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416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Down Under Hunter

Down Under Hunter

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 11, 2008
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VICTORIA AUSTRALIA
Anyone know much about this round.

Based of 585 Tyranasarus ( spelling ?? ) I think ?? Pushes a 410 VLD at 3200 out of a 32 " barrel with a CHEYTAC length action.

Sounds promising. Not based off the 50 bmg Reciever.

Good or bad ?? ANyone seen a gun in this ??
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Not to sure about this one at all. The .416 is based on a necked down .50BMG. It has not "caught on" yet. Maybe it never will, I don't know depends on Barret I guess. As to the .416 Nemisis, I know Bill of EDM's brother or son was producing the Nemisis an auto .408 Cheytac and EDM is having Thor make their .408 version of the XM rifle and Thor has their THOR Nemesis MKV-NV. I will have to do a little research. DOH? you still trying to go with the .416 instead of the .375 or .408 CT?
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Mech,

I know its a slightly fatter case than the CT in the base. I think 35 deg shoulder. Definitely will go into the shorter CT length action though. I think 40 thou bigger in diameter in the case head

I am familiar with the EDM stuff and it aint those.

Basically gives you a 416 barrett in a much smaller package. Basically the same size gun as a 375/408.

I am still on the fence with cal choise and heard about this wildcat. Looking at wanting a bigger hole in the game at a grand than the 338 will give with the big smk. Brass can be got in Aus too.

Still undecided

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

I think the .416 Barrett hasn't caught on yet because it's not performing to expectations. Then again, it's only been a couple years and it's not unheard of a cartridge taking 10+ years to become "accepted".

As far as I know, EDM is building the XM04 for Thor now. The Thor Nemesis rifle is a multi-cal big bore from Switzerland that is being imported by Thor (aka Knesek). Apparently Swiss export laws may prevent that from continuing next year. Nemesis Arms is an unrelated manufacturer who took over the .308 Windrunner.

As for .416 Nemesis - never heard of it. If it's a .416 bullet in a .408 case, I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's not going to outperform .408 or .375.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Agree on the performance of the .408 cartridge size case with the .416 bullet. Just have to think that "right now" you just can't beat the .408 or .375 for performance and component availability based on performance. DUH, do you have military cartridge restrictions?
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Dogtown,

The case is a 585 case not the gibbs 505. Its bigger in diameter but almost the same length as the 408 CT. Obviously more powder capacity than the CT with a round about the same OAL.

Will any other round with similar action size push a 410 grn VLD at 3200 out of a 32" barrel ? I cant think of one myself ?

Just sounds interesting on paper ?

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Mech,

Right now we are good to go with anything but the BMG for hunting. No weight restrictions either.

A big 40 cal wound channel interests me alot with heaps of LB'S at target !

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

I wonder how much powder a large rifle magnum primer can reliably ignite?Seems like the 408 case size is already at the limit.

Sometimes I have ignition problems,"hangfires" with my 375CT.Especially if it's winter.

Steve
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

I wonder what the damage difference from the 375 cal pill vs a 408 would be ? Depends on the pill I quess ?

I just want to put a significantly bigger wound channel in them !

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DOWN UNDER HUNTE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Will any other round with similar action size push a 410 grn VLD at 3200 out of a 32" barrel ? I cant think of one myself ?

DUH</div></div>

Problem lies within the speed!!! It needs to be understood that speed is NOT king trait in regards to this sort of situation. That speed is nothing if the projectile is not designed specifically for that speed. If that speed is achieved and the bullet is not optimized for it then that kind of speed will cause the bullet to slow down WAY WAY faster than people realize.

Also you mention the 416N has "almost" ballistics as the 416B right? Which means it is still behind the ballistics curve of the 375/408 so why go to more powder and 3" longer barrel to still be behind??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how much powder a large rifle magnum primer can reliably ignite?Seems like the 408 case size is already at the limit.

Steve</div></div>

Very good observation Steve--thats why at one time there was 408 cases that had the primer pockets opened to house the BMG primers but that went away
smile.gif



Thanks
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problem lies within the speed!!!</div></div>

Indeed, the faster a projectile travels through a fluid, the faster it will slow down, for the most part. That's why the ideal ELR rounds have as perfect a balance between mass and velocity as possible. Physics tells us that the faster you move a mass it requires more energy to slow it down. With a projectile moving through a fluid (yes, air is a fluid) there are several factors that bleed energy from the projectile - drag being number one. As Later mentioned, not all bullets are designed for high velocity long term flight. They have to fight drag AND stay stable throughout the length of the trajectory. So it's quite common to push a bullet faster, but not realizing that the drag force acts on it stronger and stronger as you push it faster and faster.

There's really no free lunch with the physics of ELR shooting. Everything is playing against us and each step that gains you an advantage more or less takes away from somewhere else.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Gentlemen RESET TIME:

The large format Nemesis has nothing to do with EDM or Nemesis Arms. It is not produced by Thor either.

EDM arms still produces all of the .408 Windrunner platform rifles. The only exception to that would be the rifles marked CHEYTAC as EDM designed and, at the very beginning "branded" for Cheytac. All early CHEYTAC .408s came from EDM and that has ended.

THOR produces exactly zero .408 rifles. They never did build any .408 rifles. They did (interesting word "did") represent EDM in the Windrunner .408 platform.

Bill Richie does not make the Nemesis Windrunners in Short Action, those are made by David Ives in their entirety. Bill and David are good friends and David's role was to buy the SA brand and take it as far as it could go. David Ives' Small Action Windrunners are made under NEMESIS Arms.

Bill Richie's son, Keary, does not produce either the EDM Arms or Nemesis Arms rifles, but rather Keary produces edmed parts for both his father's and David's firearms.

Dogtown gets it exactly right "The Thor Nemesis rifle is a multi-cal big bore from Switzerland that is being imported by Thor (aka Knesek). Apparently Swiss export laws may prevent that from continuing next year."
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimmy M40a2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://v2.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=149521898
did you see this 416?</div></div>

Yeah, word got out this week that Barrett finally got them ready for public consumption. The only problem I have with it is that it's not really the kind of cartridge you'd want in a semi-auto. The .416 Barrett, as far as I can tell, is designed to compete ballistically with the .408 Cheytac (and consequently .375 as well). Accurate and effective ELR shooting requires a bit of work between shots that more or less negate the advantage of quick follow-up shots, primarily because all variables to a bullet's trajectory are magnified substantially at those ranges. On top of that, a fresh round sitting in a hot chamber while you adjust your firing solution can affect your velocity a bit as well. Lastly, the .50BMG semi has a VERY useful role in an urban environment where vehicular threats are common, especially when armed with with a payload round such as Mk211. Being chambered in .416 completely removes that option, essentially making this rifle an ELR platform, which I've just explained isn't a very good option.

Bottom line - this is really just a civie boomstick...no doubt fun to shoot.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DOWN UNDER HUNTE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Will any other round with similar action size push a 410 grn VLD at 3200 out of a 32" barrel ? I cant think of one myself ?

DUH</div></div>

Problem lies within the speed!!! It needs to be understood that speed is NOT king trait in regards to this sort of situation. That speed is nothing if the projectile is not designed specifically for that speed. If that speed is achieved and the bullet is not optimized for it then that kind of speed will cause the bullet to slow down WAY WAY faster than people realize.

Also you mention the 416N has "almost" ballistics as the 416B right? Which means it is still behind the ballistics curve of the 375/408 so why go to more powder and 3" longer barrel to still be behind??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how much powder a large rifle magnum primer can reliably ignite?Seems like the 408 case size is already at the limit.

Steve</div></div>

Very good observation Steve--thats why at one time there was 408 cases that had the primer pockets opened to house the BMG primers but that went away
smile.gif



Thanks</div></div>

Later,

Very good points you make !

I quess I was interested to see how the wound channel on game would be effected stepping into a 40 cal over the 375 / 350 smk load ? I am not really interested in buying a gun to plink targets at 2500, just after a rifle that has significant improvement and potential to put a vastly increased amount of hurt on big deer out to 1500. I have seen what the bmg will do and quess I was looking at the in between 338 cal to the bmg. The 50 puts big holes in things.

How much more damage is the 375/408 going to do over a well placed 300 smk ?

You guys have far more knowledge than me in these extreme performance cals, so very interested in your thoughts .

i guess their are some guys that want to longest shooting round available and that is not my top priority. I am looking for a 20 lb's ish gun that I can move that will put the most amount of damage on a 600 lb deer out to 1500 yards possible.

Whats your best guess ?

Cheers boys

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

You can build a 375 way lighter than twenty pounds. I am going to build one around eleven pounds plus optics. If there is a game animal on this planet that requires something bigger than a 375 Chey, I aint gonna mess with it.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

I would have to agree with Augustus, if a 375 can't put it down, then you are doing something wrong. Any 300 grn solid or a Woodleigh 350 grn Protected piont Soft nose will do the job, especially when traveling 3200 fps
laugh.gif


Cheers,

Master Diver
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Not so much a case of the 375 CT being able to do it but is it the best for 600 lb game under 1500 yards.

These sambar deer are regarded by almost all guys who come to hunt them as being near bullet proof. This view I might add is also held by most US clients that have shot truck loads of elk etc. Not a debate about whats harder to kill but trying to paint the right picture of the intended quarry.

They will often carry well placed shots long distances. Trouble is they live mainly in real tiger country where 2 bounds and they are gone. They might only go 100 yards from a lung hit with a 338 / 300 smk but with the bullet slowing down and no bones except ribs smashed , the bullet leaves you little sign to follow. Blood, tissue and anything else to help the recovery. Alot of game getting taken I see on youtube etc at range are in open country where the spotter/ shooter have the animal in sight well after the shot to visually see where he ends up.. Not the case here.

I want carnage at impact and a trail to follow and have seen what a bmg will do at a grand and loved it !

I guess if a gun will shoot 2200 or 2700 is secondary as opposed to what the bullet will deliver to the animal at all practical and ethical shooting distances within my ability.

Plinking rocks is fun but I wont step out of my 338 EDGE unless I see big benefits in the damage the round will inflict on the game. This is why I wonder if a 40 cal might be better.. bigger frontal surface, bigger wound channel with the right bullet ? Might not be as flat in traj but what would the damage look like between the two with similar shot placement ?

I am really interested in first hand long range hunting experience from guys that are using them for the purpose I speak of. I know alot of guys that shoot targets all year but would not know the first thing when it came to terminal performance and reliabilty on big game like elk, sambar etc. I started using the 338/300 smk combo before anyone else I know of down here and I was laughed at when I said I was using a match bullet.. The same guys now are building their own 338 boomers with stockpiles of matchkings.. Go figure !

If anyones got any pics of kills with a 375 CT I'd sure love to see the mess they can make .

Good to toss it around and get others views hey !

Cheers boys !

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Since it is at 1500 yards maybe just stick with the .408 It is starting to get some good bullets out there.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Jimmy,

Thanks for the link mate ! I had seen that one too. AS yet I have not seen anyone shoot any big stuff at range with the 375 or straight 408. Really looking forward to seeing the damage past 1000 these guns inflict.

Out to 700 on sambar specifically I have been very happy with the EDGE. Fallow deer are fair game miles beyond that though ! But this gun was built for sambar and I there could be a caliber/projectile combo that will cause more damage on themat between 1000-1500 The damage that smk does is horrific out to 700-800! But when it gets to a grand and assuming you dont hit shoulder blade the sign the bullet leaves has been tiny. The entry hole particuarly is like a needle..at times almost impossible to find ?

Still throwing it around !

DUH

PS Jimmy... Send down that EDM and I'll post some wound channels !
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

I wish we could use them for hunting but they are a no.no !

My research has showed few guys actually putting these big guns into the long rnage hunting arena yet. Therefore not alot of actual first hand pics and testimony as to the damage they inflict at these ranges. I still have to convince myself that the purchase is worth the terminal gain.

How do you think a 350 smk would go against a 750 amax anyway ? This could be the ticket -

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f25/375-allen-magnum-repeater-42384/

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

How can someone say that the 416 B is not performing, what are you comparing it to? Also i would not be comparing any cal. that is being shot out of a barrett rifle. Let us benchrest guys build a couple made out of the right componets to see if it performs. I'll have my custom 416 B back any day, by spring you will have an answer if it will perform.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Hey have at it. I hope it does. Considering I have a huge chunk "O" money into an M96 Windrunner and it is easy to get a .416 barrel for it and use the same bolt. However, It has not shown to be a proven round like the .408 and .375 Like it all you want but it just is not performing "right now". As to what ELR's am I comparing them to? Easy the only ones that have been viable right now. .50BMG, .50DTC, .460, .416 Barret, .408CT, 375CT, and the .338LM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stenger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can someone say that the 416 B is not performing, what are you comparing it to? Also i would not be comparing any cal. that is being shot out of a barrett rifle. Let us benchrest guys build a couple made out of the right componets to see if it performs. I'll have my custom 416 B back any day, by spring you will have an answer if it will perform.</div></div>
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stenger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can someone say that the 416 B is not performing, what are you comparing it to? </div></div>

Because I have enough personal experience pulling the trigger on more than one different built ones and it does NOT perform better than the 375/408 round (and not talking about out of Barrett rifles either). The people that endorse the 416B as performing are the "faster is better crowd" which we all know that not to be true in the ELR arena.
There is a reason the mastermind of the 416B LEFT the company...cause he wasn't ready to release the round but higher powers needed it "public" right then
smile.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stenger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Let us benchrest guys build a couple made out of the right componets to see if it performs. I'll have my custom 416 B back any day, by spring you will have an answer if it will perform.</div></div>

Yea lets do that!! Lets take that "BR" guys rifle out to my place in SW Texas where a 2mph wind blows enough sand dust to choke a mule and see how that rifle performs. Lets take that rifle up to Northern Utah where it is cold and the condensation from your hot breathe freezes the back of the bolt, etc. And I only bring those select examples up because you brought up BR in a thread about hunting lol.

Also generally speaking when comparing ELR systems it is not done at say 1000 yards, it is done to the last 5-10% of supersonic range or beyond. Any of the "known" ELR systems can perform at measely 1000 yards.

Thanks
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Later,

Have you got any pics of big critters, hit at range with either the 375 or 408 CT ? And in your experience what would cause the most destruction, wound channel etc out to 1500 ?

I know they will all get it done but looking to see if maybe a 40 cal with leave more to follow than the 375 etc ?

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DUH,

You may want to look into the 460 Steyr for your intended desires.

Sorry no pics.

Thanks</div></div>

Later,

The Steyr rifle looks like a piece of *&%# ! What is the rounds parent case ? Know anyone who has done a custom on it ?

Cheers

DUH
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

.460 Steyr is a necked down BMG case.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DOWN UNDER HUNTE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Later,

Have you got any pics of big critters, hit at range with either the 375 or 408 CT ? And in your experience what would cause the most destruction, wound channel etc out to 1500 ?

I know they will all get it done but looking to see if maybe a 40 cal with leave more to follow than the 375 etc ?

DUH </div></div>

Would like to see that also

 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT action

Sorry for the complete noob question, but when shooting for game at distance are most people using match bullets or hunting type boat tails? I would think for game you would want to stay with a .375 or .416 as they have been produced. Is that true of the .408 now?
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT act

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentlemen RESET TIME:

The large format Nemesis has nothing to do with EDM or Nemesis Arms. It is not produced by Thor either.
Dogtown gets it exactly right "The Thor Nemesis rifle is a multi-cal big bore from Switzerland that is being imported by Thor (aka Knesek). Apparently Swiss export laws may prevent that from continuing next year."

</div></div>

To get the record straight: the OM 50 Nemesis heavy sniper gun is procuded by AMSD Geneva Switzerland; AMSD is having discussions with Thor / Knessek for an eventual dealership. Be it clear the OM 50 will always be produced in Switzerland and branded under its original name (so no "Thor Nemesis"). The above gun can also be produced optionally in the following calibers:
460 Steyr
510 DTC
there is also a Reduced Caliber Training Kit

Furthermore AMSD has a brand called "Nemesis" but this has noting to do with "Nemesis Firearms".

On December 13, the Swiss people voted, with a very large majority (68.9%,) against any prohibition with regard to exportation of weaponry & military equipment. Off course, Switzerland has very stringent export regulations, but, friendly nations, such as the USA, can and will be supplied with our equipment.

I trust this clarifies the matter.
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT act

Darius; Is Thor Global as os 1/01/2010 still selling the Nemesis 50BMG. Chandalar
 
Re: 416 Nemesis- 416 Barrett ballistics w/ CT act

DUH. The biggest problem I have found with my 416B is the lack of hunting projectiles that have a high BC .8 plus.
I have some coming from the States at the moment & soon I may have 3 different ones to try
grin.gif

These are copper jacket alloy nose like the 50 Amax, but they also have a rebated tail.
I also have some coming to try in the Edge
smile.gif

I think you NEED to have this type of projectile for hunting. I don't think the monolithic ones would do the job reliably.
You need to bear this in mind when deciding on the calibre, I don't think the 375, 350 SMK has a high enough BC for proper LRH.
My 416 loves the GS 420sp but they are expensive & I wouldn't use them on game.
As far as a portable rifle goes I think anything bigger than the 408 case will be difficult/expensive, even the 408 case is marginal.
If I wanted something betwen my Edge 9.5 lbs & my 416 30 lbs I would most likely build a 375-408, but @ 17-20 lbs it's still awfully heavy
grin.gif
May be I need to go to the gym ..... ALOT
smile.gif
 
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