,500 rounds have moved the lands forward in my rifle by 0.2” or more. I can now load very long (COAL of 2.984”) to avoid the donut area, still avoid a jam (aiming for 20-25 thou jump), and that gives more chamber volume, which requires more powder to get the speed to book max. Loading such a long heavy bullet in a new rifle with typical freebore to magazine length will likely not work well (bullet will intrude way too deep into the powder column and cause a compressed load), and i doubt bullet can be seated deep enough to avoid a hard jam, which is not recommended, before the load gets severely compressed.

And the bullet shank will be touching any donut present around the neck shoulder junction, which will not help accuracy.

Bullets in a highly compressed load can also be pushed out gradually in the hours after seating it, which can lead to an unexpected hard jam and an unsafe situation. I had to use an old Phillips ultrasonic toothbrush to settle the powder. A drop tube would have helped here. So please handle with due care.

Once your barrel goes past 2,000 to 2,500 rounds, you might have some success with 147-156 gn projectiles using this powder. While you have normal/typical freebore suitable for say a 140 gn ELDM ,there are better alternative powder/bullet combos available to you. If this is the only powder you can find, you can probably make 140 to 145 gn bullets work well enough in a new rifle.

Found two nodes about 100 fps apart. Higher node appears to be 1.2 gn wide, which should be useful. Have not checked accuracy yet.

 

[OkieMike]

I could swear I've seen recipes for 4000 MR in 6.5 CM somewhere... but I can't remember where. Let me dig around in my manuals.

There just isn't a lot of published data out there for 4000 MR. And that's a shame because I've had really good results with it in my 300 Win Mag... I don't necessarily think it's the best powder out there. But at the time (and still) it was all I could round up in any appreciable quantity.

I'm currently pushing 225 gr ELDM's out of my 26" barrel at an average of 2769 with an ES of 11 and SD of 4. That's with the Hornady book max of 67.6 gr. No pressure signs to speak of so I may see if I can go a bit more and break 2800.

Try it out. If you aren't happy with the results in your 6.5, let me know and I'll take the balance of it off your hands. Lol.

Mike

 

[NamibHunter]

I could swear I've seen recipes for 4000 MR in 6.5 CM somewhere... but I can't remember where. Let me dig around in my manuals.

There just isn't a lot of published data out there for 4000 MR. And that's a shame because I've had really good results with it in my 300 Win Mag... I don't necessarily think it's the best powder out there. But at the time (and still) it was all I could round up in any appreciable quantity.

I'm currently pushing 225 gr ELDM's out of my 26" barrel at an average of 2769 with an ES of 11 and SD of 4. That's with the Hornady book max of 67.6 gr. No pressure signs to speak of so I may see if I can go a bit more and break 2800.

Try it out. If you aren't happy with the results in your 6.5, let me know and I'll take the balance of it off your hands. Lol.

Mike

Thanks for the kind offer.

Yep: Hornady 11’th edition lists 4000MR for 6.5 Creedmoor 140-143 gn and 147-153 gn.

Speed is pretty good, similar to RL-26. Availability is pretty good too.

Will try to optimize seating depth, and test for group size, will also try in my MPA with 1,800 rounds on it.

BTW: Barrel (carbon) fouling was not bad.

 

[supercorndogs]

I was getting ejector marks around 2840 with the 143 ELD in my 26".

I got similar velocities with 4000MR and 4831SC in 280, 300win, 22-250 and 6.5 Creed.

 

[NamibHunter]

I was getting ejector marks around 2840 with the 143 ELD in my 26".

I got similar velocities with 4000MR and 4831SC in 280, 300win, 22-250 and 6.5 Creed.

Good to know! It is hard to find H4831SC right now, and it is useful to have an alternate.

 

[NamibHunter]

Buddy of mine asked for a pound of my 4000 MR stock, and tried it in a relatively new 6.5 Creedmoor Bergara HMR rifle: Got one ragged 5 shot group with 42 gr of powder and Hornady 153 Atips. Group size of round 0.3”. Did not measure speed, which is likely around 2,600 fps - so a fairly tame load. Hornady book max is 44.7 gn for this weight class.]

He is trying to get me to sell him the entire 8 lbs jug!

That Bergara usually shoots 0.5” to 0.6” groups with H4350. Superb rifle for the money. But 4000 MR produced the best load so far for this new rifle, at half the prior group size.