Sidearms & Scatterguns 45 ACP double charge

[Ark. Trapper]

I was shooting my 45 this morning when I had a helluva case failure. The only thing I figure is a double charge. I'm loading 5.3 grains of WW231 behind a 230gr RN cast bullet. As you'll see from the pics the case ruptured just in front of the case head and all the hot gas went down thru the magazine and blew it all to hell. It also broke the firing pin off in the primer. The gun was otherwise unharmed. Luckily I didn't recieve any bodily harm, just some powder residue in the eyes (no I didn't have glasses on, which was stupid). Here's some pics:

 

[Captramrod01]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Same thing happened to a buddies Kimber, except his barrel bulged and split. Glad to see your alright.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Dillon 550b?

 

[swordfish]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

I never had any problems with dillons powder charge changing after setting

 

[akabaron]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

pretty hard to put over 10g of 231 in a 45 acp case with out seeing it. Had to fill it to the top nearly

 

[dvdt]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Yikes! Glad you're OK.

Reminds me I need to rig up a small light or something on my 650 asap...

 

[swordfish]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dvdt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yikes! Glad you're OK.

Reminds me I need to rig up a small light or something on my 650 asap... </div></div>

I run a powder check in one station

 

[Ark. Trapper]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dillon 550b?</div></div>
No 427 that's what's so damn bad. I don't have a progressive press! I'm not sure what the hell happened.

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Wondering,

Because of the way the case looks, could it have not been fully supported? Similar to Glock .40 and 10mm. Never heard of it in .45. Has the feed ramp been altered from stock?

Could your firing pin have broken causing it to fire out of battery? Kinda like a slam fire?

Could the bullet have been pushed back during cycling running up the pressure. Do you have any more ammo from that loading session? Can you push the bullets in deeper by hand?

Pure speculation on my part.

Maybe it was "just" an overcharge.

Glad you're OK.

 

[doc76251]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halfnutz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wondering,

Because of the way the case looks, could it have not been fully supported? Similar to Glock .40 and 10mm. Never heard of it in .45. Has the feed ramp been altered from stock?

Could your firing pin have broken causing it to fire out of battery? Kinda like a slam fire?

</div></div>

These 2 answers. From the brass the case was not fully chambered and from your own words the firing pin was broken. In the pic the firing pin strike was at 12:00 from the blow out which if you check will probably match your feed ramp pretty closely. The firing pin was stuck "out" and created a slam fire effect. You were lucky in many respects.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Badshot308]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Did that round fire on it's own as the slide went into battery, or did it fire and rupture when you pulled the trigger? I've never used WW231 so I'm not familiar with it's loading density, but I have loaded 10 grains of PowerPistol in Starline 45 Super cases behind a Sierra 230 JHP. Hot load, but that much powder will fit. The main difference between the ACP and the Super cases is a beefed up internal web area to prevent ruptures like that. One of the modifcations made to 45 Super pistols is a stronger firing pin spring. The reason is the faster unlocking of the action requires the firing pin to retract faster back into the slide. Either you had an out of battery discharge as stated above, or you accidently loaded to 45 Super pressures or maybe a little beyond.

 

[pepperbelly]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halfnutz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wondering,

Because of the way the case looks, could it have not been fully supported? Similar to Glock .40 and 10mm. Never heard of it in .45. Has the feed ramp been altered from stock?

Could your firing pin have broken causing it to fire out of battery? Kinda like a slam fire?

</div></div>

These 2 answers. From the brass the case was not fully chambered and from your own words the firing pin was broken. In the pic the firing pin strike was at 12:00 from the blow out which if you check will probably match your feed ramp pretty closely. The firing pin was stuck "out" and created a slam fire effect. You were lucky in many respects.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

I agree. If it was a double charge I would expect to see the primer flowing into the firing pin hole and a severely flattened primer. I would also expect to see a shiny case head where it would have slammed onto the breech face.

For one reason or other it fired out of battery. I also agree that, for some reason, your firing pin was stuck out. Either the case caught on the ramp, or the firing pin struck the primer just before it went into battery hard enough to ignite the primer.

Jim

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Glad you're unharmed, but I bet I can guess who will be wearing safety glasses from now on

 

[Ark. Trapper]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Thanks for all the replies guys, very helpful. First of all no it was NOT a slam fire. Second, the gun is a completely unmodified Taurus PT1911. Thirdly, the bullets have a nice crimp and no movement. Fourtly, yes Terror I will be wearing glasses from now on!!! I'm not sure how but firing out of battery is got to be what happened. The rupture matches the feed ramp exactly. Oh well, nobody hurt and a lesson or 2 learned. I'm gonna replace the firing pin and shoot the hell out of it.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: 45 ACP double charge


A friend of mine and I were firing his PT1911 when something eerily similar occurred.

 

[2Shots]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

I used to shoot 45's all the time in the early days of IPSC before the 38 super took over. Several of us that shot a lot had it happen. Typically they looked a lot like that. I know that several things can lead to 45acp failure, the constant stretching of the case and weaking at the head from numerious firings. We usually attributed that to reloading the case to many times, we never really kept track and usually and mixed head stamps, most of it being ex military. And the design of the barrel ramp allowing the case to be exposed more on the bottom for that 1/2 moon section. Of course we all used to dremel and polish those ramps, being the expert gunsmiths that we were!! We may have over ground a few! Glad you didn't get hurt. For those that haven't had this happen, it blew unburned powder back in my face so hard it embedded into my skid and bled from numerious spots, thank goodness I had safety glasses on. And the palm of my hand felt like somebody smacked it with a steel ruler! I would for sure have a good pistol smith look it over, it can damage more than the eye can see.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halfnutz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Could the bullet have been pushed back during cycling running up the pressure. Do you have any more ammo from that loading session? Can you push the bullets in deeper by hand?

</div></div>

This would be my guess. Lead bullets are prone to being pushed back during cycling, even with a good crimp. A double charge would likely have split the barrel and bulged the slide.

Try loading a round from the mag by dropping the slide from the slide lock. Eject the round and measure to see if any set-back occurred.

 

[pepperbelly]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

I have shot literally tens of thousands of .45acp over the years in both NRA Bullseye pistol and falling plate matches. I load a 200gr LSWC over 4.5gr WST. I have never had something like that happen- ever. I have also never had a problem with the lead bullet being pushed deeper into the case. I guess if you tried to apply too much crimp it might let the bullet be seated a little deeper when it hits the feed ramp, but if that much crimp is applied it may not headspace on the case mouth. A lot don't actually headspace on the case mouth anyway but they are held in place by the extractor. It isn't supposed to but it does happen if the case is a little short.
If not enough crimp is applied the round will not feed into the chamber, The slide won't close either.

If it didn't slamfire I think it would have to be a partially unsupported case. Unless the slide is closed and fully in battery the trigger should not be able to be pulled dropping the hammer. An overcharge would show other signs than a ruptured case.

Jim

 

[Downzero]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

You shouldn't be applying any "crimp" anyway. The purpose of the crimp die is to remove the "bell" from the case, not to "crimp" the bullet into it. Tension comes from the sizing, not crimping, operation.

 

[pepperbelly]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You shouldn't be applying any "crimp" anyway. The purpose of the crimp die is to remove the "bell" from the case, not to "crimp" the bullet into it. Tension comes from the sizing, not crimping, operation. </div></div>.

This is correct. The taper crimp does not do what a roll crimp for a revolver does. If too much crimp is applied especially with a lead bullet you will actually have less tension on the bullet.

Jim

 

[polish handgunner]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

Many years ago i had a similar case failure in my Colt Govt Mdl 38 super.

My magazine only had a bent follower.

The right plastic grip panel split in two - i am left handed.

I sent the remaining ammo to Winchester Western.

Their tests indicated that the pressures were normal but the brass was fatigued due to excessive reloading.

At the time, 1979, 38 super brass was hard to find.

 

[TrialByError308]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

man, ive never seen that number before. ive seen people shoot a 5.45X39 out of a 223 and a double charge shot our of a rem 700 but never seen a bullet explode.

 

[RockSteady]

Re: 45 ACP double charge

glad ur ok! remember the glasses next time...