Ok so reading this board .. I have decided to move from a leupy Mark 4 4.5 to 15 MOA to a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 MilRAD but the next question is a bit harder. All my scopes before were 50mm so all my lens shades and caps and of course rings are based on 50mm size. Is moving to 56mm really worth the cost of new rings and accessories?
Rifle Scopes 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
- Thread starter Kevlars
- Start date
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
I don't think so but thats just me. I have 56 on most of mine and when I look through the other I don't see anydifference in normal lighting.
I don't think so but thats just me. I have 56 on most of mine and when I look through the other I don't see anydifference in normal lighting.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
Do you plan on doing a lot of shooting/hunting in low light conditions?
Even if your answer is yes, from what I understand the extra light that the 56 brings in is negligible at best.
Don't take it from me though, I'm new to this.
Do you plan on doing a lot of shooting/hunting in low light conditions?
Even if your answer is yes, from what I understand the extra light that the 56 brings in is negligible at best.
Don't take it from me though, I'm new to this.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
I agree. I have NF with both 50 & 56 and cannot tell the difference. Sometimes I even think the 50 is cleaner and crisper.
I agree. I have NF with both 50 & 56 and cannot tell the difference. Sometimes I even think the 50 is cleaner and crisper.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
I have both sizes. If you are already set up for 50mm, don't bother changing. You will not notice a difference, especially not during day time shooting. Low light conditions, maybe.
I have both sizes. If you are already set up for 50mm, don't bother changing. You will not notice a difference, especially not during day time shooting. Low light conditions, maybe.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apophas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so reading this board .. I have decided to move from a leupy Mark 4 4.5 to 15 MOA to a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 MilRAD but the next question is a bit harder. All my scopes before were 50mm so all my lens shades and caps and of course rings are based on 50mm size. Is moving to 56mm really worth the cost of new rings and accessories?</div></div>
no, but that doesn't mean your shades, caps, etc... will work anyway.
For example a Schmidt 56mm is smaller than a NXS 56mm (exterior measument)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apophas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so reading this board .. I have decided to move from a leupy Mark 4 4.5 to 15 MOA to a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 MilRAD but the next question is a bit harder. All my scopes before were 50mm so all my lens shades and caps and of course rings are based on 50mm size. Is moving to 56mm really worth the cost of new rings and accessories?</div></div>
no, but that doesn't mean your shades, caps, etc... will work anyway.
For example a Schmidt 56mm is smaller than a NXS 56mm (exterior measument)
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
I have both as well and can't tell the difference either. I usually don't shoot in the late evening but on very cloudy days I don't see any diference. I'd stay with the 50mm.
I have both as well and can't tell the difference either. I usually don't shoot in the late evening but on very cloudy days I don't see any diference. I'd stay with the 50mm.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
You get a rubber lens protector and sunshade with NF scopes (new).
Only once have I seen one makers sun shade work on another's scope. They are not a universal fit.
You get a rubber lens protector and sunshade with NF scopes (new).
Only once have I seen one makers sun shade work on another's scope. They are not a universal fit.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobertB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think so but thats just me. I have 56 on most of mine and when I look through the other I don't see anydifference in normal lighting. </div></div>
I don't see the difference either.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobertB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think so but thats just me. I have 56 on most of mine and when I look through the other I don't see anydifference in normal lighting. </div></div>
I don't see the difference either.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
The cost of accessories shouldn't be the issue. The question is whether you want to be forced to mount the scope higher on the rifle. All my NF scopes are 50mm and I have not found a need or an advantage to go to the larger objective.
The cost of accessories shouldn't be the issue. The question is whether you want to be forced to mount the scope higher on the rifle. All my NF scopes are 50mm and I have not found a need or an advantage to go to the larger objective.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
I use NF and Badger rings. The only way to be certain is to measure it, and there's a sticky on that subject in the optics section:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1433025#Post1433025
I use NF and Badger rings. The only way to be certain is to measure it, and there's a sticky on that subject in the optics section:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1433025#Post1433025
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaroguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the 56mm you might need higher rings. Try not to mess up a proper cheek weld for a scope that's negligibly bigger. </div></div>
Dude seriously? The proper rings difference between a 50 and 56mm exit objective isn't going to screw with your cheekweld in any significant way - that will be affected if you increase the cant on your base from say 0 deg to 25+ MOA which will also create a more significant clearance issue without the appropriate ring height.
However, depending upon the cant on your base the exit obj. bell may be hitting your barrel shank and not allow use of a bikini or BC cover to clear.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaroguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With the 56mm you might need higher rings. Try not to mess up a proper cheek weld for a scope that's negligibly bigger. </div></div>
Dude seriously? The proper rings difference between a 50 and 56mm exit objective isn't going to screw with your cheekweld in any significant way - that will be affected if you increase the cant on your base from say 0 deg to 25+ MOA which will also create a more significant clearance issue without the appropriate ring height.
However, depending upon the cant on your base the exit obj. bell may be hitting your barrel shank and not allow use of a bikini or BC cover to clear.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mavrick10_2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The proper rings difference between a 50 and 56mm exit objective isn't going to screw with your cheekweld in any significant way - that will be affected if you increase the cant on your base from say 0 deg to 25+ MOA which will also create a more significant clearance issue without the appropriate ring height. However, depending upon the cant on your base the exit obj. bell may be hitting your barrel shank and not allow use of a bikini or BC cover to clear. </div></div>I'm not so sure:
How many thousanths at the rifle is -25 MOA?
How much higher rings do you need to go from 50mm to 56mm?
Which one is greater?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mavrick10_2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The proper rings difference between a 50 and 56mm exit objective isn't going to screw with your cheekweld in any significant way - that will be affected if you increase the cant on your base from say 0 deg to 25+ MOA which will also create a more significant clearance issue without the appropriate ring height. However, depending upon the cant on your base the exit obj. bell may be hitting your barrel shank and not allow use of a bikini or BC cover to clear. </div></div>I'm not so sure:
How many thousanths at the rifle is -25 MOA?
How much higher rings do you need to go from 50mm to 56mm?
Which one is greater?
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
You'll get an extra 10 to 15 minutes of shooting light at dusk in my opinion and experience. That is, if you hunt with your outfit, it may be the difference in telling what is a shootable buck and what isn't.
You'll get an extra 10 to 15 minutes of shooting light at dusk in my opinion and experience. That is, if you hunt with your outfit, it may be the difference in telling what is a shootable buck and what isn't.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
Just measure how much clearance you have now and see if it is 3 mm or a little more to be safe
Just measure how much clearance you have now and see if it is 3 mm or a little more to be safe
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll get an extra 10 to 15 minutes of shooting light at dusk in my opinion and experience. That is, if you hunt with your outfit, it may be the difference in telling what is a shootable buck and what isn't. </div></div>Again I'm not so sure. If you want any meaningful performance in low light you will need to turn the magnification down to 6-8x anyway. What are the differences in specs (exit pupil) between the two scopes at 6x? In my experience it's not enough to be able to tell any difference. Besides, coatings have more effect on light transmission than does the size of the objective, which again leads to very little difference assuming the same scope with only a different objective. And between two individual scopes of the same make, what if the 50mm NF has better glass and better light transmission than the 56mm NF?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll get an extra 10 to 15 minutes of shooting light at dusk in my opinion and experience. That is, if you hunt with your outfit, it may be the difference in telling what is a shootable buck and what isn't. </div></div>Again I'm not so sure. If you want any meaningful performance in low light you will need to turn the magnification down to 6-8x anyway. What are the differences in specs (exit pupil) between the two scopes at 6x? In my experience it's not enough to be able to tell any difference. Besides, coatings have more effect on light transmission than does the size of the objective, which again leads to very little difference assuming the same scope with only a different objective. And between two individual scopes of the same make, what if the 50mm NF has better glass and better light transmission than the 56mm NF?
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
What a bigger objective buys you is being able to dial up the magnification a little further before the image starts getting darker.
Once the exit pupil of the scope (which at the relevant magnifications is objective size divided by magnification, so it decreases with increasing magnification) gets smaller than your eye pupil, the image gets darker. Now as long as the exit pupil of the optic is bigger than the eye pupil, there will be no difference in image brightness, so at lower magnifications there will be no difference in brighness.
Assuming that the eye pupil opens up to 7mm (this varies greatly for different people and decreases with age, 7mm is an average value for a younger person), the "brightness threshold" is at ~7x for a 50mm objective and ~8x for a 56mm. At 7mm, there will be no difference in brightness, same for higher magnifications and bright daylight, where the eye itself limits the amount of light by adjusting the pupil size.
That 7mm average value and the technical data of common low light optics is also the reason while people believe that you "cannot use more than 8x at night". 56mm/8=7mm, so a 56mm optic will produce a 7mm exit pupil at 8x magnification. First of all, not everyone's pupil opens that far even under low light conditions, so if your pupil only goes to 5mm for example, you may as well crank up the magnification to about 11x and enjoy more magnification (=better resolution/detail recognition) at the same brightness level.
With any given maximum eye pupil size, a bigger objective lens will let you dial magnification a little higher before the disadvantages of a darkening image outweigh the advantages of higher magnification. Where that threshold is is something everyone has to find out for himself.
All else being equal (impossible to tell whether this is the case without insight into the engineering, so this is just for the sake of understanding of general tendencies), the smaller objective scope will produce a better image in good light conditions because optical aberations increase with bigger objective size at a given focal length.
An exit pupil that is bigger than the eye pupil will allow for more "misalignment" of the eye behind the scope, making it easier to pick up the sight picture with a sloppy cheek weld and generally making the view more comfortable.
Again, in a nutshell: Bigger objective = more usable magnification in low light conditions, no difference in image brightness below a certain magnification threshold, no difference in image brightness in daylight unless extreme magnification is involved.
What a bigger objective buys you is being able to dial up the magnification a little further before the image starts getting darker.
Once the exit pupil of the scope (which at the relevant magnifications is objective size divided by magnification, so it decreases with increasing magnification) gets smaller than your eye pupil, the image gets darker. Now as long as the exit pupil of the optic is bigger than the eye pupil, there will be no difference in image brightness, so at lower magnifications there will be no difference in brighness.
Assuming that the eye pupil opens up to 7mm (this varies greatly for different people and decreases with age, 7mm is an average value for a younger person), the "brightness threshold" is at ~7x for a 50mm objective and ~8x for a 56mm. At 7mm, there will be no difference in brightness, same for higher magnifications and bright daylight, where the eye itself limits the amount of light by adjusting the pupil size.
That 7mm average value and the technical data of common low light optics is also the reason while people believe that you "cannot use more than 8x at night". 56mm/8=7mm, so a 56mm optic will produce a 7mm exit pupil at 8x magnification. First of all, not everyone's pupil opens that far even under low light conditions, so if your pupil only goes to 5mm for example, you may as well crank up the magnification to about 11x and enjoy more magnification (=better resolution/detail recognition) at the same brightness level.
With any given maximum eye pupil size, a bigger objective lens will let you dial magnification a little higher before the disadvantages of a darkening image outweigh the advantages of higher magnification. Where that threshold is is something everyone has to find out for himself.
All else being equal (impossible to tell whether this is the case without insight into the engineering, so this is just for the sake of understanding of general tendencies), the smaller objective scope will produce a better image in good light conditions because optical aberations increase with bigger objective size at a given focal length.
An exit pupil that is bigger than the eye pupil will allow for more "misalignment" of the eye behind the scope, making it easier to pick up the sight picture with a sloppy cheek weld and generally making the view more comfortable.
Again, in a nutshell: Bigger objective = more usable magnification in low light conditions, no difference in image brightness below a certain magnification threshold, no difference in image brightness in daylight unless extreme magnification is involved.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
David S... nice post. My other hobby is Astronomy as I have an observatory in my back yard so I understand optics with respect to total darkness .. I forgot that there is a limit to when the larger objective loses its affectivness.
thank you again
David S... nice post. My other hobby is Astronomy as I have an observatory in my back yard so I understand optics with respect to total darkness .. I forgot that there is a limit to when the larger objective loses its affectivness.
thank you again
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
Great post David S
I haven't read the sticky's in a while but I think your post sould be included, as it is very useful information.
SScott
Great post David S
I haven't read the sticky's in a while but I think your post sould be included, as it is very useful information.
SScott
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
David S.
I compared some quality scopes after sunset. The darker it got the more I had to turn up the power to see the detail I chose to utilize. The scopes dropped out of the "competition" with the smallest objective being the first to "fail".
Since I am old, maybe my pupils only dialate to 3 1/2 or 4. I don't know. Each of us has to deal with the hand we are delt.
David S.
I compared some quality scopes after sunset. The darker it got the more I had to turn up the power to see the detail I chose to utilize. The scopes dropped out of the "competition" with the smallest objective being the first to "fail".
Since I am old, maybe my pupils only dialate to 3 1/2 or 4. I don't know. Each of us has to deal with the hand we are delt.
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Old man now</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The darker it got the more I had to turn up the power to see the detail I chose to utilize.</div></div>But the darker it gets the more I turn the power down, not up.
Size of the objective divided by magnification equals exit pupil. 50mm at 7x in the dark equals 56mm at 8x in the dark. What's the meaningful difference?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Old man now</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The darker it got the more I had to turn up the power to see the detail I chose to utilize.</div></div>But the darker it gets the more I turn the power down, not up.
Size of the objective divided by magnification equals exit pupil. 50mm at 7x in the dark equals 56mm at 8x in the dark. What's the meaningful difference?
Re: 50mm vs 56 mm Help.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">50mm at 7x in the dark equals 56mm at 8x in the dark. What's the meaningful difference?</div></div>
A ~14% gain in resolution.
People tend to go screaming mad about low single digit differences in transmission percentage, but they just as often ignore that more magnification equals more resolution/detail recognition at equal brightness levels (same exit pupil), and especially in low light, magnification makes a bigger perceived difference when it comes to picking up detail than in daylight.
Of course, this comes with the customary disclaimer of "all else being equal", so if you compare different scopes, other properties of the image may outweigh these calculated differences within certain limits. Especially, high light transmission and big exip pupil may create a bright image, but if contrsat isn't there, you won't be able to see detail.
I found an interesting chart here showing the change of maximum pupil size with age, and also how big differences in max. pupil size may be within a group of people of the same age:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">50mm at 7x in the dark equals 56mm at 8x in the dark. What's the meaningful difference?</div></div>
A ~14% gain in resolution.
People tend to go screaming mad about low single digit differences in transmission percentage, but they just as often ignore that more magnification equals more resolution/detail recognition at equal brightness levels (same exit pupil), and especially in low light, magnification makes a bigger perceived difference when it comes to picking up detail than in daylight.
Of course, this comes with the customary disclaimer of "all else being equal", so if you compare different scopes, other properties of the image may outweigh these calculated differences within certain limits. Especially, high light transmission and big exip pupil may create a bright image, but if contrsat isn't there, you won't be able to see detail.
I found an interesting chart here showing the change of maximum pupil size with age, and also how big differences in max. pupil size may be within a group of people of the same age:
