416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

[eddybo]

I am thinking about building a 375/ 416 barret, possibly improved. Just kinda running this around in my head right this moment, but unless someone gives me some info that is going to change my mind, I am going to start ordering stuff pretty quick. Other than the pain in the butt of building my own dies and probably a dedicated fire forming barrel stub, any downside to using this case to build a wildcat?

Yea I know about 375/408 but I already have a 338/408 Im. (338AM) pushing .9 BC bullets 3400 fps. I just want to push the envelope a little and try something a little different. I just have a bunch of unknowns here, like;

1. Brass Quality? (Not too concerned with availability I will have enough brass to wear out a barrel in hand before ordering a reamer)
2. I have never reloaded for the .50. Since the 416 is basically a shortened .50 from my limited reading I am going to need some new equipment. Any suggestions on a press, trimmer, priming tool, etc.
3. Any suggestions on case design, I was thinking that blowing the shoulder out and removing some case taper, kinda like Kirby Allen does with his Allen Magnums, but while leaving the neck as long as feasible.
4. I usually order my reamers from PTG. But I usually order stuff that is in stock, how long for a custom reamer?
5. Barrel life? Will I get 800-1000 rounds. I am not all that concerned about it, but I do want some usuable life outta the barrel after load work is done. I would plan on ordering 2 barrels for starters.
6. Anyone know of anyone who has tried this?

I read a little about the 416 here, but my searchfu is weak.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

That would be a MASSIVE overbore with a .375/416 as the .416 is already overbore. As to presses there are a lot out there right now all the way from the Hornady and RCBS up to the Walnut RCE, Corbin, and Hollywood, also Dillon is going to be releasing a new press supposedly this month.

As to dies I have a preference for CH4D as Dave is a real nice guy who makes good stuff. Primers you can go with M2 or the stocker on the press. The M2 is top of the line but you pay for that.

Cases, I think the IMI's are the holy grail of brass and are real hard to find. I have been using LC with good luck.

You will need to do some annealing so you may want to check into a Ken Light annealer or some other quality annealer.

Trimmers you WILL get the Giraud Power Trimmer as that will be your only choice for what "you" are going to need. Make sure you order the flat blade. It takes the brass down fast then switch to the final blade.

How's that for a start?

 

[wildcats]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

I agree with the Mechanic on the massive overbore of 375/416.

I'm also experimenting with the .416 case.
i'm working with Chris Matthews on a 416/458 Imp. to shoot the Lehigh .458 and GSC .458 projectiles.
I'm also toying with the idea of a 408/416 imp. as well.
PTG makes my reamers.
as far as the case quality,well,i'm not impressed.
taken a closer look at some of the cases with an 8 magnifier,i've noticed some slight cracks on the inside of the necks on some cases wich concerns me a bit when it comes down to necking them up to .458.
i guess only time will tell.
i will keep ya posted when the monster is back from Chris Matthews shop.
and hopefully get some resutls after sending some pills downrange.

 

[MountainRogue]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Sounds great. Screw overbore!

The 416 brass ins't the best for sure, but if you can get your hands on a bunch of TZZ 50bmg and neck it down through a good anneal process you should have the best available.

I don't personally know Mechanic nor Wildcat but I have read many of their other posts, found them knowledgeable, agree with them and they are pointing you in the right direction. All the components listed above are exactly what you need.

I spoke to Randy Dierks about pushing a stainless steel 338/375 pill from a 50bmg wildcat out a 40" barrel, once. Just too much of an entry cost for me with all the other projects going on. But I still think about it once in a while.

One thing for you to consider with your project... You might want to go with a rifle platform that you can switch barrels easy without having to rebuild the whole thing. I think you could get 800 to 1000 out of the barrel before scrapping it. I built my 416 and 50 on an EDM Windrunner just for that reason. I still think about doing the 338 or 375 out of a 50bmg and can just call Bill to make me the new barrels.

No risk, no reward. Balls to the walls on this one. Best of luck.

Mountain Rogue

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mountain Rogue</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't personally know Mechanic nor Wildcat but I have read many of their other posts, found them knowledgeable, agree with them and they are pointing you in the right direction. All the components listed above are exactly what you need.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">Thank you.</span></span>

I spoke to Randy Dierks about pushing a stainless steel 338/375 pill from a 50bmg wildcat out a 40" barrel, once. Just too much of an entry cost for me with all the other projects going on. But I still think about it once in a while.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF6666">Since the AP work so well I would consider a tungsten projo wrapped in a jacket or some form of banding.</span></span>

One thing for you to consider with your project... You might want to go with a rifle platform that you can switch barrels easy without having to rebuild the whole thing. I think you could get 800 to 1000 out of the barrel before scrapping it. I built my 416 and 50 on an EDM Windrunner just for that reason. I still think about doing the 338 or 375 out of a 50bmg and can just call Bill to make me the new barrels.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">Agree totally.</span></span>

No risk, no reward. Balls to the walls on this one. Best of luck.

Mountain Rogue


</div></div>

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Thanks for the direction. I am planning on building it on a Mcmillan repeater, as a switch barrel .50

I think I am gonna do it. I am gonna order a couple hundred pieces of brass tomorrow. It is prollly gonna take me a while to gather componants since I am starting from scratch and have some other projects going already. Is there a decent moderately priced priming tool out there?

Can I turn myself a mandrel and trim that brass in the lathe, like I do some of my other cases?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">No and No.</span></span>


I don't have one but supposedly these work ok from RCBS.

You can get good results from the stock set up on any of the .50 presses.

The M2 is the best on the market and they know it.
http://www.m2precision.com/products/primerseater.html

as for trimming brass on a lathe? Are you kidding me? You will be found hanging from the ceiling using a bed sheet. You need to spend the money on this trimmer buy once cry once.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Is there a decent moderately priced priming tool out there?

Can I turn myself a mandrel and trim that brass in the lathe, like I do some of my other cases?</div></div>

 

[wildcats]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

i load all my big stuff on a Corbin CSP-2 Mega Mite
dies are C&H tool or custom Hornady.
and use the M2 precision primer seater.
as for trimming the cases i have a Forster 50bmg manual trimmer.though that Geraud picture above works great if you are doing alot of cases

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

The reason I am steering him to that trimmer is that he will be trimming the heck out of brass with the .416 and the trimming down further to .375

 

[wildcats]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I am steering him to that trimmer is that he will be trimming the heck out of brass with the .416 and the trimming down further to .375</div></div>LOL,no worries,Mechanic,from a mechanic

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Listen to Mechanic- what he has suggested will save you hours of time and headaches.............

 

[konabully]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

McMillan is starting to build the Tac-50 chambered in .416 Barrett.

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Okay no one talked me out of it. Bought a donor gun today, well pretty sure, just waiting on address and corresponding phone number for verification purposes. Heading over to buy my brass now.
Since this thing is crazy overbore anyway I may as well improve the shoulder and remove case taper a little. Any suggestions on shoulder angle and on freebore if I am planning on shooting 375 rocky mountain bullets?
Has anyone run the 375 rocky mountain bullets over 3200 fps?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Need to run the stuff through quick load and or quickdesign.

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Thank you for reminding me I needed to order quick design. I have used quick load for about 3 years and it has always worked great for me. Since I am not ordering my reamer until I have brass in hand I have plenty of time to wait on it.

 

[C.K]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

For the brass you could try to talk Randy Powell of
Thunder Ammo into sizing down your BMG cases to 416. Then you would have a one step or two step neck down and trim and you should be ready to go.

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Got my reamer and go gauge in, got my donor action, got a couple hundred pieces of brass. All I need is a barrel and a little shop time.

 

[MountainRogue]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Hell yeah, good for you.

Just to motivate you a little more... I know a guy that did a .22/50bmg out of a 46" barrel. Stainless steel projos or something like that. I spoke with Randy D a couple years ago about it. He has 10000+/- stainless 50bmg projos laying around collecting dust from a similar idea.

No such thing as overbore if you have the available funds. Have fun!

 

[mark4567]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

In the Mid 90's FCSA magazine did a write up on a 50/17 They actually got the brass to move that much. But found it too hard to load 250+ grains of stick powder with tweezers one grain at a time!

If you have a CNC lathe available to you. You might want to look at leaded steel for Projo's easy turning and not as hard on the barrel as something like 304 SS.
Bronze might also work for you if you use a 20 to 25% tin bell bronze. I'm making 730gr 50bmg projo's out of leaded bronze which is softer.

 

[lrs50bmg]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Those steel projectiles were made out of 12L14 "Ledloy" steel.

Softer than stainless, and best used in a nitrided bore.

It was the leading edge technology in 1992-1995 FCSA competitions.

Everyone moved to brass or bronze alloys due to poor barrel life with the steel bullets. You never knew if you barrel was going to last 50 rounds or 900 rounds...... usually somewhere in between.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Well Eddybo,

My short reply to this idea is....Hope you have a projectile built for that intended MV range. If not all you will be doing is launching bullet fast and slowing down even faster. So fast that you could possibly not even achieve the supersonic distance of 408CT.

Good Luck

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Yea where was all this helpful advice when I decided to do this

Did yall think I was kidding? I wanted someone to talk me out of this madness.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea where was all this helpful advice when I decided to do this

Did yall think I was kidding? I wanted someone to talk me out of this madness.</div></div>

Man I honestly just seen this thread yesterday on here and someone copy and pasted it to me from LRH yesterday.

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

No problems....I think you were banned when I posted this.

We discussed it briefly when I called you. I will find something to chunk outta this thing. More 375s are showing up everyday. I know the 350 SMK will handle 3600 fps without an accuracy loss. I have never known Kirby Allen to lie about anything and he says he pushed them that fast. I still have some hope of the rocky mountain bullets holding together. As I understand it they have some pretty thick jackets, but we will see. This just an experiment anyway, I will have fun with it regardless.

Thanks for all the responses, I appreciate them all.

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No problems....I think you were banned when I posted this.
</div></div>

I was never banned so I just missed the thread lol


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I know the 350 SMK will handle 3600 fps without an accuracy loss. </div></div>

Yet Bruce Baer had ghost bullets and he was not near that speed

They may have changed something since then.

HAHA experimenting is always fun...give me a call as I am working on similar project too hahahaha

Thanks

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Maybe Kirby and Bruce were using different twist barrels, I dunno.

Any suggestions for twist rates. I have not gotten around to ordering yet. I need two suggestions as I am ordering two barrels. What two twist rates are going to be most likely to work with any bullet available now?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Maybe a gain twist barrel. Also was thinking that if RPM is acceptable I wonder if rifling engraving is maybe to deep and cutting into the jacket a little to much. Maybe a polygonal rifling? What do you think Later?

 

[joe cotts]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

www.ch4d.com has what you need.lilja barrels holds mose of the 1000 ys records. i use these barrels my self and on customers rifles. hope this helps
UDT UNIT

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UDT UNIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">www.ch4d.com has what you need.lilja barrels holds mose of the 1000 ys records. i use these barrels my self and on customers rifles. hope this helps
UDT UNIT </div></div>

Lilja? What about Fedderson and K&P? Lee Rasmussen and his wife hold 13(IIRC)records with the 50BMG in FCSA matches. I was under the impression he uses K&P tubes.

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My short reply to this idea is....Hope you have a projectile built for that intended MV range. If not all you will be doing is launching bullet fast and slowing down even faster. So fast that you could possibly not even achieve the supersonic distance of 408CT.
</div></div>

Not to hijack but I have been seeing this lately and wonder if it is possible. how can shooting something faster slow it down faster? doesn't sound scientific.educate me.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

It is very scientific. Velocity magnitude has a very noticeable correlation to drag values, essentially multiplied by the drag coefficient. Some projectiles will resist drag more than others, so consider this a "drag multiplier" of sorts. The faster you push that projectile, the stronger the drag force pushes against it. Gravity is a constant, but drag is not. It depends on how resistant the projectile is to drag and how fast the projectile is moving (as well as the density of the medium it's passing through).

This is exactly why ELR cartridges are all about finding the proper balance between:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Velocity:</span> to give the projectile energy

<span style="font-weight: bold">Drag Resistance:</span> to mitigate the drag force as much as possible

<span style="font-weight: bold">Mass:</span> to give the projectile enough inertia to carry it far with as little deviation as possible.

*yeah, that's a Newtonian physics equation over my fossil avatar

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Dogtown,


That is the best and easiest description I have seen. Heck I was gonna bust out all the formula dohickies

Thanks

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Thanks - communicating science is my passion

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Ok lets look at billy Dixons shot with a black powder rifle.(1500+ yards) Slow- big- bullet. Are you saying if the the same shot was made at a higher velocity that it would slow down faster and not have gone as far? If the case of the 375/416 lets imagine that it came out at 3800fps it's not going to go less than a 375/408 at 3200.(same bullet) that is what it sounds like to me in what I am hearing. I might just be hearing wrong.LOL

 

[Louis Corkern]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Yes it will slow down way faster because the bullet used is not designed for that speed. That much more speed creates sooo much more resistance on a bullet, so in turn it will drastically reduce its distance. On top of that bullet design not designed to be stable with that speed.

Thanks

 

[MountainRogue]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

To help understand the physics and moreover the concept of drag at higher speeds a graph showing velocity vs. distance traveled (with the same constants being the projos) might help in clarifying the wonders of the universe. Sorry I don't have one to share at this moment. I will search for it but if someone else has such, it would really visually help this discussion.

The next part of this discussion is what I am waiting for...

So what characteristics do you need to build into a projo to travel at the higher velocities (3500fps+)?

Then of course the last question is...

So who can custom manufactur a couple thousand of these high speed low drag pills?

***Or, is the real question... Have we reached the physical limits of projos and drag coefficients with the materials we use today?

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

I think at its simplest form if you stick your hand out of the window at 40 miles and hour the resistance is less than at 60 miles an hour even though your hand retains its same BC.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Yep, the hand in the wind is about as simple of a description as you can get. And as mentioned by Mountain Rogue, the importance of all of this can be seen if you analyze a graph showing velocity and distance traveled over time. If you do different plots for different initial velocities, you should see the boundary plots being ones that fall short and ones that go the distance - however physics tells us that the farthest distance is attained not from the highest velocity but from something about 80-90% of max. In other words, there's a very real point of diminishing returns.

The first time I ever saw this was with the .50BMG SLAP ammo while TDY in Turkey. The M903 SLAP would get to the target really fast, but as soon as we moved beyond 1200 yards the drop was almost exponential while M33 had a much more gradual drop over distance.

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

That is with different projectiles. In the Billy
Dixon example lets say it does slow down. Eventually it will slow down to the speed that of the lower velocity example and you still gained the added speed it had to get to that point therefor it will hit higher not lower.Look at a 308 if you shoot the same bullets but at different speeds at the same angle.etc the faster one will go further not lower. So the speed didn't slow it faster and it will go further.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Yes, but try shooting a 105gr bullet with the same charge weight as a 175gr. The 105 will hit a higher initial velocity, but because its mass gives it less inertia, it cannot adequately fight the drag force. It will get to 300 yards faster than the 175, but it will start to drop very quickly over distance compared to the 175.

That's what I was trying to point out with ELR cartridges - it's all about a delicate balance of mass, velocity and drag resistance.

 

[Jimmym40a2]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

OK - I easily understand that. But we are talking about the same projectile.In this case we are looking at the 375/416 I'm guessing it will push it around 3600. with the same projectile in a 375/408 at 3200 it's going to "go further" with a flatter trajectory. it will not slow faster because it's going faster.it's going to get there sooner if fired from the same position as the 375/408,yada yada.....do you see what I am saying?

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Yes but consider that the drag force isn't a constant. Higher velocities mean stronger drag force and when that force is applied to the bullet over time, the faster one is going to succumb to drag fastest.*

Looking at the time of flight for both, in the first 25%-50% the faster bullet will go father, but it will be losing energy faster because the drag force depleting it is stronger. Again, it's not such a big deal at first, but when you get to 50% of flight time, that stronger drag force has been sapping energy from the bullet and at some point between 40%-60% of flight time the drag force is starting to balance out and then ultimately start defeating the faster bullet.

*I should clarify this part: mass plays an important part in this equation and certain mass/velocity combos will perform better over distance.

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

But at some point the velocities would equal out wouldn't they? Assume 2 400gr projectiles leaving the barrel one at 3500 fps and the other at 3000fps. Wouldn't the bullet traveling 3500 fps at some point down range slow down to 3000fps and at this point have the same drag as the bullet that left the barrel at 3000 fps. At that point wouldn't the faster bullet slow at the same rate? Say the 3500 fps bullet slowed to 3000 at 450 yards wouldn't it travel 450 yards further than the 3000 fps bullet?

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

Are 300gr .338 sierras designed to go 3400 fps? They shoot pretty well at that velocity and sure get to 1400 pretty fast. I just am not gonna ruin my brass pushing them that hard.

 

[JL]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

DIY -version in action:
Trimmin´ with good music


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You need to spend the money on this trimmer buy once cry once.

</div></div>

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

just bumped this up still interested on the bullets being launched too fast thing. Can soemone post a link to something that explains it further

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

I'll see if I can plot a graph for you at some point - just pretty busy at the moment.

Incidentally, I guarantee if you ask people who have shot ELR distances, many will have come across this situation.

 

[eddybo]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll see if I can plot a graph for you at some point - just pretty busy at the moment.

Incidentally, I guarantee if you ask people who have shot ELR distances, many will have come across this situation. </div></div>

Man I still cannot find any scientific principle that will cause an identical bullet launched at a faster speed to continue to slow at an accelerated rate once the velocity slows to match its slower moving twin. Assuming two identical bullets launched at differing even albeit extreme speeds. Rackin my brain here. As I told ya in PM I posted about this on another site, no help there either.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddybo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dogtown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll see if I can plot a graph for you at some point - just pretty busy at the moment.

Incidentally, I guarantee if you ask people who have shot ELR distances, many will have come across this situation. </div></div>

Man I still cannot find any scientific principle that will cause an identical bullet launched at a faster speed to continue to slow at an accelerated rate once the velocity slows to match its slower moving twin. Assuming two identical bullets launched at differing even albeit extreme speeds. Rackin my brain here. As I told ya in PM I posted about this on another site, no help there either. </div></div>

We can all agree that you get to a terminal velocity (like skydiving, you will get to the fastest speed and go no faster) well the bullet will get to a point that it will go no slower barring gravity. So as we go from its initial velocity to its terminal velocity you get its slowing to the lowest speed becomes less and less. Much like two triangles with their points ending at the same point but one more acute than the other (higher speed, and lower speed) they will eventually have the same speed and energy even though at its beginning they started at different speeds and energies. I hope that helps. I am by no means a math major or ANYWHERE NEAR Bryan Litz I have broken open a few good books.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: 416 barret brass quality??+ other ????s

I don't know what else to say on this other than to go out and experience it. If I wasn't so slammed with simulations of pico amino acids these days I'd try to bust out the math for you.