• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

O

onlyfineknives

Sergeant
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 18, 2010
299
7
56
Clarksville, VA
Ok guys - I have a Tony Kidd 10/22 in a McMillan STC stock.

I was testing different ammos and different lots at 50yds and found that SK rifle match shot .15 to .30 groups at 50yds. I tried 4 different lots of Eley Tenex and the best lot ran around .25 to .40 so I thought I would order a case of the SK.

Before I did that I figured I better check the results at 100 to compare it to a 10 year old lot of Tenex that I only have 2 or 3 boxes left that shot sub half minute at 100 and shot several .30 5 shot groups.

When I shot at 100, the SK went to 1.0 to 1.5 inch groups and the 4 new lots of Tenex did about the same.

Can anyone help me with what's going on and also are their any suggestions as to my next step to figure how to get better groups at 100?

Thanks!
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

One thing I forgot to add.

My groups at 100 with the SK are mainly vertical and my ES is 15-17fps.

Thanks again!
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Don't know if this helps, but my .22's will shoot several cheaper brands of ammo well at 50 yards, but only the higher end ammo will group at 100. I guess when you double the distance; the inconsistencies in the cheaper ammo comes out.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Shooting closing than 50yd. (Yuk, yuk)
I have trouble shooting more than 50yd; it's windy it Texas.
I keep old targets on those good 100 yd Clark/Douglas 21 1/2 and CLE Douglas 18" PRS .22 has a groups with RWS Target,S&K Stardard, S&K Match.
These .4" to 50ys and to 100 when is quiet (rare).
I silhouette, so I shoot on bench often.

Free float?
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

I guess my main reason for higher expectations is because of the older Eley grouping consistently half minute or less at 100.

It just didn't make much sense to me that the SK was great at 50 and wasn't anywhere near as good at 100.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

That will definately happen. You may need to find your "100 yard" ammo. Seriously. For some reason when you cross the magic 75 yard line, sometimes you need to find the right ammo all over again.

With my 10/22 I am all over the 50 with Eley Match or RWS R50 or even the Orange box if I rimgauge it drilling 1 hole groups, but at 100 it likes Federal or RWS R100. With my 40X, it is consistant at 50 and 100... it is up to the gun and what it likes.

With that said, unless you are the aforementioned hardcore benchrest guy, a consistant 1-1.5" group at 100 points to you being a really good trigger man, especially with a 10/22. You'll hear talk of sub-MOA at 100 "all day long" but the guys that actually shoot know that is complete BS.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Have you tried using SS ammo? I might be totally off, but if your bullet is dropping through the sound barrier between 50 and 100 yards, you can expect instability and loss of group size.

Also, give Rimfire Central a try, I usually do not tout other boards within a board, but that one has more rimfire info than you would believe and oh yea tony does post there....
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Almost all .22LR Match ammo, including what he is using is subsonic. Most match ammo is between 1020 and 1080 FPS MV.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

The SK chronoed around 1030 so there's no issue with transonic disturbance.

It was interesting looking at RWS ammo that they have a new RWS100 made specifically for 100yd shooting vs their RWS50. I wonder what the difference in the formulation would be?
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

I don't think I have ever shot in the .3's at 100, but my "100" range is 110 yards.

Did you shoot at the same range with the early lot of Tenex as with the latter stuff? The reason I ask is that I find it is common for ranges to vary by as much as 20 yards (90 yards on the short end to 110 yards on the long end). That is a pretty big difference in distance.

It could also be that if you shot on different days, conditions were different enough.

It is not unusual to have different ammo shoot differently up-close versus at distance. I have some RWS R50 that I shot a box of and instantly ordered a half case of it. My test lot tied the best 5 X 5 I had ever shot.

When I got the ammo, I started shooting Smack the Smiley and burned through 3 targets before realizing that it just did not shoot well at 50 yards. I have switched back to Eley at 50 yards and use RWS at 100+.

Interestingly, I chronied the RWS and found that it was both faster than Eley and had about half as much velocity dispersion as Eley. That is why it did so great at 100. At 50, velocity dispersion just doesn't matter as much.

I know the frustration of running out of great ammo. I had some Tenex that came with my gun. It took me over a year to find a lot of ammo that shot as well as the ammo that came with my gun. I had about 4 boxes and shot right through it all in 2 weeks thinking I had the most accurate gun on earth. I did:), but the ammo certainly helped!
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

In the smallbore shooting crowd, it is a well accepted but not understood fact that ammo which groups well at 50 may not group well at 100. The Dewar match (as part of a 1600 smallbore aggregate) is shot at 100 yards. Those serious about winning test ammo at 100 yards for this reason.

Test until you find ammo that shoots in your rifle at 100 yards if you need it to be accurate at 100 yards. The answers as to why some shoots and some does not at 100 is secondary to finding ammo that shoots at 100, though through your experiences you may stumble across some answers.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

And of course let's never forget our old friend the wind. We all know how much affect the wind has at 100 and 200 yards with the .22 LR.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Test your ammo at the farthest distance you will be using. Yes you have to wait for a practically windless day or have access to one hell of a big wharehouse. All of it shoots at 50yds in a good gun and you can get most any gun to like a particular ammo at 50yds, which is why I have been known to be a bit harsh to 50yd group shooters. 50yds may tell you a bit about your gun but 200yds will tell you something about the ammo.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Knifes, Is your 10/22 glass or pillar bedded?

You mentioned that the groups at 100 were spread vertically from 1 to 1.5. Vertical stringing is often caused by lack of bedding.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of it shoots at 50yds in a good gun and you can get most any gun to like a particular ammo at 50yds, which is why I have been known to be a bit harsh to 50yd group shooters. 50yds may tell you a bit about your gun but 200yds will tell you something about the ammo.</div></div>

I used to think that and did all my testing at 100. It is wrong. One is not inherently better than the other. They are just different. If you are shooting matches at 50, use your ammo that is good at 50. If you are shooting matches at 100, use the ammo that is good at 100. It is just that simple.

If you think about it, short vs long distance being different makes sense. Most short range BR (CF) shooters throw charges while most long range (CF) shooters weigh. Why? It is faster to throw a charge and charge variation just doesn't matter at short distance.

At long distance, charge variation leads to velocity variation, which is very important if you are shooting 1,000 yards. On the other hand, BR shooters square case heads and turn necks whereas a lot of distance shooters will do without. I think concentricity makes a bigger difference at short range than long range.

Just a thought.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

The location I shoot at is a field so when I set up targets I always use a rangefinder to make sure I am exactly the same from the muzzle.

Also, I shot test groups at 100 with the old lot of tenex which were awesome before I shot the tests with the SK and the Tenex.

I tried to eliminate as many variables as possible. I have just come to the conclusion that the SK is a 50yd ammo and I'm going to have to search for something else for the 100+ shots.

I ordered test lots of RWS 100 and Lapua Midas+ today. I'll let you'all know next week how they turn out.

By the way to answer about the bedding. It is Supergrade Kidd Rifle built by Tony Kidd. Shoots awesome, I just have to find ammo that shoots like the old tenex lot I have. ( I have less of it every day now)
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of it shoots at 50yds in a good gun and you can get most any gun to like a particular ammo at 50yds, which is why I have been known to be a bit harsh to 50yd group shooters. 50yds may tell you a bit about your gun but 200yds will tell you something about the ammo.</div></div>

I used to think that and did all my testing at 100. It is wrong. One is not inherently better than the other. They are just different. If you are shooting matches at 50, use your ammo that is good at 50. If you are shooting matches at 100, use the ammo that is good at 100. It is just that simple.

If you think about it, short vs long distance being different makes sense. Most short range BR (CF) shooters throw charges while most long range (CF) shooters weigh. Why? It is faster to throw a charge and charge variation just doesn't matter at short distance.

At long distance, charge variation leads to velocity variation, which is very important if you are shooting 1,000 yards. On the other hand, BR shooters square case heads and turn necks whereas a lot of distance shooters will do without. I think concentricity makes a bigger difference at short range than long range.

Just a thought. </div></div>
If one match incorporates 5 different ranges of 57yd,112yds,163yds,210yds and 240yds would you use 5 different kinds of ammo?
I agree that if you are shooting a set distance in a match use the ammo that performs best at that distance, absolutely. If however you are shooting a tactical match that has various ranges you best stick with the best ammo accross the course and in that instance it better be the long distance stuff. I have not seen the ammo yet that performs at 200yds that isn't satisfactory at 50yds. If you used 2 or 3 different ammos on a course like I describe, unless they had the same lube you would end up being all over the place. I am talking steel shooting though, paper for score can be a nuther kettle of fish
smile.gif

Generally speaking all the ammo that I have tested at long range that performed very well ended up being very good at all ranges. Testing 22 ammo can be an ugly bucket of snakes especially if you don't pay attention to lot numbers. If Wolf shoots great in your gun today and doesn't tomorrow it did not all of a sudden quit liking Wolf. Check your numbers.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Lapua I have found is the most consistent at 50, 100, and 200 yards.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

You may want to give some Wolf Match Target a shot.
My all Kidd built likes it at both 50 and 100 yards.
Might be worth giving it a try just to see if it works well your gun too.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

I had the same problem. You will have to test lots and then weigh the rounds. I have seen over a 1.5 gr difference between rounds out of the same box. Just depends how crazy you want to get. FWIW sk worked best in my kidd.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If one match incorporates 5 different ranges of 57yd,112yds,163yds,210yds and 240yds would you use 5 different kinds of ammo?
</div></div>

I would actually use Eley in my case, which shoots better up close the reason being that it is only a step behind the RWS at 100 and 200. The RWS is two steps behind the Eley at 50 yards. So, for someone shooting at multiple ranges, they are going to have to test at multiple ranges. That is simply all there is to it. There aren't really any shortcuts... and one can't assume something about performance at a given range based on performance at another range.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

i was using cheap assed rem. subsonics at 50 yds, 10 of them would fit in a 40 cal hole, just as the 2X's + the cost ammo. at 100 they would "group" about 4.5" if lucky. they were the same POI at 50 as the wolf through my setup, so i used them as 50 yard ammo, and the wolf and sk at 100 and beyond. but then i'd have to run at least 7-10 rounds through to get the barrel lubed up with the wolf. i was using aguila rifle match (which is good shooting ammo for half the cost of wolf) but got 2 crappy bricks of ammo and no customer service from the company so once used up i'm never going back to that stuff.

anyway, 1" to 1.5" at 100 still isn't bad at all.

with the amount of drop i get from 50yds to 100yds (8.3", which equals my .308 165gr loads at 240yards), as long as i can get a 2.4" group or under with the .22lr, i'm somewhat satisfied as a "trainer" group.

don't get me wrong, i like 1.5" or less fromn the .22 at 100, but there are so many environmental factors that go into doing it consistantly that 2.5" or less is more practical at an outdoor range.

again, i've tried the different ammo at different ranges not only from an accuraccy standpoint, but an economical one too. IMO it gets a little crazy after awile sorting through all the different manufacterers, making sure you have enough of each for every range trip for every distance. in the long run, unless shooting serious matches, i think that stocking up on something that gives good or at least acceptable performance across all ranges is the best less confusing way to go.

i don't know if i'm just getting lazy, but pulling up dope cards for different ammos, setting zeroes on the scope, then adjusting for the different ammo, then remembering to go back to the original zero for a different ammo or distance - is getting pretty old. then running multiple rifles / optics - just too complicated anymore, at least for me. the next step is to buy a case of what works for me the best....wolf or sk (probably wolf) and run it whether it's 25 yards or 250 yards. 1 dope card for every season for each rifle sounds more enjoyable than what i've been doing in the past.

i have been using a mkii f pencil barrel to plink at short range and silhouette shooting using blazer ammo for economic reasons, and a mkii bv bull barrel with match ammo for 100+ (where performance enhancements really starts to count). but again i'll just purchase a large amount of "good stuff" that works well in both so i can set it and forget it, and try not to manage a 2 or even 3 manufacturer ammo supply.

like i said i just may be getting lazy.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RicosRevenge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Almost all .22LR Match ammo, including what he is using is subsonic. Most match ammo is between 1020 and 1080 FPS MV.</div></div>


Keep in mind that the sound barrier is not a constant, it is defined as 1,126 ft/s @ sea level, 68F and 0 humidity.

Also understand that using a suppressor, sub sonic ammo makes no noise at all leaving a rifle, standard ammo does indeed have a signature......
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Rico is right. Most match ammo is subsonic. 22lrgenerally comes in standard velocity, high velocity, and hyper velocity. Standard velocity is subsonic. The other two are not.

Rico, I have bought from Neil from ISS before, but it ends up being expensive buying in state because you pay both shipping and sales tax.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

best i ever got my 10/22 to shoot was .7 at 100 yards with eley 10x. that being said mine generally does 1-1.25. i generally dont shoot bench rest or bulseye, i shoot silhouette, so the pinpoint accuracy is not so much a must but is very nice. do your testing at 100 yards. my gun has had good results with the Aguila Gold Eagle Match Rifle round. try that
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rico, I have bought from Neil from ISS before, but it ends up being expensive buying in state because you pay both shipping and sales tax. </div></div>
I guess you need to come up and shoot sometime and you can save that whole "shipping" thing...
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

That would be my best bet. Nesikabay told me about an indoor 200 yard range that I could use to win the 200 yard "Clean Challenge."
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

I think consistent 1 1.5 inch groups is good for the 22lr. I shoot at 100yds or more 1 or 2 times a week and have been for the last year or so with 22lr. Occasionally ill shoot a few sub moa groups but not consistently. I usually average around 1.5 inches in good conditions.

In all honesty ive never seen anyone consistenly shoot moa or better at 100 yds with a 22lr, it only happens in a magical place called the internet. You know where guys with stock 10/22s and mark IIs shoot sub moa@100yds all day, which is oddly enough the same place that people shooting custom annies admit that shooting consistent sub moa at 100yds doesnt happen that often, imagine that.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

With my RWS R-50 at 110 yards, about 1 out of 5 of my groups are MOA or above. The average is .8 MOA. I would call that sub-MOA.

That is with a 40X worked on by a top smith. I don't own a 10/22 so I don't know how much worse a 10/22 will shoot.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Don't mess with anthony1 Carter... he is an expert. He will shoot circles around us with his .17 shooting 1/4" clothespins. You and I should just bow to his knowledge. I don't care if we do document and log every group we shoot... what we are logging isn't true.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Well... all I can say is that I know the feeling. People call BS on my results, then I will see people post 5X5's that average .5 MOA and I get curious about that... but how can I call BS when people are calling BS on me? I know I can beat MOA on average with a 22 at 100. But if sub-MOA means all groups must be sub-MOA, that is tougher. I do have some 5X5's with all sub-MOA groups, but that is not the norm.

Again, we are back to how one defines sub-MOA. Is it the best group ever shot? Is it the average? Is it the worst group in a 5X5 (e.g., all under X)?

At any rate, sub-MOA 5-shot groups from a 22LR are hardly rare. From a 10/22, I don't know.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Ok guys I have results - great ones at that!

I tried lots of Lapua Midas + and RWS 100 (which I didn't know is actually supersonic but specifically designed for 100 yd events).

The Lapua grouped from .50 to .80 with several groups with 4 into .35 or .40 with a flyer. Whether that was ammo, environment, or me I don't know.

The RWS 100 did almost as well at 100 with groups from .60 to .80 but they were extremely consistent.

I backed up to 190 yds ( 200 wasn't available because of the lay of the land)

I was pleasantly surprised to find the RWS grouped from 1.27 to 1.86 for 5, 5 shot groups.

The Midas + did well, but it ranged from 1.75 to 2.50.

So I think my long range ammo will be the lot of RWS 100. The only thing I will have to watch is that I have been told by several rimfire benchrest guys that the RWS is temperature sensative. I'll just have to keep an eye on it when it gets colder.

Thanks for all your help!
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

Those are great results at 190! That is probably good enough to clean the 200 yard target, something that I have been trying to do for a while. I am just on the verge but haven't quite done it yet.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

I have been amazed at the accuracy of the KIDD rifle. I had originally thought about having a high end bolt gun built, maybe even on a turbo action. But after this rifle is performing the way it is, I don't know that I could run anything else any better.

Now it's all practice with the wind. - The fun part.
 
Re: 50yds to 100 - way different results. Help!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: onlyfineknives</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Now it's all practice with the wind. - The fun part. </div></div>

Let the good times roll!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
10/22 - groups now opening up drastically between 90 and 95 yards?
Replies
5
Views
588
penguinofsleep
P
Coyote777
Lapua X-Act
Replies
10
Views
742
Lastsaint21
L
Topstrap
October Topstraps Rimfire Challenge Results
Replies
0
Views
244
Topstrap
Topstrap
S
Help Improving my ES
Replies
6
Views
202
RegionRat
R
Precision Quest
Might be losing it? This ever happen to you?
Replies
15
Views
876
Precision Quest
Precision Quest
Top Bottom
Back