5R vs 4 Groove Accuracy Poll

[jakelly]

In light of @padom’s pending accuracy test, I thought it would be fun and maybe useful to our vendors to start a poll.

Disclaimer: Please let this be done with a lighthearted attitude. We all know it’s an insignificant sample size, and none of the staff wants to see a cool thread turn embarrassing.

That said...
“Are you ready?..”
“Are you ready?..”
“Well, let’s get it on!”

 

[whatsupdoc]

I have a few Krieger barrels and they just shoot.

But my vote was most influenced by this.

On June 8th, 2013, Michael Stinnett shot a new world record, surpassing a group that held therecord for 40 years. 5 shots were fired at a distance of 100 yards. This record was shot at the North Texas Shooters Association NBRSA match in Denton, TX. That 5 shots were fired was verified by use of a moving backer, and the .0077 IN group size was an average of the measurements from multiple judges.

Barrel:	Krieger Barrel: 1-17 IN Twist
Cartridge:	.30 Stewart with BIB 114 grain Bullets, Lapua Brass
Powder:	Hodgdon H4198
Action:	Kelbly Panda "Speedy Shorty"
Stock:	Larson
Scope:	Leupold 45x Competition Scope
Scope Rings:	Kelbly single screw tall rings
Trigger:	Jewel
Gunsmith:	Ralph Stewart, himself a 200 yard, 5 target aggregate record holder
Barrel Tuner:	Custom made by Ralph Stewart, gunsmith.
Additional:	Farley front rest, Micro Fiber bags and Graham wind flags

 

[Defender3]

Why no Krieger 5R?

ETA - Just found the thread.

 

[XLR308]

I would say it's a wash, both will perform near identical if padom brings his A game.
May be a slight variation in charge weight for optimum load in each barrel of maybe .1 or .2 grains but don't expect a big difference otherwise.

 

[pmclaine]

You didnt have a Bartlein 4 groove option.

4 groove has my money assuming same process, material and both builders as skilled as the two mentioned.

 

[jakelly]

You didnt have a Bartlein 4 groove option.

4 groove has my money assuming same process, material and both builders as skilled as the two mentioned.

This is specific to @padom ’s test.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

In my mind, for what we do, either make is far more accurate than 99% of us.

Don’t think you’re more accurate than the other dozen makers you didn’t list either

 

[redneckbmxer24]

My money would be marginally on the Krieger if I had to pick one. Not because it’s 4 groove but because on average the Kriegers I’ve had (only a few on bolt guns and one on a AR) have been a little more accurate than most of the Bartleins I’ve had (a couple dozen). That’s not to say my Bartleins have been inaccurate, they’ve all been stupid accurate except for one that a smith jacked up, most have shot in the .2’s and .3’s on average.

It’s my opinion that the groove count has absolutely NOTHING to do with accuracy and I’ve owned 4 grooves and 5 grooves from a bunch of different manufacturers. The difference I’ve noticed is that the 4 grooves have all seemed to run a bit faster. Some of them really damn fast, especially a few of the Lothar AI barrels I’ve had.

I’m going to guess that both barrels are going to be within .05-.1moa average of one another which will likely just be luck of the draw and the Krieger is probably going to be 50-100fps faster with the same loads.

 

[Supersubes]

Your forgot the “groove number and style doesn’t mean shit” option. The barrel test will prove nothing, it will simply be a neat comparison of those(and only those) two barrels.

 

[pmclaine]

This is specific to @padom ’s test.

I get it.

And I appreciate what @padom is doing.

Im just saying my money is on 4 groove and I'd take one from either builder.

 

[swampbuck]

So I don't really understand what we are comparing hear. Rifling style or manufacturer? Both manufacturers make 4 and 5R groove rifling.

So if we are comparing manufacturers than why not compare a 4 groove vs 4 groove. Or 5R vs 5R from each


Or

If we are comparing 4 vs 5R rifling why not compare each from the same manufacturer.

4 vs 5R Bartlein. Or 4 vs 5r Krieger.

I have and will continue to use both. Krieger has been very good to me and I will continue to use them primarily for tactical or competition rifles. I have Bartlein on my hunting rifles mainly because Krieger doesn't make stainless below a #5 contour. I'm going to lean towards the K4 because Mike at Tac Ops and Terry Cross choose them. I know about the theory that opposite grooves and lands squish and deform the bullet but benchrest results favor the 4 despite a good sounding argument.

 

[Supersubes]

So I don't really understand what we are comparing hear. Rifling style or manufacturer? Both manufacturers make 4 and 5R groove rifling.

So if we are comparing manufacturers than why not compare a 4 groove vs 4 groove. Or 5R vs 5R from each


Or

If we are comparing 4 vs 5R rifling why not compare each from the same manufacturer.

4 vs 5R Bartlein. Or 4 vs 5r Krieger.

Do your own test then. This one is padom’s.

 

[swampbuck]

Just saying it's best to compare one thing at a time and remove variables when possible

 

[Supersubes]

Just saying it's best to compare one thing at a time and remove variables when possible

Nobody is stopping you.

 

[swampbuck]

Your are right. Maybe one day I will devote the time to doing so. Just food for thought in the mean time.

 

[jakelly]

So I don't really understand what we are comparing hear. Rifling style or manufacturer? Both manufacturers make 4 and 5R groove rifling.

So if we are comparing manufacturers than why not compare a 4 groove vs 4 groove. Or 5R vs 5R from each


Or

If we are comparing 4 vs 5R rifling why not compare each from the same manufacturer.

4 vs 5R Bartlein. Or 4 vs 5r Krieger.

C’mon man... A little bit of both. This is a fun evaluation of a statistically insignificant sample size. These are also probably the two most popular products within their respective companies as well as the industry as a whole. This a fair contest between the two most dominant flagships of the two most dominant brands.

 

[swampbuck]

Your right. But just like mentioning the insignificant sample size I thought it was worth mentioning. Go Krieger

 

[Steel head]

Your forgot the “groove number and style doesn’t mean shit” option. The barrel test will prove nothing, it will simply be a neat comparison of those(and only those) two barrels.

This!

 

[XLR308]

C’mon man... A little bit of both. This is a fun evaluation of a statistically insignificant sample size. These are also probably the two most popular products within their respective companies as well as the industry as a whole. This a fair contest between the two most dominant flagships of the two most dominant brands.

What can be added to either thread primarily this one and then padoms after he has completed his tests to avoid unneccesay chatter is all of the barrels of same chambering, twist rate and land to groove ratio that are floating around here by members.
That would add some additional info regarding powders used, optimal charge weights, velocity measurements and accuracy potential.
It would be interesting to see the data accross a wider spectrum of that sort.

 

[kthomas]

While I appreciate all the efforts by Padom and the donations made by our excellent industry members, with such a small sample size this test isn't really indicative of anything.

 

[jakelly]

Your forgot the “groove number and style doesn’t mean shit” option. The barrel test will prove nothing, it will simply be a neat comparison of those(and only those) two barrels.

The poll is which style do you think will win, not what the contest proves, or what we can deduce. It’s simple.

Btw- you don’t know that, “groove number and style doesn’t mean shit,” do you? That’s not a proven statement.

 

[Supersubes]

The poll is which style do you think will win, not what the contest proves, or what we can deduce. It’s simple.

Btw- you don’t know that, “groove number and style doesn’t mean shit,” do you? That’s not a proven statement.

Yes it is proven. We have world records from all the common land groove profiles Spanning decades, and an abundance from these two particular profiles. Way more data out there than will be gleaned from this test.

 

[jakelly]

Well, sure world records settle the science. Guess we can put that LH twist baby to bed, too.

 

[Supersubes]

Well, sure world records settle the science.

So this test including two barrels, shot with a bipod and rear bag, is gonna settle the science for you, where decades of long and short range BR with a scoring system and group sizes aren’t? Seems legit.

 

[jakelly]

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I have said nothing but the exact opposite. You’ve really got an axe to grind here. We get it, you think bore geometry means nothing. (Not that anyone thought this was gonna prove anything) Why don’t you just move on?

 

[Supersubes]

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I have said nothing but the exact opposite. You’ve really got an axe to grind here. We get it, you think bore geometry means nothing. (Not that anyone thought this was gonna prove anything) Why don’t you just move on?

Nice dodge. Also, nice edit on your previous post, as if that was relevant to any of this.

 

[jakelly]

In light of @padom’s pending accuracy test, I thought it would be fun and maybe useful to our vendors to start a poll.

Disclaimer: Please let this be done with a lighthearted attitude. We all know it’s an insignificant sample size, and none of the staff wants to see a cool thread turn embarrassing.

That said...
“Are you ready?..”
“Are you ready?..”
“Well, let’s get it on!”

C’mon man... A little bit of both. This is a fun evaluation of a statistically insignificant sample size. These are also probably the two most popular products within their respective companies as well as the industry as a whole. This a fair contest between the two most dominant flagships of the two most dominant brands.

I think it would be helpful if we could both take a breathalyzer about now.

 

[Supersubes]

I think it would be helpful if we could both take a breathalyzer about now.

I havent even begun to drink, but fair enough.

 

[jakelly]

Bump.